|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
"There is a constant sense of hand-wringing in this town when it comes to getting anything done," he said. "We can't stand pat and say we're going to have another 40 years of a system that doesn't work."
Amen. We need to have the next 40 years with a system that works worse and costs more.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887 |
Quote:
While I don't agree with this current rev. of health care reform... the system is broke. I think most agree on that. With that being said I found this reference to Obama and him passing any health care reform while in office, to be very uncool and really a sign of the times.
"If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him.",South Carolina Sen. Jim DeMint
Somebody has to stop him - because if he gets what he wants, he'll kill this country.
Stop and think about it.
At some point in time - and it may be near - the majority of the people are going to say "hey, I'm tired of paying for others".
Why is health care such a huge crisis now, all of a sudden?
What about gov't. spending? Congress needs to cut back, not increase. I mean, free health care for all is great. We may as well add in free housing for all. And free food for all. After all,aren't those things guaranteed in the constitution? 
And really, it's only the "rich" that have to pay, right? We can all ride on the backs of the "rich". (hold on, before you know it, anyone with a job will be considered "rich").
Lastly, as part of any national health care reform, congress should HAVE to abide by it. Until congress gets the same treatment as me, I'm not for it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 323
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 323 |
extrapolate the income level a few years....
if i dont have to pay tax on obamacare, then there's incentive to go to that plan. that removes my tax income to the system, as well as adds another name to the roles.
what happens when those of us lucky enough to have an employer provided plan decide we dont want to pay those taxes anymore? then where's the money gonna come from?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305 |
I can't sit here and defend the Obama plan, or should I say, what little I know of it. (by the way, hardly nobody knows enough to really critique it, yet we have lots of folks talking as if they do) Quote:
At some point in time - and it may be near - the majority of the people are going to say "hey, I'm tired of paying for others".
I can't speak for you, but I'm already paying for others,,, My premiums for Health Insurance are through the roof (1300 per month) and the deductables are maddening (6k per year)
Part of the reason (not all of it) that my premiums are high stem from health issues I've had to face and my age (57) and part of it is to cover the cost of healthcare for those without insurance that providers pass on through increased service costs.
Believe me, someone is paying for the uninsured already. Any bets as to who that is?
Quote:
Why is health care such a huge crisis now, all of a sudden?
It's not new, not even close to new. It's been discussed for 30+ years that where we are today is where we've been heading.
Nobody could get anything done to stem the tide earlier. Carter talked about it a little, Reagan discussed it, Bush 41 had mentioned it in speeches, Clinton put his wife in charge of getting healthcare reform done but failed, Bush 43, unfortunately, he had his hands full and I don't think he ever had a moment free to get into it.
Reasonable people can agree that having uninsured people is a burden on society as a whole. But which burden is worse? The one where we pay for the uninsured through expensive premiums and services, or the one that comes from our tax dollars.. Either way, it's a burden. Which do you want?
I want those that get big company sponsored healthcare to learn to live like I do,, pay thier own premiums out of thier own pockets each month... I wanna see how long it takes them to understand that something isn't right.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
Quote:
(by the way, hardly nobody knows enough to really critique it, yet we have lots of folks talking as if they do)
No I disagree I think they are criticizing the parts that they do know and have been made aware of....And really I have to wonder if Obama even knows the entire package...is there any one person on this earth that knows the entire package???
There could be a ton of good in the package...but these things that have been criticized undo all of that and make it null and void. It is not worth passing with these provisions......
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
...is there any one person on this earth that knows the entire package???
The cats who are poised to make lots of money on it know every comma and period.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,177
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,177 |
Quote:
I want those that get big company sponsored healthcare to learn to live like I do,, pay thier own premiums out of thier own pockets each month... I wanna see how long it takes them to understand that something isn't right.
Do you honestly think that healthcare benefits aren't figured into wages of those that work for a company? We're seeing the crap just as much as you are. Our healthcare gets trimmed every year, copays are increased and wages stagnate due to benefit costs. It's not like it's a free handout unaffected by the failures of the system. At least you have the option to shop for the best deal....we have to take what they give us.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Our healthcare gets trimmed every year, copays are increased and wages stagnate due to benefit costs.
