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I forgot about the FB spot... Vickers is pretty good... Thanks Savage for that one too.. 
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I probably started that post 5 minutes before yours came up. I should've done it like you. 
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We would have never come out of the darkness under Savage based on the way he ran things.
You can't undermine the coach's authority, period. And you can't build a team with players that don't fit a system.
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Quote:
Savage did more harm than good for this organization in terms of player relations, media leaks, not acquiring personnel for a system and generally being an egomaniac.
I'll leave it at that.
That's good. So will I.
But somehow I thought we were talking about player acquisition like depth, the draft and free agents.
#gmstrong
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I said that Savage wasn't all good. But you're latter argument is crap.
Wimbley fits the 3--4 better than anything else.
Hall fits the 3-4.
Rubin fits the 3-4.
Rogers fits the 3-4.
D'Qwell can be good in anything.
McGinnest fits the 3-4.
C. Williams fits the 3-4.
Robaire fits the 3-4.
Shaun Smith fits the 3-4.
JT, Steinbach, Hank, McKinney, and Jamal fit the zone blocking scheme.
Very few of Savage's players didn't fit the scheme we were trying to run. You're entire argument is based of off Beau Bell, whom Savage did make a mistake on. Every other draft pick and signing did fit our scheme. Some of them didn't turn out, but they all fit the scheme.
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Quote:
I said that Savage wasn't all good. But you're latter argument is crap.
Wimbley fits the 3--4 better than anything else.
Hall fits the 3-4.
Rubin fits the 3-4.
Rogers fits the 3-4.
D'Qwell can be good in anything.
McGinnest fits the 3-4.
C. Williams fits the 3-4.
Robaire fits the 3-4.
Shaun Smith fits the 3-4.
JT, Steinbach, Hank, McKinney, and Jamal fit the zone blocking scheme.
Very few of Savage's players didn't fit the scheme we were trying to run. You're entire argument is based of off Beau Bell, whom Savage did make a mistake on. Every other draft pick and signing did fit our scheme. Some of them didn't turn out, but they all fit the scheme.
I'm not basing the entire argument off of Beau Bell. There's more than one 3-4 system just like there's more than one 4-3 system.
Savage may have been drafting more with the Ravens 3-4 in mind than the Crennel 3-4 in mind...or was trying to mix and match and it didn't work out well.
But the proof was in the records and how horrible the Browns defense was despite trying to "add 3-4 pieces." Statistically, our best defense was in 2005 despite having more talent in 2008. Is that coaching? Or is it poor talent acquisition? Hell, Savage did next to NOTHING to help the corner situation in 2008...didn't he realize that the nickel is essentially a starting position?
I think it's both. With no real veterans to push the young guys (like Hood, Mosley, Bowens, Barton), talent didn't develop.
The exception to the rule is Jurevicius...and he wanted to come home.
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Give me a specific example of someone not fitting a scheme.
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I think this is the Camp Injuries thread, so this will prolly fit here. Quote:
Cleveland Browns Steptoe out for season with torn labrum
by By Mary Kay Cabot
Saturday August 08, 2009, 10:15 PM
Browns third-year receiver Syndric Steptoe suffered a torn labrum during Saturday's practice and is out for the season, a league source close to the situation told the Plain Dealer. The Browns are not confirming or commenting on injuries during training camp. Steptoe, who was carted off during the session clutching his shoulder, has been working as a reserve receiver and kick returner.
The Browns seventh-round pick in 2007, Steptoe started five of his 16 games last season, catching 19 passes for 182 yards. He also returned three kickoffs for an average of 20.3 yards and two punts for an average of 11.5 yards.
web page
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Actual news about a camp injury in a camp injury thread ? Amazing, and I thought i was in the tailgate section...........
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Quote:
Give me a specific example of someone not fitting a scheme.
Savage was an abomination as a GM.
Awful. As in Terrible.
He might have been OK in a situation where the Owner and Coach were in a position of strength.
But we're in arguably the worst ownership position and I'd argue that Crennel coached from a position of great weakness. It's a thread on it's own so I won't expound.
Savage though was a travesty of a GM. He's simply not a leader. He's a scout. And he's not that great as a scout either.
But from a face of the franchise........
We got to the point where we made press releases attributable to no one. 
As in the Cleveland Browns say something but don't ask us about it. We're unavailable.
Our owner is in Europe with the other futbol team he bought.
We have a scout as GM that is on the road and we have a living breathing version of a milk dud as a HC....don't bother talking to anyone for your story.
I can't remember a team that went through this.
We have a loser as an owner and we can't change that. Cross your fingers everyone....still.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
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Hadnot for opener? A source said Rex Hadnot, who suffered a torn left medial collateral ligament in practice Thursday, could be ready in time for the opener Sept. 13 against the Vikings at home. Mangini declined to comment on the report in The Plain Dealer that Hadnot has a torn MCL. At first, it was feared he might have a torn anterior cruciate ligament and be lost for the season. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/08/todays_scrimmage_tests_entire.html
Go Browns!!!
