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It's a red-letter day when Derden makes more sense than 75% of the posters on this board.
I suspect that a good number of the Dawgs who want Mangini gone fall into 3 categories:
1. Those who didn't want him in the first place, for whatever reason
2. Those who got their cues from the media's spin on him
3. Those who have been influenced by other posters on the boards.
The rest may have good points for their antipathy, but MIGHT be a bit premature in demanding his ouster.
I get that he isn't charismatic, engaging, animated on the sidelines, or particularly likable... but none of that matters to me. What does matter is this:
Whether you believe him or not, Mangini just laid out the basics of his plan for rebuilding the team for us... and it sounds a lot like the same philosophy that was employed by Paul Brown- founder of the team, and father of Modern American Football. The same philosophy that has worked for decades, and is being currently employed by teams like the Steelers, Colts and Patriots. (Ya picking up on a theme here?) If you ask me, that's a pretty damned good model to follow. Mangini didn't get into the specifics of each and every position, but he did lay out the absolute essentials for the one thing this team has been missing since the return- a culture of character, accountability and team-first mentality. Paul Brown's teams had it in spades... and the last time we saw it here in Cleveland was during the late 80's, when we were coming oh so close.
So what if he's trying to do it with sub-standard talent at present? We're the Browns, for Gawdsake. We've been plagued with sub-standard talent since 1999... and we've also had players riding motorcycles into trees (in breach of contract), players who have been arrested, players who have chartered helicopter flights (against the orders of coaches) to college games and missed team meetings, players who have been involved with drugs and stabbed by crazy girlfriends, players who have partied after-hours and run down pedestrians, FA's and high-drafted players who have raped the team's coffers for insufficient on-field play (and got away with it), players who have [insert random foolishness here]...
I said it a couple months ago, and I'm reiterating now: one of the most necessary things The Browns have been lacking was a hardass coach who could instill order into this bunch of underachieving, me-first individuals. If it takes some bleach, a stiff brush and some elbow grease to clean out the mold at the foundation... and trade-away surgery to excise cancerous tumors from the body, then who's to say that's a bad thing?
Watch HGTV this weekend. There's a home renovation show called "Holmes on Homes," where a guy comes into a trainwreck of a house construction situation, and fixes it the right way... from foundation to roofing, if necessary. The first stages of the rebuilds are always ugly- and the most important part of a successful fix. Mangini (or any coach that would have been hired into this situation) is in that "fugly" phase that MUST come before the construction can take place, and the client can start to see where the project is heading. 'Pretty' comes later... much later, in our case. Savage was the previous contractor- the one who slapped some drywall over the real problems, added a few gaudy fixtures, and tried to sell this 'ghetto construct' to a starved and willing client. And a good number of us bought it- hook, line and sinker.
I'll take lower-quality talent that fits the philosophy for a year or two, and do so gladly... if I can see progress during Year Two and beyond... and let's face an inescapable reality here- we are only at GAME EIGHT of an entirely new regime.
Browns fans used to give new coaches at least 2 years before they started hauling out the pitchforks, lighting the torches, collecting feathers and heating up the vats of tar. Now we do it BEFORE THE BYE WEEK OF SEASON ONE? How desperate are you people that you're absolutely certain this guy needs to be jettisoned?
I love'em like family, but I swear... sometimes, Browns fanr resemble unruly teenagers: they want and crave discipline and order, but they'll fight against it to their last breath, when the first "fugly" elements are required.
Time to grow up, suck it up, and do the hard work of fandom... let something- anything- ride out for more than 3 years.
This "quick-fix addiction" is wearing me out. It only prolongs the agony. Browns fans (and the media that fuels their motivations) need to start thinking in 5-year segments, instead of 5-week segments. Tis ain't no quick fix, Dawgs.
(And for the record: I was against firing Chris, Romeo, Chud, Arians, AND Foge. Butch fired himself in a locker room at Paul Brown Stadium, and I couldn't have cared less about him...like I said- character counts.)
Well spoken, I agree entirely.
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Time to grow up, suck it up, and do the hard work of fandom... let something- anything- ride out for more than 3 years.
We did that with Romeo and Savage, although we did fire coordinators who sucked...
Anyway, Mangini is not being backed up by the players one bit, we have the worst offense i can remember. Our QB play has never been worse, our offense is absolutely incohesive and our defense is ranked last as well.
Our manager couldn't work with him. A guy that Mangini recommended..........