It gets trimmed due to the fact that maximum profit needs to increase every year.
And that's not just a health care thing. It's the mentality that continues to bury us.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
I want those that get big company sponsored healthcare to learn to live like I do,, pay thier own premiums out of thier own pockets each month... I wanna see how long it takes them to understand that something isn't right.
And I want those who I'm paying for that won't get a job or won't cut other expenses to make health insurance a priority to live like I do... go to work 55 hours a week, get an education so you have some job choices, stop living off the hard work of others...
You want to talk about something that's not right?
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363 |
Quote:
It gets trimmed due to the fact that maximum profit needs to increase every year.
And that's not just a health care thing. It's the mentality that continues to bury us.
Wow I actually agree with you, I guess anything can happen once 
I wonder how many people understand that when a large corporation says it has a loss, it usually means they still made money, but maybe not as much as the previous year or a projected amount for that year.
The one thing I think many overlook about this whole debacle, is that there isn't a lack of quality health care. And people are not turned away from treatment, as the politicians would have you believe.
If you go to a hospital needing care you get it no matter who you are, it is a law. The payment part comes afterwords.
The problem is the COST, not the availability. Those pushing this plan try to say there is no availability for some, which is BS. It's the ability to pay that is the problem.
Obama says that if this plan is done people won't use the ER as a doctors office. But the reality is, those who do this are the ones who already get free healthcare. Medicaid and welfare. So if you put millions more on those roles why wouldn't they do the same. The reasoning is foolish.
I believe Obama is clueless. I really feel everything he has done so far has been for his personal pleasure. He is very egotistical, and the way he speaks with arrogance when things don't go his way, shows it is all about him. He has got to see what his policies are doing. I believe that if he really cared about anybody but himself, things would be different. IMO he's a joke, and more and more people seem to be seeing it.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887 |
Quote:
I can't sit here and defend the Obama plan, or should I say, what little I know of it. (by the way, hardly nobody knows enough to really critique it, yet we have lots of folks talking as if they do)
Quote:
At some point in time - and it may be near - the majority of the people are going to say "hey, I'm tired of paying for others".
I can't speak for you, but I'm already paying for others,,, My premiums for Health Insurance are through the roof (1300 per month) and the deductables are maddening (6k per year)
Yeah, we pay as well. See how that works? We pay for what we get, and we pay for those that don't have insurance. At least those of us that pay have choices now - if this passes, we won't, and we'll still be paying for others. Paying more, I might add - for less. If that's what you want, fine. It's not what I want. There are some places that place a benefit of treatment vs. cost effectiveness of treatment on health care, i.e. "you're 65 and need a heart? Sorry, it's not cost effective for you to get a heart. Here's some pills - thanks for playing".
Is that what you want?
Quote:
Part of the reason (not all of it) that my premiums are high stem from health issues I've had to face and my age (57) and part of it is to cover the cost of healthcare for those without insurance that providers pass on through increased service costs.
Oh, so you already pay for the people that don't have insurance. Got it. So do I. But "part" or your premium is due to current health issues? Hello - what you want is for others to subsidize you, is that right? Here's a fact for you: IF this passes, your premiums may go down. But your taxes will increase more than enough to offset that - and you'll be stuck with gov't. run health care. Ever been to a license bureau?
Quote:
Believe me, someone is paying for the uninsured already. Any bets as to who that is?
Quote:
Why is health care such a huge crisis now, all of a sudden?
It's not new, not even close to new. It's been discussed for 30+ years that where we are today is where we've been heading.
So why does uh O have to have this done now or never? Why the big rush? Why can't someone sit down and figure out something better, and do it in 50 pages or less? Why do we need a 1000 + page bill, that includes eliminating the opportunity to get your own insurance?
Quote:
I want those that get big company sponsored healthcare to learn to live like I do,, pay thier own premiums out of thier own pockets each month... I wanna see how long it takes them to understand that something isn't right.
