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I'm talking about politicians as well.. all the way to the top dog... The president.
So you're essentially advocating indicting every politician in D.C.? 
Well, Obama would fall into damans "misleading" criteria. Perhaps he should be in jail right now? Just to show how serious this is, you know. Set an example.
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I'm talking about politicians as well.. all the way to the top dog... The president.
So you're essentially advocating indicting every politician in D.C.?
Well, Obama would fall into damans "misleading" criteria. Perhaps he should be in jail right now? Just to show how serious this is, you know. Set an example.
I can't really think of a president, senator or congressman who wouldn't fall under that criterion.
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So you're essentially advocating indicting every politician in D.C.?
Of all people, I'd actually expect you to love it... guess not
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So you're essentially advocating indicting every politician in D.C.?
Of all people, I'd actually expect you to love it... guess not
Not saying I wouldn't love it...
...just pointing out that it's as impractical as saying 'wouldn't it be great if we had peace on earth?'
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Not saying I wouldn't love it...
...just pointing out that it's as impractical as saying 'wouldn't it be great if we had peace on earth?'
So,, does that mean we should stop striving for peace on earth... Phil,, all the really really good stuff,, is hard to get.. If it were easy, every country would do it..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm not disagreeing...I'm just saying...your premise would - logically - end with the indictment of almost every politician in D.C.
And that's not going to happen. Ever.
The older I get, the more I feel that real change will come only from armed revolution...which is sad, as our founders took painstaking measures to make sure we didn't have to...they just underestimated the nation's lack of intelligence. Our populace is too stupid to get it...and at this juncture, too apathetic and content to rock the boat.
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I'm not disagreeing...I'm just saying...your premise would - logically - end with the indictment of almost every politician in D.C.
Only on the first or second time around.. eventually, we would rid ourselves of the crooks... So yea, it would be a nightmare at first.. as are most new things.. but eventually,, we'd clean house..
As for an armed revolution,, for me at least, that's not an option.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm not disagreeing...I'm just saying...your premise would - logically - end with the indictment of almost every politician in D.C.
And that's not going to happen. Ever.
The older I get, the more I feel that real change will come only from armed revolution...which is sad, as our founders took painstaking measures to make sure we didn't have to...they just underestimated the nation's lack of intelligence. Our populace is too stupid to get it...and at this juncture, too apathetic and content to rock the boat.
I'm not too stupid to get it.
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I'm not too stupid to get it.
Are you suggesting I am?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm not too stupid to get it.
Are you suggesting I am?
Not at all. Wow, you really read between the lines, don't you?
My reply to phil was concerning this statement he made:
"The older I get, the more I feel that real change will come only from armed revolution...which is sad, as our founders took painstaking measures to make sure we didn't have to...they just underestimated the nation's lack of intelligence. Our populace is too stupid to get it...and at this juncture, too apathetic and content to rock the boat."
Ease away from the keyboard, take a few deep breaths (not breasts), chill for a minute. You'll be okay. 
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Ease away from the keyboard, take a few deep breaths (not breasts), chill for a minute. You'll be okay
I'd rather have the breasts if you don't mind
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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A prime case of politicians misleading the public can be had by studying the Declaration of Independence. There is a book from the 1920's that does a great job of relating the founders' complaints to the situation as it stood and how things were spun to present the view that rebellion was justified. One example, the book mentions relates to "taxation without representation". The book tells how leading colonists on way to England before the war were told not to accept representation because the colonist being in the minority would simply be over-ruled. I'll have to find a link to the book, it has been 5-10 years since I last read it. For now here is a lesser piece: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009...related_stories
Last edited by Reckon; 08/03/09 08:27 PM.
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I guess being a crooked politician isn't new 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Do you feel Special Interest Groups and Politicians should be held accountable for Misleading statements or lies?
Yes.... and we already have that ability. If they are found to be flat-out untruthful and misleading, libel, slander and defamation of character suits can be brought against them.
If I were a politician and some opposing candidate or suppporting group spread untruthful information about me in an effort to harm me or my family's reputation, I think I'd have no problem slapping the max on them if possible. I'd also insist on a public apology and retraction to my face, and press hard for a voluntary resignation, be that person my direct opponent or an emplyee of his/hers.
Any moneys gained from a lawsuit would go towards some charitable cause, otherwise I might be accused of doing it for the money.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Yes.... and we already have that ability. If they are found to be flat-out untruthful and misleading, libel, slander and defamation of character suits can be brought against them
I know that we can bring action,, but why is it that politicians seem to always escape prosicution...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I am glad you posted this thread as I have thought about this numerous times. I think what you would have to get down to is the intent and EXACTLY what is being claimed.
A politician like George Bush campaigned on "no new taxes" but changed his mind when presented with evidence during his tenure that suggested that new taxes were needed. Did he "lie" or change his mind?
When liberals go after guns and author legislation and spend money on ads trying to make people feel safer about the elimination of gun types A and B, are their opponents "lying" when they claim that the real target of these legislative acts are guns C and D, the kind you own to hunt with? Perhaps, perhaps they know the slippery slope and the "way things go in D.C."
How about when someone goes on T.V. and says Obama's health care plan will cost 1 trillion dollars with no evidence to support that claim, get called on the carpet for it, and then backs off by saying that right now it may cost 540 billion but in a few years it will be . . . .
