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"This is a pure power play by [Eric] Mangini," said a source close to Kokinis. "It's been that way from Day One. George was promised in his contract to have full control over all personnel decisions and reporting only to the owner. Mangini has chafed over that from Day One. I guess he thought that because of his friendship George would come in and just be a yes-man."
If this is true, then why didn't Kokinis simply use his contract as leverage when making decisions. Sounds to me like he's just a weak man who allowed himself to be bullied by Mangini. I don't mean that to say that Mangini wasn't in the wrong, but jeez, George, grow a set!
Maybe Kokinis, like Toad says about Lewis is also a (sounds like wussy).
#GMSTRONG
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Maybe Kokinis, like Toad says about Lewis is also a (sounds like wussy).
That's what I'm thinking. Maybe that's why Mangini picked him. Maybe he figured he could intimidate him.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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For the life of me, no matter how I look at this from various angles, I keep coming back to one thought.. There is more to this than a simple football decision.
I'm of the opinion that manginis days in Cleveland will end at the end of the season.. What I don't understand is why fire Kokinis and use the phrase 'with cause"?
This is getting wierder by the moment.......
#GMSTRONG
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What I don't understand is why fire Kokinis and use the phrase 'with cause"?
It's all about the benji's. We'll probably never know what really happened. 2.5yr's of Kok's salary is a lot of money, even to Lerner. Personally, I agree with the "rhymes with wussy" crowd.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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It's all about the benji's. We'll probably never know what really happened. 2.5yr's of Kok's salary is a lot of money, even to Lerner.
Ain't buying that line of thinking.. the few millions it would take to make Kokinis go away wouldn't even dent Lerners pocket.. Something (more than just a losing season) happened to tick Lerner off.
If it's JUST a losing season, bad picks etc.. then you wait until the end of the year to fire him. No need to rush.. Then you work out a settlement with him and off he goes, no legal hassle. Just like Lerner did with RAC and Savage and Collins. The only other IN season firing (if that's what it was) was Butch Davis.. and still then, he paid him off.
I have to believe that was as much or more than Kokinis was owed upon his termination.
NO, I don't think it's about the money at all... Not even a little.. this is anger.. the question is, about what?
#GMSTRONG
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Ain't buying that line of thinking.. the few millions it would take to make Kokinis go away wouldn't even dent Lerners pocket.. Something (more than just a losing season) happened to tick Lerner off.
First, millions dent anybodys pocket. Don't lose sight of that fact.
Second, how do you know it isn't going to ding Lerner a little harder then you suggest?? A lot of wealth has evaporated over the last couple of years. If his billion has turned in to 300 million, you bet he is watching the numbers.
No matter the amount, the percentages remain the same. If you and he both sustained a 50% loss in net worth, you would both be equally alarmed and look to make changes.
Don't be so cavalier with Lerners money.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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First, millions dent anybodys pocket. Don't lose sight of that fact.
I think you need to do a little research.. his net worth was over 4 billion before the slide.... and that didn't count the Browns. That would have put him at between 4.6 and 5 billion in net worth depending on what value you place on the team. That's a helluva starting point.
Koks is owed under 10 million I believe ( haven't found the exact number).. Cut Lerners net worth to half, and still 10 to 15 million to avoid legal complications and the public issues that arise from legal actions is CHUMP CHANGE. Anyone can see that it could very well be cheaper and wiser to just pay the man and move on. As he's done in the past.
Lerner is going to pay out something.. Legal fees for SS & D are going to run into the millions. Fred Nance doesn't come cheap...
No telling how that case will play out,, arbitration with the NFL taking a lead role? Settlement in the back room,, somehow, there will be money spent.
Lerner isn't an idiot, he knows that.
That's why I'm saying the money ain't controlling his decision in this case.. I think it's anger.. and I don't know at what.
I'm not being cavalier with Lerners money.. What I am doing is looking at it and seeing that no matter what, Lerner is going to pay a big number out.. either to Kokinis or to his lawyers or both..
And that could end up being more than it would cost to just pay Kokinis his contract and move on.. At the least, it could be close. the real difference may be as little as a million or two.. Dunno.
