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j/c,...the shame of it is,...if Quinn succeeds -- and I sense there are some posters who actually don't want this to happen because they hate Notre Dame, or whatever,... --
Ah, come on man. You're sounding like BE and his griping about people not liking his drops because he went to Michigan.
I'm not talking about me,...I actually know people personally who do not want Quinn to succeed because he is from Notre Dame.
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You see, I'm a Browns fan. I don't care who the qb is - what I care about is winning. Yeah, imagine that. I want "W's". That makes me bad?
No that does not make you bad I honestly believe that is what everyone here wants but for you to be so negative after one loss ( by the way a loss that most knowledgeable people expected) is ridiculous! :crazy
I hope you do realize that after 4 starts Quinn and Anderson have the very same win /loss record. Give it a little time dude I'm sure if you step back and look at this year as a fact finding mission in stead of a must win season your blood pressure will be alot better. 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Just as if he never has a rating above 75, there will be a bunch that will forever proclaim a good QB that wasn't given a chance. There are several on THIS board to at do the same about bums named Couch and Frye.
I'll never think of Couch as a bum (this is a QB thread so what the hell and besides, you brought him up)  .
Couch got his chance, he sure did... and took a beating, suffered shoulder/arm/elbow injuries that IMO limited his career. he threw into double coverage, yup... held on to the ball too long, blahblahblah... but he still took us to the playoffs and won a lot of games with garbage talent around him, Couch was a clutch QB for the Browns. No one will convince me otherwise because facts are facts, my friend.
I've said my piece on the DA/BQ thing...time will tell the tale.
BTW knight of brown made a good post about DA....
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Now that is sad.
I was excited when we first drafted BQ because he was highly rated, and we had no one else. Then, a QB showed up who won 10 games, and threw 29 TD passes. I think that is a pretty good QB.
I am seeing some slight changes in thinking, as a general pattern. Two years ago, it was BQ HAS more upside, there IS more potential there. Now it is SHOULD have, SHOULD be. This to me is more rational, I have seen absolutely NO demonstration that he IS better, only hope based on expectation. Maybe he is the better QB, I hope so cause beating 10 wins and 29 TD's makes us a winner.
I just have seen no evidence of this greatness, my best guess from what I have seen as average to slightly above. Now, the other guy has shown me top 5 QB play. He has also had some bad games., But, just as I have not seen on-field evidence of BQ's "greatness", I have not seen on-field evidence of DA's "lousiness".
One guy hasn't got it done yet, but might be able to in the future. One guy has got it done, and might be able to do it again. I'll take option #2.
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As you can see, none of them sucked. A couple were average, one was excellent, and the last posted one of the best seasons a QB has ever had.
But you can go ahead and continue to look for all the upside in Quinn's numbers and hope that he's the one. I hope for the Browns' sake that he proves you correct, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
So you are using a minimum of 5 starts to judge the others, but you are judging Quinn after one game  You guys are becoming a punchline with your assinine comparisons
Absolutely not. I said about a week ago on here that I hope that he gets to start all 16 games, barring injury, because I don't want him looking over his shoulder every time he makes a mistake. I stand by that. That doesn't mean, however, that I'm fine with him continuing to play as poorly as he did this past Sunday.
It's no secret that I prefer DA's style of play to Quinn's, but beyond that I'm a Browns fan and I want to see a team put Ws on the board. I don't really care if its DA or BQ or Toad's buddy Garo throwing the ball. That's why I hope that in the 16 games he should be given, Brady is able to develop into the QB that his supporters claim he is. At this point I'm skeptical but I hope he proves me wrong.
If you want to talk about asinine, talk about Attack saying that Kurt Warner sucked his first year as a starter.
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Couch would STILL be our QB if DropCutt hadn't dropped it,....and I would have NO problem with that.
However, Couch should have never been drafted. The best offensive lineman available, or a defender, should have been the first pick.
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jc..
Facts:
1) We here have no input into who the QB is or will be.
