DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Eric Mangini Thread

McDonald is not afraid to tackle anyone... I agree...

Wright on the other hand is a little skeptic when it comes to tackling guys other than WR's...

I really want a safety/corner who has athleticism to have the mindset of a safety (hard hitting) but the ability to cover like a true corner...

Reason why I wanted Sean Smith of Utah last year, and move him to corner...

We need to get deeper at safety, and/or corner...

I do like Wright, McDonald, and Francies though... I was really hoping Gerard Lawson would get a shot.. I think he can succeed.

I'd like to see someone, anyone, address the main problem with this 34 defense.....linebackers. If we had even 2 real 34 backers, this defense would just be so completely different.

Our corners are always gonna look bad as long as full backs are running them over, and will struggle in coverage with are lack of pass rush. Sure they dont flatten people, but when a corner is asked to make 10 tackles game, theres a much larger problem.

Most of the past super bowl winners dont have stud/pro bowl corners, they have a great front seven. Hallmark of all good defenses front seven everytime, corners are expensive, and vastly over rated.

We need two OLB's that can stop running backs from getting to the outside...

I thought we might have one in Wimbley.. but I don't know..

I've always kind of though McDonald wasn't afraid of the hit. To me, Wright is the worst tackler of the bunch. It seems he doesn't like the contac

Wright is wrong.. he isn't the worst tackler..the problem is technique..he goes high grabbing for shoulder pad..instead of using his body and driving low/wrapping up..thats what I mean by players using their bodies..back in the day we were taught to go low on bigger players take out their thighs/legs..

McFlurry..well you really need to watch him..for one he sucks on marginal recievers getting by him..I swear I see him fall for fakes that a high schooler wouldn't..then if the guys catches it in front of him he gives ground and then gets stiff-armed ..I've never seen a DB get stiff-armed as much as he does..just watch the Broncs recievers abuse him again..he gets picked on for a reason..and it's not height..he can't play bigger..he sucks..
I want him sent to the nickle .. I repeatedly say I know corners..I understand good solid CB play..and we're not getting it..

Now time for me to say something..
Take a bad team with bad units add four draft choices and some run of the mill free agents and you get the same result.
Bad team...

Now give me a few set of draft choices and about $25 million of cap money and a set of bad groups, there is a chance I can improve a few of those groups the first year. No HC or GM is going to turn a terrible teams into a great team in one off season.
But I expected some playmakers brought it..not complimentary players..

You can put makeup and a dress on a pig, but it is still a pig. The Browns roster and team in 2008 was a terrible team, there record was 4-12.

Add nothing to the previous year's roster in playmakers on offense or defense and the result is a 2009 Browns terrible team.....

If you start with nothing (no playmakers) and add (no playmaker, obviously you end up with (no playmakers).

What don't the masses understand?

No draft choices, no money equals no change.

Again, you start with nothing, add nothing you end up with nothing.

If you don't understand that, I say it again.

2008, team has nothing in playmakers. The off season proved it. No meaningful trades. The only exception might have been Winslow. Browns get a second in 2009 and a fifth in 2010. That is all they get ..not a first and a second. The other guys, BE, DA and BQ, provided no meaningful trade value, therefore they did not get traded. So, again you start with the same thing..

The off season, add countless players, but no playmakers.

So 2008, nothing, 2009 draft and free agency just players (nothing) equals new 2009 roster, nothing.

Blame Lerner, Kokinis, & Mangini.
I do to a degree..because we turned 4 picks into 8..not a playmaker in the bunch..at least we don't see any because only one pick is starting.. Also blame Savage, Crennel and Lerner. Savage drafted players, Crennel did not develop the young players so Kokinis and Mangini had almost nothing to start with.
Nothing from nothing leaves nothing..

Let me make sure I understand... 0 + 0 = 0 ??

The browns are'nt even worth the key strokes...

DC you've touched on something that I think a lot of people seem to be overlooking.

How much of Mangini's failure thus far in the season is due to RAC and Savage?

How much of the Jets early success is due to Mangini?

I'm not taking anything away from what Ryan or Sanchez have done in New York but a lot of the talent on that team was brought in while EM was the head coach. A lot of the players were developed by EM. Is this a case of the Jets reaping the rewards of EM?

