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How many division titles have we won in the last 15 years.??? 7 or 8??
7 in the last 15 years.
10 since being the Cleveland Blues in the year 1901.
Not a slam from a Reds fan, as I've stated before I also root for the Tribe to be successful. You can look at any small market club and the numbers are going to be low....the Tribe, the Reds, the Expos/Nationals, the Pirates...when compared to the Yankees or the Dodgers per se. That's what makes it hard, and that's what makes it special when you do get the combination in place to make it happen as the Tribe did from 1995 to 2001. As Ytown alluded to, the economics of the sport prohibit winning for many ballclubs on a consistent basis if at all. Until the revenue flow changes as it works in the NFL, the haves will always be in front of the have-nots for the most part. 
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Calling Dolan cheal is like calling a corporate mid manager cheap because he doesn't spend like Donald Trump.
nobody is saying to just throw money around everywhere. but don't people get sick of seeing our best players sent off?
it's embarassing.
it's not all the dolans. but they do have their share.
the economics and structure of baseball are pure crap. and it's evident how the nfl has basically succeeded with them in every category. they are the national pastime.
I agree that the economics of MLB are crap. I wish they had some sort of cap/revenue sharing in place ala the NFL. I think it would make for a much better product in many more markets, and would help MLB overall in restoring some semblance of being a national game. (and pastime)
Kids today don't play baseball because they don't see baseball. Football and basketball are on television all the time. Baseball? Well ..... if you get the right package you can see games. Short term good for a team because of the revenue generated ... but overall bad for national exposure and building fan interest beyond a team's local market. Further, people who might become fans aren't exposed to the game like they are football and basletball. There is very little chance of building your market if no one sees your product ..... and if your product can't compete.
i think baseball does have revenue sharing. a lot of these small market teams do pocket quite a bit of money.
my problem is the that baseball is unfair. do you know why the yankees and red sox can have these ridiculous payrolls? it's not because they have these ultra-generous owners. the yankees have a massive deal with the yes network to broadcast games. they fill out their payroll with that money. the same goes with the red sox. boston isn't much bigger than cleveland, but when you throw new england into the mix, it can rival new york. nesn. new england sports network.
boston is the perfect example of how a team like that should be run. they spend a lot of money, but they also raise a lot of their guys. they have money in their minor league system, yet they still go out and spend money on top end free agents. the yankees just throw money at the best free agents available every year. and they have no consequence.
i am not wishing the indians to be like that. a lot on this topic are assuming i am saying that because i call the dolans cheap. this is not just black and white. there is a gray area.
the indians are absolutely killing their fanbase. soon they'll be just as irrelevant as they were during the cavs playoff run, when training camp starts.
training camp for a 4-12 team with a new regime, mind you.
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the indians are absolutely killing their fanbase. soon they'll be just as irrelevant as they were during the cavs playoff run, when training camp starts.
training camp for a 4-12 team with a new regime, mind you.
^^^^^^^^^^ THIS!!!!
If they want people to actually GO to the games, then STOP just letting all our guys go.
You build around Victor Martinez and Cliff Lee...you don't let them go for more prospects.
I also don't believe ownership does enough to promote the team outside of the area. Red Sox Nation is a complete fabrication, but people bought into it once they started winning and now they have worldwide funds to work with.
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looks like indians are dangling lee also
web page
And Victor, if the Dolans can't hang with the big boys why did they buy the team? Baseball is becoming a joke unless you are the Yankees or Boston. Even a good young team like Tampa Bay who has done everything right in regards to draft and developement can't compete with NY & Boston.
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looks like indians are dangling lee also
web page
And Victor, if the Dolans can't hang with the big boys why did they buy the team? Baseball is becoming a joke unless you are the Yankees or Boston. Even a good young team like Tampa Bay who has done everything right in regards to draft and developement can't compete with NY & Boston.
well no, they can now. and the people against me in this argument will bring them up
but come talk to me in a few years when those guys sign big money deals in new york, boston, chicago, and los angeles.
too bad too, because it was a nice young team to watch. it was refreshing.
