The Ravens are sure crying over Quinn's hit on Suggs...
You don't hear Cribbs crying over getting clocked or the Browns complaining about that hit on Cribbs.
You can check out the thread about the BQ hit on Suggs in the Rats vs Browns game forum and clearly, the Rats are attempting to psych themselves up by overplaying Quinn's hit.
Maybe Mangini should consider playing Quinn at safety...since he's such a devastating tackler.
Quote: He has played in approx 6 games in the past three years as a QB...I bet he has not made - or even attempted - to tackle anyone since...maybe high school.
Keep reading, Willie. I explained it further either in this thread or the one in the last gameday forum.
I said the exact same thing, in that I don't blame a QB for making a split-second judgment mistake. But just because he didn't decide to ruin Suggs career, that doesn't keep it from being a cheap-shot.
Where I give Quinn a is by lying about it. He didn't intend on breaking Suggs' legs, but he did go low because that's what his instinct told him to do. What he didn't do was to go for the ball-carrier, and that bit of lying is something pathetic.
When Anderson did it, he admitted to it. When Sanchez did it, he admitted to it. When Quinn did it, he lied about it, and that sucks.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Speaking for myself...at some point, I believe the Browns must take a look at Brett Ratliff at QB.
He is a good sized guy who may know Daboll's offense better than Anderson or Quinn since Daboll was his QB coach last season in NY.
The Browns need to know what they have at QB and that includes our #3.
Time begin to begin looking ahead and find guys who can help this team in the future, IMO.
I'm sorry, I know with all this losing the preseason seems like forever ago. But, really do we remember what Ratliff looked like in the preseason? He starts game four, and his first pass is a pick six. He looked awful against second and third-stringers in preseason. Bartel went 12 of 14 in the preseason finale and got cut because Mangini was familiar with Ratliff. Even further, remember last year when it couldn't possibly get worse after Quinn and Anderson went down? I mean, we didn't score a single touchdown down the stretch playing with Dorsey and Gradkowski. I know we want to believe it can't get worse, but I think last year showed us somehow, someway it can.
Also, while the line is taking some serious flack and that is rightfully so. Quinn had happy feet that whole game (can't say I blame him, honestly). But there were plays he had time and bailed. Everyone keeps using the line and receivers as an excuse but I've seen plenty of plays where he had time to throw, an open receiver, and the ball wasn't even close. When he throws past ten yards, the ball sails high each and every time. The coaches seem to know this, as they don't even call plays where the receivers run routes past ten yards. Which leads me to ask why they even put him back in? Seems to me Mangini is begging for any answer he can and really has no idea what to do.
Quote: Seems to me Mangini is begging for any answer he can and really has no idea what to do.
That is the answer to ALL of the questions.
Amen to that! IMO Every coach but Ryan should get the ax.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Mangini stated at lease three seperate times now . . . "I'm sticking with this QB for the duration of the season." Once, when he picked Quinn, once when he switched to D.A., and once when he went back to Quinn? I don't know if he even believes himself anymore.
Quote: Seems to me Mangini is begging for any answer he can and really has no idea what to do.
There are no answers to his immediate questions.. the time for answers was in the offseason and he didn't have the right answers... he drafted a center and two wide receivers and two linebackers, none of whom were going to be big immediate impact players... and he picked up a bunch of castoffs from the Jets who are decent role players at best.... And he traded away the only two impact players we had on offense... Maybe his plan is the right plan for the long term, but if he expected his plan to make us better in the near term, then he is way dumber than I thought...
Quote: ...if he expected his plan to make us better in the near term, then he is way dumber than I thought...
I don't think he expected it would have made us better in the short term. But I'm sure he didn't expect us to be this bad either. I'm guessing he figured that he could let go of BE and K2 and upgrade our bums with better bums and at least match last season's 4 wins. After all, he is a genius.
With Detroit, Oakland, Kansas City, and even Jacksonville coming up he still could match four wins. Everyone of those games has both teams saying, "Hey guys, we can actually win this one!"
I don't think Mangini anticipated having to trade Braylon.
I also think he had thought replacing Kellen with a blocking te would help out our run game.
Once we traded Braylon this season was over. The one game we actually got decent play outta the QB position we had Braylon drawing coverages and Momass exploiting that. We had a hundred yard rusher too----I think that is what Mangini expected.
But once Braylon got into the fight----we shipped him. That added another MAJOR need to this team.
