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So your saying that Mangini is free of blame?  Am I reading you right?
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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Nobody's giving him a "free pass,".....he is the owner. He calls the shots. He writes the checks. He makes the mistakes. You can criticize him all you want, but he's not selling this thing off. Deal with it, because WE cannot fix it.
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Because it's not that hard!!!
(1) Hire a President of Football Operations
(2) President of Football Operations hires a GM
(3) GM hires a coach and scouting department
(4) GM/Coach assemble coaching staff (so no Brian Dabolls are hired as OC)
President of Football Operatons ensures that GM and coach work together as a team.
Might not work to SB, but I guarantee we are not 4-12 or worse every year....
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"I feel bad for Mangini, because he takes the flack for Randy's mistakes"
That's certainly a different way of looking at the situation,and you are correct.
The only problem with your position is that Mangini just might be Randy's biggest mistake.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Quote:
Because it's not that hard!!!
(1) Hire a President of Football Operations
(2) President of Football Operations hires a GM
(3) GM hires a coach and scouting department
(4) GM/Coach assemble coaching staff (so no Brian Dabolls are hired as OC)
President of Football Operatons ensures that GM and coach work together as a team.
Might not work to SB, but I guarantee we are not 4-12 or worse every year....
It's not that hard?
Then why aren't all the teams in the NFL successful. I think it appears to be easy but it's a lot harder when you have to make the decisions especially when you don't have the ability to look back at hindsight.
The only decision that looked bad out of the gate was this one. Savage fooled 90% of the people that he was really was competent. And Randy hasn't had any other chances.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Nobody's giving him a "free pass,".....he is the owner. He calls the shots. He writes the checks. He makes the mistakes. You can criticize him all you want, but he's not selling this thing off. Deal with it, because WE cannot fix it.
Agree....then criticism needs to start and end with him. Especially after he picked Mangina when NO ONE wanted him and before hiring a GM. It was a disaster to start with. Yes, Mangina sucks, but anyone who criticizes Mangina needs to first start with Rudolph
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If you believe what you just wrote then you are clearly not paying attention to anything that is going on and are blinded by your desire for Mangini to be successful.
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Nope, it doesn't. It means the Browns were AWOL were in the front office which is a VERY big deal, with a guy that didn't care.
Remember, it was Accorsi who pushed for BOTH Mangini and Koko. My theory is different. My take is that Mangini had to take more authority than he wanted because of Koko's behavior. I also think it caused some serious confusion and disorganization top to bottom with the team. My guess is Mangini demanded Koko's departure and asked for Accorsi to get his old ass in here to straighten things around. Koko's Mangini's pick? BS. It was Accorsi's because that was who was advising Lerner.
What a mess Randy. I feel bad for Mangini, because he takes the flack for Randy's mistakes.
LOL>>> 
Dude you seriously need to keep posting..........your the funniest guy on here...lol. Mangini will be gone by the end of the year........but hey look at the good news it looks like your boy makes it the rest of the way this year. Mangini was the one who agreed and recommended Kok to Lerner (as did Ernie). This isn't a good thing for Mangini, becuase it is another one of his confidants gone.
Furthermore, this move was done so that a new prez could get a head start at bringing in his people......pssst not Mangini. Keep posting bro your priceless...
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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All Pro
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My theory...
Bernie = Consultant
Kokinis walks in the room... With Mangini, Lerner, Kosar, Brown, and Keenan.
It starts out with Lerner saying. "Ok guys, how are we going to fix this."
Kosar being himself states, "I think everyone needs to be held accountable. We need to bring in someone who has some experience at building a winner...".
Kokinis cuts him off, not being able to bear any more slur from Kosars mouth, "What the hell does he know? Why is he even here?".
Lerner cuts him off, "Well I was going to ask the same of you Mr Kokini's. Why are you here? Security please escort this man out of my building."
Kokinis jumps across the table and takes a swing at Lerner but Mangini saw it coming and stone colds his fist. Then says, "Make like a fetus and head out".
The two security gaurds carry Kokinis out and throw him on the street through a glass pane window Beverly Hills Cop style.
Mangini turns to Lerner and with his awkward little boyish smile says, "Just wanted to show my appreciation for you understanding where the real problems lie.".