2) We should support the team, regardless of individual players.
We may think the RG and/or RT suck but you don't see half a dozen threads analyzing every detail about them.
Lets move past this 10 year repeat of complaints, "next year", and crud. Let's provide some positive support to the team, and see what happens. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Setting aside all the debate, the fact that there is a legitimate reason even to HAVE a debate is telling.
But is there a legitimate reason to HAVE a debate?
We see Quinn play one game vs. a very tough opponent that no one expected us to win, (I doubt that the Vikes were one of the 2 games Mort expected us to win this year), and the gate to the debate castle swings wide open and a crowd rushes in. So after one game it's a fact that there is a legitimate reason to have a debate? After one game?
He may never have another game that bad in his career. He may never have another game that good in his career. But for the sake of all that's football holy let's at least wait until after the second game for crying out loud.
And you turned out to be the pot stirrer. 
There was a gaggle of people whining about his performance. But then you started the "maybe a mistake" thread and now the discussion is how many games, how many losses, how many yards, how many TDs, how many INTs, how many deep passes, how many bad throws, how many fumbles, how many misreads until we pull him out and call him a bust. Jeesch.
I saw your thread and before I had a chance to respond it slammed into the wall of 8 pages and got locked so fast I missed out. Have you ever been charged with inciting a riot? 'Cause you'd be good at it.
Oh well, at least the board is active.
#gmstrong
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But is there a legitimate reason to HAVE a debate?
Let's see..........Mangini and the organization saw plenty of reason to have one, regardless of whether or not there was a favorite. So to answer your question: Yes, there is.
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And you turned out to be the pot stirrer.
Can't have a revolution with just one person
The point being that do you believe with one post I hold enough sway to bring every Quinn-Questioner (hey, I made a new term  ) out of hiding?
At the risk how it'll sound, you give me too much credit my friend
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Oh well, at least the board is active.
That reeks of a statement to which my appropriate response would be:
You're welcome. 
'Dub, seriously, Quinn has done precious-little since he's been here to warrant a calming-of-the-storm. I wished he had, but he hasn't. They will be starting threads or taking shots regardless of what kind of post I make. Hell, in a thread titled "What kind of shoes do you wear?" Someone would say they wear the same kind as Quinn, someone will bash'em for being a Homer, then the entire debate rages forthwith.
As Billy Joel once sang............"We didn't start the fire." 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Da was "never" given a fair chance here...NEVER
Have you just started watching Cleveland Browns football this year?
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DA won more 10 games in 2007...that is the most wins in a single season for a Browns QB since the 94 season. Yes..he won the most games for the Browns in 13 years!
And as I said at that time it was a one hit wonder and have not been proven wrong since! 
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Da showed more in his 1st game then Quinn has shown in his 1st 4....Remember the rumble down the sidelines in Kansas city? He made plays and won that game....DA is a big time player...Big players make big plays in big games
First off Anderson did not start that game you are refering to so far as saying it was his first game compared to Quinn's first game is wrong but if you want to go there than we shall. 
In the KC game Andersons numbers were:
cmp%57.1 td's 2 int 1 QB rating 95.5
In the Denver game Quinns numbers were:
cmp%65.7 2 td's int 0 QB rating 104.3
And both were wins. Amazing how you can make a false statement and actually believe it. 
After that your post became very unreliable and your facts are slanted. Maybe you have convinced your self but some of the rest of us will rely on the true facts and our own eyes! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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True facts like us beating Denver in the game BQ started against them? 
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Corpus: I made no false statement Brady Quinn "Lost" the Denver game in 2008...sorry to burst your bubble bud  Brady Quinn made no big plays in that Denver game..no big game changing plays...he couldn't even move the ball against a 30th ranked prevent Defense. I also have a problem with people who state such things as: Quote:
We see Quinn play one game vs. a very tough opponent that no one expected us to win,
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I hope you do realize that after 4 starts Quinn and Anderson have the very same win /loss record. Give it a little time dude I'm sure if you step back and look at this year as a fact finding mission in stead of a must win season your blood pressure will be alot better.