I'm telling you, there is more to this.. Lerner is angry with Kokinis for something beyond the football mess. I mean, the man had Security walk Kokinis out of the building. An act generally reserved for someone that has committed some severe breach of ethics or policy or conduct..
That should tell you that there is a helluva lot more to the story than meets the eye.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I don't think him being walked out of the building has anything to do with it.
A lot of business owners, when they cut ties with an employee, have the employee escorted out the door. That doesn't mean Lerner wasn't angry with Kok, I'm just saying....
Either way, the Browns are a dysfunctional bunch, worse than we've ever witnessed with this football team; and that's saying something. And daman, a few million bucks is still a few million bucks. Lerner is likely tired of being like Elvis, giving away houses and Cadillacs.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Lerner is going to pay out something.. Legal fees for SS & D are going to run into the millions. Fred Nance doesn't come cheap...
I imagine he probably has the lawyer on a flat rate for the issue.
But I agree with Peen Damon, Millions dent most anybody's pockets.
These people with these rich lineages and old money. They're thinking toward the future and how to protect their wealth. Often that comes from being cheap.
I know a woman who dated Ted Turner for like a year. "God he was a cheap ..." was one of the descriptions she gave of the guy.
I wish i knew Lerner's arguing point verses Kokinis' arguing point. May be it's as simple as Lerner saying that he wasn't working, and Kokinis saying he wasn't being allowed to work.
But it could be something more! Can't wait.....
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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the man had Security walk Kokinis out of the building. An act generally reserved for someone that has committed some severe breach of ethics or policy or conduct..
this just isn't true. At my company, whenever a significant engineer or manager leaves, they "get walked.". Doesn't matter if they're quitting, if they're getting laid off, or in the very rare case someone is fired... If I were to put in 2 weeks notice on Monday I'd probably be walked by lunchtime Tuesday, and I've only been there 3 1/2 years.
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Most positions of responsibility involve having and handling sensitive materials that would be valuable to any company's competitors. In my company, any departure (fired or quit) is monitored and accompanied.
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I don't think him being walked out of the building has anything to do with it.
Really? Then why wasn't Savage, RAC or collins walked out with Lew Merletti and another guy.. Why was thier termination not termed as being "FOR CAUSE" as was kokinis.
this is different.. and I can't explain why...
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A lot of business owners, when they cut ties with an employee, have the employee escorted out the door. That doesn't mean Lerner wasn't angry with Kok, I'm just saying....
True enough, those are usually employees that would have access to sensitive company information. What could Kokinis have that is that sensitive.. Financial Information on the Browns? (I doubt that) Draft Stategy? Who'd want it? or Maybe Manginis manual for building player loyality? I don't think so...... 
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And daman, a few million bucks is still a few million bucks. Lerner is likely tired of being like Elvis, giving away houses and Cadillacs.
I can't believe he'd take that approach.. yes, a few mill is a few mil,.,, means a ton to me and you.. I'm sure lerner doesn't want to lose a couple of mil.,, But again, it comes down to what it means in relation to what the potential costs could be...
I still say, money isn't the issue.. there is more to it.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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A big giant mess and Eric Mangini is in the center of it. How embarassing.
The Cleveland Browns have become the most dysfunctional franchise in all of sports. - Thanks to Eric Mangini.
Lerner has to get rid of him.
This is beyond ridiculous.
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Discovery is going to be fun here. Can't wait to see all the privates become public.
Oops wrong site!
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I imagine he probably has the lawyer on a flat rate for the issue.
No doubt,, 600 maybe even 1000 per hour... real cheap.. Now tack on the cost of losing a case.. and paying for Koks attorney if it should happen.. I'm telling you guys,, it's not the money.. there is something else
Peen brought up the money as being significant.. and it is.. I am not questioning it.. I'm saying that by Lerners standards, he's playing on a different field..
Believe what or who you want.. I still say, it's not the money that is guiding Lerner in this matter. if it was, it would be easier to just pay Koks to go away...
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These people with these rich lineages and old money.
Ahh,, I get it now 
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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this just isn't true.
People get walked out for many reasons.. some companies have that as a policy.. But as I mentioned earlier, this is a departure from the norm at the Browns Facility... Have you heard of one other person being walked out by security.. let alone Lew Merletti himself? I haven't..