I know a mistake when I see one. This is a mistake, Mangini should be out of the equation in my book. If we get our top pick to be president/GM and he wants Mangini gone before he signs up, I'm willing to do it.
This guy shows to be a bust in my book. We have all these draft picks, before we commit to something/someone that will never work, let's get something better we can use our high first, second, and the two thirds, plus our others (extra 5th and 6th I think?)
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Anyway, Mangini is not being backed up by the players one bit,
Another assumption.........????
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I think Mangini should get another year. We are in rebuilding mode, and he has put us in a great position to improve the team this offseason.
Great position..U mean no choice, the team HAS to be rebuilt.
But guess what?
The Browns know Manpoleon won't be deciding how to use those draft picks..he won't be making that call..the GM will..
I am sick of Lerner caving to public opinion and firing these guys every year, or few years.
So it was pressure from the fans..not that the guys he hired were screwing up????
Lerner fired Botch/Rac because of the fans..not because they hung themselves and their teams sucked?
If he fires Mangini at years end, then he minds well fire himself cuz he obviously doesn't have the fortitude needed to make a decision and stick with it.
Your coach made a decision about certain players and he didn't stick to it..hmmm U forgot that..
It takes time to build a winning program. You don't just switch coaches and have a dynasty. Especially if you are the Cleveland Browns.
Really?..then why is it 9 years in the making??
Just why have the Browns switched HC's??
And if you choose to answer that logically,then you'll have to eat a lot of the garbage you just said..I'm amazed there are some that actually bought it..
Dynasties are built with the right FO and HC..not just the HC...
Looks like some teams have built winning programs after getting the right people in place.
Mangini is the right guy for this job. He told me that when he shipped K2 and Braylon. He has a plan to rebuild this team from the ground up---and I am all for that.
Yeah you were sold the minute DA was starting..even if he is here , his plan better coincide with the new GM's plan..and lemmie splain sumptin to you...he knew he was going to trade both players..then you prepare well in advance and bring in players to fit what you're about to loose..and he didn't do it to the extent he should have...very short-sighted on his part..and the one position hit the hardest by those vacancies @ WR, he plays experiment on it by starting Cribbs..yeah that's a winning plan..that gets my vote of confidence..
Everyone is citing our record on the field for why Mangini needs to go. How about we wait to see how things go the rest fo the year. How about we give him the offseason and see what this team looks like next year before we start talking about him not knowing what he's doing.
How bout we wait to see who is hired to be the FO and see what they do about Manpoleon??
We keep hiring and firing, hiring and firing, starting over, and starting over.
And why do U act like you don't get whats been going on?
I mean seriously I could care less about the implications and the plans..
It's not my choice whether EM stays...it's up to the new people that come in to determine that.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/12/09 10:38 AM.
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Another assumption.........????
That's fair, but you don't see Jamal Lewis or any players stepping out in interviews, even post-game supporting Mangini.
They know he's in the fire right now, and you don't see them backing up their coach. No, instead you hear about Jamal talking about how he's retiring.
They might not be openly criticizing him (but that's the intelligent thing to do), but have you heard any reports that show any players giving him support? If not, what leads you to believe that the players do...........
It seems apparent to me from internal issues and this team's performance that this isn't the guy for the job. And if we go 3-13 next year and he's still our coach, I will be pissed. So yeah, I'm voicing my opinion now.
We've sucked for too long. This guy sucks too. Let's bring in someone good.
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Great post 
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No, instead you hear about Jamal talking about how he's retiring.
He will be gone...based upon age and wear and tear. He doesn't have to support or throw the coach under the bus.
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They might not be openly criticizing him (but that's the intelligent thing to do), but have you heard any reports that show any players giving him support? If not, what leads you to believe that the players do...........
I'm not saying that they do......what I am saying is that you don't know that they don't.
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It seems apparent to me from internal issues and this team's performance that this isn't the guy for the job.
What internal issues? kokinis? Once again it appears that we had a coach and GM not on the same page. Recipe for failure. Just like RAC and Opie.
This team's performance??? IT'S A REBUILD. We were NOT going to win many games this year. Change for the sake of change is never good, and that's what we have been doing.
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Anyway, Mangini is not being backed up by the players one bit,
Another assumption.........????
How bout a link proving the contrary? Silence from the players means that...nobody IS backing him....prove the opposite, give me a link
Since the anti-EM crowd has to provide a link for every opinion/deductive conclusion I might tackle you here and on that, right?
I've searched the HP and read lots of articles...never stumbled over something REALLY backing EM (like STRESSING it..."coaches try their best" doesnt qualify)....heck, Lewis was pretty clear in his post game rant, wasn't he?
