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The Federal Government being the watch dog to make sure the State Governments do not violate the Constitution or Bill of Rights. And let the individual states (by citizen votes) decide if they want a private or government healthcare system
that actually might be a better answer given that trying to set up one plan for all people across all states may just be too damn daunting of a task..
So state by state might work better. Don't know for sure however. But it's something that could be explored.
#GMSTRONG
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How much are you paying, I found comparable health insurance on my own for around $300/mo, when I went to see if I could do it cheaper than my company plan. I currently pay just under $200/mo and have a 5k deductible, for my company plan for just my wife and I.
Comparable to what? My plan? You don't even know what my plan is if that's what you are referring too.
Couple of things to consider, I've had Cancer and and a Triple A... My wife has had serious back issues and a hip replacement and allergies.
In addition we are both 57 years old and she's a smoker (I'm not thank goodness, I quit 3 years ago come november)
And it appears we are in different states.
now, if you and your wife are roughly our age, have had similar health issues and you are only paying the amount you are paying, then either I'm getting ripped off or you don't have anywhere near as comprehensive a plan as I do or your on a company sponsored plan.
After we use our deductable, we literally pay for nothing. not even a co pay for office visits, no co pay on prescriptions, nothing out of pocket after the deductable is met..
Also, your deductable, is it 5k for both of you (meaning 2500 per) or is it 5k apiece for a total of 10,000?
Another thing that you don't make clear, are you currently employed by a company or are you self employed. that makes a HUGE difference.
Also, if your self employed, how many employees are on the plan. That makes a hell of a difference also.
So, bottom line, I'm guessing that either you are employed by a company and thus receive a company sponsored plan and your portion of the premium is 200 bucks or you have what is called a catastrophic plan that frankly, won't work for us.
Something like Alliant or one of those that you see advertised on TV.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I won't lie to you, I don't know the answer either, but I know that doing nothing is idiotic.
How so???
I wonder if the government has sought bids from private insurers on what it would cost to provide 45 mil(I question that figure, but we will go with it) new customers.
It's like we are trying to reinvent the wheel here...under a government group plan...what would it cost for Blue Cross coverage.
Maybe not a Cadillac plan. maybe everything isn't covered. maybe there are restrictions on who you can see....just good basic coverage with manageable co-pays, deductibles etc.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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As far as I know, there isn't a complete picture of the bill available for the public to read... just pieces and parts put out by both those that oppose it and those that endorse it.
Yet another broken campaign promise of getting these things up to read. You won't see it if the Big O gets his way. If this thing gets stalled to the August recess, people will actually be able to read the damn thing and THAT is what O is scared of; people actually having knowledge.
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j/c
haven't read this thread at all...but everytime i log in, the title makes me laugh...
isn't that, by definition, what insurance is (government run or not)? The people who are rich and healthy are supposed to pay for those who are poor and dying, so that they get paid if they cross over to the other group?
~Lyuokdea
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Essentially yes, but this was a directly related to people currently insured versus the indirect method you mentioned.
The government is considering taxing insured people on the difference that their employer pays for the insurance and the amount the insured pays on the insurance. And how much that amount is over a cap...or something like that. I would have to go back and reread the article. Essentially I'd have to pay taxes on my insurance now to pay for someone elses insurance. Along with the taxes that would need to be increased on everything else to make this happen.
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I wonder if the government has sought bids from private insurers on what it would cost to provide 45 mil(I question that figure, but we will go with it) new customers.
It's like we are trying to reinvent the wheel here...under a government group plan...what would it cost for Blue Cross coverage.
Maybe not a Cadillac plan. maybe everything isn't covered. maybe there are restrictions on who you can see....just good basic coverage with manageable co-pays, deductibles etc.
This just makes too much sense, 'peen
You know every insurance company would jump at the opportunity to bid on this.
And isn't this what the whole idea is with any type of insurance? Catastrophic or near catastrophic coverage? I don't have insurance on my car to cover oil changes or tires...I don't have insurance on my house to cover maintenance. (Nobody jump on me yet....)
I'm still trying to get a complete grasp on how this is completely the insurance company's doing. How is insuring 45 million more people going to change the fact that ABC hospital charges $5000 for XYZ procedure? If the argument is that more people will lower the charges, one could argue back supply and demand says the prices would go up as the demand increased.
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How so???
If you don't already understand that it's broken and getting worse, then me trying to explain it to you won't help at this point..
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I wonder if the government has sought bids from private insurers on what it would cost to provide 45 mil(I question that figure, but we will go with it) new customers.
