DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Mac - Time for Browns to Admit Mistake with Mangini

For those of you that are worried about the Browns becoming the laughing stock of the NFL umm take your head out of the sand and take a look at what the national press is saying.

Phil Simms has been beating Mangini like a drum. He has berated Mangini week after week it almost sounds personal.

The guys on NFL network have a running joke of the Mangini error. NBC announcers have question every single decision mangini has made.

Agents warning players about coming to Cleveland isnt just idle talk.

Look the talented players we have were here when Mangini took over. Many of our talented players have regressed under Mangini and they are still better than what he has added.

The guy is the joke of the NFL and it isnt going to get better. DAboll is proof that the guy isnt making smart decisions.

Pat...says a lot of stuff and frustrations that I have too.

I dont' see the calling for the end of the Mangini era this soon - although he does make a good point about Rogers, Thomas, DQ , EW on this team and why are we as bad as the team was with Dorsey and Gord...at QB where a big thing is a first down.

I think so much is falling on the QB position and in this I do blame Mangini to a great degree...he mishandled it from the beginning - the Competition??? BIG MISTAKE.

Should of named one...anyone and stuck with him.

All I can say is - I don't want change. But I also know this if he's putting his Apples into the DA Basket...he's endangering his status here. He still thinks he is going to get that Great DA he sees in practice. ain't going to happen.

If he loses the team...I say its time for a change. You cannot lose a team as a coach. He hasn't yet...but he playing with fire right now.

JMHO

If we are basing Mangini's worth as the Browns head coach on the performance of his team, I would have to agree with McManamon, he should be fired now. Realistically, Mangini will likely have the rest of the season to change our minds.

It's highly unlikely that Lerner would pull the rug out from under Mangini during the season and I question if Lerner would admit that he made a mistake in hiring Mangini and fire him after just one season.

My concern is, so far, I can't find one area of this team that Mangini has improved with his vast football knowledge and coaching experience.

I do believe it's time for the media to hold Mangini up to a reasonable standard and end the honeymoon period. No one expected a miracle but this team may not win another game if they continue to play the type of football we have seen so far this season.

Also, it might be time for Lerner to hire a football executive to run his franchise and remove himself from the hiring and firing process. A Bill Parcells type who knows how to hire coaches and run the football side of the franchise is needed, IMO.

I know Mangini was not handed the best team in the NFL when he was hired as the Browns coach but I can't find anything positive that Mangini has done for this franchise since he took over in Jan.

It's time for the media and fans to start discussing the possibility that the hiring of Mangini was a mistake. I did not enter this season with rose colored glasses and it's not the W-L record that concerns me the most. It's the lack of progress and not seeing any sign of improvement in the team.

Honestly, I see nothing to be optimistic about when looking at the future of the Browns with Mangini as our HC. Mangini has the rest of the season to produce some hope for the future...his future and the future of the team...jmho...mac

j/k


We have had regressions in alot of players, and haven't seen any upgrades from the players Mangini brought in (besides Mack). People acted like he inherited this roster, and that's BS he freakin' did an overhaul last season, and replaced avg./below avg. talent with utter crap. This roster for the most part is HIS, and he managed to take bad team that had some talent, and turn them into the worst team in the NFL. Phil and RAC didn't do that...........he did. Nobody forced him to sign/trade/draft the utter garbage (AM aside) that he did. That was his decision, and he should be held accountable for it.


I expected a coach coming into this situation to improve upon a decent nucleus of young talent. I did not expect regression from said nucleus of talent, and to downgrade everything he touched beside it. This isn't about W/Ls either, but about a team that just isn't even competitive anymore.

Tabber, you made a point about him losing the team.......well I think he has, and I'll tell you why. You remember RACs first year??? Man talent wise that team BLEW.............much less talented than this group, and besides from possible KW and then rookie BE we had no nucleus of talent. Well that team played hard, and was competitive in every game. Say what you want about RAC, but that team would have run through a wall for him. I'm sorry, but I don't see that kind of passion and competitiveness on a weekly basis from these guys. Bro they rolled over for the Pack yesterday. I thought things were going better with the effort I saw in the Bungels, Bills, and even Steeler games, but the effort just wasn't there yesterday.