It's beyond me how ANYONE wants to give this guy another year and, most importantly, offseason....I'm with Heldawg here
edit: also...Clem finished with it'S about character and I'm constantly screaming how bigoted teh guy is.....how about HIS character..he is the biggest MEshawn in the building.....look at his history of spineless action....how come nobody is tackling me on this issue? He isn't loyal to his mentor or devoted friends (OBrien, Koko)....and preached "team 1st" etc.
He will never build character in this org if he hasn't ANY himself...he's not the best role model....fining his players for BS and getting fined himself by the NFL...what else must he do to prove it?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Ho bout a link proving the contrary? Silence from the players means that...nobody IS backing him....prrof the opposite, give me a link
Silence does not prove that. That's silly.
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It's beyond me how ANYONE wants to give this guy another year and, most importantly, offseason....
Because we want to win....and not start over each and every year. It's not rocket science. How many games did you think we would win this year?
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I can't help but say this..isn't it pecular that another Bmore /Bellyache transplant comes in Cleveland and there is absolute chaos??
Kokopuffs was having a o.k time in Ratbird land but the person who hand-picked him to come here instantly has a eruption with him behind the scenes?
And now someone else has to be ejected after contracting the dysfunctional disease once again..
Dude never needed counseling when he there but he needs it now?
RL needs to leave that Bellyache tree alone..for good..thats not a tree thats a man-eating plant..
I read something that I agree with and actually said 9 years ago..the Browns have tried to be everyone else but themselves.
When Policy and Lerner brought them back , there was a strong San Francisco 49ers flavor.
And that was horrible.. with Botch, the Browns were the Miami Hurricanes.
And note..not the GOOD ONES...
With Rac and Opie, the team was a combination of the New England Patriots and Ravens.
And not any of the good ones..the throw-outs.. same with Manpolen..ex-Jets..the backup kind..not the solid impact players..but mere fill-ins and bandaids..yet this time with Kokopuffs coming from Ratbird land..no Rats..just Jets..
But I am going to point out the obvious.. we are starting over again even if Manpolen is here one more year..or just given the end of the year.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/12/09 11:07 AM.
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with Botch, the Browns were the Miami Hurricanes.
That was a BS statement back then and it is now too....
Mangini brought in some stopgap players that he had knowledge of, and you and I would probably do the same if in the same position.
Lotta roster turnover and more to come. *shrug*
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It's not about wins....1st year HC NORMALLY make their team OVERACHIEVE....happens EVERY year in the NFL...we aren't even competitive....even Cameron in his 1-15 season was WAY more competitive...
don't give me the "how many wins" BS....we beat the Giants on MNF last year....you think we have any chance against BAL this monday? See my McMan quote on top of page 3...the "he was dealt a bad hand" is just that...excuse for being a bad player
even Schotty said it...that we're not even playing to our capability...and yes it's been posted on here...go read it
Also, why does everybody need links and quotes? Just open your freaking eyes....you'Re going to tell me that the performances were the best this roster has in them? CHI played so bad, it looked like they didn't want to win....
Are you serious? Crennel in his 1st year had Shelton at LT and Jason freaking Fisk at NT and we were far more competitive.....the D-"schemes" (what I call teh ROLLOVER defense) and offense are a complete joke....friends are laughing at me because I call every play, even series by now and knwo how to beat our "D"....it's THAT easy and evident
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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It's not about wins....1st year HC NORMALLY make their team OVERACHIEVE....happens EVERY year in the NFL...
Dude, you are delusional. This team won 5 games last year and went into a rebuild with a regime change. Again.
Talent wins ballgames...it always has and it always will 90+% of the time.
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don't give me the "how many wins" BS....
Why? Because you would be embarrased to answer??? *LMAO*
DELUSIONAL
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Please..he had several Hurricanes..and not just drafted players..he also brought in players the Canes played against..and those weren't really that good..do I need to say Gerard Warren as one example??
What got me is if he so familar with the team why didn't he bring in the best ones when he had a chance?
Fact is he didn't have any good ideas on which to build a team..
He should have just been given coaching duties and thats it..he was not qualified to be a GM ..
And yet here today we have another repeat..a coach who has overstepped his bounderies..
Opie did have a plan but he let some things overtake him instead of sticking to his draft boards ,listening to scouts and not trying to win instantly...and not throwing his coach under the bus..even if that was not his choice..
