|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 99
Practice Squad
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 99 |
Quote:
It doesn't matter if the owner has passion. All that matters is if he's willing to spend the money and effort to make the team better, and Lerner has.
What Lerner has failed to do has nothing with what you said, but rather with his choices in the people who make the decisions.
Pat Bowlen and Al Davis have as much passion as anyone. You see how far it's gotten those franchises. The Cowboys haven't won a playoff game this century. Jerry Jones and his passion are really working miracles there.
Our problem isn't the owner. That's a cop-out. The problem has been the people he installed to make decisions.
OVERTOAD: You hit the nail on the head and are 100% correct, it's the people HE hires, so it's also 100% his FAULT because HE HIRES THE WRONG PEOPLE !!!!!! 
He hires the HC first, HE, who knows NOTHING about coaching NFL football, picks the HC. What he should have done, but FAILED to do when given the chance, was to hire a PROVEN winner for the GM job, PIOLI and let him run the show. 
I don't know if it's his ego or what, but he just refuses to hire a GM first and let him hire the HC. Until that happens, we will continue to see the same thing, over and over again. I believe Mangenious is more of the same and that is strike 3 for ownership. We seem destined to become the  stock of the NFL. As some of ( if not ) the loyalist fans in the NFL, we deserve much more and better than this ! 
As for the money end of it, I'm fairly certain that the Browns are one of the most profitable teams in the NFL, I believe most definetly in the top 10 ( ? ). If that is indeed the case, he's getting a bigger return on his money than he could get anywhere else.
If the fans refuse to buy season tickets and PSL's, then we might get ownerships attention. It should be treated the same as the auto industry, bad product, NO sales !!!!!! 
Last edited by OldDawg42; 09/23/09 07:24 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
If the fans refuse to buy season tickets and PSL's, then we might get ownerships attention.
Attention to do............what, exactly?
Get Lerner to spend money? 
It's not about his efforts. It's about his decisions.
I won't.......I CAN'T........defend his hiring practices. I have in the past because he was a new owner with no football experience. A learning curve was expected. But that curve has now gotten past the point where poor decisions can be explained away because inexperience.
Lerner is where the buck stops now.
Blame him for the results, not the efforts.
Blame him for lack of good decisions, not lack of passion or desire to put a good product on the field.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,850 |
Quote:
Ya know GM you never have a take on anything, you never say anything, just get on and bash other posters all day?
Why not dispute what I said, with anything...guess that would require intelligent thought.
tell ya what bud. When you stop speaking out of your ass, and start using your brain and your head we will talk. How's that.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Quote:
McDaniels has been a huge screwup as a head coach.
I just REALLY wanted to bring this back up.
Have you noticed... The Broncos were supposed to be one of the bottom 5 teams in the NFL, and they are a pretty good football team. And it's not because of talent, it's because they are very well coached
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
You gotta like this kid,...he IS doing a great job. I personally know some Browns fans who aren't watching this year because we didn't hire this dude.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
I will say that Mike Nolan seems to be doing a hell of a job as well. And man Brian Dawkins is a straight stud still!! Even if he's about 120 years old in safety years.
But yes....
As I said before....
Might want to refrain from throwing the dirt on the grave until he loses a game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Welcome to the boards. Bo. I stayed out of this thread for 3 pages, because the title read "Deep Questions for Smart Fans." Then I decided, "What the heck? Might as well post anyway!" Here are my humble answers to your deep Q's... and without reading others' posts until after I submit. (Don't want to get swayed by some of the geniuses in here, y'know...) 1) What are we doing so differently that's keeping us on the bottom? 1. We are completely tearing down to the ground and rebuilding every 4 years like clockwork. Imagine a 50- story skyscraper under construction. Each time the construction co. gets to the 35th floor, a new architect gets hired to draw a new set of blueprints. As soon as his ink is dry, the demolition crew razes the building and begins pouring concrete all over aggain. Stupid, ain't it? 2) Why do we want/need a new quarterback every 2-3 years? Have we really had this bad of luck going through 10 QBs in 10 years, or is there something else making them look worse than they are? 2. A two-part answer: (1.) Same mindset about QB's as the ownership has had about coaching staffs/FO. (2.) It's "something else." Surround ANY QB with substandard players, forever learning each others' names as well as new systems, and you have what we've seen. No QB out there is gifted enough to overcome wholesale mediocrity around him. We've had our share of perfectly servicable QB's, and they've looked every bit as bad as the worst of our QB's. There's a common thread there, Bo... and it has less to do with the QB as many would like to claim. 3) What needs to happen right now for the Browns to reach 8-8?
