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All Pro
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All Pro
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Quote:
"Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition" ....Michael Palin as Cardinal Xemenez
 Rotflmao!
I got the greatest visual when I read this. Funny stuff. 
Einstein could not even fathom the mathematical improbabilities of the Browns woes.
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Dawg Talker
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I'll throw my support in for Lerner, even though I thought he screwed up the coaching hire royally.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Quote:
Quote:
"Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition" ....Michael Palin as Cardinal Xemenez
Rotflmao!
I got the greatest visual when I read this. Funny stuff.
See, following threads can sometimes have rewards!
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I would like to see the Browns hire a coach that has already been proven to be a good coach such as Mike Homgren or Bill Cower. (not saying we would get them or they want to coach here) But I think at the end of the year Learner needs to ask himself if he feels that EM is his guy....if not this is the time to hire someone new. We have more draft picks then the year before and no matter who you have as head coach we are having to build again. The team right now is pretty well dismantled. In either case I think its pretty apparent the browns are not going anywhere for at least two more years maybe longer. Hopefully Learner can make some right decisions.
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Quote:
I'll throw my support in for Lerner, even though I thought he screwed up the coaching hire royally.
Which Coaching hire was that?  So many to choose from.....
Anywho, is anybody else a bit suss of the public sighting and apparent indignation of Lerner following on from the planned MNF protest story? All seems a little contrived for me.....
#gmstrong
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NOOOOObody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
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Yes I said I would give Mangini time BEFORE I this team started playing worse then a high school team.
I have never seen such god awful football in my entire life, I can't now possibly back the guy
At least Romeo and Butch Davis coached teams played hard, and atleast tried to tackle a guy....Mangini's team here looks worse than a division 2 high school team...
I stated then I would give Mangini a chance, then this garbage started, and I stated last week one more outing of this pathetic garbage and I would turn on him, and I have.
I did like Edwards trade, the Winslow trade ticked me off, and St. Claire and these old bums from the Jets make this team look absolutly horrid...I would bet Tim couch and the 99 expansion Browns could beat this team for petes sake...thats just sad.
I treid to support Mangini, I wasn't on board when he was hired, but this has just gotten out of hand.
Announcers and people are "laughing" at us for God's sake...did you har the comments they were making about Mangini and the coaching? they were laughing at us on Tv during halftime for petes sake.
that is strictly on Mangini, many on this roster is "his" guys...he is the reason we have what we got on the field today...the buc stops at his desk for this garbage...
The fact of the matter is Mangini could have kept both Winslow and Edwards here if the man would have a little bit of an attitude adjustment and work on his interpersonal skills and get players to buy into him, his "im a dictator" type of mentality just makes these football players, who are grown men, resent him even more. You can clearly tell most of the lockeroom can't stand the guy, the only guys in that lockeromm that like Mangini are his old Jets players, and that has caused a serious rift in the lockeroom, even a 3 year old can see that with the body language of these players.
Look im not being Knee Jerk here, with Butch Davis:
1st year 7-9 very competitive
2nd year 9-7, playoffs and one stupid Rudd helmut toss away from hosting a home playoff game in the wild card rd
3rd year a bit back, but lost 4 games by 3 points or less
romeo Crennell:
1st year the guy won 5 games, the team fought hard.
2nd year, we didn't do to well, but the team still fought hard.
3rd year: won 10 games barely missed the playoffs.
both Davis and Crennell had melt downs in their 4th year, Mangini's first year team looks worse than Davis + Romeo's 4th year meltdowns combined.
Romeo and Butch's teams in their 1st two years never played as god awful as this team has....Butch Davis won 7 games with a roster twice as bad as this one....Mangini has single handily destroyed anything we did have on this team.'
its just not working out, sometimes you have to pull the plug when things are cleary headed for diaster....it would be different if we was losing games by 3 points or 6 points, and we were in the games till the end, or were at least competitive in some way, but my my!
this team isn't even competitive, they don't even look like they even belong on an NFL field...thats solely on Mangini....when it gets "that bad"..you gotta pull the plug.