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Sorry to see Steptoe lost. I thought he might make a run at one of the back roster positions.
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Good news to hear about Hadnot, nothing worse than being forced to sit out a season due to an injury.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Legend
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Quote:
We would have never come out of the darkness under Savage based on the way he ran things.
You can't undermine the coach's authority, period. And you can't build a team with players that don't fit a system.
I believe this is basically true, but you also have to (had to) be smart enough to pick real football players that you can build a system AROUND, i.e. employ your men in accordance with their capabilities.
Then you combine the low, or no stress aura of a coach like The RAC, and you got what you had.
Not really an argument from me, just a viewpoint. Savage and Crennel did get the team to within the Bengal game of a playoff and Anderson blew that.
At my age and fan longevity, I just hold my "here's hoping" breath.
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Quote:
Give me a specific example of someone not fitting a scheme.
Jeff Garcia
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Quote:
Give me a specific example of someone not fitting a scheme.
Beau Bell
Kevin Shaffer
Last edited by AndraDavis4MVP; 08/09/09 08:50 AM.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Quote:
Quote:
Give me a specific example of someone not fitting a scheme.
Beau Bell
Kevin Shaffer
Corey Williams
Hell, Andra Davis too, he had 4 years to replace him.
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Quote:
Quote:
Give me a specific example of someone not fitting a scheme.
Jeff Garcia
Kaluma maiava? From the still bitter about follett club.
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Hell, Andra Davis too, he had 4 years to replace him.
Easy there, that's a wild and reckless accusations.
Last edited by AndraDavis4MVP; 08/09/09 09:27 AM.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Quote:
Give me a specific example of someone not fitting a scheme.
Babatunde oshinowo
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Quote:
Babatunde oshinowo
I thought Baba was more of a guy who just didn't pan out, wasn't going to make it in any system. A swing and a miss in the 6th rd.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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J/C... Another perfectly decent thread hijacked  [There are some other perfectly decent places to discuss the merits of Savage's performance - just not in the "Injury Thread"] Nice to hear about Hadnot. Knock on wood - I'd like to keep our health mojo going through TC and the season. 
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Quote:
Quote:
Give me a specific example of someone not fitting a scheme.
Jeff Garcia
Butch Davis brought in Garcia. Savage sent him packing.
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Quote:
Quote:
Give me a specific example of someone not fitting a scheme.
Babatunde oshinowo
A hulking NT for the 3-4........ That's a cornerstone of the 3-4 scheme. Or are you just looking to blame Savage for a 6th round pick (which was an extra pick PS acquired) that didn't pan out?
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Quote:
Another perfectly decent thread hijacked [There are some other perfectly decent places to discuss the merits of Savage's performance - just not in the "Injury Thread"]
I heay 'ya. But what can you do? Threads go madly in all directions when people start stream-of-consciousness posting.
Last edited by lampdogg; 08/09/09 10:42 AM.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Quote:
Andra Davis
Another Butch draft pick, not PS.
PS did draft LB's though:
Speegle
McMillin
L Williams
DQ Jackson
Hall
Bell
KW
And five of them are still on the roster. The only cuts were the 5th and 6th rounders.
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Crennel's opinion on the players drafted didn't matter... I'm sure if Crennel had his particular draft board together, and ranked player A over player B... it didn't matter b/c Savage had player C ranked over A...
That was the problem..
No point in naming players brought in... Name the ones that were NOT brought in..
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Quote:
Crennel's opinion on the players drafted didn't matter... I'm sure if Crennel had his particular draft board together, and ranked player A over player B... it didn't matter b/c Savage had player C ranked over A...
That was the problem..
No point in naming players brought in... Name the ones that were NOT brought in..
I think you're forgeting RAC's own words after we drafted KW. RAC stated that he wanted an outside rusher over a big NT. KW was RAC's pick and he got them. That seems to make it pretty clear that Savage was getting what RAC was asking for.
In fact, I've never heard it anywhere but on this board (without any links to support it) that RAC was unhappy with who PS was drafting. If you have an article I'd appreciate a link because that seems like it would be a pretty important comment. It seems like maybe it's just a "Dawgtalkers consensus" that's being positioned as substantiated.
For all the criticism of Savage's drafting and FA work I still haven't seen anyone nail down an important pick (first three rounds) where Phil drafted someone that RAC opposed or just flat out didn't fit the scheme.
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Quote:
Quote:
Another perfectly decent thread hijacked [There are some other perfectly decent places to discuss the merits of Savage's performance - just not in the "Injury Thread"]
I heay 'ya. But what can you do? Threads go madly in all directions when people start stream-of-consciousness posting.