3. 8-8? Three things: 1.Continue evaluating this year's team, while intalling your culture and building plan.. 2. Get the players ready to win 8 games or more next year. 3. Start the 2010 season at 0-0. That's what needs to happen right now. This year, 8-8 would be the result of an incredible run of outrageous luck. 2010 gives us our best chance at a legitimate 8-8. 4) Why do other teams seem to make 8-10 yard throws on 3rd and 8 and the Browns seem to throw sideways on long 3rd downs?
4. Because we play against professionals. 5) Please give me a reason to believe that these guys will eventually contend. 5. I don't know if any reason I give would be good enough to convince you, if you're already shutting down your passion. As an alternative to passion, you could try what I've done since '99. Instead of hinging my emotional stability and well-being on how well the Browns play, I've adopted them as a long-term story which is continually unfolding in front of me. Kind of like a Michener novel about a football team. That way, I get to enjoy the crazy plot twists surrounding our hapless huddle of hopeless heroes without driving myself insane in the process. It also allows me to come on these boards and enjoy the wacky antics of those lovable "Rabid Browns Fans" as part of the story, as well. Hey- works for me... but then everyone thinks I'm a little "off" anyway... Although I doubt it up front, I hope this helps. best, Clemdawg
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
I stayed out of this thread for 3 pages, because the title read "Deep Questions for Smart Fans." Then I decided, "What the heck? Might as well post anyway!"
You're too hard on yourself,...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,576
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,576 |
Quote:
I stayed out of this thread for 3 pages, because the title read "Deep Questions for Smart Fans." Then I decided, "What the heck? Might as well post anyway!"
The first step in recovery is to admit your shortcomings Just razing you Clem,, that was pretty funny.,.,,
Nice read Clem,, you are a class act my friend,, a class act.. The guy asked a set of questions, you answered them one by one, no condesending attitude, just your thoughts openly and honestly displayed for him to see and feel..
Nice job.. I guess it doesn't hurt that I agree with ya.... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
, no condesending attitude, just your thoughts openly and honestly displayed for him to see and feel..
Not exactly the way to break in the new folks is it? Replying in a non-standard fashion.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,576
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,576 |
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
1) Why do teams rise and fall but the browns stay bad? What are we doing so differently that's keeping us on the bottom?
bad picks, bad coaching, bad coaching under the head coaches. and horrible qb play. gotta have a qb in this league.
2) Why do we want/need a new quarterback every 2-3 years? Have we really had this bad of luck going through 10 QBs in 10 years, or is there something else making them look worse than they are?
because we haven't found our guy, believe me, we aren't the only team, half the teams in the league wish they had a better qb. we just gotta strike gold when we do go after one, a la the atlanta falcons who hit the lottery with matty ice, that dude can play, and he makes all the difference.
3) With every poor season, I feel like we dig a deeper trench and that right now it would take a miracle just to be mediocre. What needs to happen right now for the Browns to reach 8-8?
anderson has to step up, some of these young guys need to blossom and the defense needs to keep playing as hard as they have the last 5 games, they have given up big plays (every defense does, even the top ranked), but they just gotta keep playing hard, i think rob ryan is doing a pretty good job with these guys and they aren't getting any of the credit they deserve. they could have mailed it in yesterday, being on the road and getting nothing from your offense.