This team couldn't beat a college team...this team is worse than detroit was last year..in that case, ya gotta pull the plug...this is worse than an embarassment....
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If Lerner has any balls at all he will show Mangini the door.
This arrogant SOB has ruined what was left of most of our hopes and dreams.
I think I have figured Mangini out.
His plan from the beginning was to tear this team apart, then build it back so everyone would say what a super guy his is.
AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN PEOPLE.
This guy is so full of crap that his eyeballs are brown.
He is not now or ever will be a NFL coach.
He brought in not even good backup players.
Who knows what Kokinis can do. He might be a decent GM, but you will never now as long as Mangenius is here.
Ryan and the special team coach are the only NFL caliber coaches on this staff.
If Mangini were fired tomorrrow it would not be soon enough to suit me.
I don't care who they bring in to finish the year, it could not get any worse than it is now.
I just know that Lerner does not have the juice to pull the trigger.
If it were me, I would not have waited. I would have fired him at halftime and told Ryan you are finishing this game as head coach.
We will talk Monday about what happens next.
Hope springs eternal in the heart of a true Browns fan. GO BROWNS!!!!!
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NRTU
Butch Davis was a great coach and a poor GM. Remember he went 7-9 and then mortgaged the future to get 2 more wins. We were then in cap hell.
I firmly believe that Mangini will be successful if he is given time. The problem, he is a jerk. And it is hard to back a jerk when he is not winning. He is not very likable.
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Kinda like hiring the Ayatollah Khomeini to be at your kids birthday party huh. No fun at all. 
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Knight of Brown nailed it on two key points...AMEN!!!!!
"At least Romeo and Butch Davis coached teams played hard, and atleast tried to tackle a guy....Mangini's team here looks worse than a division 2 high school team..."
AND
"I would bet Tim couch and the 99 expansion Browns could beat this team for petes sake...thats just sad."
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1 L 20-34
2 L 6-27
3 L 3-34
4 L 20-23
5 W 6-3
6 L 14-27
7 L 3-31
8 L 6-30
78-209
only St. Louis is worse, but I'll trade rosters
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Practice Squad
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Quote:
NRTU
Butch Davis was a great coach and a poor GM. Remember he went 7-9 and then mortgaged the future to get 2 more wins. We were then in cap hell.
I firmly believe that Mangini will be successful if he is given time. The problem, he is a jerk. And it is hard to back a jerk when he is not winning. He is not very likable.
and the offense is a incredible wreck, even though the defense IMO is getting the foundation laid(though many on here won't agree). I think "firing Mangini" line ain't going to cut it. I know Deboll wasn't his first choice(and probably not his 2nd) for OC, he gave him a shot, but man. When we talk about the "historically" incompetent Cleveland Browns, it is the offense we are talking about. I know when teams like the Vikes or Steelers are turning it up, the defense will struggle with the talent they have, but when they do well as you would expect against a ho hum Bears offense, to only have your own offensive squad blow up to pure suckdom. The same thing happened against the Broncos as well.
My guess is Deboll is axed and Mangini works another OC. He can't be any worse, especially if the DA/Deboll rumors are true.
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Legend
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Legend
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What rumors?
Careful with what you say...
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I would bet Tim couch and the 99 expansion Browns could beat this team for petes sake
To be honest, Tim Couch looks better and better as the years go by....7-9 or 9-7 seasons look like a wet dream these days, not to mention the Charlie Fyre's, Derek Anderson's, Brady Quinn's, Luke McCown's, Bruce Gradkowski's, Ken Dorsey's, etc that have played since
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Then there is the right side of our O-Line. Maybe we should play a folding chair at RT
This made me laugh at loud...literally
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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I thought it comical today when the announcers were going through the list of QB's the Bears had gone through since Sid Luckman!
Heck, the broadcast would have ended before they finished the Browns list since that era!!!!
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At least Romeo and Butch Davis coached teams played hard, and atleast tried to tackle a guy....
He didn't nail anything. Let's not re-write history here...one of the main and most consistent criticisms of the Crennel Coached team was not looking prepared on gameday. With the exception of 1 good season, that era was crapola. Crennel was a shocking hire in a long line of shocking hires......ultimately, i think its time to look at whos doing the hiring..... 
