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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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j/c
Obviously, we as fans are going to be excited whenever we see a change in the organization after a very disappointing prior regime. But here's where I see a difference: When we came back, we had Chris Palmer - a first time head coach. After he failed, we hired Butch Davis - a first time NFL head coach. After he failed we hired Romeo Crennel - a first time head coach.
See the pattern? Now we have Mangini, who just spent three years as a head coach and compiled a record of 23-25, just below .500, with a team that wasn't very talented when he took over. He would have made the playoffs this year if not for a late season collapse by future hall of famer, Brett Favre.
Mangini has already proven that he can be an NFL head coach. I don't know about you, but I'd say .500 would be a nice change around here.
To add to your point...
Butch was a disciplinarian, but he was dishonest with his team. And he hired a personnel guy who had NO CLUE how to evaluate NFL talent (and neither could Botch).
Mangini seems to be honest with the team and has a GM who knows NFL talent (supposedly). He's also been raised in the NFL game. Butch did come from the NFL game but he was away for awhile...a lot changed from the time he was with the Cowboys to when he started here (most notably with "character players").
Plus...I think Butch was a good gameplanner...he got the most out of an AWFUL cast that he picked...the dropoff in coaching when Robiskie took over was very noticeable. I still think Butch could have gotten more out of this team than Romeo did.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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William Green was my fav!!! 
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Posts: 156
Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 156 |
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I believe Jim Brown is more of a detriment to the teams public perception than he is a help.
Perception is the key word.
Perception can vary from one person to the other .
I for one don't really care what the public perception of JB might be .
I really don't see him as a mouthpiece for the organization, I see him as one of the last links to our great history as the Cleveland Browns.
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His player evaluations (or at least the ones he's given to the media) have been no better than the average fan,
Being a great player doesn't qualify you as a great evaluator.
To take his evaluations with more faith than you would have for the average fan, is well a large leap of faith.
The game and players have changed so much since his heyday, one would wonder if he really evaluates talent as opposed to personalities
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and I can't seem to remember the last time he said something derogitory about anyone within the organization.
Why would you want him to ?
The media isn't doing a good enough job of this already ?
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When he has given an honest opinion, it's been a stupid quote that made more than just himself look bad.
Nobody wants the truth from JB, they want pixie dust.
Our record tells us the truth.
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It's a pretty predictable story: Brown is on the payroll so he fawns over the organization and the organization fawns over him. It'd be nice if he actually had the balls to say what he felt and vice-versa.
That's his job, but Head Brown fawner isn't a title I would want.
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To me, Jim Brown has almost reached the level of Don Shula in terms of what both men meant to their respective organizations: Fading elder who's coddled more than feared or respected.
Bingo, but he's still the greatest running back ever , and he's ours.
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I'm also suspect of what he's said to Lerner over the years, as things haven't gone very well. I'd have expected that if Brown had been giving great advice, that Lerner or someone else would credit Brown for the things he's said. To date, I haven't seen one shred of evidence in that regard.
I'm sure he has some imput , but I really doubt he's in on the finals.
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It's tough hammering on Jim Brown.  That's very indictive of where we're at as an organization.
Sure it is , and you are entitled to feel as you do, but I think you give his stature with the team far more power than it has. JMHO
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,532
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,532 |
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"but for the life of me I can't see how they can mesh together on football field. "
Being young highly paid atheletes with celebrity status, there are few people these guys might look up to and be willing to learn from. BUT an elite unit of Green Beret IS something almost any young man would look up to...
I don't know if Mangini cares if they mesh as long as he drives home the team first concept. I think it's brilliant.
Hardened elite warriors with nerves of steel, fearing no situation, fearing no enemy and taking action as one well oiled machine... maybe that's how he wants this team to perform.
Another thing about the Green Beret, they practice dealing with most situations becomes a natural reaction. Then if faced with something unique they rapidly adapt and overcome... Sound much like football to you?
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212 |
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so why is expecting us to compete not realistic??? ..
I'm with you on this one Diam, but i can see the other side as well. Last year we were the sexy pick to make some noise and make the playoffs. What has really changed from that team?? The offense is down Winslow. Maybe the o-line has been stabilized- i think it has for now. The widereceiver position has been addressed- both in the draft and with solid freeagent vets. The defense, who the heck knows. They can't be any worse- can they????
I don't know if the changes will equate to wins- but i do think we will see a competitive team, a disciplined team, and a team that does not quit. The one thing i do know- the NFL is full of examples of teams that turn it around quickly, there have been so many rags to riches stories even last year with the dolphins and the falcons. Why can't we be that team this year.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
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The problem with many many posters having very high expectations and proclaiming that "we're close", is the fact that we're not close and to expect better than .500 is not realistic this year.
Then when we're out the gate at 1-3 people want to burn the stadium down.
I certainly would be upset with a 1-3 start - unless one or two of them were amazing games that we just didn't pull out.
The Vikings may be a better team than us but they aren't a "super-team" by any means. After their running game and their run-D they're a team with a lot of questions and off-season controversy.
The Broncos have a bad defense and an offense that is all messed up. Between losing Cutler, Marshall's legal woes, and a new rookie HC this strikes me a game the Browns should win.
The Raven are obviously going to be the favorites in game 3. All I can say is that worse Browns teams than this one have beaten the Ravens.
The Bengals are getting lots of good press and will be better just by Palmer returning. The Browns spent half of last season without our #1 or #2 QB's but no one seems to think that had anything to do with our offensive problems. If the Bengals are going to have a good season it's going to depend on their D and I don't expect them to be in a groove by week 4.