Lerner - a little bewildered by what just happened and Mangini's comment, decides he'll keep him around for a few more games while Kosar and Brown find a new GM.
CoachB told me...
"I'm a mog. Half man, half dog. I'm my own best friend."
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Quote:
Quote:
Because it's not that hard!!!
(1) Hire a President of Football Operations
(2) President of Football Operations hires a GM
(3) GM hires a coach and scouting department
(4) GM/Coach assemble coaching staff (so no Brian Dabolls are hired as OC)
President of Football Operatons ensures that GM and coach work together as a team.
Might not work to SB, but I guarantee we are not 4-12 or worse every year....
It's not that hard?
Then why aren't all the teams in the NFL successful. I think it appears to be easy but it's a lot harder when you have to make the decisions especially when you don't have the ability to look back at hindsight.
The only decision that looked bad out of the gate was this one. Savage fooled 90% of the people that he was really was competent. And Randy hasn't had any other chances.
Look at the teams that are/were consistently horrible in the past decade....they didn't have this structure...Detroit, Cinci, Cleveland, Oakland, Redskins, Arizona. Yes, others have struggled of late, but they have had success and there are ebbs and flows. Again...didn't say it would equate to playoffs/SB in two years, but it would be contunuity, stability, and vision. If it led to an 8-8 season, I'd be giddy....anything besides this eternal hell I'm in from week to week.
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If you believe what you just wrote then you are clearly not paying attention to anything that is going on and are blinded by your desire for Mangini to be successful.
Sir, your not getting it. Koko wasn't doing his job as GM. Basically leaving Mangini alone to do that job, which of course got crossed and knotted so we are left with crap and way underperformed. Koko just wasn't fired, he was taken out by security. That is bad. I don't know what the future of Mangini is, but he deserves to rest from the complete blame, especially as we further find out what "Koko" was doing, which was bad.
It does make me wonder how much is real or false.
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It's pretty obvious to me what has happened.
Lerner had no clue what was going on.
He didn't really care either.
Then the team get so bad that fans are organizing a boycott.
Then he hires a consultant to find out what the hell is going on.
The consultant tells him that Kokinis didn't even know that BE was traded.
He also tells him that Erin O'Brien is just collecting a paycheck too.
Both get fired.
Lerner understands that the status quo isn't going to fly and he had to get involved.
Now he's looking for someone to run this thing so he doesn't have to.
I think being in attendance in Chicago and watching DA put up a ZERO QB rating embarrassed him. Good that he's doing something.
What took ya so long? That's my only question.
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Legend
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Quote:
CoachB told me...
He also told me Charlie Frye will be a superbowl MVP!! 
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Quote:
It's pretty obvious to me what has happened.
Lerner had no clue what was going on.
He didn't really care either.
I cannot believe you are foolish enough to believe that Randy Lerner isn't paying attention to a billion dollar business.
you had a good run Hank.
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agree completely....The guy is a JOKE...J...O...K...E
The Browns are his cash cow...why would he ever sell
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I agree about the structure, but as a good friend of mine reminded me this week (wink...wink...you know who you are) it starts with getting the right people. I want structure and a strong leader for 2 reasons.
1. More accountability for everyone involved
2. It means Lerner only makes 1 hire, and thus reduces the chances of him screwing something up.
With all that said though, we still have to hire the right person to head up the organization or this is all BS and we will once again fail. Here's hoping we get the right guy.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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I'll agree with that. Randy definitely needs to be more hands on. At least in the building a few times a month. Not doing so, has put this franchise in the mess it is now. Mangini has fleeced him time after time. how he still has his job today, I'll never know.
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Quote:
Quote:
It's pretty obvious to me what has happened.
Lerner had no clue what was going on.
He didn't really care either.
I cannot believe you are foolish enough to believe that Randy Lerner isn't paying attention to a billion dollar business.
So you're telling us that Rudolph knew Mangina was pulling the strings all along and that he was OK with it because he thought Mangina was the next Belichick? And all the talk of a strong GM/coach relationship was just a ruse to fool the media and fans?
If he didn't know until now that Mangina was the GM/coach then no, he wasn't following his $1B business.....by the way...it's only a $1B business if he sells and someone is willing to pay that price
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Quote:
Quote:
It's pretty obvious to me what has happened.
Lerner had no clue what was going on.
He didn't really care either.
