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That's useful information showing that just because our receivers aren't doing anything, WR is probably the second toughest position to acclimate to in the NFL. That's been an historical fact for years, but that doesn't stop the human condition from panicking early.
When you factor in Quinn's inability to throw the ball downfield this season, it's not difficult to see why Mass hasn't been on the stat lines.
As noted when we drafted them, I'd stated our 2nd round receivers were for the future, not the present. To expect them to do much was unrealistic.
Now I did feel that Robo could help this team as a slot/possession guy, but not much beyond that this year. Of course he can't do that if he isn't even active......Mangini 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Good Job No_logo
It seems some people expect the draft picks to be starters the minute their drafted.
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No doubt, I'm not going to be terribly worried about BR 3 games into the season. Not only does WR tend to take longer but when your QB is utterly incompetent to this point, whether BR dresses or not is moot 
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It seems to me that a high 2nd round pick should be able to get a little playing time on a team as crappy as the Browns. Either Robo sucks unbelievable or Mangini is a idiot. I think its both. We should have drafted Maualuga. When I watch these old slow Jet robots it makes me sick.
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could it be because he is not fast enough?...just asking.
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As noted when we drafted them, I'd stated our 2nd round receivers were for the future, not the present. To expect them to do much was unrealistic.
Now I did feel that Robo could help this team as a slot/possession guy, but not much beyond that this year. Of course he can't do that if he isn't even active......Mangini
Mangini has to be heavily factored in this equation..and I doubt if this is debated much..these aren't normal situations..because you have a kick returner being given time over 2 players who should be given this time to get experience that chart also showed that some 2nd picks do acclimate every well , if given time..
Mangini isn't giving his picks time to do much.
Anytime a player is drafted it's for the future but depending on the circumstances of the team and skill level of the player, he can get his feet wet..
In the Browns case I think it's a decisional error..and I'm not just referring to Robo..but more in particular to Mass...U can't just waste both guys when you don't have one recieveing threat outside of Edwards..Cribbs is no threat..he's just a raw as any of them ..there's my rub..if K2 were and JJ healthy and here...I wouldn't be saying anything..but neither is and teams are suffocating Edwards..
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Quote:
And with Cribbs emerging...
....Sorry Tab, But I find this funny  Cribbs will never be a good WR...jmo.
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no_logo...
I like the research on that list but I think the key difference here is that at least those guys played!
Having BR sit out is like wasting a year. So...next year will be his rookie year of actually playing and he'll struggle.
Why not let him take his lumps now? Let him get used to the speed of the game? Let him study films and learn from his mistakes? It's not like we're going to the playoffs. Let the young guys play!
If the coaching staff thinks lessons learned this year aren't valuable for next year, then they have completely lost it.
And if they think he's so far behind it isn't worth inserting him, then it REALLY goes to show what a TERRIBLE draft pick it was.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Well, it's not as if Mangini has ever hid injuries before.
that had something to do with me thinking he might be hiding an injury, but then, it wouldn't make any sense at all.. not value in it. not that I can see anyway.
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Quote:
no_logo...
I like the research on that list but I think the key difference here is that at least those guys played!
Having BR sit out is like wasting a year. So...next year will be his rookie year of actually playing and he'll struggle.
Why not let him take his lumps now? Let him get used to the speed of the game? Let him study films and learn from his mistakes? It's not like we're going to the playoffs. Let the young guys play!
If the coaching staff thinks lessons learned this year aren't valuable for next year, then they have completely lost it.
And if they think he's so far behind it isn't worth inserting him, then it REALLY goes to show what a TERRIBLE draft pick it was.
I did that research in a meeting (thankfully the seat in the back was open)....but didn't have time to give the info on which guys played and which didn't.
there are a lot of guys on that list iwth under 10 receptions on the entire season. how many games do you think they really played. even if they were active? and how many games were they inactive? i don't have that info....but it is useful if someone wants to go into the gamelogs of each individual game (which I don't have time to do).
also, even the best WRs on that list....it's amazing how few did much early in the year.....you have Eddie Royal and DeSean Jackson and Reggie Brown.
that's the entire list....guys like Jennings and Avery who broke out did play early on, but it took until much later in the year to have the #'s.
basically, don't fret so much after game3 that we haven't seen much from them. if Robo works his way onto the roster and MoMass starts contributing (even a small amount) by the end of the year....then, no worries and they are on the normal growth process for a 2nd round WR.
now, on the flip side, i do understand the point that if Robo spends the entire year on the inactive list, that it really hurts his development. at some point, if the season is lost, then you need to just deactivate Furrey and let Robo play. Otherwise, as you mentioned, he's a full year behind in development.