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I fully expect Cliff Lee to be traded.
Then all the optimists will drool over the prospects we got, and how they'll be the foundation of this team for years to come.
Meanwhile, we still draft poorly and are still poor fundamentally.
We need to clean house. The Dolan way CLEARLY doesn't work.
2 playoff appearances in 9 years, one of them was from a roster inherited from the Dick Jacobs regime.
I think it's hilarious how some people want Lerner to sell the Browns yet in the same breath defend the Dolans.
Last edited by Ammo; 06/29/09 11:13 AM.
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Summer garage sale is Indians tradition by Bud Shaw, Plain Dealer Columnist Sunday June 28, 2009, 8:07 PM Bud Shaw The Indians are becoming accomplished in maximizing the trade value of their assets during failed seasons. That's the organizational upside and downside all in one unembraceable bottom line. Better that lack of opportunity leaves Mark Shapiro less gifted in this means of roster building. Last year it was early July with CC Sabathia as the family heirloom in an estate sale. This time around it's the more modestly priced Mark DeRosa hung on a garage rack in late June. "I don't think it's the way anybody envisioned it happening," closer Kerry Wood said Sunday when asked if he thought the DeRosa trade was the first public notice of a second consecutive White (Flag) Sale at Progressive Field. "I can't speak to that," said Wood. "I just know it's a direct result of how we've played this season." Mark Shapiro acquired DeRosa from the Cubs in December for three minor league pitchers a few weeks after signing Wood as a free agent. While collecting ex-Cubs is suspected of being baseball's version of walking under a ladder on the way to get a broken mirror fixed, DeRosa and Wood figured to give the Indians a significant bump from last year's mediocrity. Not three months into 2009, the Indians are 31-46 (the worst record in the AL) after Sunday's 8-1 loss to the Reds. DeRosa is gone, traded to St. Louis for reliever Chris Perez and a player to be named. Shapiro can rationalize the deal as a one-size fits all remedy that helps in the short term as well as the long. He called Perez a "piece in an area that sorely needs to be addressed." We'll see how much immediate help he brings. As we saw with Jensen Lewis and Rafael Perez, other young relievers of some promise have pitched as if their hair is on fire. In the meantime, what else can the Indians barter? Jamey Carroll? Carl Pavano? Even bigger tumbleweeds would blow through the seats if they dealt Cliff Lee or Victor Martinez a year early. Wood? He's got a two-year deal worth $20 million. Collecting more talent in trades won't be easily accomplished. That's a shame. The Indians have done that far more successfully than they've cashed in on their own drafts. That's probably true of some other organizations as well. But since Jaret Wright in 1994, consider the names on their list of No. 1s: David Miller, Danny Peoples, Tim Drew, Sabathia, Corey Smith, Daniel Denham, Jeremy Guthrie, Michael Aubrey, Brad Snyder, Jeremy Sowers, Trevor Crowe, Beau Mills, Lonnie Chisenhall and Alex White. Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee (Bartolo Colon), Michael Brantley, Matt LaPorta and Zach Jackson (Sabathia), Asdrubal Cabrera (Eduardo Perez), Shin Soo-Choo (Ben Broussard), Carlos Santana and John Meloan (Casey Blake) and -- going waaaaay back -- even Jake Westbrook (David Justice) -- all deals made in the same fading light of summer that brings Chris Perez. Sell-offs are integral business in all except the big markets. But the hefty tariff is lost revenue at the box office. While they insist they're not giving up, what will keep fan interest this summer other than playing prospects like Brantley and LaPorta? "Except for one guy, we have the same team we left camp with," Wood was saying Sunday. I think he meant that as a good thing. http://www.cleveland.com/budshaw/index.ssf/2009/06/the_indians_are_becoming_accom.html
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The first move you try is a new manager unless you are sitting on a Bobby Cox or Tony LaRussa...then you can eliminate the leadership factor......but Eric Wedge is no Bobby Cox.
If things still don't click...you start over...that is the way it has always been and always will be.