#gmstrong
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What rumors?
Careful with what you say...
Ive seen this twice tonight too ...
Did I miss something this week about daboll and DA?
There are no sacred cows.
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I cannot believe it.
I cannot believe, after all we went through this year, after hearing how Mangini wants to create a team, how Lerner was so interested in Mangini, how continuity was important between a GM and Head Coach...
I cannot believe it, but we are right back to where we started LAST YEAR. The owner is pissed, telling the local and not so local media that this team is a joke, Mangini is crying about the OWNER OF THE GD TEAM looking over his shoulder, and we are talking about hiring and firings AGAIN!
Maybe it's the child in me, but I really wanted Mangini to succeed. I thought he was going to instill discipline, give us all a reason to look forward to his regime for the Browns. Instead, he not only proves that he learned absolutely NOTHING from his Jets job, but he has somehow, someway, become even worse of a coach and talent evaluator!
He has replaced our little talent that we had and somehow LOWERED the talent level. I know one thing, I am willing to bet a large lump sum of money that Mangini flat out lied to Lerner as to how he was going to go about running this team. I bet Mangini said he could win with this roster and then when he got full control, decided to blow it up instead.
All I know is this. We went from this dysfunctional team of last year to ANOTHER dysfunctional team this year, only the cast is different. If we go into next year with Mangini as head coach, I don't know how many fans will show up. He has botched it with the fans, botched it with the media, but MOST importantly, he has botched it with this whole team.
Why in the world would he say there is no way that Quinn can play, only to put Quinn in with the last three minutes to go? Why does he feel the need to have so many secrets and not stand firm on his decisions?
I know it's childish and I know it will probably not help, but I do not want this man or his lackey in the front office running the most important draft in Cleveland Browns history. If we do not hit on at least 75% of the players in our next draft, then we will be stuck in the suck for a Cincinnati like rut with no hope for the future.
Lerner and I made the mistake in believing in Mangini. I have admitted that mistake, however insignificant that may be. I can only hope that Lerner can do the same, or our draft and our team will be screwed up AGAIN.
/rant
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Maybe it's the child in me, but I really wanted Mangini to succeed.
No it's not childish at all, nobody wanted to see Mangini fail. Most people just had a good feeling it would happen after the lack of offseason moves and questionable drafting.
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Lerner....in attendance???
We have a Lerner sighting...repeat we have a Lerner sighting.
Osama's more high profile than that guy.
Hell I've seen Snuffleupagus more times than him.
Finally! Sheesh!
As a few have said on here previously, he is there basically every single game. This is the first time he's gotten vocal, but the guy is there. Get your facts straight before ranting.
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All Pro
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All Pro
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I think I have figured Mangini out.
His plan from the beginning was to tear this team apart, then build it back so everyone would say what a super guy his is.
Every egomaniac corporate guy in business i've seen who has failed has tried exactly that-they always end up trashing their area, going somewhere else and trying to do it again till no one will hire them...its an old story...same thing happens with sports teams...they are businesses too...
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I have been knocking on Lerner rather hard lately, I must say that I'm shocked by his reaction(s) its about time that he came and lit a fire under these guys especially Mangini and Kokinis our talent level has severely diminished since they took control of the team, sure we have more draft picks for next year, thats great but we still have no "Identity" other than a team and front office full of "Losers".
By midseason you think most of the offensive woes would've been ironed out and polished up a bit but they've regressed and keep on regressing as the season goes on. It almost seems like these guys don't wanna play for the coaches and I can't say that I blame them either. Heck after going 3 and out 4 or 5 times in a row you think Daboll would've shown some emotion on the sidelines when talking to DA but instead he smiles and laughs like this is a joke, wtf is that about. The only Coach that seems like he's trying hard to get the most out of his players is Rob Ryan, he does not have a whole lot of talent to work with on defense but he tries to get the most out of it and has these guys playing hard till they run out of juice from being on the field 3/4's of the game because our offense can't do squat.