But it still goes back to, we are starting over again.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/12/09 11:27 AM.
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That's fair, but you don't see Jamal Lewis or any players stepping out in interviews, even post-game supporting Mangini.
You don't see them doing any interviews on ANY topics....so what is your point???
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It seems apparent to me from internal issues
perceived internal issues...you don't knwo what the internal issues REALLY ARE or what effect they actually have upon the team.
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We've sucked for too long. This guy sucks too. Let's bring in someone good.
Based upon your rush to judgement.....can we do the same with you???? I am not trying to be a jerk..I am just trying to make a point....You do nothing but bad mouth the organization, you make rash and harsh judgements on things you have zero information about..you do nothing to support the team...So can we find a fan that actually supports the Browns to replace you???
That is basically the stance you are taking with Mangini....isn't what is good for the goose also good for the gander???
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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thank you for not even touching even 1 of my arguments....that about says it all Me delusional, lol that's a new low ...and I thought I was the negative Nancy around here
#gmstrong
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thank you for not even touching even 1 of my arguments....that about says it all
Well la ti dah....the guy that refused to answer my question is bitchin' cause I didn't delve into his comments afterwards. Classic!!!!
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Based upon your rush to judgement.....can we do the same with you???? I am not trying to be a jerk..I am just trying to make a point....You do nothing but bad mouth the organization, you make rash and harsh judgements on things you have zero information about..you do nothing to support the team...So can we find a fan that actually supports the Browns to replace you???
I do not suck, I am absoultely committed to the Browns. And I stayed behind our previous regime for four years, giving them 100% commitment for 3 of them. Don't give me this, I'm a bad fan garbage. Next year is a big year for our team, I want to make the most of our opportunity (cap-space/draft picks)
I watch every game and take a plane out to Cleveland once every year to make it to my football game. This year I was lucky I got the Bengals, last year I go to waste my money watching us play a thriller against the Colts. (sarcasm)
I have every right to badmouth the team. This team sucks. It's just about as bad as last year's when we had our 3rd stringer QBs in who never even played for us. Guys like Bruce Gradkowski.
We fired our General Manager, picked by the coach half way through the season. Our team looks sloppy, unprepared, and looks like they're playing without heart. This falls on the coach.
And then there's the media which laughs at us. Am I really going to give our head coach the benefit of the doubt? No..... Not on this one.
And i'm not a bad fan because I don't support Mangini. And just because I don't support Mangini doesn't mean I don't support the Browns. I'm saying this team sucks, because that's the reality. And I really resent you questioning my fan hood.
What contribution do you make to the team PETE? Hope you feel like an a-hole too.......
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Hope you feel like an a-hole too.......
yeah....nanny nanny poo poo!!! 
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OMG.....If you honestly thought that I truely wanted to replace you as a fan, then you are as dumb as a box of rocks. I was making a point. And obviously you got the point of view from Mangini's side of things....But you obviously missed the point being made entirely. The point being is that we have no clue what you do for the Browns as a fan.. we don't know how you support them...what your pregame rituals are, how much money you spend, whatever.....but we do know how you have poo pooed and acted like a jerk and rushed to judgement on issues which you have ZERO information on.....Much like all we have seen of Mangini is the unpersonable guy on the sidelines that is ticked off(and who wouldn't be the way we have played) and all we have heard is negative hearsay. We don't know what he is actually doing or how most of the people around him are working with him....So shall we just get rid of the both of you???? The point is that we shouldn't be making stupid decisions in either of those cases without true information....which we don't have......It didn't feel good to have someone question your loyalty and how you support your team did it???? Especially by someone who has no knowledge of what you do in support of the team. No one ever said you always have to drink the kool-aid in order to be a good fan, and I am not implying that either...But what I am saying is that rushing to judgement on something with little to no information (especially when what you do have is usually wrong) Is a stupid thing to do an there are far too many people doing that very thing. There are plenty of legitimate things to complain about concerning Mangini.....but too many people sound like Middle School girls in their cliques with their rumors and their grudges based on crap out for revenge. Quote:
Hope you feel like an a-hole too.......
Actually I feel pretty incredulous over the fact that your light bulb was so dim that you actually thought I wanted to replace you as a fan when I explicitly said I was just making a point.....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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2nd String
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I hate trying to read internet illiteracy...
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Our team looks sloppy, unprepared
Absurd. 
This team is a 1000% sharper. Gone are the days of RAC's "wander around offense" where the QB has to tell WR's and TE's named KW2 where they are supposed to line up.