First off I will say I like the deal. This let's Valbuena 2B, Cabrera SS, and Peralta 3B play these positions every day for awhile, let's see how that works out. I'm in favor of firing Wedge, but who do we bring in? Hargrove?
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a lot of venom being spewed....I want to see the PTBNL, but this could be a good trade.
I trust Shapiro with his trades...he tends to do very well with them. Now, his drafting is absolutely atrocious, so hopefully something is done to fix that (is that really him, our insistance on signability or bad scouting...I don't know).
the time for Wedge to go was last offseason...how many organizations that mire in mediocrity with a coach for years come back and become a successful team? very, very few. it would be better to start fresh, but I don't think that comes until the offseason.
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I'm more upset that we've stuck with the same damn philosophy that hasn't worked.
Reghi went on a rant about this yesterday and I completely agree. We've been to the playoffs once in seven seasons and we stick to the same formula? Our drafts have been terrible yet Shapiro's still very stable in his job? The Indians have been one of the worst fundamental baseball teams in the game, CONSISTENTLY, and Wedge's job is still safe?
Something's VERY wrong with that, and it all falls on ownership.
Many criticize Randy Lerner for firing coaches too quickly and not settling on stability...well screw that, I've seen stability out of the Indians...too much of it, and it makes me sick.
Keep in mind I was raised on the 90's Indians...this team couldn't be further from it. Many people my age agree and are sick of it. We're becoming apathetic and just not caring anymore. When you lose the passion of the fan base, you've lost the city.
I wish Dan Gilbert could somehow buy the Indians...
To be a Devil's Advocate:
Switch the Indians record over the last 15 years with the Browns and people would be dancing in the streets. Consistently winning the division. Making noise in the playoffs. Making the championship twice.
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...Under Dick Jacobs.
Under the Dolans this team has been a mess. They won the division twice...once with an inherited Dick Jacobs roster. They had one winning season with no playoffs (see: 10-6 2007 Browns), and one playoff season (2002 Browns vs. 2007 Indians) with the Dolan/Shapiro built roster.
It's almost hilarious to me how some people don't actually believe the Indians are as much of a mess as the Browns are...and that our ownership is somehow any good.
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I have to say I have the exact opposite opinion.
The Browns are so beloved that the complete ineptness with which ownership operates, front office management, and coaching that they continue to get a pass.
If the Browns had the following the Indians do, CBS would be a ghosttown. An absolute empty stadium.
The Indians have legitimate talent. They have the reigning Cy Young award winner! They have a 5 tool center field star! And one of the greatest hitting catchers of his generation.
What do the Browns have? Joe Thomas and a bunch of slappies!
I'm telling you...the Browns have been and are in a far, far worse place even considering solely the Dolan regime. It's only the overwhelming love for football in Ohio that keeps that place from being burnt to the ground.
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The Indians have legitimate talent. They have the reigning Cy Young award winner! They have a 5 tool center field star! And one of the greatest hitting catchers of his generation.
They have a Cy Young winner who likely won't be here much longer.
I'll give you Grady.
Martinez might be traded for all we know too.
Otherwise, what the hell else do we have? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. And save me the crap about the farm system. I'm sick and tired of the damn farm system.
And you're right about CBS being a ghost town if Cleveland wasn't such a football crazed city...but that's beside the point. The point is the Indians are equally as poor as the Browns when it comes to how they are run.
FACTS:
-Drafts have been garbage.
-"potential" almost never pans out
-Fundamentally the worst team in baseball since Wedge came aboard.
-Payroll has been considerably lower than the market ranking (talk attendance all you want, I don't buy it...I believe the fans will come when ownership shows they want to win, not the other way around)
We're basically a AAA ballclub with a couple stars and a bunch of mediocre players. We're never gonna win with this approach unless the stars align.
I'd be one thing if we consistently drafted and traded well...but we don't.
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I'd be one thing if we consistently drafted and traded well...but we don't.
We draft horribly.
But, the only reason I think Shapiro still has a job is that he makes up for it a bit with his trades.