I am sick and tired of accepting losing, I WILL NOT accept losing...these people are professionals..losing is unacceptable!.......This year is not a fact finding mission, it is a NFL season, its a game winning mission.
Herm Edwards stated:
YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME! YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will not sit around and let Brady Quinn, Anderson, or any other player or coach sit around and tank a season(people pay hard earned money for Browns games and stuff) because they think its the best thing
You play to win....you put your best players on the field and you try to win....this is absurd that people want to sit back and tank a season for Brady's sake...my God has everyone gone insane! You kick scratch, fight, and claw but you do everything possible to win for petes sake, you expect to win
If the city had this mentality maybe we would get somewhere....
There is no superior opponenet....any given Sunday....a highly "under-rated" New England Patriots team with a no name Qb named Tom Brady beat the Great Show on Turf in the Super Bowl one year...a team with Super Bowl expereince, a team heavily favored...there is no superior team...you play to win
don't give me this garbage about "nobody expected us to win" garbage...you expect to win, and you play to win, and if not, then I don't want that player on my freaking team...if you not here to play to win, get out....quit with this "we aren't expected to win" garbage......
I hope our coach doesn't talk like that, my god that might be the problem....
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Setting aside all the debate, the fact that there is a legitimate reason even to HAVE a debate is telling.
But is there a legitimate reason to HAVE a debate?
We see Quinn play one game vs. a very tough opponent that no one expected us to win, (I doubt that the Vikes were one of the 2 games Mort expected us to win this year), and the gate to the debate castle swings wide open and a crowd rushes in. So after one game it's a fact that there is a legitimate reason to have a debate? After one game?
He may never have another game that bad in his career. He may never have another game that good in his career. But for the sake of all that's football holy let's at least wait until after the second game for crying out loud.
And you turned out to be the pot stirrer.
There was a gaggle of people whining about his performance. But then you started the "maybe a mistake" thread and now the discussion is how many games, how many losses, how many yards, how many TDs, how many INTs, how many deep passes, how many bad throws, how many fumbles, how many misreads until we pull him out and call him a bust. Jeesch.
I saw your thread and before I had a chance to respond it slammed into the wall of 8 pages and got locked so fast I missed out. Have you ever been charged with inciting a riot? 'Cause you'd be good at it.
Oh well, at least the board is active.
ddubia, you are on it dude!
The last person I expected (even though he is a know it all pain in the behind) to start a sky is falling thread was Toad. He has always preached patience and giving the management a chance to put they're plan into action which takes time (and I have always hated that line of thinking) but never have I went off after one loss against a team we were not even in the same league with.
If any of you can give Toad a good psychiatrist number it would be nice to get the old Toad back(even if he was a pain).
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Toad mentioned Quinn's accuracy & his arm strength and how long will we be patient, more or less. He invited folks to debate them, therefore I don't see the problem. Nothin' wrong with this thread, ohter than it being about the quarterback issue.
gmstrong -----------------
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Sorry dude you are right we did not win that game( I looked at the Bill"s game below it) and your assesment that Quinn lost that game is wrong, but the fact remains that Quinn did out play Anderson in that first game as stated by these facts: Anderson vers KC: cmp% 57.1 2 td's 1 int QB rating of 95.5 Quinn vers. Dever: cmp%65.7 2 td's 0 int QB rating of 104.3 How does that come out to Anderson played better in his first game than Quinn did in his first four? I can admit when I'm wrong, can you big guy?
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Toad mentioned Quinn's accuracy & his arm strength and how long will we be patient, more or less. He invited folks to debate them, therefore I don't see the problem. Nothin' wrong with this thread, ohter than it being about the quarterback issue.
Got no problem with the tread it is the timing that sucks! A team that is rebuilding as Toad has said many, many times needs more that one game to judge!