I cannot believe you are foolish enough to believe that Randy Lerner isn't paying attention to a billion dollar business.
Lerner said himself that he didn't know what George Kokinis did.
Reread that sentence.
Keep reading until it becomes clear.
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If Mangini was making trades without Kokinis, that would be the end of the both of them,
there is no I in team... there is one in idiot, two of them.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Quote:
It's pretty obvious to me what has happened.
Lerner had no clue what was going on.
He didn't really care either.
Then the team get so bad that fans are organizing a boycott.
Then he hires a consultant to find out what the hell is going on.
The consultant tells him that Kokinis didn't even know that BE was traded.
He also tells him that Erin O'Brien is just collecting a paycheck too.
Both get fired.
Lerner understands that the status quo isn't going to fly and he had to get involved.
Now he's looking for someone to run this thing so he doesn't have to.
I think being in attendance in Chicago and watching DA put up a ZERO QB rating embarrassed him. Good that he's doing something.
What took ya so long? That's my only question.
The consultant didn't need to know, Lerner already knew though Mangini, this firing was going to happen for weeks. Mangini didn't hire Koko, Lerner did through Accorsi, who thought he would work well with Koko. But Koko basically quit fast on the job. Yeah, a part of Mangini doesn't mind it because he can build the Browns completely in his vision, but the otherside of it how it relates to getting the team ready to play games was a disaster.
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Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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And there in lies the Lerner Mistake, three times a charm.
Hire a GM and let the GM hire the coach.
Davis was both
He hired Crennel before Savage
He hired Mangini before Kokinis.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Just chiming in.
I think that this whole debacle is an absolute embarassment on this franchise.
It's so blindly obvious that this season has tobe soley placed at the hands of the head coach. Kokinis wasn't the one calling the shots, it was Mangini. With Mangini and Lerner taking shots all around from the fans they chose to use Kokinis as a scapegoat.
I'm in no way shape or form upset with Kokinis getting fired because he did nothing for this team. But I hope that Randy hires someone as president who knows what the hell they are doing, to hire a gm that knows how to evaluate a coaching staff and players, that fires Eric Mangini.
I will gut out this season but I am going to tell you right now if that SOB Mangini is here next year I am done with the Browns until he is gone, i'm not spending another dime on this pitiful team, they don't deserve it. I hope everyone will take the same approach as me, It's time we as fans send a shockwave through the Browns that hits them hard enough to make a change.
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Boy this makes things interesting in Cleveland. To be honest it really is starting to look like that Mangini will be gone at the end of the season.
My one worry with the two of the available coaching candidates Dungy and Gruden is that both of them are in love with Tebow and Tebow scares the crap out of me as a top 5 pick (which we will have). I really don't see Cowher coming here, he turned us down last year when we had some talent. Why would he come now when we are clearly one of the worst teams in the NFL? Also Parcells isn't leaving Miami, so it would be interesting to see who Lerner has in mind for a President.
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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It's so blindly obvious that this season has tobe soley placed at the hands of the head coach.
....who was hired by Lerner when no one else wanted him.
You got everything else right...hire a President...a FOOTBALL president...not a marketing manager, not a PR chief...a freakin football president who's done it before and done it reasonably well....
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My one worry with the two of the available coaching candidates Dungy and Gruden is that both of them are in love with Tebow and Tebow scares the crap out of me as a top 5 pick (which we will have).
Oh god you think things are bad now. I shudder using a top 5 pick on tebow! 
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Quote:
It's pretty obvious to me what has happened.
Lerner had no clue what was going on.
He didn't really care either.
Then the team get so bad that fans are organizing a boycott.
Then he hires a consultant to find out what the hell is going on.
The consultant tells him that Kokinis didn't even know that BE was traded.
He also tells him that Erin O'Brien is just collecting a paycheck too.
Both get fired.
Lerner understands that the status quo isn't going to fly and he had to get involved.
Now he's looking for someone to run this thing so he doesn't have to.
I think being in attendance in Chicago and watching DA put up a ZERO QB rating embarrassed him. Good that he's doing something.
What took ya so long? That's my only question.
Very good summary. Exactly the way I see it too. That being said, those that have bashed DPM need to check yourselves. He might be an attention getter, but at least he got Lerner's attention. I'm not giving him all the credit because I do believe Kosar was hired prior to the Protest being put together.