That's what you want? Fine with me. My wife and I get "big company" health care. Take it away, and give us the difference in increased salary. Works for me. (oh, with our "big company" health benefits we also get the privilege of a $5,000 deductible, so it's not like you're the only one that pays bud).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887 |
Quote:
Quote:
Our healthcare gets trimmed every year, copays are increased and wages stagnate due to benefit costs.
It gets trimmed due to the fact that maximum profit needs to increase every year.
And that's not just a health care thing. It's the mentality that continues to bury us.
While you may have a small point - the bigger issue is the "entitlement" atmosphere that is rampant in this country. THAT, my friend, is what is burying us.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,102
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,102 |
I not excited about any change to a national health plan. Still I'm glad they're talking about it. I think without holding some sort of hammer over the AMA's head we might as well just bend over and allow them to do as they please - if you know what I mean. Look at oil and what they did knowing the last adminstration wasn't going to lift a finger of concern over $4.00+ a gallon gas prices - other than to further expand and fill the oil reserve.
So I don't want change, but I believe the talk of it is healthy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683 |
Talking about it is one thing. Cramming deadlines down the senate and house's respective throats is a different issue all together. The current situation is not a debate, it's an agenda. The current administration wants this done before there is any chance of them losing the voting edge.
Personally, I think the currently proposed plan is short sighted, one sided and dangerous. Once (hopefully if) it passes, it will be a nightmare to stop.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887 |
Quote:
Look at oil and what they did knowing the last adminstration wasn't going to lift a finger of concern over $4.00+ a gallon gas prices - other than to further expand and fill the oil reserve.
Dear Lord - some people will never get it, will they. You think the last administration was at fault for the $4.00 gasoline? The cost of crude had nothing to do with it? The demand had nothing to do with it? Unbelievable. Blows my mind that some people are so narrow minded and ignorant of facts.
Look at the global demand then vs. now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305 |
Quote:
Do you honestly think that healthcare benefits aren't figured into wages of those that work for a company?
I've been in the employment field for 35 years, do you honestly think I don't already know that.. By the way, that's not at all what I was talking about.
You have people that are screaming about the plan that Obama wants,, but I would bet you that most are on company sponsored plans and have no freakin idea what health care really costs.
I would venture a guess that some think its only what is taken out of thier checks each month coupled with co pays and deductables.. little do they know that it's much more than that.
I'm really lucky when you think about it. I control my own destiny with benefits to a degree. But it costs me a hell of a lot of money to be that lucky.
I'll be even luckier if my wife can jump on benefits from her BIG COMPANY employer next month and take me along..
Our costs out of pocket will drop from 1300 per month to about 303 per month.. and our deductable will drop from 3000 apiece (total 6k) to 500 apiece. And the benefits are pretty equal after that except her plan will offer us dental and vision.. our current plan doesn't have those options.
Just as an example of true costs that an employee rarely sees, the paperwork from her employer explains that if she should leave the job for any reason such as layoff, termination, resignation, she can receive COBRA for up to 18 months.
Now, just to compare, if she's employed, the cost is 303 per month. On COBRA, it jumps to 895 a month. For those that don't understand it, the difference (minus about 3%) is what the employer pays.
THAT is what I was speaking about.
Quote:
Our healthcare gets trimmed every year, copays are increased and wages stagnate due to benefit costs
I'd still rather have an employer sponsered plan.. and if needed, I'll go out and get supplimental insurance. it would still be cheaper than I pay now.
Quote:
It's not like it's a free handout unaffected by the failures of the system.
Not a free handout, I agree with you there... there ain't no free lunch, that's for damn sure. But what you pay is indeed affected by the failures and flaws in the ENTIRE system.
Quote:
At least you have the option to shop for the best deal....we have to take what they give us.
Wonderful, and the best deal I could find was 1300 a month and 6000 deductable.. do some math here, that's 21,600 out of my pocket before I see one penny from the insurance company... Such a deal I get right?
and as for you having to take what you get,, That's true to some extent. well it is and it isn't., you could always refuse the benefits, negotiate a higher wage and go on the open market and get your own like I do.. But believe me, that isn't exactly a dream either. Unless you are young and in great health. If you are, then you can get it easily.