If the rumors are true that we get 2 top10 Cardinal prospects (Perez being confirmed...the other PTBNL) for DeRosa...you can't really quibble with that trade when we are 12 games out.
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I'd be one thing if we consistently drafted and traded well...but we don't.
We draft horribly.
But, the only reason I think Shapiro still has a job is that he makes up for it a bit with his trades.
If the rumors are true that we get 2 top10 Cardinal prospects (Perez being confirmed...the other PTBNL) for DeRosa...you can't really quibble with that trade when we are 12 games out.
Well that's all fine and dandy if he trades well...
But we'll still be a mediocre team.
We can play this moneyball game if we draft AND trade well. We can't do one or the other well, we simply can't. To compete and win, we HAVE TO do both.
If we can't, then we have to replace the GM.
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Ok, that is a fair argument, I misinterpretted your previous post as if he did not do either well.
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here's the thing about the browns. and yeah, the nfl is fair for all parties involved unlike major league baseball.
the indians have a cy young award winner. if the browns had a player as good on their team, they certainly wouldn't let him walk.
but like i said, that is not all on the dolans. baseball just sucks in general when it comes to teams being allowed to keep their players.
everyone talks about how the steelers let guys go, they let players in the past walk and get money elsewhere. nobody points out that they sign key guys long term (big ben, polamalu, etc)
the indians basically wanna let everyone go. and they wanna get prospects back in return so they can groom those guys to soon be traded away for more prospects.
wow, awesome.
it's like running around in a circle. you end up right where you started.
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The economics of baseball put any ownership of a mid-market team at a disadvantage. The Indians though have considerably outperformed other mid-market teams.
The Browns are on their third different front office, their fifth different head coach and have an owner who bought a soccer team but was willed our football team. An owner who lives in New York.
Over the last 10 years the Browns have the second worst record in the league. The Indians have one of the best. Under the Dolans they have a winning record.
2001 91-71
2002 74-88
2003 68-94
2004 80-82
2005 93-69
2006 78-84
2007 96-66
2008 81-81
2009 31-46
TOTAL 692-681
The Browns......
I don't even want to go there for blood pressure reasons.
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Not to mention that we've given the Yankees 3 of their 5 biggest beatdowns in history. 
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The Browns are on their third different front office, their fifth different head coach and have an owner who bought a soccer team but was willed our football team. An owner who lives in New York.
Over the last 10 years the Browns have the second worst record in the league. The Indians have one of the best. Under the Dolans they have a winning record.
2001 91-71
2002 74-88
2003 68-94
2004 80-82
2005 93-69
2006 78-84
2007 96-66
2008 81-81
2009 31-46
TOTAL 692-681
The Browns......
I don't even want to go there for blood pressure reasons.
Subtract 2001 from the equation. 2001 doesn't count, that was the Dick Jacobs era Tribe.
2002 was the REAL beginning of the Dolan Tribe, and that record is 601-610.
One playoff appearance, two winning seasons, one .500 season. The rest have been stinkers.
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If you're argument is that the Indians draft poorly, develop young talent poorly, have poor fundamentals and can't spend with the large market teams then you're point is valid. If you're argument is that the Indians are as much a mess as the Browns ... Quote:
It's almost hilarious to me how some people don't actually believe the Indians are as much of a mess as the Browns are
then you're going to have a tough time with that one.
The Browns have been a catastrophe to this point. They haven't beaten their arch-rival in seemingly a decade. They have a player suing the organization. Their front office literally tells a fan to "_____" and go root for Buffalo. They have a player who just killed another man. They've had 7 staph infections which is more than wins in all but two seasons.
I mean what adjective other than train-wreck is valid.
The Indians at least field a competitive team.
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the browns look worse because they only play 16 games.
the nfl you're never as bad as you look, and you're never as great as you look.
not to mention every baseball team looks different every 5 days.
so much is geared toward pitching.
it is really tough to compare the two or to say who is in worse shape. all i know is both situations are unacceptable.
it seems like the lerners try harder and want it more because they use the cap to the full potential and sign free agents, fire coaches and gms, but again, the nfl is fair for everyone.