If I was Lerner i'd put Mangini, Kokinis and Daboll on notice and tell them that they have till the rest of the season to show a noticable improvement by how the team performs on sundays and also how the staff handles treatment of the players. Also if i was Lerner i would meet with every single player on the Browns roster and get the concensus of what they think of the guys calling the shots are. All i know is that something needs to be done, somebody needs to get fired or something because we are not heading down the right road thats for sure.
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All i know is that something needs to be done, somebody needs to get fired or something
I think someone will get fired. Last time something like this happened Butch was shown the door.
Joe Thomas #73
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I think there are a couple of things to keep in mind.
First, I think Lerner opened his eyes to the fact that there really is no one to speak to Browns fans. Mangini talks football to the media, but that's all we hear. Last season, when things were going bad, Savage would hold "important" press conferences to address the fans. No one does that now. Kokinis is nowhere to be found. That's why, I'd guess, Lerner brought him up specifically after the game.
Secondly, in terms of the hiring/firing of coaches or canning Mangini specifically, I think Lerner is honestly and seriously confused. He wants to put a football guy in as team president, but he doesn't know who, especially at the midpoint of the season. Bernie Kosar seems to be the ONLY candidate for a position like this. If Lerner is comfortable with him, he'll do it. If not, he'll wait.
I think either way you're going to see a change at OC. Daboll is gone. He just has to be. My guess is that Carl Smith calls plays. I don't think Kosar will be inserted in that role, simply because he's never done it before. Still, it couldn't be much worse, could it?
Here's the bottom line. Lerner WILL hire a team president, whether it's now or at the end of the season. That person will be responsible for determining whether or not Mangini stays or goes. My guess would be he goes for obvious reasons. The question is, can you do this quickly enough to have a shot at the great coaching class of 2010, and assembling a front office and coaching staff that has ample time to prepare for a pretty important draft? This will be key.........
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Good post, and good points. Imo your probably not going to get a big name coach and I'll tell you why..........
1. If Lerner hires a Prez (outside of Bernie) from another organization that guy is going to want to bring in people he's familiar with. Unless it's the guy from Pitt (who might like the chin) he's going to bring in somebody he's familiar w Hith. That's what all the "mangini isn't going to be fired" folks don't get. Once Lerner started talking about bring in a real Prez the writing was on the wall for this FO. Whoever it is is going to want HIS people, and Mangini doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who you can pull the reigns of power in on him............it won't work, and that's the main reason he will be gone.
2. Those big name coaches want all the power, and with a strong prez they aren't going to get it.
Look for a scenerio like when Parcells took over the Fish. They fired everybody, and then brought in guys Parcells was familiar with, and who worked well together. As long as we bring in quality people to run things who are all on the same page I could care less if we get a "big" name coach.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Quote:
I think there are a couple of things to keep in mind.
First, I think Lerner opened his eyes to the fact that there really is no one to speak to Browns fans. Mangini talks football to the media, but that's all we hear. Last season, when things were going bad, Savage would hold "important" press conferences to address the fans. No one does that now. Kokinis is nowhere to be found. That's why, I'd guess, Lerner brought him up specifically after the game.
Secondly, in terms of the hiring/firing of coaches or canning Mangini specifically, I think Lerner is honestly and seriously confused. He wants to put a football guy in as team president, but he doesn't know who, especially at the midpoint of the season. Bernie Kosar seems to be the ONLY candidate for a position like this. If Lerner is comfortable with him, he'll do it. If not, he'll wait.
I think either way you're going to see a change at OC. Daboll is gone. He just has to be. My guess is that Carl Smith calls plays. I don't think Kosar will be inserted in that role, simply because he's never done it before. Still, it couldn't be much worse, could it?
Here's the bottom line. Lerner WILL hire a team president, whether it's now or at the end of the season. That person will be responsible for determining whether or not Mangini stays or goes. My guess would be he goes for obvious reasons. The question is, can you do this quickly enough to have a shot at the great coaching class of 2010, and assembling a front office and coaching staff that has ample time to prepare for a pretty important draft? This will be key.........