The trouble with that is that the money you currently pay for benefits as a payroll deduction is pretax dollars. You have the benefit of getting taxed on a lower amount of income and the effect is, that extra money that you aren't being taxed on is like a bonus almost.
If you have to shop for benefits and buy them on your own, you are paying for them with after tax dollars. Granted you can probably deduct them if you earn enough to do that. I'd check with an accountant before trying that one.
But let me ask you all this question,, how many of you would be willing to pay into a plan that is similar to what our senators and congressmen get?
Right now, they have about the best plan available. What if your Employers were allowed to solicit bids from the government for that plan..
My guess is two things would happen,,
1. the current crop of insurance vendors would scream bloody murder because they'd not be able to compete AND continue to make the big bucks...
2. We'd have a more universal healthcare program that wouldn't change how the hospitals and doctors operate (like in canada for instance).
Anyone ever hear of a senator or congressmen needing help with healthcare bills or insurance? yeah, neither have I.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887 |
You do understand that - with the bill as it is currently - you would not be able to get a supplemental insurance policy, right?
You do understand that, as the bill currently is, you can only keep the insurance you have - you cannot at any time in the future switch insurance unless you go to the national insurance, right?
You do understand, under the bill as it currently is - your options are: keep what you have, never allowed to make a change, OR go with the national plan, right?
You know, the national plan that people like you and I will be forced to pay for. The national plan that congress conveniently let themselves out of. The national plan, that will get the "45 million" un insured insured, right? The "45 million" of which some estimate 10 million uninsured are illegals, some 20 million are eligible but have not filed for medicare/medicaid, or some other current gov't. program, and the roughly 5 to 10 million that make enough to get their own insurance but choose not to, right?
That's roughly 35 to 40 million people that have the opportunity and/or ability to get insurance, but for some reason haven't. So this whole thing is about forcing everyone else to pay for 6 to 10 million people to get insurance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887 |
And actually, it's not about getting everyone else to pay - it's about soaking the "rich" yet again. Hell, they can afford it, right? After all, in the constitution it says something about the right to free health care on the backs of others, doesn't it? And it says the "rich" should pay for it all, right?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
The one thing I think many overlook about this whole debacle, is that there isn't a lack of quality health care. And people are not turned away from treatment, as the politicians would have you believe.
If you go to a hospital needing care you get it no matter who you are, it is a law. The payment part comes afterwords.
The problem is the COST, not the availability. Those pushing this plan try to say there is no availability for some, which is BS. It's the ability to pay that is the problem.
I agree with you 99%.
The only issue I have with your post is the word 'quality'...there are many people who do not receive the best care they could in the name of the bottom line.
There is care for everyone, yes. Quality care comes at a price. If you can afford it, wonderful. If you don't have so much money, you will receive that care and pay for it the rest of your life monetarily...if you're desolate...you will get sent to the foot choppers and Dr. Nick's of the world.
Good post.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Our healthcare gets trimmed every year, copays are increased and wages stagnate due to benefit costs.
It gets trimmed due to the fact that maximum profit needs to increase every year.
And that's not just a health care thing. It's the mentality that continues to bury us.
While you may have a small point - the bigger issue is the "entitlement" atmosphere that is rampant in this country. THAT, my friend, is what is burying us.
I would say that equates into the 'entitlement' atmosphere you speak of...everyone feels they're somehow entitled to/deserving of bigger and better profits every year, which results in corporations and CEO's bending over backwards to spike those profits, regardless of the fact that it may be detrimental.
The days of steady gains ended long ago...now if the numbers aren't going up every year, the shareholders cry foul. We feel entitled to make as much as we can, regardless of whether or not we're contributing value to society...that goes from the rich down to the poor.
'Entitlement' is a multi-faceted word...for some reason, we as a nation feel that we're 'entitled' to invade any nation we want. I would call that a big detriment as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887 |
Take that and apply it to the "lowly" worker - the guy/gal that thinks they are entitled to a raise every year, regardless of how the company is doing.
