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Yes, I know all of that. Please show me where I said that there weren't reasons for his choice.... what I am saying is that he indeed had a choice and he could have just as plausibly walked Quinn out there as DA.
If you're too blind to see that, or perhaps feeling too entrenched in your position to admit it, so be it, but it's pretty damned obvious to me.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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1st String
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Here's the problem. The Browns will not get to the playoffs with Anderson as the QB. He proved that in the Cincinnati game in 2007 (4 int's against a horrible Bengals team. Is he better right now than Quinn, probably, but that does not mean he should be the guy. We are going to be bad with or without DA at qb, so why not give Quinn a shot to see if he can improve. If he doesn't over the course of the year (and I am not confident he will) then move on, but to put DA back in when you know he's not the answer is simply a desperation move that is going to cost the organization in the long run.
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Ahhhh..nice post..That should go over well with about 5 posters right now 
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I don't think you can use one game with 4 INTS to prove he's not the guy any more than I would buy a DA supporter using his 51 against the Bengals or his great game against the Giants to prove that he's great.. The dude has 27 starts, look at them all, consider the body of work, make a decision. My conclusion is that he's inconsistent. My conclusion is that his ceiling is somewhere in the Jake Plummer or Jake Delhomme area... He's going to light it up from time to time, he's going to break your heart a lot. I think on a decent team he could get to the playoffs, I'm not convinced he could put together 3 or 4 consecutive quality games against good teams to get you to the promised land.
None of that has anything to do with whether I think that makes him better or worse than Brady Quinn... if the kind of QB I described above is what you want, then DA is your guy.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
what I am saying is that he indeed had a choice and he could have just as plausibly walked Quinn out there as DA.
If you're in fact saying that he could have even signed Garcia off the street and "plausibly" walked him out there instead of Quinn or Anderson, that begs the question:
What's the point of making that statement in the first place?
From a logical standpoint, he had to start Anderson this week. Will it work? We'll know by 3:30pm Sunday, but that will neither vilify or validate the decision. At this point in the game, Anderson had to be inserted as the starter because he had to make sure the team got their hopes up. That wouldn't happen with marching Quinn back out there.
I wonder if those that believe Quinn should still be out there fully appreciate all the factors that are going into benching him right now, and realize it's not the end for Quinn............
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I agree Toad
its not the end for Quinn....as of right now DA has the job, and its his to lose.
Even though I prefer DA, he could play himself out of the job and Quinn be right back out there...it is what it is
just have to see how Da and the team responds Sunday..
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Yeah, we prefer writers that use knock-knock jokes here in Hicksville;
So you think "blue collar town" is a synonym for a "hicksville."
Sad.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Here's the problem. The Browns will not get to the playoffs with Anderson as the QB. He proved that in the Cincinnati game in 2007 (4 int's against a horrible Bengals team. Is he better right now than Quinn, probably, but that does not mean he should be the guy. We are going to be bad with or without DA at qb, so why not give Quinn a shot to see if he can improve. If he doesn't over the course of the year (and I am not confident he will) then move on, but to put DA back in when you know he's not the answer is simply a desperation move that is going to cost the organization in the long run.
Yup!
This team is going 2-14 or 1-15 with DA, or without DA. The facts is he isnt half as good as his little cult thinks he is. The right football move is to see what Quinn has, so you have a real evaluation going into the offseason. 3 games dont cut it.
This move however, should surprise nobody.
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Quote:
I agree Toad
its not the end for Quinn....as of right now DA has the job, and its his to lose.
Even though I prefer DA, he could play himself out of the job and Quinn be right back out there...it is what it is
just have to see how DA and the team responds Sunday..
Bottom line right there, be I a Quinn-backer or not, this is what will count.
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What's the point of making that statement in the first place?
What's the point of you saying that he HAD to do something in particular when he did NOT have to do it?
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From a logical standpoint, he had to start Anderson this week.
There you go using that "had" word again, as if it is an absolute.
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I wonder if those that believe Quinn should still be out there fully appreciate all the factors that are going into benching him right now, and realize it's not the end for Quinn............
I wonder if you realize that I'm not arguing that he should have put Quinn out there, or that I don't give a damn at all who is starting?
I'll be at the game this week (my brother already wasted his money) - and I quite likely STILL won't watch this mess.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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What I'm thinking will be interesting is the likely record number of "I told you so's" that will be on this board probably by halftime of the Browns game on Sunday. Not matter how it turns out, the playground bullies will be at each other once again.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Quote:
What I'm thinking will be interesting is the likely record number of "I told you so's" that will be on this board probably by halftime of the Browns game on Sunday. Not matter how it turns out, the playground bullies will be at each other once again.