I just don't see a reason to keep Mangini (or Kok for that matter) after this season. Somebody give me one......I want to believe this guy isn't a moron. However, every reason I've been given is crapola............the whole he inherited a mess excuse doesn't cut it with me, because these are HIS players. I also don't buy into the whole rebuilding process crap, because as Attack said he told Jr. he could win with this team, and a rebuild wasn't necessary. He then goes out and gut's the roster like Pioli said he would do...lol. Hell if I was Jr. I would fire him just for lying to me. Furthermore, RAC/Phil had a rebuilding year that 1st year, but that team played hard, and didn't roll over for anyone............can anybody honestly say the same for this team???.........and this team has more talent. As a matter of fact, he had more to work with than ANY HC WE"VE HIRED since rebirth. Palmer, Botch, and RAC never had a pro bowl LT, NT, STer, and upper echelon LG.........and that doesn't even account for the PB TE and WR he traded away (I gave him a muligan because both of those guys were asses). He is also on pace to finish with a worse record than any of them not named Palmer. Again remember Botch and RACs 1st year??? Remember how hard those teams played?? I ask again is anyone seeing that out of this team???

I'm not a fan of firing coaches/FOs all the time, but if I don't see some improvement from now until the end of the season I will be on the can Mangini bandwagon.

Again it's not about wins and losses..........nobody expected alot of wins this year. I did/do expect to see a team that plays hard and was competitive for a 1st year coach. Are you seeing that??? I sure am not.

I can see Mangini hugged up with DA and Daboll signing stand by your man.

QB position went from 2 capable guys to omg pathetic
OL gone from a strength to a joke
WR umm obvious
TE even more obvious

DL is starting to fall apart
linebackers is a freaking joke with Barton and Bowens
Safety Elam is about what Sean Jones was last year, you know when jones was playing hurt.
McDonald has regressed

Hey special teams is great woo hoo

It's not just the QBs (and I agree their play has killed this team). The QBs don't let teams go on 20 play drives in the 1st quarter (before the 3 and outs tire them). The QBs don't open up holes for the RBs or block for themselves. The QBs aren't the ones dropping catchable balls and running the wrong routes.

I mean again, in the 1st year of a new HCs regime his team usually buys into it and plays VERY hard. I'm not seeing that with this team, and that is a big concern imo.

The QB position is hardly our biggest problem and changes here will have less effect than changes at other positions. It's just the easiest one for average fans to grasp onto as it's the position most followed by the cameras on TV.

j/k

If we as fans are talking about weather to give Mangini another year, than to me that indicated failure and the next question is why give him another year, lets get rid of a mistake when our roster is already broken down, if a experianced older PROVEN nfl coach comes availible, lets make the move,

Even the fact were talking about it 7 games into the season is enough reason for me to make a move.

We game Palmer 1-2 more years, botch 2 more years., Rac another 2 years and well lets see where that got us.....1-6......see my point.

We have had regressions in alot of players, and haven't seen any upgrades from the players Mangini brought in (besides Mack). People acted like he inherited this roster, and that's BS he freakin' did an overhaul last season, and replaced avg./below avg. talent with utter crap. This roster for the most part is HIS, and he managed to take bad team that had some talent, and turn them into the worst team in the NFL. Phil and RAC didn't do that...........he did. Nobody forced him to sign/trade/draft the utter garbage (AM aside) that he did. That was his decision, and he should be held accountable for it.


Once more I have to bring up the draft..I wasn't going to give KoMan a pass on this..I said anyone could see this team needed talent..well I get the draft day deal he made...but then turn the draft into something special..go get the best players and get them out there..he didn't do that..
There's a reason I harp on the draft...you really can't rely on FA to get the talent..you overpay..go in the draft and get guys who are what you need..