The entitlement attitude is a curse this country won't surface from - then add in the gov't. thinking they can fix everything with more taxes, and what do you have? Well, you'll see in 3 to 6 years what it leads to.
Sorry - I don't see businesses that want to make a profit as the problem - I see the workers that demand more and more and more and gov't. that takes more and more and more as the problem.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Sorry - I don't see businesses that want to make a profit as the problem - I see the workers that demand more and more and more and gov't. that takes more and more and more as the problem.
So you're calling it a one-sided coin? The CEO who feels 'entitled' to a seven figure bonus doesn't fit the bill? Just the lowly worker who wants a raise?
The business wanting to make a profit is not the problem, but the employee who wants to make a profit is?
Two sides to the coin...
Let's not forget that the 14th Amendment made corporations people...so in essence, as far as the law is concerned...their quest for ever-increasing profits isn't much difference than a man asking for a raise. That lowly worker or that company don't really care if they're worth it -- they just want it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,887 |
Ok. Whatever. You have to remember, if the business isn't making money - it's going out of business. These big cheeses you seem to hate - they are the top of the business - they ought to make money, don't you think? Take GM for example - before the bailout stuff - do you honestly think the 50 top people in that company hurt its financial position? Or is it possible that the fact they couldn't lay off an employee without paying them 95% of their wages hurt the company?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Ok. Whatever. You have to remember, if the business isn't making money - it's going out of business.
And that differs from a person how?
Quote:
These big cheeses you seem to hate - they are the top of the business - they ought to make money, don't you think?
Perhaps I should turn this around and say 'the lowly guys you seem to hate'?
If you want to rant about entitlement...it's a two-way street. You seem to want to narrow your focus until it fits your view.
Quote:
Take GM for example - before the bailout stuff - do you honestly think the 50 top people in that company hurt its financial position?
Absolutely, I do. It's their job to run the company isn't it? The buck stops at the top, bro.
Flip the coin...when GM was doing well with their numbers, would you say that it was the lowly employees that was making it happen? Doubtful.
I don't want to get in a class war here...but from the picture you paint, when a business or a 'big cheese' as you call it goes all out to attain maximum profit...well, that's only natural. But when a 'lowly worker' - to use your term - goes after the same thing, they're whining for something they don't deserve?
Once again...two sides to the coin.
On the issue of class I will say this -- it's most definitely the 'big cheeses' that have put us in the mess we're in...not the lowly worker. I'm not trying to paint a sinner-saint portrait here...but to believe that the bottom rung is the drawback...that's just propaganda. In the end, it's unrepentant greed that's taking us down...and greed doesn't rise or fall depending on class...everybody wants their slice.
But the people who have the power are the ones who did the damage...and make no mistake -- if the 'lowly worker' was in that chair, they'd do the same.
But for some reason you seem to feel that one class is 'entitled' to pursue senseless greed more than another is...and you're wrong there.
I don't disagree with your premise...but I disagree with your narrow focus.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089 |
Quote:
Wonderful, and the best deal I could find was 1300 a month and 6000 deductable.. do some math here, that's 21,600 out of my pocket before I see one penny from the insurance company... Such a deal I get right?
1300 a month for health coverage? Sweet fancy Moses....
Granted I didn't read all 7 pages of this post but has anyone taken a salary and run the numbers on what take home would be in Canada vs the US? Random state/province....maybe put em close together..like Ontario and New York.
The public healthcare system has some definite faults and is in trouble due to the mass amount of baby boomers getting older, but it sounds like the private system is having similar problems.
I'll be the first to say that there's definite problems with public healthcare that need to be fixed but I am damn glad its there so that if something catastrophic happens to me, my girlfriend or my daughter, that we will not be in financial ruin because of it.
I'll take a look at tax burdens in US vs Canada....I've always been curious what I'd take home in the US anyways.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089 |
Dunno if I missed something but comparing New York vs Ontario
Given a single person making 75,000.
New York take home after taxes- 59,907
Ontario take home after taxes- 57,541
Not sure if anyone can confirm the plausibility of the NY number or not.