It's like we are trying to reinvent the wheel here...under a government group plan...what would it cost for Blue Cross coverage.
Maybe not a Cadillac plan. maybe everything isn't covered. maybe there are restrictions on who you can see....just good basic coverage with manageable co-pays, deductibles etc.
Kinda what I was asking also... see, I have to pay what I pay because my group is small (2 people) and I have no leverage. (that and our age and health risks) What if that group was 65 million people?
So, if the government said to Blue Cross or Aetna or United Healthcare or Kaiser etc etc..., we have 45 million americans without insurance and we also have 20 million folks that are small business owners, (which would make one hell of a group) What would your pricing be?
I don't know, but on the surface, if I'm one of those insurance companies mentioned, I'm thinking, wow, I have a chance to write 65 million policies... damn... thats a whole lotta business. I'd jump at bidding on it...
On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd ever want ONE company to handle everything. But that's a topic for another day.
As far as level of coverage (as you put it, caddy plan vs something less) if you are going to put it out for bid, then put it out there requesting 3 or 4 or 5 levels of coverage. Each with thier own price points per month or week or quarter...whatever.
That way, if you or I want the Best plan and we can afford it, then we can pick that one, whereas, maybe a bottom level catastrophic plan with a cost of a couple hundred a month would be something folks on Unemployment or welfare could afford with perhaps some small help from the Federal Governemt.
But I for one, don't want to give out FREE HEALTHCARE to anyone that has the even the most remote chance of paying something for it. I'm NOT for free rides. except when it comes to a select group of people,, and they include Veterans of the military,,, damn it, we owe them and there ain't no getting around it. Maybe some of those retirees who lost some health benefits from the GM or Chrysler fiasco. I actually have a funny story about that to tell everyone someday....
But I am for affordable health insurance across the board and maybe making it a bidding war is the way to get the prices down without government involvement beyond being the central contact to organize and analyse the responses.
I'd love to see them try that... Dunno if it would work, but I'd really like them to try.
OH and by the way, putting this out for bid isn't "doing nothing" it's doing something and you suggesting it means you must recognize that doing nothing is not the right plan.
Last edited by Damanshot; 07/22/09 11:58 AM.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I wasn't trying to be snide or anything Daman, I was asking a serious question, because I recently shopped personal health insurance for just the wife and I to see if I could get it cheaper on my own, versus through my company.
As it turns out I could not, but the difference for a comparable plan to what I get through my company wasn't an outrageous sum. So I was curious. And for the record it is 5k deductible per person and like 7.5k combined.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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If you don't already understand that it's broken and getting worse, then me trying to explain it to you won't help at this point..
BS answer.
It isn't broken..people just need to get coverage...it's simply a matter of grouping them together under the same umbrella.
No doubt 1 company couldn't take on all the business..there would be a way to make it regional and spread the business between a dozen companies. I am sure equal rates could be negotiated with all the companies
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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The National Association for the Self Employed does that. When I was a contractor to the government I had pretty decent insurance through them because they grouped self-employed and small business owners together to get the bulk rate... It's really not that hard, somebody just has to do it, you could do it state by state or any other way.. hell the Browns Backers could get a group policy if they went about it the right way.... the problem is that somebody would want to make a couple bucks for organizing the whole thing and heaven knows we can't have that. 
yebat' Putin
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J/C
I really think that idea is a good one on a mass scale. Thats something that should get some attention as an alternative if it is was approached correctly to the right people.
Although I still like my idea of getting back to the basics cause it would solve more than just the insurance problems.
Last edited by ChiefsFan; 07/22/09 01:47 PM.
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I didn't take you as being snide man,,, worry not,., I just didn't understand what you were comparing.
I'm guessing you are a young man and wife.. meaning 20 or 30 something in good health and non smokers.. am I right about that? If your old like me and in bad health or at least have had health issues, and that's what your plan costs,, man, hook me up with the name of the insurance company...... I could use a break today...LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The National Association for the Self Employed does that. When I was a contractor to the government I had pretty decent insurance through them because they grouped self-employed and small business owners together to get the bulk rate...
I tried that also with NASE and basically all they had to offer was a catastrophic plan... not a comprehensive plan.
Peen
It's not a BS answer.. it's the truth...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You do understand that
No,, as I said earlier on, I admit to not KNOWING everything about the plan that the Dems and Obama are pushing. I'm not sure you have it right either because so little of the actual proposal has been published.