To be fair, if DA plays well the "It's just the Bengals" will probably far outweigh the "told you so"s.
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You mean the fact that they are by far the weakest defense we have played this season? Do I think it will matter? No, because our receivers and tight ends are that bad. Plus our OL is still our OL, 2 good players, 3 bad ones.
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Three weeks ago NOBODY could see Mangini starting DA over Quinn. 10 quarters later and DA is in... AND very few seem to have an issue with this. I feel for Quinn and DA. This QB circle jerk has damaged both of their careers. If I was a top QB in the draft NO WAY would I sign with Cleveland. This organization kills QB careers. Quinn should have played by the second game his rookie year. After going to the Pro Bowl DA should have remained starter or have been traded for VALUE if RAC and Phil thought Quinn was the future. When they signed DA they should have traded Quinn. I blame these two years for Quinn and three years for DA of BS QB competitions being the reason niether is a confident, starting QB. Quinn had much more poise and field generalship last year... WHAT HAPPENED? DA struggled late in 07 and was horrible in 08... WHY? Between the poor coaching, the FO and this fan base (Yep the fans need to accept some responsibility here too) we kill QBs. Start DA, trade Quinn and start over next year... same old story.  If Mangini fails to impress, he needs to go. We need a REAL Coach and FO. This guy is just short of ridiculous. I'm not sure he's an upgrade over RAC and that's about as bad as it gets. This OC is a meathead. I could call better plays drawing them out of a hat with a blindfold on! No adjustments. Does not play to the strengths of his players. SQUARE PEG ROUND HOLE, MO Ver 2.0! Ryan seems to be the only one that gets it. He fell on his sword, when the fault clearly layed elsewhere. He's a rough around the edges PURE football guy... Was he EVER a ballboy? I will never not be a browns fan because I have been my whole life... BUT times like this sure tempt me. 
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You mean the fact that they are by far the weakest defense we have played this season? Do I think it will matter? No, because our receivers and tight ends are that bad.
No, what I mean is that while the Bengals are pretty middle-of-the-road, statistically, in both offensive and defensive rankings, they are still sitting one miracle catch away from being 3-0 (the teams they have beaten aren't exactly slouches, either), and regardless of how DA plays this Sunday, Cincy's accomplishments thus far in 2009 will be skewed either way to support a point of view. DA plays great and torches their D and you'll hear "But its just the Bengals". He plays lousy and you'll hear about how vastly improved their defense is. And somewhere in between will be where the truth lies.
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Plus our OL is still our OL, 2 good players, 3 bad ones.
I happen to think that JT, Steiny and Hank are all pretty dang good lineman, personally.
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Three weeks ago NOBODY could see Mangini starting DA over Quinn.
that's not true. people wanted to show support but that doesn't mean people didn't think DA should've been starting all along.
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Sorry, I should have made the exception of You, Loyal and Derden... 
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there are others, and our reasons vary.
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Yup!
This team is going 2-14 or 1-15 with DA, or without DA. The facts is he isnt half as good as his little cult thinks he is. The right football move is to see what Quinn has, so you have a real evaluation going into the offseason. 3 games dont cut it.
This move however, should surprise nobody.
You know I agree with a lot of what you write and we're beating the same drum for the most part...but I disagree here....
letting Quinn in is worthless...I actually believe DA has more upside than Quinn AT THIS POINT....why? and why so early? well, Quinn just doesn't have the most fundamental qualification to be a NFL QB: he lacks a set of onions...guy's a puss and it destroy the little he can do....he really is DONE in my book...3rd year and then showing off like this? sorry guys, sorry Diam...guy's not worth giving anothe snap
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Just a general reply ........
I am curious as to what people see as Quinn's strengths at this poiint? What does he do well? It usually becomes apparent pretty early on what kind of QB a guy is .... so what is Quinn? What is seen as his upside?
My concern with Quinn is that QBs usually become more conservative with age .... as they have to rein in their desire to try and do too much. They usually have to learn that it's OK to throw one away if there is nothing there .... that it's OK to get something instead of forcing a bad throw ......
To me this seems to be the normal learning curve.
Quinn seems to be the exact opposite. To me he looks like a guy who only wants to play it safe ... whether that "safe play" will succeed or not. He seems unwilling to try and create a big play when one might be available to him. It looks to me like he either does not trust his arm .... what he sees ....... or his teammates.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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"Mangini just continues to make incredible dumb decisions"
Nah I just don't like the way he handled the QB situation.