However, if those numbers are the right ballpark, would it be worth 2400 a year in extra taxes to get health care?
Of course, to make it completely accurate, we'd have to equalize what taxes include in both places, sales taxes, hell, even the budgets of the respective countries..... but speaking in ballparks here, doesn't this look like it make make financial sense to individuals?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,102
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,102 |
Quote:
Dear Lord - some people will never get it, will they. You think the last administration was at fault for the $4.00 gasoline? The cost of crude had nothing to do with it? The demand had nothing to do with it? Unbelievable. Blows my mind that some people are so narrow minded and ignorant of facts.
Look at the global demand then vs. now.
I believe you are clearly misguided and suggest you look at the money that was being poured into future contracts. The fuel for the skyrocketing prices wasn't from any lack of oil but rather resulted on wild speculation in oil futures. "When money has nowhere to go, it is parked in commodities, as this is one of the few investment instruments that actually rises the more money you pour into it." —Oliver Jakob, an analyst at Petromatrix in Switzerland.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305 |
Quote:
You do understand that
No,, as I said earlier on, I admit to not KNOWING everything about the plan that the Dems and Obama are pushing. I'm not sure you have it right either because so little of the actual proposal has been published.
You know how it is,, someone loads a bunch of stuff into a bill, then stuff gets cut to reach a compromise.
As far as I know, there isn't a complete picture of the bill available for the public to read... just pieces and parts put out by both those that oppose it and those that endorse it.
Have seen the entire bill?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305 |
I think you were quoting Me not Arch on this Canada... Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wonderful, and the best deal I could find was 1300 a month and 6000 deductable.. do some math here, that's 21,600 out of my pocket before I see one penny from the insurance company... Such a deal I get right?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1300 a month for health coverage? Sweet fancy Moses....
I bet there are some that think I'm pulling thier leg on this,, Canada, I'll be glad to fax the bill to you so you can see it and then tell everyone that I'm not lying to them.... If you want, just pm me your fax number and I'll do that.
yeah, 1300 a month is what I pay at this moment in time. last year it was 1223 per month and went up in June of 09. Worse yet, we have a 3000 deductable per person, for my wife and I, that's 6k before we see benefit.
it's insane, the only way it works out in my favor is if I have a serious illness of some major surgery like my wife did last year.. (hip replacement).. we actually made out on the deal last year.. That surgery alone coupled with all the pre and post operative care came to between 80k and 100k..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,229
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,229 |
Quote:
the only way it works out in my favor is if
That sounds like car insurance, life insurance, home insurance, renter's insurance - or any other insurance that you can imagine or have ever paid into.
The premiums are significantly higher for health insurance because the probabilities of payout, and the amounts routinely paid out, are significantly higher.
If it was always working out in everyone's favor (e.g. you get dollar for dollar value, or get more back than you pay in), the insurance companies would be bankrupted and cease to exist.... which the more I view what is happening, the more I think that that is what the goal of all of this is.
They either can't or won't address tort reform or medical billing practices, so they are "reforming health care" by taking control of the medical insurance industry. On that thought, I wouldn't be surprised to see doctor's malpractice insurance get rolled into and taken over in all of this as well.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305 |
Quote:
That sounds like car insurance, life insurance, home insurance, renter's insurance - or any other insurance that you can imagine or have ever paid into
LOL,, true enough,, the only way I win on Life insurance is to die, collect and then come back to life 
I get your drift Purp,, but the point of my comment wasn't so much to point out the win/loss (although I did that to an extreme I guess), my real point was the cost of insurance.
21,600 has to come out of my pocket before I see anything from them... I bet your plan sponsored by your employer doesn't cost that much with deductables included. when I say that, I mean both the part of the premium that comes out of your check and the part your employer pays combined with the deductables.
I'd probably love to have the same coverage you have at the total cost that you and your employer pay. My guess is that it would save me 400 to 500 a month in premiums with lower deductables as well.
I'm sure that at your company, there is at least 1 person that is my age and maybe some that have had some surgery or illness that would make them a risk like I am, yet they pay what you pay..