Yeah I'd fire Daboll first thing in the A.M. if it were up to me. I think Kosar would be a great choice in any job opening in regards to the Browns, he definatley has the football knowledge and buisness knowledge to be team President. I'd also look at possibly getting Marty Schottenheimer to fill that role if Kosar doesn't want those responsibilites. Something has to be done to straighten this ship before it sinks.
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Personally... if we don't get a big name coach.. i think Rob Ryan would be a good candidate.. and think Mangini needs to go now before he screws it up any more.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Quote:
Look for a scenerio like when Parcells took over the Fish. They fired everybody, and then brought in guys Parcells was familiar with, and who worked well together. As long as we bring in quality people to run things who are all on the same page I could care less if we get a "big" name coach.
I agree 100%.
The only advantage to hiring a big-name coach is increasing fan interest in the team. While that'd be nice right now, it shouldn't be the main focus of any new team President, General Manager, etc.
Football is about players working with coaches, coaches working with players, coaches working with coaches, scouting departments working with front offices, and down the line it goes. It's not about one guy. It can never be. That's why Mangini is so bad. He's so egotistical, that it HAS to be about him. The drafting, the scouting, the practices, the media sessions, it's ALL about him. Well, that's all fine and good if you win. Unfortunately, if you lose, you're toast.
It was interesting to read Pat McManamon's recollection of Lerner's conference with reporters after the game. Much more insightful than Mary Kay's writeup on cleveland.com. McManamon said that when asked if Lerner would fire Mangini in the bye week, he paused for about 10-15 seconds before shaking his head no. What does that say to me? That he WANTS to make a change SO bad, but realizes that probably wouldn't be in the best interest of the franchise during the season.
So the alternative? Hire a Team President who installs his own GM and Head Coach. Lerner wants to do it now. The ONLY way this can happen is if its Kosar. We'll know within the next week. If nothing happens, we'll have to wait until the end of the season.
Either way, something must be done. If we don't see a new Team President, my guess is that Daboll is gone. You simply can't have an outburst like Lerner's today, and then do nothing about it. Fans would be irate, and empty seats wouldn't only be during kickoff on MNF, but for the duration of the game.
Simply put, the ball is in Lerner's court. This should be an interesting week. My prediction is that Daboll's out, Carl Smith calls plays, Bernie Kosar takes an even more important role, Mangini stays, and a new Team President is hired at the end of the season, who promptly fires Kokinis AND Mangini. There's a chance Kokinis could be fired this week, too, since he doesn't seem to do much anyway.
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Quote:
Quote:
What rumors?
Careful with what you say...
Ive seen this twice tonight too ...
Did I miss something this week about daboll and DA?
I think I missed it too.
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Hall of Famer
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OP
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Quote:
Personally... if we don't get a big name coach.. i think Rob Ryan would be a good candidate.. and think Mangini needs to go now before he screws it up any more.
NO to Rob Ryan as a permanent coach. Do you see the frat party his brother is running in NY? Rob would do the same thing here and it's just not gonna work.
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If Lerner wants a President, I hope he considers Mike Holmgren. He then could hire John Gruden to be our next head coach. They have ties at green bay and san fran, so I think they could have a good working relationship. We then could focus our offseason attention in aquiring a franchise quarterback. I could see Bradford or Clausen being possabilities.
I do think Mankok is dead. The runaway train is gaining steam, and I see no end in sight until Lerner cans them all. I assume Daboll will be fired tommorrow.
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Quote:
If Lerner wants a President, I hope he considers Mike Holmgren. He then could hire John Gruden to be our next head coach. They have ties at green bay and san fran, so I think they could have a good working relationship. We then could focus our offseason attention in aquiring a franchise quarterback. I could see Bradford or Clausen being possabilities.
I do think Mankok is dead. The runaway train is gaining steam, and I see no end in sight until Lerner cans them all. I assume Daboll will be fired tommorrow.
Holmgren would be nice. So would Gruden. I'd love to see a coach here with some actual passion on the sidelines.