I agree, Daman, I think alot of these knuckleheads are in the fear making business and lying or grossly distorting the truth are tools and weapons they use to accomplish their goals, but lawsuits I am afraid will only hinder debate in the end.
I can't imagine a time where an army of lawyers and thought police comb through every word some group or politician said looking for, or investigating intent. Unless you can verify that a person or group of persons through witnesses or facts that they intend to perpetuate a lie I think it would be one more level of nonsense as both groups would have lawyer after lawyer arguing more nonsense.
I agree in spirit Daman, but I don't pay a lick of attention to political ads, I think they are all snake oil salesman anyway. I think the real idiots in this mess is the MSM who have buried any ounce of journalistic integrity for cute babes and handsome dudes whose only redeeming quality is in the superficial and spend more time legitimizing lies and distortions through airtime better spent on debating the facts. But the facts don't get ratings I guess.
If your mom is like my mom, that is where she gets her political discourse at and they are failing us and our moms.
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A politician like George Bush campaigned on "no new taxes" but changed his mind when presented with evidence during his tenure that suggested that new taxes were needed. Did he "lie" or change his mind?
It's kinda like I was saying, people make mistakes, they misspeak from time to time and yeah, people change thier minds when faced with a new or different set of facts or new information..
So, off the top of my head, I'd say No, Bush didn't lie, he changed his mind.
But here's the deal... What if it could be proven that Bush knew that he would have to raise taxes, yet, said "read my lips, No New Taxes" for one purpose and one purpose only, to get elected.. Now what do you do?
I said it before, I'll say it again, this wouldn't be easy.. not even close to easy.
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When liberals go after guns and author legislation and spend money on ads trying to make people feel safer about the elimination of gun types A and B, are their opponents "lying" when they claim that the real target of these legislative acts are guns C and D, the kind you own to hunt with? Perhaps, perhaps they know the slippery slope and the "way things go in D.C."
Oh man, that's a classic... yeah, that's the kinda stuff I was thinking about.
I'm no fan of guns,, don't own one, don't think I'll be buying one anytime soon, but I respect everyones right to own one.. or a dozen if they so choose..
Hell, There are people out there that hate gas guzzleing cars,, I'd have a hundred of them if I could afford it....and I don't want them outlawed.. I bring this up because I bet more people get killed by cars than by guns in the US.... Just a guess however.
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How about when someone goes on T.V. and says Obama's health care plan will cost 1 trillion dollars with no evidence to support that claim, get called on the carpet for it, and then backs off by saying that right now it may cost 540 billion but in a few years it will be . . . .
I'm trying to stay away from issues, but yeah, that's another one.. Truth is, I'm not convinced that anyone actually knows what that final cost will be yet.. but still, they put out numbers.
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I agree, Daman, I think alot of these knuckleheads are in the fear making business and lying or grossly distorting the truth are tools and weapons they use to accomplish their goals, but lawsuits I am afraid will only hinder debate in the end.
No question about it,, that's why I'm saying make it a crime to puposely mislead or lie if your in public office, a PAC, a lobbyiest, or a candidate etc.,,,
I'm totally convinced that once instituted,, there will be a lot less of it. will it stop entirely,, No,, someone will want to test it to see what they can get away with., others will just say,, damn the torpedos, full speed ahead..
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I can't imagine a time where an army of lawyers and thought police comb through every word some group or politician said looking for, or investigating intent. Unless you can verify that a person or group of persons through witnesses or facts that they intend to perpetuate a lie I think it would be one more level of nonsense as both groups would have lawyer after lawyer arguing more nonsense.
that's an excellent argument NOT to do what I suggest.. yet,, with all the power and smarts we have as a nation,, can't we find a way?
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If your mom is like my mom, that is where she gets her political discourse at and they are failing us and our moms.
There is the problem... in a nutshell.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I know you don't seem to believe my way is the right way to accomplish this.. ok,, I'm listening.. got any better ideas... I'm all ears.. Lay it out for me....
I will state for the record, that my way is about as impractical as yours... but since you asked... the only way to accomplish what you are saying is to have a mature and informed populace and to have an honest and forthright media.... as I said, neither of which is going to happen... that doesn't change my mind that empowering the thought police is a bad idea.
yebat' Putin
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will state for the record, that my way is about as impractical as yours... but since you asked
Ya know DC,, I re read my post asking you for a better solution and I may have come across as snotty.. that wasn't my intent.. sorry bout that..
Join the club., go to one of my early posts on this thread and I said,, I doubt we could pull my plan off... and I gave my reasons..
In a way however, if we could pull my plan off, then in a funny kinda way, everyone would be required to NOT MISLEAD... now, in a round about way, doesn't that kinda contribute to a more informed public  Funny how that works isn't it.. 
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as I said, neither of which is going to happen... that doesn't change my mind that empowering the thought police is a bad idea.
That's your interrpretation of what I meant,, but that's not at all what I meant. I'm not for empowering the thought police either.
I am however, in favor of making people stop misleading the public.
I recognize it's a fine line, but it's one that we need to fight like hell to make sure we don't cross.. I'm with you there.. 100%
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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