No..and I sure am not waiting for 3 years to say it regardless of what these rookies do..they tried that ole trick of trying to out think 31 other teams instead of getting the talent available right smack in their face.

Dude I am so fed up with that ..and then I have to watch other teams who picked the players we should have and see those guys really contributing right away..

I did not like the influx of all those Ex-Jets..I said it reminded me of Policy/Clarke bringing in all those washed up 49ers..it didn't go far did it?
Hello..there are other FA's out there outside of NY..


Once more we a two-headed monster ..well one headed ..who simply doesn't understand the draft/FA..they managed to aquire more picks..but did they get the max out of it?

They replace K2 with a TE who can't catch and the recent aquisitions look tons better than Royal..go figure.




I expected a coach coming into this situation to improve upon a decent nucleus of young talent. I did not expect regression from said nucleus of talent, and to downgrade everything he touched beside it. This isn't about W/Ls either, but about a team that just isn't even competitive anymore..
It still is amazing that this defense is awful..it wasn't built up at all..how do you not bring upgrades?
I wanted AD gone but I thought KoMan would upgrade that spot..not bring in another below average MLB...that was the main spot that needed a shot of upgrade..and it got downgraded...

The Dline is better but not the LB's and certainly not the secondary..that really has gotten worse..

I just don't see a reason to keep Mangini (or Kok for that matter) after this season. Somebody give me one

I'll give you something to chew on..if Lerner fires them..who comes in?
Remember the same person who was star-struck with Mangini is the one who would now have to hire a new HC/GM...so you put stock that he could get it right , when he had the chance to get it right this year???
He made a hasty and very costly decision..and the best bet is to sever ties at the end of the year..

The only driving force is Bernie..perhaps he could advise him better..
I usually get a feel of these things and I know I said give the guy a chance..but I am having some serious second thoughts..
I don't feel he can turn this around after he's basically pounded it down..

Mangini signed 25 (now 26 I think) from this 53 man roster:

Barton
Bowens
Coleman
Costanzo
Elam
Estandia
Francies
Furrey
Gaines
Jennings
Mack
Madison
Maiava
Massa
Mosley
Poteat
Ratliff
Robiskie
Royal
StClair
Stuckey
Trusnik
Veikune
Ventrone
Womack
Yates

Scary isn't it? and he accomnplished that in ONLY 1 offseason...if we give this clown another one, we will have an expension team-rebuild on our hands.

Results, hard cold facts:

Game 1 vs. MIN

MIN 4.9yds/play, 310yds total
CLE 4.5yds/play, 268yds total (80yds on garbage TD)

Game 2 @DEN

DEN 6.1yds, 449yds
CLE 3.6yds, 200yds

Game 3 @ BAL

BAL 7.3yds, 479yds
CLE 3.6yds, 186yds

Game 4 vs CIN (OT)

CIN 4.9yds, 375yds
CLE 4.8yds, 395yds

Game 5 @ BUF

BUF 4.2yds, 288yds
CLE 3.3yds, 193yds

Game 6 @ PIT

PIT 7.3yds, 543yds
CLE 3.9yds, 197yds

Game 7 vs GB

GB 7.3yds, 460yds
CLE 2.7yds, 139yds

Improvements? 5 (!!) out of 7 games with 200 or less yds (would be 6 if not for the garbage gift TD in the opener)....that's BEYOND pathetic....moreso considering Mangini had 7 out 11 Offense starters from the 2007 Offense, not 1 single game with 5+yds/play...un-be-lie-va-ble

edit: Hey Attack...weren't you one of the (many) guys on here bashing me for trashing this draft right out of the gate? "too early to tell" BS? Now that it becomes more and more apparant that my assessment was/is right you act as if YOU were the one "harping" on the draft LMAO....you're NOW writing things YOU bashed me for 2-4 months ago, lol

People, including myself, wanted Andra Davis out of here ASAP. We thought he was just a subpar player...he goes to Denver and is having a probowl caliber year, his tackling is better, he stays in his gaps, he understands their 34 defense.