If they walked everyone out, then it wouldn't be a big deal,, But they don't, making it a different and unusual.. I don't remember any other high level guy being fired and have the press be told it was 'for cause".. again making things different...
Believe what ever you want. but this is Different...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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The Cleveland Browns have become the most dysfunctional franchise in all of sports. - Thanks to Eric Mangini.
Lerner has to get rid of him.
I don't have any special insight, but I bet he will get rid of Mangini or have the new GM do it,, but after the season. Just a guess however..
#GMSTRONG
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Second, how do you know it isn't going to ding Lerner a little harder then you suggest?? A lot of wealth has evaporated over the last couple of years. If his billion has turned in to 300 million, you bet he is watching the numbers.
No matter the amount, the percentages remain the same. If you and he both sustained a 50% loss in net worth, you would both be equally alarmed and look to make changes.
I agree with everything you wrote 'Peen, but, Randy Lerner and co. saw this lawsuit coming. He knew Kokonis wasn't going to simply go away without trying to get the rest of his money. He also knew that withholding Kokonis' money means having to pay a high priced attorney in order to defend firing Kokonis.
If money isan issue to Lerner, then why not keep Kokonis here and just let the contract run itself out?
Lerner also knows that an experienced "football man" or "Czar" will demand far more money than Kokonis, so why would Lerner open that door if he is remotely concerned about money?
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If money isan issue to Lerner, then why not keep Kokonis here and just let the contract run itself out?
Why not keep savage or rac or collins or davis or..,you get my drift..
Lerner has paid out the contracts of every high level person he's fired.. every one so far anyway.. so why Koks.. Then having it reported to the press that it was "FOR CAUSE"..
That's never happened before.. Koks did something or at least Lerner suspects him of something far more sinister then his apparent inability to work with Mangini and build a team of talented players.. JMO however.. and I'm sticking to it
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I totally agree with you also. But, I don't think money is an issue to Lerner, and that's what I was trying to discuss with 'Peen.
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LineJudge, I tend to agree. Quote:
"This is a pure power play by [Eric] Mangini," said a source close to Kokinis. "It's been that way from Day One. George was promised in his contract to have full control over all personnel decisions and reporting only to the owner. Mangini has chafed over that from Day One. I guess he thought that because of his friendship George would come in and just be a yes-man."
This quote from Grossi's article in todays Sunday PD gives me the thought that the Kokinis proceedings may actually work in Lerners favor, giving facts that may actually incriminate Mangini in this debacle and thus provide the "just cause" Lerner needs to fire Manigini and NOT be on the hook for his salary! 
Mangini is 100% responsible for this mess and I kringe at the thought of him personally handling 11 picks in the 2010 draft.
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Lerner isn't an idiot
I beg to differ...His dad was smart because he's the one who built the empire...Not so sure about junior, especially after how he ran this business for the past 5 years
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"It really came out of the blue to him," the source said. "I'm sure with every week's loss they decided they were going to do something to create some kind of diversion. They were under increasing pressure. If the team had been .500, I don't think this would have come down this way."
Why is Mangini getting all the blame here; when it was Lerner who was feeling the pressure by fans and finally made a move to appease all the numbskulls who are calling for heads. Mangini didn't have the power to fire George, an it was George whose contract gave him final authority over roster moves.
Right now I view this as Kokinis being the patsy. Fans started calling for heads and Lerner fired his GM. And unless some absolute bombshell allegations come out about some really poor conduct---then I see Lerner losing his "for cause" case.
When the source says, "they" were looking at creating a diversion. I believe the "they" is Lerner.
Where Mangini fits into this; we won't know for awhile.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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I don't know that Mangini was at full responsibility for Kokinis' firing but I can tell you that Kok was not being played as a patsy. A patsy is a scapegoat. But I'm certain no one held Kok responsible for the team's bad showing and absolutely no one was appeased by that firing. No one thought, "Good, that takes care of part of the problem". It took care of nothing regarding the lack of success of the team and that is what puzzles most fans and media. Why him and why now?