That is where I have the problem with a VERY KNOWLEGABLE poster starting a thread like this. Unbelieveable, and the fact that another intellegent poster like you would buy into this line of thinking is also unblieveable! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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OK lets look at facts: The game against the Vikes was not as bad as some of you want it to look like. We had our first offensive TD since week 10 of last season. Some say it was garbage time but we had alot of garbage time in those last 6 games also.
Now on to the fact that it was Brady Quinn's 4th start. Now to compare apple's to apple's I have looked up other comparable QB"s numbers after 4 starts.
Brady Quinn: (keeping in mind the brken finger)
cmp% 52.3 ypa 5.82 td 3 int 3 QB rating 68.0 win/loss 1-3
Derek Anderson:
cmp% 56.5 ypa 7.2 td 8 int 8 QB rating 74.3 win/loss 1-3
JaMarcus Russell:
cmp% 55.5 ypa 6.4 td 4 int 1 QB rating 85.1 win/loss 1-3
Trent Edwards:
cmp% 67.9 ypa 6.88 td 1 int 4 QB rating 73.1 win/loss 3-1
I think if you want to judge a QB by his first four complete starts ( apples to apples being these players came into the league in 2007 except for Anderson)
then Trent Edwards has the best numbers over all.
But my question is the rest are so close can we accually judge by the first four starts?
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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it is the timing that sucks! A team that is rebuilding as Toad has said many, many times needs more that one game to judge!
Why Corpus............you wound me sir!
I'm giving Quinn time...........6 games, to be more precise
(or to be exacting I'm giving Quinn two years on the bench to learn and 10 starts)
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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This thread needs to be deleted. 
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This thread needs to be deleted.
a lot of threads on this board need to be deleted.. everyone thinks the sky is falling because because Quinn had a bad game and that Obama is President on this board...
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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I just read through all 4 pages of this thread, I still don't understand the obsession some people have with his royal noodleness. Anyone who knows football can see that Derek Anderson is the better quarterback. No worries though, he will be in there by week 4. His royal noodleness is going to play his way out of the job.
![[Linked Image from i161.photobucket.com]](http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t215/nick_ogrin/ogdawg.jpg) Thanks NaTaS "In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope."
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it is the timing that sucks! A team that is rebuilding as Toad has said many, many times needs more that one game to judge!
Why Corpus............you wound me sir!
I'm giving Quinn time...........6 games, to be more precise
(or to be exacting I'm giving Quinn two years on the bench to learn and 10 starts)
We're all on edge for how long a message board poster is giving the starter.
Please tell me when you are for sure for sure.
And on a side note did you score or not???
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I am actually hoping to see Quinn do well in the next several games not because of the Browns.........No, I just want to see how Toad spins it to look like he was Quinn's biggest fan.......
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Unbelieveable, and the fact that another intellegent poster like you would buy into this line of thinking is also unblieveable!
Well, we must have alot of dumbass posters then, because once again a QB thread is getting serious mileage. 
gmstrong -----------------
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Well, we must have alot of dumbass posters then
You're just picking up on this?.........
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I was responding to your assertion that those four QBs (Cutler, Warner, Palmer, Bulger) "sucked" at the beginning of their careers. I posted the numbers they put up in their first shots as "the man". Warner got a full season. Cutler got the last five games of a season. Palmer got the first 13 weeks before getting injured. Bulger got 7 starts throughout the middle of a season as an injury replacement before getting injured himself.
Tell me again how many starts Quinn has compared to every successful QB again...HE HAD 2 healthy starts last year and one now...3..thats it..Sunday will be 4 ...so tell me how you can draw any conclusion from 2 games last year and the opener this year..can you do it?
Stop trying to shove a unbalanced comparision in my view..I'll shoot it down...personally I don't need to compare it , I just need to see him performance then I know what he's about..I give him week 6 ...I'll know by then.. ..