2-2 I can live with.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
whats changed from last year ...
1. Were HEALTHY for now .. we were DECIMATED with injuries last year ..
2. Our schedule is alot easier ... last year we were going to take a step back from the year before just based on the schedule difference ... well this year is alot more like the 07 schedule than the 08 schedule ..
3. Our D is improved from last year .. no question about it ...
4. BQ is an improvement over DA ..
5. we have a VERY VERY YOUNG TEAM ... so another year of experience is HUGE for us ..
IMO the folks that think were going to be non competive are putting way to much emphasis on what happend last year ..
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363 |
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IMO the folks that think were going to be non competive are putting way to much emphasis on what happend last year
I'm glad you said it, I've been thinking the same thing for months. I really feel that losing DA and Edwards at the end of camp put a kink in the works. Steinbach played with a bad back, and Tucker was gone most of the year.
Defensively there was Robaire, Holly, and others. I was at camp and saw Williams struggle with his shoulder. Bad enough learning a new scheme, but hurt all year didn't help.
I'll admit there was some poor execution from the team at many times , and pitiful gameplans and in game adjustments, but the injuries IMO had the most effect.
The '07 schedule was easy, but this is the NFL, and you still can be beat by anybody on any given day. But to look at that season and how the team clicked, the lack of injuries is evident.
I'm not predicting playoffs, but I don't see how a team that won ten games, no matter what the schedule, could be as bad as many here make them sound. I also think many overlook the power struggle with RAC and Savage. It is well known that RAC wanted players that Savage didn't get him. I think he saw what was happening, and realized that he needed some experienced guys at WR and corner to handle the tough schedule ahead. I don't think you can disregard what this kind of uncooperation can do to a team.
Many don't agree that we've upgraded in a few vital spots, but I do. I also have to agree with your assessment of young guys entering the season with a little more experience.
Like another poster pointed to, that is overlooked also. How many games did we play without DA or Quinn? Think about the last couple games, we had a QB off the street. A TE (Cieslak) off the street. Add to that Braylon and his melt down, Crennel seeing the writing on the wall, and Savage throwing people under the bus. Not exactly a winning situation.
I am optomistic, just as I was last year, but I'm keeping an open mind. .500, to me is a very easy goal, I just hope the team has a higher one.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,556
Legend
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Legend
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whats changed from last year ...
I agree with what you said, but you forgot another important factor...a new coach and staff.
The attitude and drive a coach brings to a football team is unique in sports. It can't be underestimated.
I guess we really won't know what Mangini and crew brings until we start playing on Sundays, but I can't help but believe it has to be more than Romeo was able to generate.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Legend
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Legend
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Posts: 15,188 |
Good point .. I actually thought of that last night while falling asleep ...
I'm sure Jeannie will bring somethings to the table and more than likely be an upgrade to the team than RAC ... BUT where theres definetly going to be an upgrade is at DC .. Ryan is a proven commodity .. he knows what hes doing ..
and now .. he has a few more pieces than his predeccors ever had .. so thats just another plus ..
I said it the day after the season ended .. were not there yet but were not as far away as most think ..
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Legend
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Legend
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and another thing is this will be much more of a TEAM ... there will be alot more unity ... and accountbility ... and not only from Jeannie .. U can see it from the "witch is dead"'s article ...
U gotta love the fact there "studying" and learning together .. BQ's leadership will really take a front and center role in that ...
plus his work ethic will rub off on others ..
there are lots of POSITIVE THINGS going on in Brownstown for the first time since our return ... and al I can say is .... ITS ABOUT DAMM TIME ..
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Legend
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Legend
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I'll just be happy if we don't mismanage the clock at the end of each half. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
No worries there mate ... I know that BQ knows what hes doing ... i have no clue weather jeannie or daboll know what there doing .. but i know that BQ knows what hes doing and will take charge ..
so unless they screw him up and call a TO when its not neccessary .. were in good hands there ..
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Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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That's because even though Davis was a disciplinarian, he was also an idiot and a pathetic talent evaluator. But if you want to focus on just one aspect, please, enjoy yourself 
Not to mention a liar..his players didn't trust him..
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
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That's because even though Davis was a disciplinarian, he was also an idiot and a pathetic talent evaluator. But if you want to focus on just one aspect, please, enjoy yourself
Not to mention a liar..his players didn't trust him..
He wasn't a liar. He just over-promised and under-delivered. 
He should have gone into politics. 
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Legend
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I thought he just experienced a lot of "gut-feeling" changes.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
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That could have been the Mexican food at lunch too though... 
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Legend
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It's all about team. Seems like any concept of team splinters in 2-3-4 directions in the past. I have a feeling Mangini won't allow that even if it means cutting his throat and cutting good players who don't want to play inside a team concept.
As for BQ...I am pretty sure he gets the nod.....but if not, I will be 100% sure DA earned it and that is that.
Either way, I think we are going to see some good QB play, and the point you make about Ryan is sound..I think we are going to have a aggressive D...something we have lacked for a while.
Romeo was all about position...and I agree that is important, but sometimes you just need to get in the backfield and blow things up before they ever get started.
Al Davis might be a dork and reminiscent of "Bernie"(you know, the movie) but he insist on aggressive D, so the fact he hired Ryan tells me that is his M.O....not to mention his dad taught him everything he knew.
As I have said, we weren't as bad as last year ended, and we have made improvements...we can make some big improvements.
By the way....I finished the book....very good read.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns adjusting to disciplinarian
Mangini in offseason of change
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