Thanks for your honesty. And no, I have not read the entire bill - for only 1 reason - it's over 1000 pages long. I DID however, find the bill. I don't have a link right now, but 2 days ago I heard something on the radio about people only being allowed to keep the private insurance they have prior to passage of this - if it passes - and otherwise, if they change jobs, get fired, or whatever, they would HAVE to have coverage under this..........so I checked it out. Right there in black and white - page 16. That is what it says. So, the bill is out there for those that want to read it - but trust me, it's not "easy" reading, so to speak.
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You know how it is,, someone loads a bunch of stuff into a bill, then stuff gets cut to reach a compromise.
That's a big part of the problem - and then factor in that no one voting on it has read it - not even Obama - and it looks like trouble to me.
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As far as I know, there isn't a complete picture of the bill available for the public to read... just pieces and parts put out by both those that oppose it and those that endorse it.
Have seen the entire bill?
Yes - but as I stated, I haven't read the entire bill. I've probably read more of it than the people voting on it, though. 
In a few minutes I'll try to find the link again.
Edit to say: I heard today that, despite the rush to get this passed asap, most changes won't take effect until 2011. Now, I have not verified that, so I will try to - but if that IS the case, why do we need to rush this through at this point in time?
Why not take 6 months or a year - hammer out a GOOD plan - then pass it and have it take effect much sooner? Why is O trying to cram this down our throats?
Last edited by archbolddawg; 07/22/09 02:05 PM.
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Why not take 6 months or a year - hammer out a GOOD plan - then pass it and have it take effect much sooner? Why is O trying to cram this down our throats?
Because it's little more than a massive subsidy to private industry that will do very little - if anything - to fix the problems we have with our health care system.
No one calling the shots wants a 'good' plan...they want a profitable one that appeases the industry players.
The stimulus packages, the health care plan, energy bills, the case for war with Iraq, war spending bills...the goal is to get them through as fast as possible so no one actually understands or refutes the contents.
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arch, I'd be very interested in reading it,, or at least trying to read it  so if you get that link, please share it with us.. Thanks Quote:
if they change jobs, get fired, or whatever, they would HAVE to have coverage under this..........
Not knowing the plan at all, I'd have to say today, that could either be good or bad.. If the plan is good and fairly priced,, I have no problem, if it's a crap plan and costs a fortune,,, then no,, I wouldn't like that.
can you tell me which it will be? Not trying to be snide here, but if nobody knows what they are railing against, then why rail against it? Does that make sense?
would it not make more sense to find the data, read it, and make an informed decision?
I think that's why I'm not nearly as upset as some are...
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Why not take 6 months or a year - hammer out a GOOD plan -
Excellent question. Off the top of my head, I can think of one quick reason for Obama to rush it.. (believe me, I don't find this to be a good reason to rush)
There has been plenty of talk that if he doesn't get this done, he will have failed on a campaign promise... which of course woudn't be true unless he didn't get it done by the time he leaves office in either 4 or 8 years. Only then it would truly be a failure to keep a promise.
One republican said (dewint I think), and I'm paraphrasing here, that he (obama) has to be defeated on the healthcare issue because it will derail his presidency. sounds like politics to me.....
I'm very very much for putting it out to bid to all the big insurance players as Peen mentioned.., I'm big on that,, but what has to happen is that it has to be transparent and have bipartisan oversight. Or it won't mean a damn thing.. it also has to be free of politics... as if?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Um - I posted the link. It's right above your post from 3:59 pm - I posted the link at 3:29 pm. Does it not work? It works for me.
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Why not take 6 months or a year - hammer out a GOOD plan -
Excellent question. Off the top of my head, I can think of one quick reason for Obama to rush it.. (believe me, I don't find this to be a good reason to rush)
There has been plenty of talk that if he doesn't get this done, he will have failed on a campaign promise... which of course woudn't be true unless he didn't get it done by the time he leaves office in either 4 or 8 years. Only then it would truly be a failure to keep a promise.
One republican said (dewint I think), and I'm paraphrasing here, that he (obama) has to be defeated on the healthcare issue because it will derail his presidency. sounds like politics to me.....
There is only ONE reason to rush it... the longer it floats out there, the more people learn about it, the more people dislike it. That's it.
Typically in politics, Presidents get the first 100 days or so to pass through some of their campaign platforms so they can keep their promise... these things usually go relatively unopposed by the opposition party and typically, they are fairly insignificant things... this is far from an insignificant thing and Obama realizes that his grace period is pretty much over.
There is a second thing I suppose... Even democrats are smart enough to realize that this stranglehold they have on all branches of government will be fleeting and won't last long... and right now they have zero republican support and are losing democratic support by the hour so Obama is smart enough to realize that if he can't shove this down our throats quickly, then the window of opportunity will close...