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Let's see..........Mangini and the organization saw plenty of reason to have one, regardless of whether or not there was a favorite. So to answer your question: Yes, there is.
Even U should know what the QB comp was about...not about debates but a clean slate as to which one was qualified to be the starter..thats all it was about.Mangini needed to see it for himself...It really is that simple..
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Well, we must have alot of dumbass posters then
You're just picking up on this?.........
It takes a while to see the pattern emerge. Lose a game, the sky is falling. Win a game, SUPERBOWL BABY! The wide swings of emotion take their toll after a while. It's enough to make some of us drink and post.
Then you have the fans who have that superior sense of hindsight and can predict the future with the absolute sureness of the prophets of the Old Testament...
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Let's see..........Mangini and the organization saw plenty of reason to have one, regardless of whether or not there was a favorite. So to answer your question: Yes, there is.
Even U should know what the QB comp was about...not about debates but a clean slate as to which one was qualified to be the starter..thats all it was about.Mangini needed to see it for himself...It really is that simple..
And to gauge/invoke potential interest in trades.
Pretty simple. There are those that (by their posts) expected Quinn to come out and go 28/32 for 339 yards and 3 scores against the Vikes and who seem to have never observed anything else other than Derek Anderson highlight films.
The first thread was a waste of time as is this one....I won't err another time by re-opening it, because I see we have come full circle back to Tim Couch again.
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Blame toad - he started the Couch talk.
gmstrong -----------------
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But he was benched for the Savior from ND.
He was benched for some kid from Akron too.
yebat' Putin
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J/C--And I lied, I re-opened the thread already.... For whoever said thanks for making the board active again....is it really?? In the current gameday forum there is one count it 1 football thread, discussing being able to move the ball. The others are BS banter threads as in the ever-important countdown to KO, Who's going, Viewing Map of games, and the ever popular Predict the Score thread. People aren't talking football.....this ridiculous QB conversation is not football....it should be obvious to anyone with any cranial capacity that the Vikes game was a L and since.......never mind. I'm not wasting any more time on this ludicrous non issue....and I won't waste others that wish to enjoy this thread with my rant. Carry on. Thank you. Have a nice day. Love, Shep
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Tell me again how many starts Quinn has compared to every successful QB again...HE HAD 2 healthy starts last year and one now...3..thats it..Sunday will be 4 ...so tell me how you can draw any conclusion from 2 games last year and the opener this year..can you do it?
Stop trying to shove a unbalanced comparision in my view..I'll shoot it down...personally I don't need to compare it , I just need to see him performance then I know what he's about..I give him week 6 ...I'll know by then.. ..
I'm not comparing BQ to any of them. I am simply rebutting your statement that those quarterbacks "pretty much sucked" early in their careers as starting QBs in the NFL.
Someone commented that BQ put up better numbers than they did on Sunday. Several people, myself included, replied that, because they all have proven track records of success the occasional stinker can be overlooked. You responded to that saying that all of those proven QBs who were outperformed by BQ this past Sunday all "pretty much sucked" when they first got the starting job. I provided evidence to the contrary, Warner being the most extreme example.
I am not predicting his entire career based on a four game set, but Im not going to cut him the same amount of slack for a bad game last week as I would for Kurt Warner or Marc Bulger or Palmer or Cutler, because those guys have proven that they can win at the NFL level. BQ hasn't proven that yet.
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Last thing I'll say to you on this..U never once listed a game by game chart of what they did...or went back and charted their first 3 starts would have been logical..yet you're patting yourself on your backside like you came up with this illuminating revelation about Quinn..and like I said they weren't the QB's being discussed prior to your post..
That a almost a full season of starts in mosts cases.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,365
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,365 |
Quote:
Then you have the fans who have that superior sense of hindsight and can predict the future with the absolute sureness of the prophets of the Old Testament...
Hey leave me out of this Jeep
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
Didn't read any of the responses...just the Thread opener.
 wow - the sky is falling I see? lol
here is what I see.