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the indians basically wanna let everyone go. and they wanna get prospects back in return so they can groom those guys to soon be traded away for more prospects.
The Indians want to replicate what the Marlins did twice and the Rays nearly pulled off last year (and the Tribe the year before that).
That is....collect a ton of young assets. Pull off a championship....then sell off before the parts get too expensive and begin again.
With MLB's economics, it might be the best way for a mid-market team to compete for and win a championship. It leaves very little room for error though (drafting, trades, and FA) and requires fans willing to sit through many years of mediocrity (or worse) and the potential that you will blow a 3-1 series lead in the year that you have setup to win a championship.
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the indians basically wanna let everyone go. and they wanna get prospects back in return so they can groom those guys to soon be traded away for more prospects.
The Indians want to replicate what the Marlins did twice and the Rays nearly pulled off last year (and the Tribe the year before that).
That is....collect a ton of young assets. Pull off a championship....then sell off before the parts get too expensive and begin again.
With MLB's economics, it might be the best way for a mid-market team to compete for and win a championship. It leaves very little room for error though (drafting, trades, and FA) and requires fans willing to sit through many years of mediocrity (or worse) and the potential that you will blow a 3-1 series lead in the year that you have setup to win a championship.
yup, and like i said, it's the exact same thing.
except when the team is ready to make a run, they will go out and get the right pieces.
the second championship was mostly homegrown talent with a few small pieces, and pudge rodriguez which was a big signing and a guy that tied the whole thing together.
however, the first championship against the tribe was a lot of guys. they had a very high payroll that year, and they ended up tearing down the entire team the year before.
the truth is, it is the only way the tribe can compete. and guess what? unlike the marlins and rays, this talent isn't turning out, if you wanna play that way, you better hit and hit well on your prospects, we're not. and it's no fun for the fans. your team being down 15 games, selling off your good players to save money and "build" for the future. the future that never comes.
it's been sizemore, martinez, and lee. nobody else has really panned out. cabrera looks like he might one day be a good ballplayer but we have yet to see it.
it's not working. i think shapiro has to go.
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the sad thing about it all is that it seemed like wedge was doing the best he possibly could with this roster.
i said before that it wasn't all that bad of a team with the exception of the bullpen. seemed like he was gettin these young guys, the hitters, to play decently, hit in spots, and make plays. but their true colors have showed. they can't rebound from tough losses. and now they're in over their heads.
so maybe i wasn't 100% correct on this being a decent team (bullpen excluded). but it's just sad.
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I honestly don't think Shaprio has to go... I personally feel that he has never made a bad trade besides the Phillips to the Reds.
Marte was a bust, but we gave up Crisp who while playing good in Cleveland, never was the same. Also the real gem there was Shoppach and I say gem because he is arguably the best back up catcher in the game and should deserve a full time job somewhere in league.
We have done an excellent job with our trades and the draft I will admit has been horrible, but I've heard that Shapiro isn't the final decision maker there. I've heard he gives quite a bit of power to the assistant GM's in the draft. I'm not sure what source I heard that from and it could be completely false, but it's something to think about.
The only top of the draft guys I see coming to Cleveland and making an impact are Chisenhall, Mills, and White (if we can sign him). I think there is a lot of potential in Kipnis as well, but we are loaded in the OF... not sure why they took him at #2 given that bit of info. Weglarz will be great too, but I don't believe he was a top of the draft pick.
I do like what they did in going out and paying the money for T.J. House and Trey Haley last year. Both of which could turn out very good.
Bottom line is, Shapiro is doing all he can (I believe) to make this mid-market team a winner. However, the players aren't producing. Victor, Choo, and Lee are the only ones... Sizemore is not up to his potential... Sowers and Laffey have never been the same since their first season in the bigs.... Pavano starts lighting it up and we think we have something and then we dont.... Carmona (possibly the biggest disappointment) is back in Rookie Ball after winning 20 games 2 years ago.... Hafner will never return to Pronkville...and Peralta hasn't become the .280/30/90 SS that everyone expected...