My problem would be solved if I could join an association of some kind to gain access to group rates. The best I've found is my local Chamber of commerce in Aurora. I joined them, paid 145 bucks to joined, and when I got the insurance, I got a discount for beng a chamber member.. the Chamber fee was more than the discount...LOL
Really a great deal there don't you think.
Your employer gets the deal it gets because it has a number of employees to cover. They are required by every insurance company I've dealt with to pay at least 25% of the premium. Most pay more until they can't afford it that is.
Then they pass more off to the employee or reduce the benefits somewhat to offset the increased cost.
I can't do any of that.. I"m stuck because being that I only cover two people, I have no bargaing power.. I can moan about it, but it doesn't matter at all.
Quote:
They either can't or won't address tort reform or medical billing practices, so they are "reforming health care" by taking control of the medical insurance industry. On that thought, I wouldn't be surprised to see doctor's malpractice insurance get rolled into and taken over in all of this as well.
In one respect, I want to see tort reform. I was watching some TV News program yesterday and they had a doctor on saying his income has dropped 49% since 1999, he attributed a great deal of that drop to several factors, one of them being the 150% increase in malepractice insurance premiums which is a result of litigation.
So, tort reform needs addressed.. we agree on that. But the legal profession has a very strong lobby in washington, you can bet that for many elected officials, messing with tort reform isn't in thier best interest. That isn't just one side of the isle or the other, that's on both.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Dunno if I missed something but comparing New York vs Ontario
Given a single person making 75,000.
New York take home after taxes- 59,907
Ontario take home after taxes- 57,541
Not sure if anyone can confirm the plausibility of the NY number or not.
However, if those numbers are the right ballpark, would it be worth 2400 a year in extra taxes to get health care?
Of course, to make it completely accurate, we'd have to equalize what taxes include in both places, sales taxes, hell, even the budgets of the respective countries..... but speaking in ballparks here, doesn't this look like it make make financial sense to individuals?
I seriously doubt that a single person in NY is only paying about 20% in taxes...
Second, comparing Ontario to New York, then extrapolating that over the rest of the country isn't really fair. New York has extremely high taxes and while, maybe it does make sense in NY, it might not make sense in another 45 of the 50 states....
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
The one thing I think many overlook about this whole debacle, is that there isn't a lack of quality health care. And people are not turned away from treatment, as the politicians would have you believe.
If you go to a hospital needing care you get it no matter who you are, it is a law. The payment part comes afterwords.
The problem is the COST, not the availability. Those pushing this plan try to say there is no availability for some, which is BS. It's the ability to pay that is the problem.
Which is why I think the direction to go would be free government run clinics. But then they get labeled as "not as good" as those with insurance that go to hospitals. The clinics don't even need to be hospitals, but ERs and places for the non-insured to go with a cold or flu or whatever. This would give them care without breaking the bank. And free up the ERs for those with real emergencies.