If Mangini had truly wanted to ship Braylon---he would have done it b4 the season---he had offers on the table.
He didn't want too---but as the season wore on it became obvious that Braylon needed to go, and his fight outside the club became the proverbial last straw.
I think Mangini wanted Braylon a part of the club, and thought he could bring him in. And at the start BE was saying all the right things----but it turned out that he was just saying them and going through the motions.
We shipped him and the chances for a competitive offense fell apart.
All we have now is a couple rookie receivers, an aging running back, and a journeyman te.
Quote: He has played in approx 6 games in the past three years as a QB...I bet he has not made - or even attempted - to tackle anyone since...maybe high school.
Keep reading, Willie. I explained it further either in this thread or the one in the last gameday forum.
I said the exact same thing, in that I don't blame a QB for making a split-second judgment mistake. But just because he didn't decide to ruin Suggs career, that doesn't keep it from being a cheap-shot.
Where I give Quinn a is by lying about it. He didn't intend on breaking Suggs' legs, but he did go low because that's what his instinct told him to do. What he didn't do was to go for the ball-carrier, and that bit of lying is something pathetic.
When Anderson did it, he admitted to it. When Sanchez did it, he admitted to it. When Quinn did it, he lied about it, and that sucks.
The Hit on Suggs was the ONLY thing I liked about this past game...Quinn isn't lying about anything..football is a physical game, if Suggs can't deal with the possibility of taking a shot he shouldn't be out there at all
I have seen Keith DeLong, Bill romanoski, Mike Singletary, and Clay Matthews lay hard hits on Qb and other players then what Quinn did..yet people are crying about Quinn.
the NFL has turned into a pansy bush league...too many rules
There should be ZERO rules concerning the QB..if he has the ball, he should be fair game bar none...that is how football "was meant to be played"..if you can't take a hit, you don't belong in the NFL...If Big Ben wants to scramble, LB should be allowed to make him pay by unloading on him Bill Romanoski Style...he may think twice before running around out there
The Hit Robert Griffith put on Hines Ward in the 2001 playoff game that was flagged was BS...in the 80's growing up as a kid that was a legal hit...that was football
Football has turned into a real joke anymore, don't get me wrong, I don't want guys to get hurt, BUT getting hurt is a risk of the game..its just how it is...
there are too many bogus rules concerning QB, tackling, etc that have RUINED the game and turned it into a pansy bush League
See Braylon Edwards crying over the "legal hit" Brian Russell put on Chad Johnson to see my point...a legal hit...yet he was fined for it...that's just garbage
Im happy Quinn did what he did, at least the kid wants to play hard nosed football.....My Browns are "SOFT" See Hines Ward Standing over Earl Little to get the picture...the only player the Browns have had that stood up to Hines was Robbert Griffith...those two had some battles, and Griff brought the wood...Ward was happy when Griffith left this division you can bet on it...
I can't believe we are even arguing over this...it was in "real football" a legal hit by Brady...deal with it...of course he will get fined, however in the rules of classic football it was a legal hit...not this pansy bush league we have today that they "call" football only in name...
Quote: I don't think Mangini anticipated having to trade Braylon.
I think with all the pre-draft talk of trading Braylon that he did indeed anticipate trading him. I think had Mangini gotten a deal he liked Braylon would have been gone back then. In the end though, he out smarted himself the degree that when letting him go became a priority he got nothing for him. That being the case, then in retrospect, he should have just kept him here so we'd have had at least one playmaker of some sort. Getting nothing for him after the season would have made no difference since we got nothing for him anyway.
Quote: I also think he had thought replacing Kellen with a blocking te would help out our run game.
K2 had to go. What he did to the team last season was unforgivable. Plus he wanted a large new contract and we weren't about to pay out to him like that. And I think you are right that Mangini was willing to give up the "luxury" of a spectacular pass-catching TE for one who could block in the running game. To bad that didn't work out.
Quote: I think with you it doesn't matter what he said after. You would have found fault in it.
You've made up your mind on the guy and nothing he says or does is going to change that.
Lying about the intent behind a cheap-shot to make himself look better didn't do anything to make me like him, that's for sure. Had he fessed up, I wouldn't be bashing him for it. But think what you want, because you're right, my mind IS made up. I just wouldn't be bashing him for it, but rather defending him by saying what I'd said already.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: I think with all the pre-draft talk of trading Braylon that he did indeed anticipate trading him.