The Kokinis issue is a separate one. It was not used as any proof that Lerner is showing that he is taking care of the team's underachieving issues. His immediate firing is, however, proof that whatever went down was not about to be tolerated for even one more day. That sort of action is not conducive to any degree that he made bad draft picks or didn't help Mangini enough to this point. It was something intolerable to Lerner.
Lerner had to know that firing Kok now would bring even more National scrutiny to the organization and I'm sure he didn't want to bring that on if he could avoid it. The easy way to avoid that would have been to let him go at the end of the season. But the swift action indicates something more severe and immediate.
I tend to agree with Daman on this. Something beyond the team's performance was driving that issue and something beyond the amount of Kok's salary is driving Lerner's attempt to not pay him off.
As far as being escorted out of the building I'd bet everyone who was ever let go was ushered out in a manner. It's likely they were observed while collecting their personal effects, (or their representatives were if they were sent back for them), and that observation continued all the way to the door. That doesn't mean anyone had them by the arm gruffly pushing them along.
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I beg to differ
Keep beggin  Sorry, had to do it.
Opinions on Lerner vary,, he'll never shed the negative light until the team wins..
Looking back on those he's hired, Collins, Savage, RAC, Mangini and Kokinis... I don't see anything in thier backgrounds that make them look like bad hires on paper.
From the beginning, it was pretty clear that Randy was more a fan than an owner with vast football knowledge and dispite how smart some of us feel we are, I'm not certain we'd have done any better..
it's easy to sit here and say something like, "I'd have hired Parcells instead of savage" easy to say, but how do we know that Randy didn't contact Parcells and Parcells said no.... (Just using Parcells as an example here)
Hindsight is 20/20. the question is, what will he do now?
#GMSTRONG
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I don't think his responsibility ends at hiring the GM and/or coach and that's why I fault him
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I don't think his responsibility ends at hiring the GM and/or coach and that's why I fault him
Whatelse do you think he's responsible for,,,, in terms of the onfield product?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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I think you need to do a little research.. his net worth was over 4 billion before the slide..
I don't need to research anything...I think you need to quit saying a few mil here and a few mil there don't mean anything.
It does.
Ask Lerner if you don't believe me.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I don't need to research anything...I think you need to quit saying a few mil here and a few mil there don't mean anything.
It does.
Ask Lerner if you don't believe me.
Quit thinking like a fan peen.. to us, a million is a bunch of money.. but for a guy worth billions, it's not the end of the world.. Accept it, or don't.....
Also, what would his potential liability be if he loses his case against Koks. He could end up paying the salary he would owe Koks, plus legal fees and god knows whatelse.
i don't think he takes that chance unless he feels he can beat him. Which leads back to, What the hell did koks do? Oh, that was the point of my comment in the first place before you decided to take up the cause on the money thing.... Ya missed that part altogether..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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My guess is he'd rather not spend millions in paying guys not here...but I imagine he'd pay multi millions more if this franchise turned the corner and his on/off field issues eased.
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Quote:
I don't need to research anything...I think you need to quit saying a few mil here and a few mil there don't mean anything.
It does.
Ask Lerner if you don't believe me.
Quit thinking like a fan peen.. to us, a million is a bunch of money.. but for a guy worth billions, it's not the end of the world.. Accept it, or don't.....
Also, what would his potential liability be if he loses his case against Koks. He could end up paying the salary he would owe Koks, plus legal fees and god knows whatelse.
i don't think he takes that chance unless he feels he can beat him. Which leads back to, What the hell did koks do? Oh, that was the point of my comment in the first place before you decided to take up the cause on the money thing.... Ya missed that part altogether..
I am not thinking like a fan....you are...not saying you don't, but I have a few bucks stashed away....more than a few to be honest...I am telling you no matter how much you have you don't just hand it away and shrug you shoulders.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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more than a few to be honest...I am telling you no matter how much you have you don't just hand it away and shrug you shoulders.
Gees Peen,, When did I say he'd do that.. I've said that I'm sure he doesn't want to lose a dime, but you keep harping on this one little point and completly miss the rest.. Typical...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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You are using the 'what I would do' argument and projecting that onto Lerner. I just don't think that holds any water whatsoever.