Instead of doing what good staffs do, raising the talen level of your players, we downgrade it. Brian Daboll has a handicap offense, no doubt, no NFL WR's on the roster, the worst QB in football, two joke TE's, the worst right side OL in the NFL. However, that does not excuse his formations and play calls. He runs the same 3-4 plays throughout the game, his formations give away what we are gonna run. Plus he uses routes that take way too long to develop in our 3 step drop passing plays. You couple that with Dereks complete inability to read a defense and get out of a bad play and the fact that it takes him 10 seconds to make 2 reads...you get where we are.

What talent we had has been traded, and the players that are left have been reduced to nothing, they all blend together in a big mass of total incompitence.

Defensively it is even more about talent, or the lack of any talent. Mainly brought on by Eric Mangini. 4 new starters are former Jets, Bowens, Barton, Elam, Koleman...all can be put in a great big trash bag, put in the can, and wait for the trash guys pick them up Tuesday. They stink royaly bad....

His one pick to address the Linebacker core was a projected second day DE from Hawiai, that was moved from DE to OLB, and then back to ILB...because afterall, Bruschi did it, so every college DE his size can.

Instead of looking at Everett Brown and Rey Rey, or maybe a RT in Loadholt, or a future stud back like McCoy. We go out and just waste 3 picks in round two, I'll give ya MoMass might become a good #2, but he has worse dropsies than BE, and half the ability.

I hear people than come back with "well he didnt have a full season to scout, and he didnt have his scounts in place"...neither did I, in fact I have zero scouts just as nobody on this board does. But I could have drafted circles around EM, just as so many posters could have build a much more talented team than he has. I also could have put together a much better coaching staff that he did.

I had posted some facts about EM vs. McDaniels in another thread, about both coaches roster turnover, choice of coaching staff, and parity talent wise of teams they took over. Both guys did thier thing, and brought alot of "their guys" in.

He's going to lose this lockeroom, I would think within a month, thats about when the blackouts are going to start happening on TV, and probably (hopefully) Lerner wakeups, and lets Bernie go out and get a football guy to run this franchise from the top, and Lerner keeps his nose COMPLETELY out of football, becuase EVERYTHING he has touched has been a total joke. He hired two of the worst HC's in recent history, and also gone about it in a completey wrong way.

If Randy decides to do this himself again "with advice from former GM's"...we'll be right back here in 12 months talking about the same thing with a different former NE/Billy coaching tree guy.

The problem is still much bigger than EM, its how he even got this job, and who and how that happened. That has to change, thats the ultimate reason we are the worst team in the NFL, and worse than the 99 team.

Anyone watch STO/Browns Redzone??
If so you might catch wind of whats happening behind the scenes regarding Gini/Quinn/Dumboll/Ryan...it might add to why Mangini might have to go along with Dumboll..

I'm not in the fire Mangini camp yet, but I'm bad close...lol. I just can't see anything he's done well since he's been here. After year 1 of Botch and RAC/Phil you knew they had a plan (even a half baked one), and could feel good about some of the things you saw on the field. I honestly do not see that with ManKo, and if that doesn't change by the end of the year then yeah I hope Jr. cans him and does a do over.

I watched it last night. Did you hear that black lady go on a rant about Mary Kay Cabot sucking up to Anderson? She then said that she's probably sleeping with him.....and they cut her off. None of them could keep a straight face. It was priceless.

If there's truth to what was on that talk show..he should be jettisoned along with Dumboll..or seriously considered letting go.
We saw this with Botch and his assistants..

Jafnent ...I missed 20 minutes of it..but I want to see where Diek/Sam were arguing about Anderson...and the remarks about Quinn..

I don't live Ohio anymore.....give me a recap of it if you can.....thanks bro.

I'd like a recap as well since i can't watch it.