It's a chat board. Topics generate sub-topics. I don't see the harm. Just as counterproductive is starting a thread for nothing on some stray stream-of consciousness thought. 
Anyway, it appears the injury bug has perhaps been sprayed by some better off-season conditioning, intensity and attitude chemicals.
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Savage at the draft said he asked Romeo Crennel which area he wanted to fortify more and Crennel said the pass rush. Drafting Wimbley became an even higher priority when the Browns failed to sign Kalimba Edwards, a free agent linebacker who decided to return to the Lions in March of 2006 rather than sign with the Browns. article
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And if Wimbley pans out, Savage will get a lot of credit for having made that move. Nothing wrong with that,....
Last edited by OoooRahJoice; 08/09/09 11:38 AM.
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Wimbley was a RAC pick... I can agree with that...
How long did it take to get a nose tackle?
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Ok this thread has turned around 
btw Steptoe has a torn Labrum and out for the season. No injury is good but it might have happened at the right time for Steptoe if we put him on our IR...he gets paid for the season...does rehab and gets a new start in next years camp. He was falling behind the 2 Rookies, Hubbard, Legget and Cribbs all having very good camps.
On the Savage thing...couldn't resist.
Rogers, Robaire n Shaun Smith, Corey Williams...how do they "FIT" the 3-4...they came here as VETS without one rep in the 3-4 Defense. Hmmm looks like Savage was building up his future 4-3 Defense.
DQ? does not fit the prototype 3-4 ILB
Just cause these guys have adapted to the 3-4 D cause of their talent.
On the Zone Blocking Scheme...RAC was from the school of Parcells ergo s Power Base Blocking Scheme...again looks like Savage was throwing that down RAC's throat as well.
I am on record to state I will always be grateful for Savage bringing TALENT FINALLY to the Expansion Browns. But he was building something else...not what RAC wanted or NEEDED - Savage wanted to take it all over and get his HC in here...His D and he hinted several times that it was a 4-3. And got his Offense in with the ousting of Mo - Davidson was ousted too but as a compromise to RAC...then Savage took the O building process over.
RAC was too nice and let Savage walk all over him.
But not a day goes by that I don't thank Savage for finally getting us a foundation of real NFL TALENT on this team to build a great team.
As for M/K - two things. We got that good foundation so that Depth and Familiarity with Mangini is what this team had to build.
Also we were getting close to Cap - unlike in past seasons with Savage there was mega cap space to make multi-big investments in FA...we didn't have that luxery this year and less need to go for it anyway.
As always JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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RAC brought in Ted Washington to fill the spot initially. - Another RAC pick. Phil used the extra 6th from KW/Ngata to draft Osho. He also drafted Rubin who has earned crazy praise by this FO's standards.
And then the Shaun Rogers trade - which in hindsight was outright theft.
Considering what he had to work with I think PS filled a lot of holes fairly quickly.
BTW- was there a FA NT that you felt we should have pursued that we didn't?
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Quote:
Rogers, Robaire n Shaun Smith, Corey Williams...how do they "FIT" the 3-4
How does Shaun Rogers fit in the 3-4?? 
Gee, I don't know, - How does Superman fit in the Justice League? 
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I was at practice yesterday, Steptoe must have went down late. Hard to figure out how, there wasn't really much contact going on at all. I left a half hour early when the rain started coming down pretty hard. It had been raining since before practice started.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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"Gee, I don't know, - How does Superman fit in the Justice League?"
In your eagerness to knock me down a notch " "
You come out with simple ignorance. I'm not stating that anyone of those pick ups will not conform to the 3-4 and be a positive. I'm stating that not a one of them ever played in the 3-4 to be a known factor that they would FIT...
Yes, DUH, Rogers would fit in any defense cause he's a freak of nature. But we are talking about somebody who would best serve in a 4-3 ONE GAP attack Defense or 3-4 One Gap Attack then RAC's disciplined 2 gap read and react Defense...You really think he fits that to a tee? 
I know what I'm talking about...but yeah thanks for the inference that I don't have a clue 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
I know what I'm talking about...but yeah thanks for the inference that I don't have a clue
There's nothing I could ever say that would top "How does Rogers fit in a 3-4?" 
I mean, that's just - - - Wow
You go ahead and defend it though
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But he named four players, the entire starting DL plus a backup, to make his point and you picked ONE player out of that in an attempt to dispel his entire point. Great piece of work there.
#gmstrong
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Actually,that was a question not a statement.And a very good one at that.
Obviously Rogers has the talent to play any scheme,but the knock on him was motivation and discipline,and it takes all three to play NT.
Rogers is the prototypical 1-gap 4-3 tackle,as EO said.He,and the other d-linemen,were all 4-3 guys,and how they would transition to the 34 was in the end guess work.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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