4) Why do other teams seem to make 8-10 yard throws on 3rd and 8 and the Browns seem to throw sideways on long 3rd downs?
pressure. and mediocre play from our secondary. i really think we need maybe one more good corner, and a safety. all the great defenses have great safety play, polamalu, reed, sanders, dawkins, etc.. those guys are difference makers. look at pittsburgh's d since troy polamalu went down, look at how good indy is on defense versus how they are when sanders is hurt.
5) Please give me a reason to believe that these guys will eventually contend. Every year I'm a little more despondent and a little less passionate...
1. the cardinals were the nfc's representative in the super bowl last year
2. the falcons went from being slightly above medicore with mike vick, to being kind of a laughingstock when everything went down with vick (remember parcells agreed to be the gm and backed out and they had to scramble to find a coach) to now being a pretty serious threat in the nfc.
3. the bengals are 4-1
try and remember being a football fan 6 or 7 years ago, look at who was good, look at who was bad. the raiders and bucs were in the super bowl and now both of those teams are garbage. it's the nfl. it's a beautiful thing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 18,035
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 18,035 |
Toad:
As you stated it's Lerner's hiring decisions that have been the problem.
Do you believe Lerner has the ability to perform an honest self evaluation?
The reason I ask is, if after this season the Browns win 2 to five games and look poor doing it that Lerner would be able to look in the mirror and admit to himself that he made another bad hire? Then bite the bullet and bring in a new regime.
I have tried to hold back judgment on Mangini/Kokinis but the way they have handled things so far has left me with little confidence.
As fans we are now tied to this regime through Lerner's expectation that Mangini knows how, and will turn this team into a winner. I for one am not sure that will happen.
Mangini traded the fifth player in the draft for roster trash so they could compete this year. If the trade was about building for the future (ie. a foundation) it would have included a first rounder in 2010 instead of existing Jets players.
Mangini's mold is to get over achieving players who will play "his way". Although that maybe the right way to play and the right attitude to have; it does not necessarily mean he will assemble talent.
Mangini and Kokinis have not actually demonstrated through their actions that they know anything about evaluating talent and managing the cap. They have not accomplished a thing so far in the NFL ( meaning championships). Whether they can is still to be determined.
Myself, I would feel much more confident if Mike Holmgren was the President/GM and Jon Gruden was the head coach. They have proven themselves.
As far as Kokinis what information do we have that shows "his decisions" have accomplished anything significant?
The Edwards trade was "get what you can deal". Whether we got all we could have is not known because we don't know what was offered at draft time for Edwards.
It is not fair at this point to evaluate the Kokinis/Mangini draft. I didn't have a problem with targeting Mack. I did not like what we got in trade for the 5th pick and the trade downs.
Also when you have a 30 year old back and Wells slips to 31 and you don't go after him is questionable. Then you take 2 receivers in the second round when Maluga is there and we have not stopped the run in 10 years is a question mark.
I don't even want to get into the whole QB thing. At this point it is hard for me to sit back and hope for the best. I wish I had good vibes about Kokinis or Mangini but it is all about results. I don't like what I have seen from them but I would like nothing more than to be proven 100% wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
Quote:
It is not fair at this point to evaluate the Kokinis/Mangini draft. I didn't have a problem with targeting Mack. I did not like what we got in trade for the 5th pick and the trade downs.
Also when you have a 30 year old back and Wells slips to 31 and you don't go after him is questionable. Then you take 2 receivers in the second round when Maluga is there and we have not stopped the run in 10 years is a question mark.
Mangini's drafting and trading decisions are just the tip of the iceberg... the way he coaches on gameday is worse... he simply is not playing to win... we saw it last week against the bengals which hurt us and it showed up again against the Bills...
I got slack when I argued about running on 3rd and 16 and said we should be going for the TD against the Bengals instead of settling for the FG and look what happened... We needed a TD at that point and the Bengals made us pay for it.. and again this week he does the exact same thing... and of course Jamal Lewis helped out by actually getting a first down in the process but we still ended up with only 3 pts... fortunately the Bills were not able to make us pay for it, but they very well could have..