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Thanks for the breakdown. It's rare that I'm reading posts that have some time and research behind them. I appreciate it.
One thing I will say is the Vincent Jackson comparison is off. He was a pretty big guy at Colorado State and he's only gotten bigger over the past few years(in a good way). He's fast, tall, and really physical. He's of the Anquan Boldin mold now.
Robiskie is never going to be in that category.
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If you're going to name players who aren't even on the team, then it negates your entire post, and makes you look exceptionally foolish.
It dont make you look foolish. It just shows that you have more important things to do then to study the Browns roster. It also dont meant that you are any less of a fan or have any less desire to see them win. Good question for someone who dont spend 10 hours a day reading about the team like some on here to try to prove to people that they are the most knowlegable Browns fan of all time and should be running the team.
The fact that you thought Patten was on the team shows me that you do follow the team in the offseason and that you are watching win or lose.
Dont let the fans that think they know it all discourage you from posting.
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Either to dumb to learn the playbook, or coaches actually say his talent level. Dude was average at best at OSU, never will be a #2 in this league.
He isnt dressing because he stinks, to sum it up.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to echo your thoughts here.
If he was a good receiver, he'd be playing.
If he could do what is needed on st's, he'd be playing.
Im going off memory here and not going to research the all the facts but does anybody remember the beginning of Keenan McKardells career? He wasnt a high draft pick, if drafted at all. We didnt have the net to know as much as we do know. But McKardell was a PS player for a while before he came into the league, I think under Belicheck, but when he got his oppurtunity, he did pretty good and didnt look back. I think he got 2 TDs in his first game and nobody even heard of him.
Robo is coming from OSU and is a 2nd rounder so people had high hopes. Especially considering the players that alot of fans wanted drafted. WR is said to be the hardest position to learn so Im thinking once everything clicks for him, he will be a consistant WR. Everyone remembers trying to learn math or riding a bike. Remember when it just clicked and your like "Oh I get it". Im hoping thats the case with Robo. IMO, I think its pointless to compare players who were drafted at the same time or have the same size or attributes. Its not fare to the player. Hes not a bust because someone drafted after him has a better career. To me it just means that the personnel drafted the wrong player, drafted him at the wrong time or the other player was put in better circumstances. Like Culpepper. People say he was better than Couch and the Browns messed that pick up. But Culpepper had a better 3rd WR in Reed than Couchs #1 WR in Kevin Johnson. He also had a good line (Stringer, Birk, Steussie), good running game (Robert Smith), one of the best WR combos (Carter, Moss) and a decent TE (McMichael).
To me, Robo not playing is as much on the coaching as it is on him being a bust or not. I think this current regime picked players they thought were already ready and didnt need to be taught techniques. They wanted to be able to just put players into the system rather than teach them. Even at this level, I believe you still have to go over techiniques and not just throw in players and play the ones who 'get it' now. Even playing baseball in highschool. The first day the coache admitted that he didnt have time to go over the basics and that hes going to take players that can step right in and play. I knew I was going to make it but I saw a couple players that would have been better then some of my teammates if the coach was willing to correct there swinging motion. I loved trying to help someone and watch an improvement from my suggestion.
Based on my past experiances and I could be wrong, I see Mangini as a coach bring in players that he thinks can step right in without having to coach them up. A coach that thinks if he can provide the right structure and coaches that can call the right plays, that will provide a winning solution. But coaches like that wont find the diamonds like Josh Cribbs or Harrison in Pittsburgh. Players that need coached up. Yeah, Troy Brown played WR in NE and moved to DB, but he wasnt the coach that made the decision. He was an assistant there when it happened. I also think that he is a hard headed coach that thinks its his was or the highway. I feel that he might believe that he knows enough to know what it takes to be a winner. Ive read where he sits in his office, distant nd alone for hour upon hours going over and looking for these little intangibles that he sees as important. Now, Im dont know at all what hes doing in his office alone and what hes going over so I dont know how thats helping him. But I feel that a head coach needs to be more available and out talking to coaches and learning new schemes. Not to implement new schemes but knowing them will help you be able to beat them easier. Like Belicheck. Hes a defensive coach. But hes always talking to coaches at all levels to learn more about not just plays, but strategies. Like when USC had that explosive offense he called the coaches and talked to them to learn more about how the offensive system worked. It might be unrelated but Brady has done pretty good after that. We all know how Belicheck loved to run Metcalf up the middle. But hes still looking at new and other systems to implement into his own. Even in differant sports.