I know that EM has turned over a significant part of the roster but the main players on both sides of the ball were brough here by Savage. After they were brought here they were developed by RAC and his staff. Is Mangini just suffering from thier short comings?

These are really questions that we won't have answered for a couple of years but it definetly is too early to be discussing whether or not Mangini can turn things around. There are definatly things I would do differant but only time will tell if his plans work out.

If he can get6 this team to start showing some competitiveness and a few wins, the doubt of his coaching ability will be staved off for a while.

But if this team keeps the path it is on, the media blitz will just intensify.

When we hired Mangini I wasn't happy about it at all. The guy came with a ton of baggage, but I hoped that maybe some of it was overblown and we'd come out ok. I gotta say I really hoped I was wrong. So far it's not looking that way.

But on top of that nobody who doesn't have a proven winning track record will ever get a shot to make it here in Cleveland right now, short of immediate success. If we were 0-3 with Cowher or another similarly successful coach, I think people would be way less fired up. The scary thing is it's looking like the quality experienced coaches that are out there want nothing to do with this team.

I would agree with that take. I don't feel that 0-3 is the entire issue... not by a long shot. It is the manner in which they have gotten to 0-3.

Three complete beatings. Total dominations. Total collapses. Complete, unmitigated embarrassments -- all on the heels of finishing the last six games of the season last year in the exact same "tail between the legs" manner.

NEVER have I seen them so totally dismantled, with so little effort and fight put up, so many weeks in a row.

Well you have to consider that all of our losses have come against teams that are undefeated so far this season..that has to say something right? or maybe not..

Whats funny is,where are the Mangini supporters that thought he was the greatest addition to this franchise sine (fill in blank).
I recall around Draft time of 2009,posters on here were having a lovefest with Mangini,saying how the Browns had the best potential draft class of the AFC North....
now they are nowhere to been seen.
Funny how perception can change.

I remember some draft experts saying that so whats your point?

Everyone grab their torches and let the bloodhounds out!!
We are going after Mangini!

j/c

OMG! I just listened to Mangini's press conference from the 28th... The press was just short of brutal LMAO! They packaged questions in a professional disguise but they let him have it. IMHO he is LOST. This team has got away from him.

He sounded like he studies BB's answers and regurgitates them sporadically!

What was Randy thinking... he's a BALL BOY for cryin' out loud.

The next couple years are going to be VERY LONG...

He seriously doesn't feel they are that far away????????? He saw some things he thought they done well?????????????????? I think he's delusional!

yeah right

please post the 2007 starting lineup...who were those playmakers on that team to get 10 wins? (Im not implying we were a good team then, but we were average with an easy schedule)

who were the playmakers then? and what has changed since then?

THAT'S the equation....NOT 0+0=0

I haven't come up with a new word for a while, so I want to throw one out there .. the word is "fanbole" (pronounced FAN-buh-lee).

The definition is simply: A sweeping, exaggerated and often ludicrous sports statement that a fan makes when under the influence of an emotional sports event (and perhaps various substances).

If you see a shortstop make a diving stop and throw out a runner, you might say: "That's the greatest play I have ever seen." That would be a fanbole. It might be the greatest play you ever saw, but it probably isn't. In that moment, it feels that way.

If you see the Kansas City Chiefs give up against the Philadelphia Eagles like they did on Sunday, you might say: "This is the worst football team in the history of the NFL." That too would be a fanbole. The Chiefs are terrible, but they are probably not the worst team in NFL history. Probably not.

You call a player the worst ever, a coach a genius, a general manager an idiot -- these are probably fanboles.

But one of the fun things about a fanbole is that sometimes, after uttering one (or tweeting one), you will find that after you think about it for a while -- hey, you know what? -- you ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT.

I recently tweeted this:

"Another one of those fan maybe-overstatement-maybe-not thoughts: Eric Mangini was the worst NFL head coach hire in 25 years."

Now, I'll admit -- that's pure fanbole. I cannot stand what Eric Mangini has done to the Browns, the team of my childhood. I cannot stand the lack of respect he has shown for the team's history, the Mickey Mouse game he plays with quarterbacks, the amazing knack he has for getting his players to not play hard for him or the stupid fines he hands out like he's Principal Vernon from "The Breakfast Club." Don't mess with the bull, young man, you'll get the horns.