Still, Kudos to DPM and more kudos to Lerner for paying attention and sincerely caring.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It's pretty obvious to me what has happened.
Lerner had no clue what was going on.
He didn't really care either.
I cannot believe you are foolish enough to believe that Randy Lerner isn't paying attention to a billion dollar business.
Lerner said himself that he didn't know what George Kokinis did.
Reread that sentence.
Keep reading until it becomes clear.
Maybe I should have rephrased it.
If you don't think he cares, then you're foolish.
I do not think he knew what was going on...that much is clear.
you had a good run Hank.
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Trying to gather information via a number of sources, and here's what I've got:
ESPN's Chris Mortenson reports that Lerner is trying to lure Ernie Accorsi as the "consultant" that we've been hearing about. This was reported by Mortenson via his twitter feed. Accorsi, Mortenson writes, has a great relationship with Bernie Kosar. But he also recommended both Mangini and Kokinis to Lerner during the interview process. Interesting.
The OBR (Orange and Brown Report) reports that security officials were NOT involved in escorting Kokinis out of the building in Cleveland.
So I believe the "consultant" that PFT (Profootballtalk) says has been in the building for over a week is Accorsi, who is working with Kosar.
No word on long term options, or how long Accorsi will be staying with us.
Mary Kay Cabot says that Lerner had a long conversation with Dawn Aponte (who controls all contractual negotiations and is the "business" person within football operations) following the game last night. Aponte came here with Mangini from the Jets. She previously worked for the NFL. Cabot seems to suggest that conversation played a part in firing Kokinis.
Peter King, via Twitter, says that Kokinis was miserable in Cleveland, according to a scouting friend of his. King says Mangini was in control of ALL decisions in Cleveland. (Wouldn't this be a breach of Kokinis' contract)???
_________________________
Sooooo, from everything I'm hearing, it sounds like Mangini certainly didn't stick up for Kokinis in the process, and played a part in convincing Lerner that he needed to go. No word on what Lerner is thinking in terms of a long-term answer to the position of "Team President."
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Quote:
so it would be interesting to see who Lerner has in mind for a President.
To me there is only one guy out there that has the credentials in knowing what it takes to make a winner and recognizing talent. And that person is Marty.
To me he is the only clear cut choice serving in the same role that Parcells does for Miami.
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I'd roll the dice on him in round 2....but you would really need an offensive coach who would use him properly. Not a defensive coach
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Peter King supported by theory. Basically Koko wouldn't work with Mangini ala Pioli under Belicheck so basically he stopped doing his job. Mangini never wanted Koko. So with nobody in the front office doing their job, we had anarchy and completely listless teams.
He wants his own Pioli. Give it to him Randy!!!!!. Then if the team doesn't get better next year(like 8-9 wins better) then sell the team!!!!
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Quote:
Mangini never wanted Koko.
Mangini HIRED Kokinis.
you had a good run Hank.
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We already have a capable fullback in Vickers!  I think mangini might resign on thursday. I can't say that I heard it from somewhere because it's just a "rumour."
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thanks aben, for the legwork. 
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Quote:
Quote:
Mangini never wanted Koko.
Mangini HIRED Kokinis.
Nope. Lerner did through Ernie's advice. But the problem was, Koko didn't like playing Pioli to Mangini's Belicheck and quit doing his job. This would effect Browns on gameday, ESPECIALLY offensively. Starting to get a little clear?
Lerner deserves the blame. Mangini may be a power monger, but he was not treated fairly. If Lerner didn't understand Mangini's contentions, he should have never hired him.
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To me there is only one guy out there that has the credentials in knowing what it takes to make a winner and recognizing talent. And that person is Marty.
To me he is the only clear cut choice serving in the same role that Parcells does for Miami.
Everybody loves Marty and Marty mentioned it would be real interesting if he was a President and Cowher the coach, which would be amazing but unlikely. If I remember right other than that possibility Marty pretty much said he wasn't coming back to football.
Go Browns!!
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I will say that if there is a full out coaching change next year I hope that the new coaching staff chooses to retain our special teams coach (name slips me at the moment) and Rob Ryan. I really like what Ryan has done with the defense this year, if we had a little more talent and an offense that could do ANYTHING I think our defense could be something special.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kokinis escorted out of building
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