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Quote:
One thing I will say is the Vincent Jackson comparison is off. He was a pretty big guy at Colorado State and he's only gotten bigger over the past few years(in a good way). He's fast, tall, and really physical. He's of the Anquan Boldin mold now.
Robiskie is never going to be in that category.
Ok....editing because I had it in the first post...and said it better than I did this time.....wasn't comparing VJ to Robo. was comparing MoMass' ceiling (the best he could ever become) to VJ.
VJ is the deep threat for the Chargers and probably the ceiling for MoMass....I don't think MoMass is quite as physical as VJ was coming outo f school, but if you want to hope, that is the guy to compare him most to on this list.
Last edited by no_logo_required; 10/02/09 05:07 PM.
#gmstrong
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That's useful information showing that just because our receivers aren't doing anything, WR is probably the second toughest position to acclimate to in the NFL. That's been an historical fact for years, but that doesn't stop the human condition from panicking early.
When you factor in Quinn's inability to throw the ball downfield this season, it's not difficult to see why Mass hasn't been on the stat lines.
As noted when we drafted them, I'd stated our 2nd round receivers were for the future, not the present. To expect them to do much was unrealistic.
Now I did feel that Robo could help this team as a slot/possession guy, but not much beyond that this year. Of course he can't do that if he isn't even active......Mangini
On the Berea Report, they said that our WR's were not getting open. Period. I don't know if it's that they suck, or if it's the routes they are running. When your receivers are not getting open down field, you have to take what the D gives you. Unfortunately for Quinn, who is not a chance taker like DA, this doesn't work.
Mangini is going to have to start playing these guys at some point. What we have out there now is not cutting it.
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On the Berea Report, they said that our WR's were not getting open. Period.
And Mangini said they were. Period.
I also saw open receivers when Anderson got into the game. Period. 
I saw Mass running to a TD had Quinn gotten him the ball. I saw .........Well........you get the picture.
Our receivers are open. Quinn hasn't been getting them the ball.
We don't know if Anderson will be able to, but it's not like Edwards can't get open, and it's not like Furrey can't get open.
We know why Quinn wasn't going downfield. Anderson will see the small windows that Quinn was afraid to throw to. I don't know if he'll be on target, but everyone will get to see that they are open when the ball is heading their way, simply because the camera will be following the ball.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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one of the escalator clauses in Brian Robiskie's contract is to catch footballs thrown his way, while buckeyes all over rejoice with their projedy,  
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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We know why Quinn wasn't going downfield. Anderson will see the small windows that Quinn was afraid to throw to. I don't know if he'll be on target, but everyone will get to see that they are open when the ball is heading their way, simply because the camera will be following the ball.
I can remember several times, three to be exact, where the players were so open for Anderson that the passes were picked by defenders who were as close to the open receiver as one could get. 
I'm sure receivers are getting open. It's virtually impossible for them not to be during the course of a game. But are they getting open on a consistent enough basis to get the ball downfield and move the chains I don't know. You can have a receiver open with defenders in the backfield chasing the QB and the play goes for a two-yard loss. The next play no one may be open and the pass falls incomplete. And the next play is a draw on 3rd and 12. 
I do know Mangini says they are open, but I also know that the TV show referenced above is manned by Doug Diekein, Jim Donovan and Sam Ritigliano. If they say they are not getting open then that causes me to doubt some of Mangini's statements or the circumstances in which the receivers are open.
Let's see what transpires Sunday. I do expect DA to go downfield more and force some balls when he shouldn't. However, some of them will be successful as they sometimes are. Let's just hope there's enough there to score some points and maybe win a game.
That will go a long way toward settling down some of the rabid negativity on here while simultaneously being a huge ego feed and gloat enhancer for the DA supporters. (Honestly, I don't know which is worse).
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Sorry, but unless it's caught by the very narrow lens of a network camera how the hell do you know who's open? As my Dad says, "Sometimes you're so full of BS your eyes are brown".......