The Edwards contingency plan: Keep him if we're doing well, dump him if we're not. You can bet the behind-the-scenes discussions were already taking place as the season started, so that when Mangini said it was time, Edwards was gone.
Regarding making a mistake in trading him, I disagree and think it was a win. We weren't going to get any solid, consistent play out him moving forward, so something now is better than nothing later. Having Edwards wouldn't have meant anything to this offense. He sure isn't meaning anything to a MUCH more talented offense over in NY.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: Regarding making a mistake in trading him, I disagree and think it was a win. We weren't going to get any solid, consistent play out him moving forward, so something now is better than nothing later. Having Edwards wouldn't have meant anything to this offense. He sure isn't meaning anything to a MUCH more talented offense over in NY.
I feel we still could've milked more than Trusnik, Stuckey, a 3 and a 5 out of it.
I have no qualms with the trade of BE...just what we got for him. You can't convince me that we couldn't have found a better deal.
Hey Toad, I was gonna tell timm that if he knew you as most on here do, then he would know that you really don't have "one side or the other" on our players. Your one of the few that don't have a agenda regardless of player, you always call a spade a spade, and I like that. Anyway I think you brought it up way back last winter that BQ might have trouble getting along with others because he seemed high strung? Is that right?
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180 You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow #GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
Quinn was not blocking anyone on the play he was "attempting" a tackle on the defender with the ball
He clearly dove in the vicinity of where the ball carrier was....Quinn was within a yard of the ball carrier and was attempting a tackle and Suggs got in the way
the video above, watch at the 1:50 mark...Quinn was very very near the ball carrier, he was attempting a tackle, when he dove, Suggs ran right in front of him
I don't believe Quinn intentionally meant to hurt Suggs, he was trying to tackle the ball carrier...Matt Hasselbeck was flagged for the same exact garbage call in the SB in 2005 against the Steelers when attempting to tackle a defender...its bogus is all im saying.,..bogus
Thanks kindly for the backing. To be fair, Tim actually doesn't put me in that category either and we get along well. It's natural to disagree with someone then drop the bias-card on'em if the ultimate opinion isn't expressed in a complimentary manner. But now that you've put Tim on the spot...... *L*
You have a great memory, man. I did hint that the players wouldn't automatically just jump when Quinn said jump, because he wasn't viewed in the same kinda light that someone like Payton Manning was coming out. In many ways, Weis trained him to be an NFL QB right from the get-go, which includes trying to dominate the huddle with his presence. That works, but the one caveat........and it's a HUGE one............is that you have to show you can produce or win first.
So he comes into the league thinking he'll earn the players respect by being a "take-charge" kinda guy, and it didn't work for several reasons:
1) He held out for more money, and while players don't get involved in another persons business, you can bet there was resentment amongst numerous players because of that. It put him behind the 8-ball and to a small extent sent the wrong message.
2) He does everything that Payton does. He looks like an NFL QB, he talks like one, he takes charge of the huddle like one, he makes changes at the line like one, and looks like one when he takes his drop. But none of that matters if you don't produce, and once Quinn throws the ball, he stops looking like a QB. Now he isn't as bad as we saw last week, but his accuracy issues were there in college, and they have been further exposed at this level. So while taking charge and ordering players around is how you control the offense and earn respect, if you do all that but can't produce, it creates a backlash, it has the opposite effect.
3) Lastly, I DID hint that Quinn wasn't the squeeky-clean Golden-boy that he was painted as being. Looking back, the skirmish with that buffoon Smith sorta confirmed that. That whole image thing works if you produce, but again, it has the opposite effect if you don't, and he hasn't.
You can bet that little stunt with wearing Edwards' shoes didn't go over well either.
So yeah, I'd hinted that Quinn wasn't the poster-boy that most thought he was. Now that he's going backwards, he's losing the players.
It's hard to imagine that as bad as Anderson has been, the players still supported him. We've seen hints of that over the past year and you can bet they still feel that way. Just the look of the players as Quinn sits stewing on the sideline tells you all you need to know: He isn't particularly well-liked by many on the team, and I can see why. If he produces, that all goes away and has the opposite effect.
Glad you remembered. You made my night.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: I think with you it doesn't matter what he said after. You would have found fault in it.
You've made up your mind on the guy and nothing he says or does is going to change that.