The other thing that I forgot to mention, and that is quite disturbing, is that Lerner basically admitted today that he has no idea what George Kokinis does. I'm just saying that if I was the owner of a billion dollar business, I'd like to know what my key people are doing. Plus, that was supposed to be one of the advantages of hiring Mangini and Kokinis. They were going to provide a clear and concise direction for football operations, while Mike Keenan and Dawn Aponte would take care of business things. Well, as Lerner suggested today, that clear and concise plan isn't working out too well.
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The question is, can you do this quickly enough to have a shot at the great coaching class of 2010, and assembling a front office and coaching staff that has ample time to prepare for a pretty important draft? This will be key.........
Welcome to the boards, aben1088. Great first post!
To answer your question: He CAN... if he starts TODAY. And if I were he, I'd go to a new well of info/mentorship other than Robert Kraft. He has a half-season's worth of head-start on putting the building blocks in place.
The problem with the ManKok hires were twofold:
1. He went about it bass-ackwards... focusing on Mangini, then giving him the keys to the Caddy, as far as hiring a GM.
2. Doing so at the end of the season.
If he was going to clean-sweep the Browns FO, he should have been doing his homework when it was apparent that the team was going to finish well below the .500 mark. Instead, he set his sights on Mangini, and took all the conditions Mangini set for his hire. Now, we seem to have a gutless, emasculated shadow of a GM, and a HC who has way more authority than he has the brains or acumen to handle... the exact opposite of the situation that was the Browns FO from 2004-08.
The truth (and the balance) lies somewhere in (or near) the middle.
Without naming names, Lerner can right this ship quickly... by locking down a good, solid Prez RIGHT NOW... behind the scenes... and giving him the benefit of the next 2 months to evaluate the current talent pool, assess who's available for key coaching spots when offseason arrives, and begin rebuilding this organization IN NOVEMBER '09... instead of waiting 'til January, and throwing a bunch of guys together when it's already too late.
Truth is- he should have been doing his homework in early October... when the appalling graffiti started showing up on the walls of 76 Groza. But it's not too late- if he hits the gronud running- starting TODAY.
Gawd, I hope he gets it right this time. I'm not getting any younger... and I haven't kicked the nicotine habit yet. I only have so many years left to devote to this passion/hobby I call "Browns Fandom."
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Thanks, clemdawg.
You make some great points. Even though Lerner doesn't think of himself as a "hands-on" owner, and is afraid of "getting in the way," he still should be in constant assessment of the team throughout the duration of the year.
My unfortunate feeling is that Lerner uses the offseason to put his people in place, and then takes the rest of the year off. When things go badly, he comes back to try and right the ship, but otherwise he stays far, far in the distance. This is why he has no idea what Kokinis' current role is. That is inexcusable.
How good does Rich McKay look right now? He was seriously interested in being the exact person that Lerner is looking for right now, but was passed for Mangini. You are indeed correct in saying that Lerner made a huge mistake in hiring Mangini before anyone else.
Does McKay still have interest? Who knows. But that's something that Lerner should be figuring out TONIGHT. You are spot-on in your assessment that Lerner should use these next three months in assembling the new regime behind-the-scenes. The question remains, is Lerner smart enough to figure this out? Or is he afraid to be accused of tampering by the rest of the league? Should be an interesting week to say the least.
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What has Rich McKay done?
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What has Rich McKay done?
He did construct a Super Bowl winner.
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Quote:
Quote:
What has Rich McKay done?
He did construct a Super Bowl winner.
And is toothless in Atlanta after driving them into the ground.
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What has Rich McKay done?
While McKay made some major mistakes in regards to hiring Bobby Petrino and giving Michael Vick, at the time, the leagues largest contract (although I don't think McKay or anyone else knew what was coming in that regard), he did manage to construct the current Falcons front office and coaching staff, which I think has done a pretty good job recovering from Vick and Petrino's failures.
He also guided the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to a Super Bowl championship.
In short, he's done more than anyone on our team has accomplished. I'm just saying that the guy was interested, and he looks better than the current structure of what we've got.
It's far-fetched to think that we can just go out and get a Bill Parcells. He's got some work to finish in sunny South Florida. McKay would be a good choice, if he's still interested. Plus, he has experience, which Lerner is awfully high on these days.
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