As ddubia said we can speculate that people are getting open but it's just that....speculation. In the only game so far at CBS this year what I saw was Cribbs trying to be a WR and generally failing and BE running generally crappy routes.
Did Quinn screw the pooch in all this? Yes. Will DA fly in and save the day? Not unless he gets Braylon to start running better routes, puts Cribbs back on special teams, and becomes his own All Pro RT.
So I'm guessing we still have problems after Sunday.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Got news for you and anyone who REALLY wishes to know.
The offense is a FLOW. When it is not flowing at all
"Just because he is starting doesn't mean he is productive."
Nobody is productive. So just how can I sit here and listen to somebody telling me as if they REALLY know that Cribbs is not emerging.
I already stated he's not Productive...thats simple go look at the STATS.
Now football wise is Cribbs emerging. AS a player??? I don't know lets see the Offense get in a flow and see if Cribbs is or he isn't.
Look some of you claim I'm like Mangini's uncle or something. I just try to make sense of what they are doing. You all want to play the game of I'M Smarter than Mangini n Kokinis...while you don't even have a Football career which doesn't mean you don't possess some football knowledge so it voids you from discussion. No. But when you display some THOUGHTs as FACTs of certainty...its a joke.
Me, if I was the HC.
Heck...Cribbs probably would be our starting RB this week
MoMas would be starting at WR and Loadholt who we took on my insistence would be our RT!
But I would have never taken MoMas unless forced to by my OC. Let alone Robo.
But I would have went Center n RT with those first two picks...and if Tucker remained healthy....WOW!
But then again I have an OL background.
Oh n WR I probably would have taken Jarret Dillard with our 4th round pick.
but guess what...thats all fantasy crapola.
So what do I do when I'm not in control...try to understand what is going on.
Does it make sense? Yep.
fact is we are 0-3 and it stinks.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Sorry, but unless it's caught by the very narrow lens of a network camera how the hell do you know who's open?
Deductive reasoning tells you Edwards is open. He's been open since he got here, and it's not as though he's suddenly not open now. People gotta start using some common sense here.
When our QB's have gone downfield, quick glimpses have shown we had receivers open. And regardless of the results, when Anderson got into the game and started chuckin' the ball all over the place, the camera showed receivers were open.
Now it's inevitable some yahoo is gonna want to chime in and say something along the lines of "Nuh uh! Anderson made throws to covered receivers!!!" 
Take a look at the "highlights" (such as they are) on NFL.com. On the IDIOTIC int Anderson threw with 8:50 left in the game. Furrey was open on a crossing route. Anderson just did a stOOpid thing.
On the next pick, Mass was open on a cross when Anderson threw off his back foot.
Receivers are open. Getting the ball is the problem.
Not every receiver is open on every play. Not every catch is by a receiver who's actually got two steps on a DB or 'backer. However, I've seen enough to deduce we have open receivers. Quinn simply hasn't even given them the chance to catch the ball all year, and Anderson was in some kind superhero mode .
Anderson WILL give them the chance. They'll just have to work damned hard for it *L*
I'm gonna do my Diam routine now........................
You DOLTS WILL SEE.....................Just wait................YOU'LL SEE!! 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Agreed wholeheartedly. The "receivers aren't open" argument is a desperate attempt at making heads or tails out of the abomination that was the QB play with Quinn. If Edwards has a big game on Sunday, can I pat myself on the back?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Anderson WILL give them the chance. They'll just have to work damned hard for it *L*
The only problem is that the people he's giving the chance to are on the other team, and they don't seem to have to work too hard for it!!!!!
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If Edwards has a big game on Sunday, can I pat myself on the back?
Only if you ask for.........and receive...........my permission, as that's MY trademark.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Deductive reasoning tells you Edwards is open. He's been open since he got here, and it's not as though he's suddenly not open now. People gotta start using some common sense here.
Is he open? Or did he run the wrong route? 
I was at the Vikings game and the "receivers" were NOT getting "open" with any degree of consistency. Did one get open on occassion(s)? Sure.
On the DA plays last week where you say our receivers were open...we have little idea whether they were "open" prior to the throw being made.
Thing is...I agree with you that there HAD to be something available to BQ - down the field - more often than what he tried in the past two games. Had to be.
But he was/is reluctant to make that throw...for whatever reason...and that hurt the flow the eo was talking about above. He HAD to be relieved.