Of course people will claim that this is all on Daboll, but I disagree... Daboll is only an arm of the body and the head(mangini) can still tell what the arm to do...
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,341
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,341 |
Quote:
Mangini traded the fifth player in the draft for roster trash so they could compete this year. If the trade was about building for the future (ie. a foundation) it would have included a first rounder in 2010 instead of existing Jets players.
Mangini's mold is to get over achieving players who will play "his way". Although that maybe the right way to play and the right attitude to have; it does not necessarily mean he will assemble talent.
Mangini and Kokinis have not actually demonstrated through their actions that they know anything about evaluating talent and managing the cap. They have not accomplished a thing so far in the NFL ( meaning championships). Whether they can is still to be determined.
Myself, I would feel much more confident if Mike Holmgren was the President/GM and Jon Gruden was the head coach. They have proven themselves.
As far as Kokinis what information do we have that shows "his decisions" have accomplished anything significant?
The Edwards trade was "get what you can deal". Whether we got all we could have is not known because we don't know what was offered at draft time for Edwards.
It is not fair at this point to evaluate the Kokinis/Mangini draft. I didn't have a problem with targeting Mack. I did not like what we got in trade for the 5th pick and the trade downs.
Also when you have a 30 year old back and Wells slips to 31 and you don't go after him is questionable. Then you take 2 receivers in the second round when Maluga is there and we have not stopped the run in 10 years is a question mark.
I don't even want to get into the whole QB thing. At this point it is hard for me to sit back and hope for the best. I wish I had good vibes about Kokinis or Mangini but it is all about results. I don't like what I have seen from them but I would like nothing more than to be proven 100% wrong.
Long time reader, not many time poster 
I have to quote the above in bold. Mangini is, what, 5 games into his regime? The defense and special teams plays hard - and real hard. The offense just cannot execute. It's like being a smack addit (I Imagine) being a Browns fan - immediate gratification.
Mangini has installed less talented players. However, they understand his system. They also seem to want to play hard. Every snap.
I don't disupte that on offense we have some major connundrums. A serviceable QB just doesn't appear. Have you seen Shaun Hill at San Fran? Anderson is far better than he will ever be. So is Quinn, even though, most wouldn't like to admit it. QB is a problem but that isn't the issue. That is not why we are poor.
Mangini is addressing the issues as he sees and if he is given time, he may be able to resolve them. Play hard, play smart, play discplined. Then upgrade the talent. I like that because it makes accountability and responsibility key. Things that Braylon and KW2 did not foster. They are stars but not able to lift men, to motivate IMHO. It's not a criticism per se. You need to bring these things along at the right pace to ensure everyone buys in and everyone gets it. It's a sum of the parts being greater than and I can see that.
So many teams think talent alone is the answer. It is not. The Patriots have not been supremely talented, above and beyond all other teams. Just great coaching, discipline, execution, a history of continuity, luck and good calls
It's as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. I want Mangini here for at least 3 years because he seems to have a plan and the team are playing damn hard for him.
Instant gratification is not as pleasing as enduring pleasure
DR
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 18,035
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 18,035 |
This is professional football. A head coach by definition is responsible for making each player reach his maximum potential. This is not elementary school where you get demerits for talking or stepping out of line. All these players who reach the NFL come from all sorts of backgrounds. They are not robots. It is up to the team that scouts and invests in them to make them successful by putting them in position to succeed.
Edwards has the ability to be a great player. The Browns failed him. We do not know what Quinn has; the organization has failed him so far. Winslow when on the field has produced. He was shipped out.
I will take Sanchez and Edwards versus what we have gotten for them.
Playing hard is important but if you don't have the talent it is not enough to win. Winning is the direct result of the decisions you make on the players you have. The players come from the draft and free agency. An organization succeeds or fails by how they manage the cap and their ability to evaluate talent. X's and O's , game plans, schemes, adjustments etc. all come with the turf. All teams have to be able to do that. When you reach the NFL level that is a given.