But here's the thing: Based on the Twitter responses I've seen ... I'm actually starting to believe that I'm right. I'm actually starting to believe that Mangini really was the worst head coach hire in 25 years. The responses have mostly been to list other coaches who were worse hires than Mangini. But you know what? I don't think any of those hires WERE worse than Mangini. Remember:

1. Mangini had just been fired in New York, where he had done a terrible job. He had a losing record. His team had collapsed down the stretch, he had alienated his players, he was a pain in the neck to deal with. Point is: He'd already PROVEN how much damage he could do as a coach.

2. He came right out of the school of Bill Belichick ... and that didn't work THE FIRST TIME in Cleveland. It seems to me that Cleveland is a working-class town and Browns fans want a working-class coach -- not some pompous know-it-all who doesn't feel like he should have to explain to the commoners what he's doing.

3. What had he ever done to convince anyone he could be a head coach in the first place? Why, because he was a defensive coordinator for the Patriots under Belichick for one season? The Browns had JUST HIRED Romeo Crennel, who was ALSO defensive coordinator under Belichick. Attention Cleveland Browns owners, here's a good hint: BILL BELICHICK IS HIS OWN DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR.

4. Basically the first thing Mangini did -- first thing -- was have them tear down a mural of great Cleveland Browns players on the wall in the Browns offices. Now, there are differing opinions about what really happened, whose fault it really was, does it all matter, etc. You know what? The Cleveland Browns have never been to a Super Bowl. Never. Not one. But Browns fans still have a whole lot of pride. Browns fans grow up on a glorious history. If you allow something stupid like that to happen on your watch ... just a horrendous hire.

Now, here is a partial list of hires Twitter people think were worse than Mangini ... and why I disagree*:

*And remember: I'm talking about WORST HIRES, not necessarily WORST COACHES. Sometimes what seems like a good hire can turn disastrous. And sometimes what seems like a bad hire turns out well. We're talking specifically about the decision to hire Mangini here.

• Art Shell (Oakland): Admittedly this was a dreadful hire ... but there's no way it comes close to Mangini. Shell is a Raiders legend, a Hall of Famer player, who was also the first African American coach in the NFL (well, second, going back to Fritz Pollard in the 1920s). He actually coached the Raiders to three playoff appearances in five years in his first stint. True, when the Raiders hired him the second time he clearly had lost his coaching marbles ... but there's no way that's as bad a hire as Mangini.

• Jim Zorn (Washington): Well ... maybe. The whole process of hiring Zorn was nutty, and it's pretty clear he was overmatched. But Jim Zorn was a fine and fun quarterback, so at least he had that going for him. Plus he had not just been fired as a head coach.

• Bobby Petrino (Atlanta): This turned out to be a disastrous hire ... but I don't think it was considered bad at the time. Petrino was one of the hottest names in college football.

• Raheem Morris (Tampa Bay): Whew, yeah, that's a bad hire. But, again, at least he was hired from within and he had not just been canned.

• Steve Spurrier (Washington): No way. Not even close. Spurrier turned out to be a horrible NFL coach, but the hire itself was exciting and had every chance to work. NFL teams were falling over each other to hire Spurrier as a head coach. This isn't even in the same ballpark as the Mangini hire.

• Tom Cable (Oakland): The Raiders should have their own category when it comes to terrible NFL coach hires. But even this hire to me is not as insulting and infuriating as the Mangini hire. I mean, everyone in New York -- players, fans, media members, everyone -- DESPISED Mangini. I mean, I'm still wondering who in New York Mangini could have put down as a reference.

• Rich Kotite (New York Jets): Well, this hire has many of the same problems as the Mangini hire -- Kotite had just been canned, nobody liked him, and so on. But at least Kotite was a New Yorker who had played in the NFL and he had a winning record as a coach. This WAS bad ... I think Mangini was worse.

• Scott Linehan (St. Louis): Bad hire, of course, but he was a longtime assistant coach who had success in various other places. He'd coached in high school, in college, he was offensive coordinator for the Vikings and Dolphins. I don't think the hire itself compares to Mangini, though I certainly feel the Rams fans pain of having to endure two and a half seasons with him as coach.

• Marty Mornhinweg (Detroit): He was considered a bright young coordinator when the Lions hired him -- and he's offensive coordinator for the Eagles now. Plus, he lasted two years with the Lions (long enough to elect to kick off in overtime). I really don't think Mangini will last the season.


link

i saw that article and thought it wasn't even worth a post. the guy is a moron.