But then handling QBs hasn't exactly been the fortay of that entire TREE.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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But then handling QBs hasn't exactly been the fortay of that entire TREE.
Good point. If Bill Belichick doesn't stumble and fall backwards into Tom Brady, are we still calling him one of the greatest coaches of all time? 
yebat' Putin
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So you think "blue collar town" is a synonym for a "hicksville." Sad.
Nice try, but you are the one who said Bud Shaw's humor was too highbrow for Cleveland.
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree Toad
its not the end for Quinn....as of right now DA has the job, and its his to lose.
Even though I prefer DA, he could play himself out of the job and Quinn be right back out there...it is what it is
just have to see how DA and the team responds Sunday..
Bottom line right there, be I a Quinn-backer or not, this is what will count.
indeed rah indeed
i just want to win. hopefully we are all elebrating a big win and drinking beer into the merry hours of the morning come sunday
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And you were the one that brought out hicksville 
Until you decided to try and say............whatever it was you were trying to say, I didn't consider "blue-collar" to be anything but just that.
YOU equated blue-collar to bumblescum, not me.
I'm sure all the hard-working, 9-to-5 factory-types appreciated your failed attempt at sarcasm..........
Moving on...........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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What's the point of you saying that he HAD to do something in particular when he did NOT have to do it?
Because such a move was the only logical choice, ergo, he had no choice.
Sure, he could choose to march a cow out there under center, thus representing a decision leading to a choice, but that isn't a viable option, resulting in a situation where there really isn't a choice to make.
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From a logical standpoint, he had to start Anderson this week.
There you go using that "had" word again, as if it is an absolute.
*shrug* He could have marched that cow out there, but that wouldn't have made any sense.
Arguing over these kinds of semantics is really odd for you, Prp. Hell, you could nitpick any statement any individual person makes on this board to show a gray area.
If you agree or disagree with the logic, say it, but arguing about this...........
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I wonder if those that believe Quinn should still be out there fully appreciate all the factors that are going into benching him right now, and realize it's not the end for Quinn............
I wonder if you realize that I'm not arguing that he should have put Quinn out there, or that I don't give a damn at all who is starting?
I wonder if you realize I wasn't even addressing you or your belief regarding Quinn, because you sure are defensive about it
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I'm arguing the semantics because you stated it as an absolute fact, when it is not... the merits (or lack of) of the logic is irrelevant. The fact remains that he had a choice, and for reasons that you do not know, he made a decision going one way and not the other. Now, if you'd like to actually take ownership of the statement and phrase it as "I think he had no choice" or "I feel he had no choice", then your statement is valid, but to state your opinion as fact is just B.S. Quote:
I wonder if you realize I wasn't even addressing you or your belief regarding Quinn,
Uh, huh... and you didn't backhandedly call Cleveland Hicksville, either 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Doggone it - I only live about 30 miles - 35 miles from Hicksville. They even have toilets that flush, and phones, and power. They aren't that bad. Plus, as a sophomore qb, in a football scrimmage against them, some 5' 7" 250 pounder caught me by the collar of my jersey - the back collar - and as my tall, lean, lithe and quick legs were running, my freaking head got tossed into the ground so damn hard when I woke up, with the trainer over me, I said "why is the sky green? Look at the geese". (I was done for the day, by the way) So Hicksville ain't all it's cracked up to be. 
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Clearly I took a backhanded slap at Cleveland, considering I'm so conservative with my statements and beliefs  Quote:
The fact remains that he had a choice, and for reasons that you do not know, he made a decision going one way and not the other.
Actually, I do know the reasons. I laid them out quite clearly. That logic was backed up by Pluto.
Oh............wait.............there I go speaking in absolute terms again..................Of course it COULD be that Mangini likes the color of Anderson's eyes better, thus leading to a choice.
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Uh, huh... and you didn't backhandedly call Cleveland Hicksville, either
Yeah, I see what this is about now.
Petty dude, petty.
I've expected better out of you in the past.........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Yeah, I see what this is about now.
No, you don't see anything (boy, is that becoming more obvious). For one, check your time line... that item occurred long after I had begun with you in this thread.
I was simply using that as an example of how you make blanket statements about things, and if you get called out on them, you find a way to wriggle out of things using sideways logic.
You DID make a backhanded comment about Cleveland and the response presented was actually quite dead on. I don't care one bit about the comment or any of it.. but your habit of making a comment and then when called on it side-stepping with a "Uhh... that isn't what I said at all" move is precisely what I was referencing.
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Actually, I do know the reasons.