Bottom line is this...I agree with your assessment for the most part...but it's not like our WRs are getting open with any consistency (my view of the Vikings game) and our #1 WR is a bonafide T-U-R-D.
I hope DA succeeds and we get this team on some kind of positive direction.
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We had a top 5 pick. we botched yet another draft. We took a backup center that cant shotgun and then 2 wr in the second that are doin nothing. Status quo for the draft guru`s in cleveland.
We gotta get difference makers when we are getting top 5 picks. We dont have an elite rb, wr, db, lb, qb, and we go with a center at 23. Wow.....botchtastic
I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
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1. Was constantly being corrected regarding his reads (not unusual for a rook -- I expect this will come with time)
2. Dropped balls. It wasn't just one practice. It was a recurring theme. I think once he doesn't have to think so much before the ball comes his way, he'll be OK. We'll see...
3. Press coverage. BIG problem. Never seemed to be able to beat any of our DBs in press drills. This is my biggest concern with Robo. He has to get stronger. If he can't learn to beat press coverage in this league, I can't see how he'll ever develop into the #2 role. I think he'll be able to do it, but, again, we'll see...
4. Couldn't seem to catch on in ST. I'm not sure why this is. Perhaps he doesn't have the aggressiveness and fire to do it. Maybe it goes back the strength issue. I just don't know. However, if he isn't good enough yet to be our #2 and he can't play on special teams, then I can understand why he isn't dressing just yet.
Then why in the world did these idiots draft him so high when we have so many other needs on this team. - The idiots who ran the last draft need to be fired.
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My take is . . . It is definatly a reflection on the coaching.
From my vantage point, Robo was a #1 at OSU and his #2 was hartline. Even hartline has had a handfull of catches this season at miami and yet Robo can't even get dressed. I can't be convinced that a person that has been a WR on a top tier NCAA program will run worse routes than a fromer college QB that is just learning the position.
How does that make sence?
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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In the end, the only person looking like an idiot is you.
You've gone from predicting 2-14, to 10-6, and then to 0-16. I think that right there speaks for your credibility, or lack thereof.
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Also, let's not forget his father is a WR coach in the NFL..great bloodlines..
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Just Clicking
I didn't read this entire thread and I've seen nothing in the paper this morning. Is Robo going to suit up today?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think that kind of info is released an hour or two before kickoff, isn't it?
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I didn't know that,, Thanks
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Deductive reasoning tells you Edwards is open.
Sure, once in a while. My point was not that no one is ever open. That would be ludicrous. My point was that when watching on TV there is no way YOU could know who was open or when. Unless they show that view of the field on replay. Which doesn't happen very often.
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Receivers are open. Getting the ball is the problem.
Well, duh....... 
That's always been (one of) DA's problem(s). I have no doubt that he'll go downfield more than Quinn did. I also have no doubt that he'll throw at least 2 INTs (today). The question is how much will that hurt us.
I hope the guys that are riding DA's jock are correct. It would be nice to see some wins. I just don't see it happening this year with this team and this coach.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Legend
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Just clicking.. Robiski is active today, dawson, Lewis and Hadnot are inactive according to Channel 3, WKYC TV here in Cleveland.. I'll try to get a link Here ya go http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/10/cleveland_browns_dress_brian_r.html Quote:
The Browns did not announce a change at cornerback prior to the game. Speculation was that Mike Adams would replace embattled Brandon McDonald
I know folks were upset over Adams coming in and some even were beating up Mangini for it.. As suspected, it was speculation of the press..
Last edited by Damanshot; 10/04/09 12:00 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
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Legend
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Posts: 42,960 |
Ha,, looks like Adams did indeed start in place of McD.. But now it's the Bengals Second try and McD is in for adams..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Gotta give Adams his just due... He did well today..
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Well..the word is it is because Robo lacks or will not play special teams..which is crap in my book.We have one WR that plays on ST and that is Cribbs..not Edwards,Furrey,Massaquio,Patten..none of these guys are required to play ST
Sounds like a rumor to me... but I don't care who is or is not required to play ST... if the coaches want him to play STs and he won't, then sit him. Everybody on that list is a vet, he's a rook.. rooks play ST.. well everybody except MoMass and he showed today why he is on the field.
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Did Robo see the field today?
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Legend
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I don't even know if he was active.
yebat' Putin
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What's the deal with Robiskie?
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