Do I think the guy likes throwing money away? Hell no. But Daman's point and yours have equal validity as far as we know because we don't know Lerner the man, we don't own a professional sports team, and we don't circulate in his wealth cycle ... unless there's something you're not telling us.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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The one thing we do know is that Lerner didn't bat an eye at paying both Savage and Crennel after dumping both guys. He did make sure to note that Kokinis' firing was "for cause". That tells me that there is provbably something else going on. I have my suspicions ..... but know nothing for certain. I wish I was as smart and "in the know" as some on the board who seem to know all of the facts though .........
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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....more than a few to be honest...
I'm betting that if you could wash your hands of a total pain in the ass and be done with it once and for all and put it behind you so you could get down to the more serious business matters staring you in the face demanding your full attention while the National media scrutinizes your every move... and you could do that for a couple of hundred bucks, you would.
Not telling you what you would do. Just betting on it.
In my opinion there's some kind of principle behind this that goes far beyond the money. Lerner may end up paying more than Kok's salary and he knows it but is willing to take that chance likely due to whatever the principle behind this is.
#gmstrong
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Rish, Ytown and dd. Thank you.. someone finally got what I was trying to say..  Lerner has paid out to Collins, Davis, RAC, Savage that we know of.. why all of a sudden does the MONEY mean more to him than it did 3 years ago.. It's not the market,, look at it, its back up to reasonable levels and Climbing.. Many who lost wealth in the past year have gotten some of it back (depending on where you had your money.. if your's was with Maddof,,, oops,,, not so good for you then) Either way, Lerner started out with a net worth of almost 5 billion. If cut in half, he's still at 2.5 billion.. he's not worried about his next meal... So what made lerner fire Koks "with cause' and not want to pay him?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Lerner has paid out to Collins, Davis, RAC, Savage that we know of.. why all of a sudden does the MONEY mean more to him than it did 3 years ago..
Uh..think of money you owe to companies..would another 300-500 payment mean anything to you?
Dude can't keep shelling out millions to people who are GONE..plus pay people who are here..
Now that said, that doesn't mean that if Kokopuffs didn't do anything wrong that they should try to cheat the man..if he actually did something to breach his contract then yes fight the man..but there's something here...he either did something to warrant it or he is being railroaded..or set up..
I just find it odd that the man did his job in Bmore, but comes here with Manpolen and now there's a scandal..again a scandal..these mess is just plain ridiculous..
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Legend
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Legend
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Uh..think of money you owe to companies..would another 300-500 payment mean anything to you?
Dude can't keep shelling out millions to people who are GONE..plus pay people who are here..
Lerner has plenty money and he's set a precident. He's paid others that he's fired.. What did Koks do that made this situation different?
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Now that said, that doesn't mean that if Kokopuffs didn't do anything wrong that they should try to cheat the man..if he actually did something to breach his contract then yes fight the man..but there's something here...he either did something to warrant it or he is being railroaded..or set up..
Agree, 100% .. I don't think he's being railroaded.. if so, lerner has to know that it will eventually come out. That could cost him bigger bucks and some PR nightmares as well.. I"m convinced there was a major breach somewhere.. I just don't know where.....
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I just find it odd that the man did his job in Bmore, but comes here with Manpolen and now there's a scandal..again a scandal..these mess is just plain ridiculous..
No question about it.. something is rotten in this. Koks may not have been the answer here, but there isn't anything in his history that indicates he's a crook, liar or any other negative thing you could call me.,.
Something smells horrible..
Just thinking out loud here,, Mangini throws his old boss under a bus (I'm not debating the reasons, but he did do it.. Spygate) He slides right in to replace his old mentor (RAC) and doesn't even seem to flinch.. He hand picks Kokinis then all of a sudden, the team falters and there goes Kokinis... and now we're hearing rumblings of misinformation about practices and anger among the players...
Major smokiing gun there folks... Make of it what you will, but at this moment, I'm sure Mangini is the problem here..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Oh..o.k...RL is just going o continue to throw money out on people being fired...yes that makes a lot of sense..
I don't know what Kokopuffs did..and don't claim to..
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Again with the money.,.,, forget the MONEY..
It's about what, if anything Koks did to get fired and not paid.. Everyone else got fired and paid,, Koks doesn't.. WHY?
Gees,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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