Really? You've spoken directly with Mangini and queried him on his decision? And he answered, citing precisely his reasoning for his decision?
Wow, you rock!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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For one, check your time line... that item occurred long after I had begun with you in this thread.
I'm sure if I went back and read some things, "that item" which you are referencing would mean something, but it doesn't ring a bell.
Bluntly put, you didn't used to be a juvenile sniper, but have been recently.
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No, you don't see anything (boy, is that becoming more obvious).
Case in point.
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I was simply using that as an example of how you make blanket statements about things, and if you get called out on them, you find a way to wriggle out of things using sideways logic.
Which is now getting closer to what I mean by saying "Now I see what this is about."
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You DID make a backhanded comment about Cleveland and the response presented was actually quite dead on.
Your flawed reading comprehension is not my problem.
If I wanted to take a swing at the city of Cleveland, I'd do it.
The only thing I took a backhanded swing at was Bud Shaw, but since you didn't get that, I don't expect you to get the explanation either.
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Really? You've spoken directly with Mangini and queried him on his decision? And he answered, citing precisely his reasoning for his decision?
Wow, you rock!
More of what I didn't used to expect from you.............
I've exhausted this conversation. Get in a last word so we can close this sad chapter...........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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To BOTH of you, and lots of others -
More and more as I read this board I remember back to when my brother and I were 6 and 8 years old staying with my elderly grandmother and we would get into fights and she would yell " Kiddies, PLEASE!"
You said THIS and so you meant THAT --- Kiddies, PLEASE!
No I didn't cause of THAT so it's DIFFERENT -- Kiddies, PLEASE!
Most of you aren't even drunk so you got no excuse.
DA is starting cause BQ sucked so bad even his personal fan club will mostly keep quiet about the benching. Note this personal fan club is seperate from, and not necessarily included in, the larger set of Browns fans.
Anybody wanna bet that over the next two games, we get a Bunch more than one offensive TD?
BQ is to Professional football what SanJaya was to Professional singing. He just doesn't belong, and a bunch of clueless dreamers kept him there far longer than he should have been, and discarded better talent to do so.
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lol, i think your efforts to dowse the flames could end up fanning the fire.
that said, i do recognize a lot more hostility on these boards recently. no doubt, it's a result of not just losing but losing in a terrible way. hopefully a win comes soon so everyone can start singing kumbaya again but at least, maybe posters here will take a deep breath and try to be kinder to each other as we are a dawgtalker family.
it's ironic that people get so frustrated with each other here when the only thing that brought them together is a team they love so much.
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Most of you aren't even drunk so you got no excuse.
and exactly how do you know that 
#gmstrong
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j/c Quote:
BEREA: Former Browns quarterback Tim Couch believes that Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson can succeed in the NFL.
But perhaps not with the Browns, especially if the two are subjected to the same mishandling that he and Kelly Holcomb experienced six years ago.
Couch joined the ranks of former NFL players decrying the lack of talent on the 2009 Browns, winless going into the home game Sunday against the Cincinnati Bengals. And Couch thinks that way even while sticking up for coach Eric Mangini.
''You could put any quarterback on that team and he wouldn't be successful,'' Couch said in a telephone interview Wednesday night. ''It's tough to coach a quarterback in that type environment.
''They've got a good coaching staff; they're going in the right direction. Coach Mangini was pretty successful with the Jets. But he's in a tough situation, too. It's like Butch Davis and Chris Palmer when they took over, the talent level as a team wasn't there.''
The first overall pick in 1999, Couch splits time between homes in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., and Lexington, Ky., with his wife, Heather, and their two sons, Chase, 4, and Brady, 6 months. When it was suggested that his sons' names sound like quarterbacks, Couch said, ''That's what we were going for.''
While occasionally serving as an analyst for University of Kentucky football, Couch keeps up with the Browns through former tight end Aaron Shea. Couch is godfather to Shea's oldest daughter and visited the family in Westlake in August, attending a preseason game.
The 2007 season, when the Browns went 10-6 and fell a game shy of the playoffs, convinced Couch that his old team was finally breaking out of the doldrums.
''Derek Anderson went to the Pro Bowl, they had a good offensive line, Jamal Lewis was on a roll, they had good receivers, Braylon [Edwards] had a good year,'' Couch said. ''All of a sudden last year, they went backwards.''
Quarterback switch
While the team struggles to rebuild, Couch cautioned Mangini about going down the same road as Davis, who played musical quarterbacks with Couch and Holcomb in 2003.