And it doesn't infringe on the private insurers doing business. But it provides basic free care for those in need. And while it would of course take tax dollars to run, it would be no where near the amount this bill is requesting.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 |
Obama Admits He’s “Not Familiar” With House Bill With the public’s trust in his handling of health care tanking (50%-44% of Americans disapprove), the White House has launched a new phase of its strategy designed to pass Obamacare: all Obama, all the time. As part of that effort, Obama hosted a conference call with leftist bloggers urging them to pressure Congress to pass his health plan as soon as possible. During the call, a blogger from Maine said he kept running into an Investors Business Daily article that claimed Section 102 of the House health legislation would outlaw private insurance. He asked: “Is this true? Will people be able to keep their insurance and will insurers be able to write new policies even though H.R. 3200 is passed?” President Obama replied: “You know, I have to say that I am not familiar with the provision you are talking about." This is a truly disturbing admission by the President, especially considering that later in the call, Obama promises yet again: “If you have health insurance, and you like it, and you have a doctor that you like, then you can keep it. Period.” How can Obama keep making this promise if he is not familiar with the health legislation that is being written in Congress? Details matter. We are familiar with the passage IBD sites, and as we wrote last week, the House bill does not outright outlaw private individual health insurance, but it does effectively regulate it out of existence. The House bill does allow private insurance to be sold, but only “Exchange-participating health benefits plans.” In order to qualify as an ?Exchange-participating health benefits plan,? all health insurance plans must conform to a slew of new regulations, including community rating and guaranteed issue. These will all send the cost of private individual health insurance skyrocketing. Furthermore, all these new regulations would not apply just to individual insurance plans, but to all insurance plans. So the House bill will also drive up the cost of your existing employer coverage as well. Until, of course, it becomes so expensive that your company makes the perfectly economical decision to dump you into the government plan. President Obama may not care to study how many people will lose their current health insurance if his plan becomes law, but like most Americans, we do. That is why we partnered with the Lewin Group to study how many Americans would be forced into the government “option” under the House health plan. Here is what we found: Approximately 103 million people would be covered under the new public plan and, as a consequence, about 83.4 million people would lose their private insurance. This would represent a 48.4 percent reduction in the number of people with private coverage. About 88.1 million workers would see their current private, employer-sponsored health plan go away and would be shifted to the public plan. Yearly premiums for the typical American with private coverage could go up by as much as $460 per privately-insured person, as a result of increased cost-shifting stemming from a public plan modeled on Medicare. It is truly frightening that the President of the United States is pressuring Congress in an all-out media blitz to pass legislation that he flatly admits he has not read and is not familiar with. President Obama owes it to the American people to stop making promises about what his health plan will or will not do until he has read it, and can properly defend it in public, to his own supporters. web page
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 449
1st String
|
|
OP
1st String
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 449 |
Can I have some more of that change, please? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,305 |
I really don't know if that's the answer either...
For me, all I want is a way to get compariable rates for Health Insurance. I get killed whereas if I worked for a bigger company, I and my employer would pay less for me and my wife than I am forced to pay now.
But I know that doesn't solve the overall problem, just mine and others in my situation.
So if we, as a nation had an alternative to go to, I think it would tend to drive up competition and cause current insurance companies to get competitive on rates and coverages.
As for the 45 or so Million Americans that are currently uninsured, so many folks are complaining about this new plan causing the Haves to pay for the havenots... well, I hate to break it to you all, but we're doing that now in the form of higher insurance rates caused by increased costs for actual care spurred by the number of folks that get free care.
So if people feel we aren't already paying, they are mistaken.
I can't help believing that taking control and dealing with the problem is better than burying our heads in the sand in hopes it will just go away... it won't. it's done nothing but get worse over the last 30 years.. Not addressing it, will only make it worse.
I won't lie to you, I don't know the answer either, but I know that doing nothing is idiotic.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955 |
Sure. See my signature. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 449
1st String
|
|
OP
1st String
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 449 |
As you said, you don't know the answer.
And I appreciate answers like that. I wish our governemnt would say it too. Instead, they say the only aswer is government healthcare.
My personal stance is this...
Lets get back to what our government was supposed to be. The Federal Government being the watch dog to make sure the State Governments do not violate the Constitution or Bill of Rights. And let the individual states (by citizen votes) decide if they want a private or government healthcare system. Than people could have a choice by deciding on what state they want to live in. Eventually, what would happen is we'd either see what system is better in America or see that both along side each other would work in America. It would also give the States back their own power that the Federal Government has taking away.
And although I'm not for government regulations as a whole...it might be time for a temporary legislation with a written in expiration date that could help control the prices of medical costs. After the temporary legislation expires, maybe we will have a more solid answer to ours problems or maybe it will have worked itself out. I agree something does need to be done, but I don't agree with the current method. Unfortunately, like you, I don't have an answer myself. Just an idea that I think would work.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
How much are you paying, I found comparable health insurance on my own for around $300/mo, when I went to see if I could do it cheaper than my company plan. I currently pay just under $200/mo and have a 5k deductible, for my company plan for just my wife and I.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Health Insurance "Haves" to pay
for "Have Nots"?
|
|