Gone are the endless delay of game penalties due to us not getting the play in or the personel on the field. (remember how many times we tried to call back-to-back timeouts because we STILL weren't ready after the first timeout?)
Gone are the stupid penalties and free "keep-your-drive-going" personal fouls.
There's plenty of REAL issues to hate on - making them up - or worse yet not knowing what's going on, only makes you look like a goof.
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Legend
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Yea, aren't we the 2nd least penalized team in the NFL?
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Legend
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It's just that.....
#32 in TO differential
#31 in 3rd down %
#32 in Yds / Play
#30 Pts / Game
So, we're actually scoring more than our offensive output should...thanks to Mr. Cribbs.
#gmstrong
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#30 Pts / Game
Are you telling me that there are TWO teams scoring FEWER points than us???! I wouldn't have thought that was possible. Amazing.
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This team is a 1000% sharper. Gone are the days of RAC's "wander around offense" where the QB has to tell WR's and TE's named KW2 where they are supposed to line up.
I am not talking about penalties.
I'm talking about how they look on the field. The QB and WRs are not at all working in-synch. The offense as a whole is not working together correctly.
This has shown with our lack of production in the passing game and rushing game, although the WRs do have a huge issue getting space. But when they do get open, the pass is off target or late..........
And I have begun describing DA as unprepared ever since he had to come back into the game last year after Quinn went down. He was absolutely unprepared for the team he was facing (don't remember which) and we got beaten much worse than we should have......... May be I still haven't forgiven him for that one
Sure this team doesn't get the penalties we used to and we don't have the QBs positioning players, who sometimes screwed up passing routes, but Kellen always came ready to play. Ready to face his opponents. I don't see anything like that out of all of our starters.
Our team looks absolutely flat. We can't pass, can't run, and our defense has major issues defending the pass and the run. Nobody is making any plays, and our offense is not working as a cohesive unit.......... How does that not seem sloppy to you?
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Legend
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#30 Pts / Game
Are you telling me that there are TWO teams scoring FEWER points than us???! I wouldn't have thought that was possible. Amazing.
Once again....thank you Mr. Cribbs (we are actually tied with Oakland for #30 though)
#gmstrong
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No one ever said you always have to drink the kool-aid in order to be a good fan, and I am not implying that either...But what I am saying is that rushing to judgement on something with little to no information (especially when what you do have is usually wrong) Is a stupid thing to do an there are far too many people doing that very thing. There are plenty of legitimate things to complain about concerning Mangini.....but too many people sound like Middle School girls in their cliques with their rumors and their grudges based on crap out for revenge.
I'm sorry that I might have blown your point out of proportion. I just hate it when people say that. It's different when someone says "that's it, i'm quitting cheering for the browns." Then I get it I guess.
I get that you were making a point to it saying that I'm basing too many things on unconfirmed media reports. But I am just looking at the team period.
Here's a good question for you, Besides trading Braylon and Winslow (which I agreed with), what has Mangini done to really improve the team at all? We've had one good game, which our team has never reached anywhere close to since, and one win which was probably one of the worst games in the NFL this year.
I like what you're saying about cliques, but I'll have you know I'm in no clique. I just watch the games on Sunday, read the news that comes out, and try and form my opinion for the boards. Same thing I've done for here for like 8? years (counting all that time on the old Dawgtalkers, may it rest in peace).
I just believe that all signs are pointing to the fact that we have a problem. I think it's Mangini. Tyler said earlier that Lerner should fire himself because he can't make a decision and stick with it.
Well there's also something to be said about having the guts to say that you're wrong and making a new decision. Because from what I've seen on the field, and just realizing that his manager, the guy he chose, was fired mid-season. Now I don't know anything about his and Kokinis' relationship really, but I do know that his recommendation for manager obviously didn't work out. And whose fault is that one?
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And just so we're clear, I don't want Mangini fired now, unless that's what it takes to get the number one GM we want. I'd rather let him go at the end of the season, we can even step back and decide on him then. But I hope that when Lerner looks for this new leader for this organization, he doesn't have Mangini's needs in mind whatsoever. Mangini should be no factor at all in any decision made on a GM/President. Rather, the potential GM/President is the one that I'm concerned with, and they will be a major factor as to whether Mangini stays on.
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 11/12/09 07:54 PM.
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This team is a 1000% sharper. Gone are the days of RAC's "wander around offense" where the QB has to tell WR's and TE's named KW2 where they are supposed to line up.