Mangini started Quinn, the 22nd pick in the 2007 draft, for the first three games, but lifted him at halftime Sunday at Baltimore when the Browns trailed 20-0. On Wednesday, Mangini announced that he was installing Anderson as the starter this weekend, but he gave no indication how long Anderson's stint would last.
To Couch, that sounded reminiscent of what he and Holcomb went through in 2003. Holcomb started the first three games, then suffered what Davis deemed ''a teeny, tiny'' fracture of his right fibula at San Francisco. Couch took over for five games, but was replaced late in the third quarter against San Diego, then sprained his right thumb the following week in a start at New England. Holcomb was in command until Game 13 against St. Louis, when he was yanked after two second-quarter interceptions. He sat on the bench behind Couch the rest of the season.
The next year, Jeff Garcia took over at quarterback and Couch was out of football, suffering from a torn rotator cuff, bicep and labrum in his right shoulder. He said he tore his rotator cuff again when he was about to sign with Indianapolis in 2005.
Couch said Holcomb has visited him at his home in Kentucky and he plays in Holcomb's annual golf tournament in Murfreesboro, Tenn. They still discuss 2003.
''We talk all the time what a miserable situation it was and we only had to deal with it one season,'' Couch said. ''You almost had to play a perfect game to keep your job. As a quarterback, you can't say, 'If I have a bad game, I'm not going to be playing.' You've got to play loose. You can't do it with that on your mind, knowing you're going to be benched.
''It's a different position than any other position on the field. Once a coach starts going back and forth and the team is unsure, that's a bad situation. In my opinion, nothing ruins a locker room like a quarterback controversy. The team needs a guy they can count on. Once a quarterback loses his luster, being the guy, being the leader, gets pulled out of a game, it's a pretty tough situation in the locker room.''
Advice from Couch
Quinn is 1-5 as a starter over two seasons, Anderson 13-14. Couch worries that Quinn's benching could damage his confidence.
''It definitely does,'' Couch said. ''A couple bad games and all of a sudden the job is taken away ... you have to have good people around you to keep your confidence up. I've been there, I know what he's going through.''
Couch also feared the ramifications of the constant pounding that Browns quarterbacks take. Quinn was sacked nine times in the first two games and 10 times in three. But that's nothing compared to Couch, who absorbed 56 sacks as a rookie, 51 when he was healthy again in his third season and 166 for his career.
''David Carr had the same situation with an expansion team [Houston], he was beat to death,'' Couch said. ''You think you're going to be a great player, but once you start getting hit like that, you get a little gun-shy. It happens to everyone.''
Ironically, the Browns have the same quarterbacks coach, Carl Smith, that Couch did for the final three years of his five years in the NFL.
''He's a great football coach who has been in the NFL a long time,'' Couch said of Smith, starting his 20th season. ''He teaches the game really well, makes you understand it. He had an unfortunate situation, dealing with a team that's never been good enough to make a quarterback be successful.''
Couch said Anderson ''is certainly capable of getting the job done.'' And speaking from his painful experience, he had some advice for Quinn.
''Always believe in yourself and your ability,'' Couch said. ''Know you're good, you're put in a bad situation.''
http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/63168877.html
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Couch seemed like he was all over the place in that interview. If yanking QB's is a bad thing, like he and Holcomb went through, how can you say Mangini is a good coach? He's a good coach making poor choices? Sounds like he's calling him a bad coach to me with a tad bit of sour grapes tossed in for flavor.
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177 |
Quote:
Former Browns quarterback Tim Couch believes that Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson can succeed in the NFL.
That pretty much cements DA's and Quinn's fate....we don't have an NFL QB.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
BQ is to Professional football what SanJaya was to Professional singing.
I've no clue what that means, suffice it to say it's not a compliment.
Quote:
He just doesn't belong, and a bunch of clueless dreamers kept him there far longer than he should have been, and discarded better talent to do so.
While I doubted his abilities coming out, and doubt them even more now, even I'm not willing to close the book on him after less than half-a-dozen games in the NFL.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
BEREA: Former Browns quarterback Tim Couch believes that Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson can succeed in the NFL.
Let me paint this in an equally ironic picture:
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BERIEA: Former Cowboys Quarterback Ryan Leaf believes that Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson can succeed in the NFL.
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But perhaps not with the Browns, especially if the two are subjected to the same mishandling that he and Kelly Holcomb experienced six years ago.
Yeah..............THAT'S what derailed the obvious HOF careers of Holcomb and Couch Quote:
Advice from Couch
Not interested.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
BQ is to Professional football what SanJaya was to Professional singing.
I've taken to calling him Cousin Oliver.
I can't think of a more prominent Brady to bust.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mangini: QB decision on Wednesday
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