Why don't you post it and in the process why don't U elaborate why those same Pro Bowlers in that lineup didn't live up to their billing in 08?
Tell me what's still here...that are real playmakers..

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Last year, Browns owner Randy Lerner fired coach Romeo Crennel and G.M. Phil Savage, only a year after giving each of them contract extensions.

Now, with the Browns at 0-3 and coach Eric Mangini in the eye of a storm of criticism and grievances, some league insiders openly are expressing concern that Mangini won't make it through the end of the season.

If so, Mangini possibly would be the only head coach fired by two different NFL teams in less than a year.

Butch Davis resigned after 11 games in 2004. In all, the Browns have had five head coaches (permanent and interim) in the decade since they have returned to the league.

UPDATE: As a reader points out, Ray Rhodes was fired by the Eagles after the 1998 season, and then by the Packers after the 1999 season.

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Pro Football Talk

I think it's pretty telling that many of us are having the same thoughts.

Fire Mangini. Make Ryan the interim coach. Mangini gets replaced by both Ryan brothers.

I just hope that Mangini doesn't make it through the season. The players obviously don't like him.

The only thing I can remember is when Mangini got hired, my gut told me, "This is not good." But I talked myself into it.

We might have been better off keeping Romeo around another year, then cash in on the Head Coaching bonanza this off-season (Cowher, Shanahan, Gruden, Holmgren.)

Also, if the Carolina Panthers keep losing the way they are, John Fox will be fired and Cowher will go there.

I don't see Schottenheimer as a viable option.

I agree, Marty is too old, besides he has publicly stated he wants the "sit at a desk and smoke cigars" job of a GM/President. That, I believe he would do at bang up job at in Cleveland.

That the players don't like Mangini is not all bad--however, if they refuse to play for him, that's another story and is a fireable offense. I would like to see if, after two years, we look like the Jets do now,....he deserves a lot of their credit success.

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Now time for me to say something..
Take a bad team with bad units add four draft choices and some run of the mill free agents and you get the same result.
Bad team...

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Your whole post makes good sense. All of it. As awful as it sounds, we've been here before...



How much can we compare M/K's first off season to that of Savage/RAC?

The way I saw it as it played out is that they've done pretty much the same thing. Savage let go of high paid underachievers and brought in warm bodies to replace them. He didn't go for any high tier FA's with the exception of Baxter because Henry forced his hand by leaving via FA.

They used that first season as an evaluation period. Many of you will remember Savage saying he wishes he could fast forward to the end of the season so he could get started.

I see M/K as basically doing the same thing. The difference might be that the "warm bodies" are players that Mangini is familiar with. Other than that it's the same.

There's a lot of impatience on here because M/K didn't bring in better FA's or draft for positions we all knew to be below average. Again, evaluation season.

Kokinis should now our roster as that was his job in Baltimore. But Mangini did not know it so well and as all coaches do he likely wanted to see what he could do with some of that below average talent under his coaching. He may, as I believe a lot of coaches do, think that he could possiblity get more out of some of these guys than the previous regime. If he can great. If not, well, now he knows.

They knew they needed to strengthen the center of the OL so they drafted Mack. I doubt they expected him to make the probowl this year. But drafting and playing him now sets him up for next season when the real re-building begins.

They knew they had no receivers here so they drafted two in the second round. I doubt too that they expected early contributions from either. But again, next season they should be prepared to contribute.

I don't believe BE fits the offense they want to run. I think that's why the trade talks early on. I also think that's why we've read in recent articles about BE saying he's talked to Dabol about what he has to do in his role in this offense and he will try to do that. It's different than what Chud ran with DA.

BE is a deep threat play maker when he's really on but this offense, dubbed "methodical" by Quinn, is not the kind of offense BE would play well in. It would mean running great intermediate routes, going across the middle, taking big hits at times and waiting his turn for the ball. It would mean getting what he gets and having to settle for not being the focus all the time. None of that fits his "style". It's not, "BE ball", (to paraphrase Quincy Morgan.)

They knew too that LB is a big need. They could have paid big for a FA which would have helped right away. But this team was not going to be good right away. They drafted two LB's for the near future. I doubt they expected either of them to heavily contribute right away other than on special teams.