They're replaying it a 1:30 this afternoon. I'm recording it because my wife wants to here that phone call.

I'm also having my wife record it..

What? I wanted to see if anyone here saw it..they have a message board and some were commenting on it..I missed a portion of it..but it pertains to the situation as it stands..
Sorry if you didn't get enough info..don't know why U want to get so formal now.

I have used the Botch title long before Mangini stepped foot in here..
As for me and U..I criticize when necessary and try to be fair until I see something that makes me think..this made me think otherwise..plus I see no improvement on the team....

U just bang and bang and never give any credit at all..
They have done some things but this team is worse than could have been imagined..

I was hearing of rifts but I wanted to make certain before I said anything.
U just take off and don't stop..


So Mangini having rifts with Ryan is the same thing Botch had with Fazio..and Airbrains..I did not know it was happening that much..

U were sounding like Vers unglued..and it's gets old DJango..I told U many times I wouldn't have drafted the way they did nor brought in the FA's they did..but I have not bashed the draft picks themselves like you have..it's venom with you..

U won't see me bash Mass..or Robo(Toad's guy) though I wouldn't have drafted either of them..same with Viekune..I still want to see him play..can't critique a guy who nevers gets to play.

Me ..no hatered....I want the best product on the field...
See underneath I know you're frustrated but man every post doesn't have to spew of hatered....and thats what it sounds like..
I was willing to say i'd give them a chance instead of hammering them from the start..
If he's lost the team he needs to go..

He said the team hasn't shown a lot of fire..Cribbs said he isn't out there on the field..well player is disputing HC words..so now what?
More infighting?

Well if he has lost the team then he should be let go..but guess who's decision that is?
Lerners..now as Jules said and I agree...he's the one who has to go from here and make decisions...and I cannot say at this stage what will happen..I simply do not know...I will see game by game whats happening..I do know I do not agree with everything I see happening..

They were refering to the story about Quinn correcting Mangini therefore Quinn was benched and Mangini wont even acknowledge his existence. Moral of the story is dont tell the Captain he pulled the grenade on the pin, just get out of the way and let him blow.

I have not heard this story, can you fill me in?

All details will be deleted here.

Go to STO's message board, you can find out there.

Wow. I wish I had seen that show.


BTW - Purp - I tried to post a link to a pick on there and got caught in the "I'm slow" childish trap someone setup. I do not see the humor. I understand you have rules on here, but belittling users (especially those who donate) is not the way to go...

jc

I think weee are...umm..right..where we' ve played ourselfs to be..and umm, that's what the record indicates".."the record is what it is and uh that's, THAT'S A REFLECTION OF, of what we've been able to do to this point..um, Do I think that we've made some strides? at points YES and, and WE ARE NOT GONNA STOP DOING THAT --- Eric Cartman 10/26/09

Eric thinks he can win with versatile system type players, he doesn't want any egos, and egos always accompany star talent.

Every move he's made since being here has proven that point over and over, he doesn't know how to manage egos or deal with problems. He just gets rid of any minor disturbance. That and hes also proven to have a terrible eye for talent.

Every start type player here had a run in with EM, Rogers, BE, KW2...2 are gone, and I would bet that if EM is here next year that Rogers is gone as well. Thankfully Thomas is a LT and a saint, or he'd probably be gone too.

We are totally stupid if we let him have another offseason to butcher.

Quote:

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Every start type player here had a run in with EM, Rogers, BE, KW2...2 are gone, and I would bet that if EM is here next year that Rogers is gone as well. Thankfully Thomas is a LT and a saint, or he'd probably be gone too.

---

WOW,..some of you are really starting to lose it over this guy. If you think BE anf KW2 are gone based on their egos you simply were not paying attention. KW2 has really helped the Bucs this year and BE's 1 catch in the Jets blowout last week could have really helped us.

Rogers is fine and EM seemed to get thru that altercation OK, Rogers could have easily been delt already , but I know, postponing his departure to next year (like you said) just sounds better.