Wow, this one will probably be #1 all time in most hilarious cheerleading/blind faith/dumb loyalty posts ever on here
1000% sharper....priceless
Gone are the days of RAC where we scored more offense TDs in ONE game than under EM in half a season....in are the days where your WR and TEs know where to line up but can't get any separation and drop any 2nd ball thrown to them....we are truly blessed...and yeah, 1000% sharper
Let this one sink in folks: 8 games into the season the Mangini Browns still have no RB or WR to score a TD on Offense....1000% sharper
Oh and Shap....in a rebuilding year the W are not important...I never expected them to be .500 but with a new HC who made this roster a lot older by bringing in MANY of his vets combined with a projected easy schedule I thought we'd be at least competitive....which we are not.....your stance basically gives EM a free pass on EVERTHING since we were supposed to suck on the W-L record....you just cut out roughly 120 plays a game, body language, effort.....yah, who cares about that....the consequence of your "thought" process is to shut down this board till next season....summary: you are basically saying, in a poor rhetorical manner I might add, that we should all just stfu....well at least that's keeping it real with Mangini-style, lol
If the players do not even care anymore after 4-5 games (Rogers and Williams smiling and shaking hands after GB beatdown at home etc) and not only look overmatched talent wise but also schematically and even get a more severe whopping in 2nd halfs because of being outcoached on adjustemts (or lack thereof on our part).....what else should EM ruin? does he have to beat up a palyer or assistant like Cable?
You know your team is lost when the cheerleaders' biggest PRO argument is a cut down in the penalties area....hey, maybe EM can return as "obedience coach" or something....or he should just open a pet obedience school...because the MAIN job of a HC is enhancing FOOTBALL performance...you know....the game....they are supposed play...so we saved 10-20yds per game on penalties at the expense of 100+yds on both sides of the ball...you do the math....I don't know about you, but I know what I'd prefer...just another EM outsmart trade
I guess I'm just not blessed to see the light of the "process" and teh fact that we are 1000% sharper 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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It's a red-letter day when Derden makes more sense than 75% of the posters on this board.
I suspect that a good number of the Dawgs who want Mangini gone fall into 3 categories:
1. Those who didn't want him in the first place, for whatever reason
2. Those who got their cues from the media's spin on him
3. Those who have been influenced by other posters on the boards.
The rest may have good points for their antipathy, but MIGHT be a bit premature in demanding his ouster.
I get that he isn't charismatic, engaging, animated on the sidelines, or particularly likable... but none of that matters to me. What does matter is this:
Whether you believe him or not, Mangini just laid out the basics of his plan for rebuilding the team for us... and it sounds a lot like the same philosophy that was employed by Paul Brown- founder of the team, and father of Modern American Football. The same philosophy that has worked for decades, and is being currently employed by teams like the Steelers, Colts and Patriots. (Ya picking up on a theme here?) If you ask me, that's a pretty damned good model to follow. Mangini didn't get into the specifics of each and every position, but he did lay out the absolute essentials for the one thing this team has been missing since the return- a culture of character, accountability and team-first mentality. Paul Brown's teams had it in spades... and the last time we saw it here in Cleveland was during the late 80's, when we were coming oh so close.
So what if he's trying to do it with sub-standard talent at present? We're the Browns, for Gawdsake. We've been plagued with sub-standard talent since 1999... and we've also had players riding motorcycles into trees (in breach of contract), players who have been arrested, players who have chartered helicopter flights (against the orders of coaches) to college games and missed team meetings, players who have been involved with drugs and stabbed by crazy girlfriends, players who have partied after-hours and run down pedestrians, FA's and high-drafted players who have raped the team's coffers for insufficient on-field play (and got away with it), players who have [insert random foolishness here]...
I said it a couple months ago, and I'm reiterating now: one of the most necessary things The Browns have been lacking was a hardass coach who could instill order into this bunch of underachieving, me-first individuals. If it takes some bleach, a stiff brush and some elbow grease to clean out the mold at the foundation... and trade-away surgery to excise cancerous tumors from the body, then who's to say that's a bad thing?
Watch HGTV this weekend. There's a home renovation show called "Holmes on Homes," where a guy comes into a trainwreck of a house construction situation, and fixes it the right way... from foundation to roofing, if necessary. The first stages of the rebuilds are always ugly- and the most important part of a successful fix. Mangini (or any coach that would have been hired into this situation) is in that "fugly" phase that MUST come before the construction can take place, and the client can start to see where the project is heading. 'Pretty' comes later... much later, in our case. Savage was the previous contractor- the one who slapped some drywall over the real problems, added a few gaudy fixtures, and tried to sell this 'ghetto construct' to a starved and willing client. And a good number of us bought it- hook, line and sinker.