Game 1 new offense...BQ relatively inexperienced with 3 starts (3rd start one he should not have made due to injury and wasn't an asset of experience).
New Browns on the starting 13. 11 plus 3rd down back n 3rd WR.
Mack, Womack, St. Clair, Royal, Cribbs, Furrey, Davis - more than half.
Playing our first game against one of the best Defenses in the NFL.
Did BQ play well? I don't think so - did he play that bad as some are running around claiming? No where close.
How soon we forget almost ALL games against stellar defenses (except for one) Less than 50% accuracy. Multiple INTs...QB ratings of 19 or 25, Pick 6's.
The good I did see from BQ...ability to read defenses and audible well.
Ability to move the chains with Accurate passing. 60% on a bad day...hmmm
I did see the Browns go into the half with the lead in points and the lead in Time Of Possession. approximately 16-14
I didn't see too many BAD DECISIONS - even the one INT. Good read, correct decision - BQ got rid of the ball sooner than expected (question should be asked was it necessary to throw it then? Was it pressure or panic?) I saw pressure so he threw it to the Spot his WR should be...and he threw it with Air under the ball well before BE was close to the spot - but the way I would want a QB to throw and let the WR adjust to the THROW and make the play.
What I saw was BE make an adjustment which probably was in his right - but he had no clue the ball was already thrown!! I do blame BE on one thing...never looking back to the QB to know he was in trouble to have a shot at adjusting to a ball (btw that throw was like any pass made by Holcomb over 20 yards...he threw it early and to a spot) BE never, never looked at his QB while making a double move and seeing a Safety missing...hmmm wonder what that safety was doing? covering zone for a blitzer? or Blitzing himself?
This was the defining play of the game. BQ should take the brunt of the blame on the play...he is the QB. But was it a bonehead move...not making the correct decision and thew into double or triple coverage? Was it a play where if the two BE n BQ had been working together all Preseason with the Starting reps...would have been on the same page???
We went from 13-10 score to 24-13...in a matter of 3 series....
Vikes just less than 5 minute drive to open the half.
Browns...3 n out on 2 good runs and the INT.
Vikes another long drive where we saw 20+ yards for running plays emerge.
Defense never playing more than a half in preseason...sucking wind now with the way the 2nd half started...never to get it back together till it was Waaayy to late.
BQ deserves the season??? now it don't work that way. The team deserves BQ as the starter for the season! Thick n Thin. Honeymoon...over and talk of when to bring in DA  rediculous. And I could imagine DA against this D that we faced...some of ya are dreaming if you think he would have brought his Bengal magic of 07 - Giants of 08...best game by our OL - DA didn't have to move one inch that game! This game? ya dreamers if you think he would have been stellar. Can it be worse than a loss...no a loss is a loss.
What I see is a QB who in his worst is putting in a QB rating of what EVERY OTHER QB we ever had was around for the SEASON.
Yeah we could have won this game with a couple of "IFs" going our way. One of which would not be IF DA was QB...
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,950 |
Quote:
Hey leave me out of this Jeep
The guy who bought Mosses his first beer is normally pulled into conversations like this.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Not sure what's causing your astounding lack of reading comprehension but anyway...
I never made a comparison to BQ. Someone else did. My response to that person is easy to find. But since you asked...
Warner 3-0
Cutler 1-2
Bulger 3-0
don't remember Palmer's...the info is all readily available at NFL.com. Check it out and tell me again how Kurt Warner's 16-3, 4000+ yard Super Bowl-winning season sucked for him. Because that assertion made by you (along with like assertions regarding Palmer, Cutler, and Bulger) is what I am rebutting. Nothing at all about BQ.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
And on a side note did you score or not???
I had to stop and wonder why a sports-bar waitress gave me her number, and how many other dudes have wandered through that territory, so the answer is negatory good buddy.
To quote Stewie Griffin, I wondered how little tread was left on those tires, and if it was like throwing a hot-dog down a hallway
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Quinn talk part 2
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