Mangini has brought in players who are "his guys". We didn't get future higher picks. They were brought in to compete now. They were brought in because Mangini knew them. They will play and act the Mangini way. The Browns are 1- 4. They are near the bottom in every measurable statistic.
Yes it is early. The Broncos are 5-0. New coach, new defense, different QB. The Falcons went from 3 wins to 11 last year with a new GM, new head coach, rookie QB, free agent running back. Miami look what were they have come from.
Here we are yet again turning over a roster bringing in players and look at the results. But we are suppose to sit back and wait for the extreme Mangini make over to take effect.
Instant gratification has already taken 10 years since a return to the NFL.
I get rebuilding. We have gotten plenty experience at rebuilding. The problem is we keep rebuilding with straw instead of bricks.
If we had in place a GM who has built a championship team and a head coach who has won a championship maybe I would be more confident in the process of rebuilding. Mike Holmgren, Jon Gruden, Bill Cowher, Mike Shanahan, Brian Billick are available. They all have something in common a Super Bowl. That is not to say that Josh McDaniels, Tony Sparano, Harbough, or Mangini can not do the same.
The problem I have at this point is the decisions that Mangini has made specifically the draft, free agency, the current QB situation and more than anything what I see on Sundays has not shown that this team is making progress in any direction.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
He hires the HC first, HE, who knows NOTHING about coaching NFL football, picks the HC. What he should have done, but FAILED to do when given the chance, was to hire a PROVEN winner for the GM job, PIOLI and let him run the show.
You mean the 0-5 Pioli? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Quote:
McDaniels has been a huge screwup as a head coach.
Still trying to hear what you think about McDaniels now. About to go to 6-0 on the year, with a team that was expected to be talkin' draft already.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,449
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,449 |
Hmmmmm, the thread is titled "Deep Questions for Smart Fans"....why are there so many posts in here? . . . JUST kidding folks....couldn't pass up the opportunity for a jab... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465 |
Quote:
Quote:
McDaniels has been a huge screwup as a head coach.
Still trying to hear what you think about McDaniels now. About to go to 6-0 on the year, with a team that was expected to be talkin' draft already.
For someone who tries really hard and wants everyone to think like him or think he is the Bill Belicheck of keyboard GMs, I dont know if he can admit a mistake. Maybe saying that, he will want to contradict me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177 |
Quote:
Quote:
McDaniels has been a huge screwup as a head coach.
Still trying to hear what you think about McDaniels now. About to go to 6-0 on the year, with a team that was expected to be talkin' draft already.
I keep reading, McDaniels had "alot more talent" than the Browns, which is why he felt the need to have 14 new starters, that team is his baby. 14 new starters in an extreme makeover. He got rid of the franchise QB, handled an extremely disruptive WR in Marshall, and had a very good free agent period, then ended it with a great draft, picks that he manufactured. Plus he's gonna have another extra first this year.
That defense is essentially totally new except for Champ Bailey, Dumervil and Williams are playing positions in a new defense. It comes down to decisions made last offseason, FA, coaches, Draft.
Denver is set, Josh is going to be there a real long time, and win a whole lot of games. He's alot like Billy, more so than any of the impostors from the NE tree. His dad is still the coach here in Canton, he grew up under a coach. Then went to NE at an extremley young age for the best coach in the game. Just for him to get that gig at that age means alot, then he understudied the best in the business for almost a decade. He actually knows what he's doing, he knows offense and QB's, he knows how to run a team. He not too hard, but definently not a push over.
That teams trusts him now, because it wasn't too long ago the only people trusting him was alittle group of people in Canton, Himself, and probably Billy knew as well.
Comparing McDaniels to EM is probably the best comparative for EM right now, both took over similar teams talent wise. Sure Denver won more games last season, in a much weaker division. But both had comparable defenses and offensive weapons, it was the QB that separated the two teams when they met last year.
Both coaches came in, got their staff ready, both started creating alot of roster turnover in FA and the draft. Now they are reaping the results.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Deep Questions for Smart Fans
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