I'll take lower-quality talent that fits the philosophy for a year or two, and do so gladly... if I can see progress during Year Two and beyond... and let's face an inescapable reality here- we are only at GAME EIGHT of an entirely new regime.
Browns fans used to give new coaches at least 2 years before they started hauling out the pitchforks, lighting the torches, collecting feathers and heating up the vats of tar. Now we do it BEFORE THE BYE WEEK OF SEASON ONE? How desperate are you people that you're absolutely certain this guy needs to be jettisoned?
I love'em like family, but I swear... sometimes, Browns fans resemble unruly teenagers: they want and crave discipline and order, but they'll fight against it to their last breath, when the first "fugly" elements are required.
Time to grow up, suck it up, and do the hard work of fandom... let something- anything- ride out for more than 3 years.
This "quick-fix addiction" is wearing me out. It only prolongs the agony. Browns fans (and the media that fuels their motivations) need to start thinking in 5-year segments, instead of 5-week segments. Tis ain't no quick fix, Dawgs.
(And for the record: I was against firing Chris, Romeo, Chud, Arians, AND Foge. Butch fired himself in a locker room at Paul Brown Stadium, and I couldn't have cared less about him...like I said- character counts.)
Well spoken, I agree entirely.
I disagree.
I have a problem with him not taking Denver's first pick for Quinn.
I have a problem with him not taking a first and fifth for Edwards and then using that pick (Giants, Eagles, Jets) to get Mack.
I have a problem with him giving up the 5th pick and getting what we got.
I have a problem with trading Winslow and getting a questionable player we easily could have gotten 2 rounds later.
I have a problem with him not getting a good, young Rt. Tackle or Guard in the draft.
I have a problem with him leaving big, strong running backs on the board and picking who he did in the second round.
I have a problem with him leaving a gift like Maualuga on the board in the second.
I have a problem with his attitude. When you win, you can possibly adopt this kind of attitude. Keeping information from the media and public is fine, but he takes it too far.
I have a problem with his selection of an offensive coordinator.
Your building analogy is fine, but Holmes' uses good quality building materials once he cleans out the demo. Did we get good quality goods for what we had going into the last draft? That is what scares the hell out of people. That is why we are either ready to jump ship, or have already. This is a special case. It now appears that if he mishandles this next draft we could be in very big trouble. I suspect 90% of the people on this board were willing to fully support him going into the season, but things have shifted to such a degree that many have just faced the facts. If there's going to be a rebuild, someone else is going to be the one to step in and do it.
No Derden, I don't fit into your three stereotypes.
And, I can't for the life of me figure out how you could justify keeping Daboll, like you stated a couple days ago.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
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I think we should fire Mangini today. Then we give the interim coach 3 games or so .... and if he doesn't turn it around .... fire him next. That gives the 2nd new guy a chance before the season is over. Then next year we have a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice at GM and Head Coach .... and if any of our fans are disappointed in any way ... we fire the first set of guys .... and bring in the next. If they don;t work out .. can them and bring in the next. That gives each set of guy at least 5 games ... and that should be enough to show something ..... right? 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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This is not directed to anyone in particular, but instead the general audience.
It's interesting to me how this discussion has evolved into an indictment on the fans. Let's think about this for a second:
Since we've been back, we've had 4 full time coaches now. Chris Palmer was fired by Carmen Policy, and certainly wasn't forced out by the fans. Butch Davis resigned because of "stress" and "pressure," which fan pressure certainly played a role. Romeo Crennel and Phil Savage were fired by the owner, who was disappointed with the way Savage conducted himself professionally and wasn't sold on Crennel as a game-day coach.
At most, the fans played a part in the ousting of ONE of the three coaches. Crennel lasted 4 years, which I think we can agree is ample time to build a successful core nucleus of players of which to build a team.
Now there's Mangini. You could certainly make a good case that the fans are pressuring Lerner to make a change. But its not just because of the results on the field. While that's played a part, the overwhelming issue is the way he has run the organization, the number of embarrassing stories that have come out about the team this season, the way he's communicated with the media, etc.
That's on Mangini, who doesn't come out smelling like a bed of roses in the Kokinis situation either.
I think if you're a fan, you have to ask yourself one question. Do you believe that, given the duration of his contract, Eric Mangini can turn this awful situation around?