Right or wrong I believe that is basically their plan. Just like Savage/RAC. Get rid of some guys they really feel to be a detriment, replace them with other guys the coach is more familiar with, although not big upgrades if upgrades at all, and evaluate the season so they know what they have to do to prepare for 2010.

I look for M/K to do the same thing Savage/RAC did in their second season which is to BEGIN to re-build the roster. At that time they should feel more solid in their WR's and the center of the OL. The LB's should be able to contribute as I believe we'll see a lot of all the rooks as this losing season rolls along. They'll get experience and M/K will better know their roster and what they need to press forward.

It looks to me like a lot of fans expected us to be better or at the least, expected M/K to buy a couple of FA's that would make an immediate impact, to draft some other positions that we all knew lacked talent and make a push to become a competitive team right away. It didn't happen and it wasn't going to. I just wasn't the plan.

Again, if Mangini is able to coach-up some of our roster that would mean less needs in 2010. (Cribbs anyone?) We'll see how successful he is with that. I'll give him Wimbley because he's already a lot more noticeable this year than he has been. Up until now he's been the guy wrestling with the LT until the whistle blows. This year he's on the move and making some plays. There are others who might be on the cusp but who knows?

This team is getting rebuilt as Toad has said from the beginning. But just like the regime before them, M/K is not doing it the first season. They are evaluating. A "throw-away" season Toad called it in '05. I hated that then. I hate it now. But I don't see any other way to call it. It is what it is. Screw you Toad.

So anyone expecting something different is going to have to change their expectations or be doomed to be mad as hell all season. And if you're going to be mad the only thing you can be mad about is the plan. You can't be mad that they didn't make moves to be immediately competitive if their plan was to evaluate. That there there is two different animals. If you want to be mad that they planned an evaluation season you can be, but it's futile. It ain't gonna change now.

So are they doing a bad job? That depends. If any of us are expecting them to go by our goals and plans then they are probably not doing so well overall. But I believe, as I've said, their goals and plans are much different than our own. If this is indeed an evaluation season then I can tell you that their plan is way off mine. But it's their choice. And if an evaluation season is what they have planned then that is what we should be grading them on - not things based on a different plan.

Savage/RAC started out with a veteran QB in Dilfer. Not much on the surface but he did have game experince, the schedule was easy and we pulled off six wins in their first year.

M/K, although they do have DA, a veteran with some experience, they also have on the roster a first round pick who has all the tools and the smarts to be successful. They have a decision to make at QB whereas Savage/RAC didn't. That makes the QB position a mess at this point. Quinn looked fine last season starting his two complete games. There was NONE of the "deer in the headlights" we see from him now. The team scored 30 points his first start and 29 the next. Now however, they can't even get a TD other than one in garbage time vs. backups. I have no idea what happened with that. No idea at all. (Maybe Dabol knows something.)

So although I wanted Mangini and Kokinis to fix some holes and try to compete this season it appears they had no such plan. Their plan looks to be the same as the regime before them: Use the first season to evaluate the roster and re-build from there.

This is going to take time.

As for this season, well, if you'd rather not spend your Sunday afternoons puking in a bucket during the games you can record it in case something good happens and you'd like to watch it later. I'll watch it anyway. I'm a glutton for punishment I guess.

Darn you for giving me any kind of optimism.

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who were the playmakers then? and what has changed since then?

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Brayon Edwards, K2, J.J., the OL overachieving, Lewis running for 1300 yards, an offense taylored to the QB and a damn easy schedule. (had to add the schedule as a playmaker )

What has changed is Edwards is being asked to do different things than he's used to doing, K2 is gone, J.J. is gone, the right side of the OL is sucking bad, Lewis had been hurt since the first game, the offense is taylored to ??? and the schedule has not been and will not be quite as easy.

A lot has changed.

I felt initially that some slight upgrades and depth on the DL, an experienced, though older, ILB, heading into the season without the ridiculous wave of injuries we suffered early last season, a more demanding HC, the possibility of not playing third and fourth string QB's the last six games and a little easier schedule would translate to a more competitive team this year. So far, no such luck.