We all though we had something when we saw Sowers, Laffey, and Carmona come up from the minors and start well. Now, they've become mediocre at best. So we have to now put our faith in Huff, Rondon, De La Cruz, Gomez, Haley, and House to become the starters of the future.... and we have to put faith in Perez in White because "our" closer of the future, Adam Miller got bit by the injury bug and is fighting to keep his career alive. When "our" closer of the future went down, we had to go and get "their" closer of the future. Just so happened to be the Cardinals and we will likely end up with 2 of the Cards Top 10 prospects.... Likely another arm.
AND....
If Lee is traded before the deadline or on the deadline, look for a massive overhaul in prospects coming in. The guys we have aren't working and this is likely the best thing for us to do. I love Cliff Lee and would love for him to remain an Indian, but if all the reports are true and he will test the market.... do you think we have a chance against the Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers, and Angels? Not a chance.
We very well could pull off a deal with the Red Sox and get either Masterson orBuchholz along with a bat or another arm. Maybe the Rangers give in in hopes of getting lucky in the playoffs and give us Neftali Feliz. You never know, but I would much rather have prospects at this point in the game than the same old under-achieving players.
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As I said earlier in this thread I have always been a Wedge pimp, but unless there is a major turn around I don't expect to see him back IF he lasts out the season.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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As I said earlier in this thread I have always been a Wedge pimp, but unless there is a major turn around I don't expect to see him back IF he lasts out the season.
i don't even think it's his fault...
i like wedge. i dunno how people can blame him for this team's record. you could bring jesus christ in to coach and they'd still finish probably 81-81
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,306 |
I didn't say it's Eric's fault, I just said I look for it to happen.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,870 |
Chris Perez hits his 1st two batters, then walks Thome. Bases loaded in the 9th, 0 outs
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Posts: 1,679 |
Quote:
Chris Perez hits his 1st two batters, then walks Thome. Bases loaded in the 9th, 0 outs
Also threw a wild pitch and ended up giving up 4 runs...
Joe Thomas made Justin Timberlake change his name. He didn't want wusses to have the same initials...
Dawg Talker since 3/26/2005...
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,870 |
you would think he's been w/ the team all year 
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 326
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 326 |
well.... worst trade ever now huh?
Let's not put too much into a bad relief appearance by a 24 yr. old kid who just arrived today in Cleveland and is probably feeling like he has to prove something.... he has obviously put too much pressure on himself tonight.
Someone needs to tell him he is now playing for the 2nd worst team in baseball... Don't worry about a playoff birth kid.
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Posts: 7,223
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,223 |
Quote:
you would think he's been w/ the team all year
Dude fits right in!
Welcome to Cleveland, Perez! Join the rest of the idiots!
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
you'd think the bullpen coach is paying these guys off...
a series of fines for good play? Maybe a $30,000 bonus to the guy voted Least Valuable Player.
$25,000 to the guy who gives up the game winning run.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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If we're gonna suck, then hopefully we finish with the worst record so we can draft Bryce Harper...
Joe Thomas made Justin Timberlake change his name. He didn't want wusses to have the same initials...
Dawg Talker since 3/26/2005...
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
Quote:
As I said earlier in this thread I have always been a Wedge pimp, but unless there is a major turn around I don't expect to see him back IF he lasts out the season.
i don't even think it's his fault...
i like wedge. i dunno how people can blame him for this team's record. you could bring jesus christ in to coach and they'd still finish probably 81-81
Pretty optimistic for JC with this bunch.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,333
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,333 |
Quote:
If we're gonna suck, then hopefully we finish with the worst record so we can draft Bryce Harper...
Isn't that that phenom form Las Vegas that is supposed to be the best player ever?
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,679 |
Yeah, he was the one on the cover of SI a few weeks ago...
Joe Thomas made Justin Timberlake change his name. He didn't want wusses to have the same initials...
Dawg Talker since 3/26/2005...
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