If you do, that's great. Personally, he hasn't done ANYTHING on or off the field that leads me to believe that he can. That's my opinion. I respect yours and you should respect mine.
To suggest that our fans haven't had the necessary patience to allow anyone here to succeed since our return is amateur at best. For the most part we have a smart and knowledgeable fan base. While our coach is certainly smart and knowledgeable, there's a reason that so many players and team officials alike don't believe in him either.
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What are the "number of embarassing stories"?
Making players ay for water instead of allowing them to steal it from hotels?
Having a GM do something that caused the owner to dismiss hin in mid season "with cause"? (And Lerner has never seemed to be 1 to fire anyone without carefully thinking it through)
At this time no one outside of the organization really knows what the Kokinis situation really is, because no one is talking about it. Kokinis hasn't spoken on the matter that I am aware of. There have been rumors, and there has been speculation ..... but little in the way of actual facts.
There is so much stuff floating around that has taken on a life of its own that it is absolutely ridiculous. What if I told you that the reason that the Edwards trade was a surprise to Kokinis was that no one knew where the hell he was when the trade was being worked? I have no idea if that could be the case or not .... but it's probably just as likely a senario as any floating around out there.
When a team is going really bad ... all kinds of crap starts floating around. Som might be true .. some false .... and some stuff that goes on in any organization ..... but that only makes a good story on a losing team.
I think that Mangini took over, arguably, the least talented team in the NFL. I don't think that turns around in year 1. I think he tried bringing in players familiar with, and who could help other players learn his system.
However, talent wins in the NFL and this team had, and still has, little.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
This team is a 1000% sharper. Gone are the days of RAC's "wander around offense" where the QB has to tell WR's and TE's named KW2 where they are supposed to line up.
Wow, this one will probably be #1 all time in most hilarious cheerleading/blind faith/dumb loyalty posts ever on here
1000% sharper....priceless
Gone are the days of RAC where we scored more offense TDs in ONE game than under EM in half a season....in are the days where your WR and TEs know where to line up but can't get any separation and drop any 2nd ball thrown to them....we are truly blessed...and yeah, 1000% sharper
Let this one sink in folks: 8 games into the season the Mangini Browns still have no RB or WR to score a TD on Offense....1000% sharper
I won't spend a lot of time trying to pry your head out of your butt, (I think that's going to take a surgeon to get it out) but you may want to look at the team EM inherited:
12 Nov 23 HOU 16 @ CLE 6
13 Nov 30 IND 10 @ CLE 6
14 Dec 07 CLE 9 @ TEN 28
15 Dec 15 CLE 10 @ PHI 30
16 Dec 21 CIN 14 @ CLE 0
17 Dec 28 CLE 0 @ PIT 31
Exactly what production drop off are you talking about? I know you don't like to involve FACTS in your rhetoric but at some point I thought you might figure it out.
Yes, eight games into EM's stint here out offense is just as bad as it was when he got here. None of his rookies have taken over the league in the first eight weeks of their first season  EM failed to sign a rookie QB to a $100 Million contract... please..... I could go on and on and on - and on and on with facts you either can't understand or just choose to ignore - but I said I'd leave that for the surgeon.
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I'll let someone else bring up the subject of quarterbacks during that stretch of games you've posted.
#gmstrong
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Radio talk show, guy had a suggestion for the Browns
Once ND fires Charlie Weis the Browns can hire his as thier Coach and reunite Weiss & Quinn.
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Ken Dorsey and Bruce Gradkowski....along with other 10 starters missing....I hope that are enough "facts" for you.
Romeo in his 1st year had Fisk and Shelton at NT and LT, Dilfer/Frye at QB and Ncutt and Morgan at WR and Kenard Lang at OLB...and we were more competitive. This season we had one competitive game after he switched QBs (by breaking his own word...yet again)....the other 7 games we were dominated and are lucky to be 1-7 thanks to a Parrish brain fart (not even there a "forced" play)
Schottenheimer said we underachieve
J.Lewis said we underachieve
both suggested that EM is responsible for that
no player defends EM
that and what everyone of us can see with their own eyes every sunday...
....well, I don't need God to come down to earth to tell me what's going on here, Mr. "1000% Sharper"
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
I'll let someone else bring up the subject of quarterbacks during that stretch of games you've posted.
Are you suggesting that we've had better QB play this year than during the games I referenced?
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Schottenheimer also implied that the roster is in such bad shape that he would not be interested in coming here in any capacity.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Q&A with Eric Mangini **Great
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