Now to rational thinking people what that means is.. fine, shoot this down then get to work drafting something that makes sense... but for some reason, in DC, it doesn't mean that, it means that this issue tried and failed and will be shelved for a long time....
yebat' Putin
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Oh,, sorry, I must have been typing my response as you were posting so no, I didn't see it.. sorry.. and thanks
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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There is only ONE reason to rush it... the longer it floats out there, the more people learn about it, the more people dislike it. That's it.
Well, that's a reason,, but there for sure isn't only ONE reason cause I just gave you another one two posts up...
I'm sure there are other reasons as well....
Few are worth a damn if you ask me.. this really should be stalled because rushing on something this important is a stupid move,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Well, that's a reason,, but there for sure isn't only ONE reason cause I just gave you another one two posts up...
Ok, should have been more clear.. .we could come up with a dozen reasons.. but it is my opinion, that in Obama's mind, there is one reason... and that reason is that he knows that if it gets delayed, it's dead in the water.
yebat' Putin
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There are many issues where 'the quicker, the better' comes into play...I have stated opinions very similar to your's -- it's simply a bad plan, and the more time given to examine it, the worse it sounds.
However, there are two key issues for both sides of the political aisle in D.C. where they simply want it done to say they did it, whether it's for better or worse -- health care for the Dems, and abortion for the GOP.
Either side, if given a glimmer of hope to make a change - even if it's a weak or ineffective one - will be pounced on immediately.
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I tried that also with NASE and basically all they had to offer was a catastrophic plan... not a comprehensive plan.
You might want to check with them again. They use to carry several comprehensive plans. I know that for a fact bro because I use to sell them. I kept up my ins license for years, and use to sell both life ins, and health insurance on the side to suppliment my income.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Actually, I know that sometimes things change so after someone wrote about NASE, I went to thier site and requested info on plans. they are now listing several insurance companies.
One of them, United Health Care automatically denies me because I had a vascular related surgery.. there is a Blue Cross of Indiana listed and a few others as well. Also, Mega, which is the only one that contacted me the last time I requested info.
So, we'll see. Look, I'm all for finding a lower rate, but given my history, I'm not going to settle for weaker benefit coverage. doesn't make sense.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Ok, should have been more clear.. .we could come up with a dozen reasons.. but it is my opinion, that in Obama's mind, there is one reason... and that reason is that he knows that if it gets delayed, it's dead in the water.
I think that's what detractors hope, but I doubt it's accurate to say that if it gets delayed that it's dead..
Did you listen to his press conference last night. He was asked, why such a rush and his answer was something we have all seen when referring to Washington,, that unless you have a hard and fast deadline, things just keep getting pushed back further and further.. Which I think we all know has some truth in it.
I was glad to hear that he said he won't sign it if he doesn't feel it's right.. Deadline or no deadline. We'll see if that's what comes to pass, but it was at least the right thing to say.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Arch,, holy smokes,, I started to try to read this thing this morning before I had coffee,, thought it was me,, then I had two cups,,, nope,, it's not me, it's this entire bill,,
YIKES I'm sorry to report that I'm not at all sure I understand what I just read! I got to page 17 and my head was hurting so I stopped.. I think I'd rather have teeth pulled than to read this stuff..
I'm not a dummy but damn, this makes me feel like one. Makes me wonder how anyone could possibly make claims about what's in it.
My guess is that anyone can make a claim and the average person would be hardpressed to figure out if they are truthful or not.
It would probably take days and days, but this needs a point by point debate and it should be open to public scrutiny.. Not at all sure how that would or could work...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I think that's what detractors hope, but I doubt it's accurate to say that if it gets delayed that it's dead..
That's not what I said and that's not what his detractors said (I am one by the way).. that's what Obama said. His quote was something to the effect of... "we have this opportunity right now to get this done and if we don't, it could be generations before we have that opportunity again." Generations? Really?
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Did you listen to his press conference last night.
Yes I did and I don't know any more about the plan today than I did yesterday.
I watched a telling segment on Oreilly last night. He had a staunch conservative strongly opposed to the plan and a staunch liberal strongly in favor of the plan. He let them fight it out for a minute on why we should, or should not, sign the plan. Then he asked each one to give him some kind of summary on how the plan affects him, just briefly explain the plan, how it works and how it's paid for... neither one of them had any idea. Yet they were adamently for or against it..
I think that is where a lot of Americans are right now. NOBODY seems to understand it or be able to explain it, least of all our President... so, being the risk averse person that I am, I'm not in favor of signing something that is going to cost trillions of dollars when nobody can explain to me how (or if) it will work.
yebat' Putin
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