Now we have Quinn who did well enough in his two complete starts last season is looking like a deer in the headlights this year, DA comes of the bench and makes two games worth of mistakes in one half, our OL lacks depth and the right side lacks starters, without Lewis we can't run the ball at all and with him hardly at all, and still can't stop the run.

On paper this should be the same team with some upgrades. In reality it's a total mess and I don't think anyone has the answer for it. Perhaps 0+0 does indeed = 0.

What really gets me - and I see this as a microcosm of the team as a whole - is the Quinn issue. I prefer Quinn over DA but I don't care who the QB is just so we have one. But this kid played a couple of games last season and looked like a rookie who at least knew how to play the position. Now he seems to know nothing. How did that happen? And the reason I called his issue a microcosm of the team is because the whole team has seemed to suffer the same fate. No one looks like they know what the hell their doing. ?!?

Good post,...

"Looks like no one knows what they're doing,..."

Squarely on Mangini's shoulders, methinks,....

What the heck happened to Ryan being a defensive genius ?

Let's see if I got your reasoning correct.
They were quick to determine who was an overpaid underachiever,but it's going to take a year to determine who is an underpaid underachiever.
Sounds like hogwash to me.

Hate to say it...but your post is one big fat apology novel...90% except the homer knew it takes time....but there's no excuse for not showing up, playing lifeless and fundamentally horrible football or being worse than the Raiders or Rams which 6 months ago not even the most pessimistic bozos expected...

it's really basically like saying Quinn needs more time...for what? to upgrade from horrible to bad or best case below average? As obvious as Quinn hasn't "IT", Mangini doesn't have "IT"....and that's for gameday AND offseason

you guys forget that he never was "the king" in NY...he was the coach there, not the talent evaluator or draft room trigger man...and fact is, that the same Jets with a rookie QB look 10x better than "his" Jets ever did...

I mean, what more do you guys need? not a lot of change of talent here and in NY and we look A LOT WORSE and they look A LOT BETTER...gosh, I have nightmares of that NYJ player quote, I think it was Rhodes, saying they were "walking on eggshells" and you guys on here just completely forget it repeatedly....I wish I could too but it's there....why should he say that? just think for 1 moment guys

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4. Basically the first thing Mangini did -- first thing -- was have them tear down a mural of great Cleveland Browns players on the wall in the Browns offices. Now, there are differing opinions about what really happened, whose fault it really was, does it all matter, etc. You know what? The Cleveland Browns have never been to a Super Bowl. Never. Not one. But Browns fans still have a whole lot of pride. Browns fans grow up on a glorious history. If you allow something stupid like that to happen on your watch ... just a horrendous hire.

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I'm not going to spend much time here defending Mangini. But the quote above is typical of the national media witch hunt beating down his door. Their wrath doesn't even have to contain the truth. A nugget of half-truth is enough to use against him since NFL fans outside of Cleveland do not know...



Mangini pleased with first month's work, defends changes to Berea headquarters
by Mary Kay Cabot/Plain Dealer Reporter
Wednesday February 04, 2009, 8:14 PM

Hammered by some news outlets for allegedly painting over a mural of the Browns' 16 Hall of Famers, Mangini said, "I'd love to tell you about that."

He explained that the mural was on an obscure wall near the players' entrance and that he felt it should be moved to the front foyer where it could be appreciated by visitors. The mural, a removable decal, was peeled off and the wall will be painted. A new version will most likely be hung near Jim Brown's shoes in the foyer.

"What I said in my opening press conference is true," said Mangini. "I believe in the importance of the history of this organization and the men that have made this team great."

He did not, however, apologize for putting his own stamp on the facility.

"It's important to have it reflect your beliefs and that's never an indictment of the people that were here before," he said. "Everyone has a different approach to the flow of the building. The important thing is to do it the way I believe is best."

cleveland.com


It's crap like that which is being spewed all over the national media. The guy can't fart crossways without someone who knows nothing crying foul.

Then there's the list of coaches who were not as bad a hire as Mangini. About the only thing he could say good about most of them was that even though they failed miserably they were an exciting hire at the time.

This poor guy is taking it up the ying-yang from more directions than is feasibly possible. I'd hate to be in his shoes right now. I just hope to hell for his sake, (and all of ours), that he is successful here and makes them all eat crow.

I just hope to hell for his sake, (and all of ours), that he is successful here and makes them all eat crow.

I don't think there is anybody on The Board that feels differently. Just beating Cincy this week would quell a lot of the crap,....and if they don't win, I'm not throwing away my football cards or burning my Turner jersey.

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Hate to say it...but your post is one big fat apology novel...90% except the homer knew it takes time....

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Oh, you don't hate to say it at all.

I'm apologizing for nothing. I'm trying to give my take on what I think their plan is. I hear so many on here, you included, who feel M/K have not done what needed to be done to be a competitive team. All I'm saying is that an all out blitz to be a competitive team in '09 was obviously not their goal. It's looking to me like their goal is the same as Savage/RAC, to simply evaluate the roster this year. That explains a lot when people cannot understand why we didn't bring in some impact free agents and make a run for the gold.

I'm surprised you didn't get that out of it but instead called me an apologist for M/K.

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...but there's no excuse for not showing up, playing lifeless and fundamentally horrible football or being worse than the Raiders or Rams which 6 months ago not even the most pessimistic bozos expected...

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Well, I thought I expressed the same thing at the end of my post and stated that I'm at a loss for the answer. But this is what happens when one reads to quickly or not completely enough to take it in.

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it's really basically like saying Quinn needs more time...for what?

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No it's not. Not at all. My question, that you cannot answer either, is how a kid who played pretty well his first two starts last season now looks like he's never stepped on an NFL field before this season. The young man is a deer in the headlights while he gave absolutely no indication of that when he played last season. I'm asking what happened? How does someone regress that far after going through another off season and training camp. If all he did was play as well, throw as accurately and make the decisions he did last season in his two games I'd be fine with him. But now, somehow, he plays like he hasn't a clue. He sure looked like he had a clue last year. Again, what happened?

Does he need more time? Obviously if he's going to regain what he had last year. But I'm not petitioning for more time, I'm wanting to know what the hell happened and it seems to have happened to the whole team.



And I'm not concerned that Mangini was not the "King" in New York. I never assumed he was, am not defending him from that viewpoint and could care less what went on there. His team did go 8-3 last season before Favre crapped out and there's a lot more to that team, (which Rex Ryan inherited), that Favre had nothing to do with.

I don't know who picked his players or how much say he had in them. But he left them with a good OL and a substantial defense. He is getting some of the same treatment Savage got here regarding Baltimore's roster as in Mangini gets no credit for the good draft picks, for building the OL there, (funny that's the first thing he and Kokinis addressed here and at the same position btw), but he gets the credit for Gohlston (sp?) as being a bad pick.

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.gosh, I have nightmares of that NYJ player quote, I think it was Rhodes, saying they were "walking on eggshells" and you guys on here just completely forget it repeatedly....I wish I could too but it's there....why should he say that? just think for 1 moment guys

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I'll not post it here because I've already posted it twice; once in the Mangini thread (I think) and again in the Tailgate thread regarding the greivences. But if you have the time go look in there and see what the players and media were saying about Tom Coughlin early on. It was the exact same thing. The end result? A team that gained the discipline they so sorely lacked and they are all wearing Superbowl rings now.

I'm not saying that just because Coughlin was the same kind of dictator coach with what many considered unfair rules and had players filing greivences against him too that Mangini is destined to take this team to the Superbowl. That would be as bad as using stats in the wrong manner. What I am saying is, or asking rather, is how can you be so damn sure you're right about what a bad coach he is when he really hasn't done badly in his career and is only three games into his tenure here?

Sure he has a losing record and missed the playoffs after being 8-3. Are you willing to give any of that to Brett, "I've-never-missed-a-game-in-my-life-and-am-not-about-to-miss-one-now-even-though-I'm-killing-my-team", Favre?

There is a big picture. I don't pretend to know it. But it's much bigger than focusing on mountains being built out of molehills because individuals don't like some of the decisions and translating that into there is nothing good under the sun.

There has been a lot that I haven't agreed with that has been done here as well. Life is like that. Football even more so. Triple that for the Cleveland Browns. But this has to be the earliest time in the tenure of a HC anywhere that fans are calling for his head and the national media makes up false truths just to vilify the guy.

I will throw out a what if, What if the Browns went 13-3 this season? Would Mangini get a pass on the first 3 games? Would Mangini be a genius? Would all of the Mangini haters disappear? Would Mangini be called a GOD for turning the Browns around?