Lying about the intent behind a cheap-shot to make himself look better didn't do anything to make me like him, that's for sure. Had he fessed up, I wouldn't be bashing him for it. But think what you want, because you're right, my mind IS made up. I just wouldn't be bashing him for it, but rather defending him by saying what I'd said already.
Let me get this straight, you're wanting Quinn to come out and say, "yeah, I went for his legs, I wanted to put him on IR! A qb doesn't often get to take a good cheap shot and I wasn't about to pass up that chance, even if he is a friend of mine off the field!"
What moron is going to admit that even if there was intent?
Quote: Let me get this straight, you're wanting Quinn to come out and say, "yeah, I went for his legs, I wanted to put him on IR! A qb doesn't often get to take a good cheap shot and I wasn't about to pass up that chance, even if he is a friend of mine off the field!"
What moron is going to admit that even if there was intent?
No, that's not what I'm saying, so let me go back to it.
It's my opinion that Quinn made an instinctual decision to go low when he realized that Suggs was right in front of him. Very few QB's in the NFL would have the stones (or be dumb enough) to take on any player who gets paid to hit people for a living in that situation.
What I want him to admit is that his split-second decision to go low wasn't to attempt to get to the ball-carrier, but rather was essentially a self-preservation reaction............somewhat along the lines of the "flight or fight" theory of animal-behavior.............where his instincts told him to take the guy on low instead of taking him on up high, where he surely would have been blown up *L*
All I wanted him to do was admit what he really did and take the blame like a man. Anderson did. Sanchez did. Quinn didn't. That's my point.
Now what's making this a much tougher sell to me is the fact that when the play was over, he wasn't agonizing over his cheap-shot of his "workout buddy," but instead was pleading with the ref's when he saw the flag. So I'm not buying the remorse angle at that moment. Sure, he feels badly now. He better *L* But Quinn should have manned-up to it.
That's all I'm saying.
I don't blame younger QB's for that move. It's instinctual. I blame Quinn for not accepting and admitting what he did. He denied and excused, and that's lame in my book.
I suppose it's unfortunate because I've had very little patience left for Quinn before this last game, and when I've touched on what I perceived to be issues with Quinn's character, I lose even more patience when I see something which I view as an affirmation of said character flaws. To that end, Tim is actually right, as my mind is made up.
Of course it wasn't the hit on Suggs that sealed the deal for me, but rather the two bombs he threw 5-10 out of bounds on successive plays when he had time to throw the ball, as well as the two "deep" throws he sailed earlier in the game, one down the middle that was a good 10+ yards overthrown, and the out to Robiskie that knocked my Grammy Sapito cold in the 3rd row 'cause she was eating her nacho's and thought she was safe from Quinn's errant passes but got popped in the her lower plate with that fluttering Phil Niekro knuckler!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Watch the vid timothygman posted. The view is from behind the offense. Much better view. Quinn was 4 yards away from the runner when he dove and turned his back on suggs knees.
I did see how people are compailing about the Quinn block. I dont think it was intentional but agree with what toad said.
Did anybody see, are has it been said already, where Quinn was the guy who made the call at the end of the game that got Cribbs hurt? Im not sure that if he went against Manginis wishes, but I saw on Jim Rome today that the play was all Quinns call. I thought the Quinn bashers would have been all over that. Maybe they are on the thread about Cribbs in the other forum.
Quote: Regarding making a mistake in trading him, I disagree and think it was a win. We weren't going to get any solid, consistent play out him moving forward, so something now is better than nothing later. Having Edwards wouldn't have meant anything to this offense. He sure isn't meaning anything to a MUCH more talented offense over in NY.
It was a win when you consider he gave up here and keeping him around for the season wasn't doing anyone any good. And then, like you say, he'd be gone and we'd get nothing.
I'm a believer that we passed on a better deal that was on the table pre or during the draft. I don't know that because of all the mystery and secretiveness in those matters and we've heard so many things that none of it is known for sure. But had we traded him earlier I'm betting we'd have gotten a better deal. A deal that would have included, at least, a bona fide professional #2 WR, (which is leagues better than anything we're sporting out there now), and another player or two who could actually play even as quality depth and probably a 3rd or 4th rounder.
I think we didn't get that because someone who was handling the deal did as he always does and out-thunk himself thinking he had leverage and control he didn't have and screwed around until the deal was pulled.
As it worked out, and who knew, we got a 3rd pick and a way below average WR along with a good special teamer/LB who is quality depth. If our pick turns into a 2nd that makes the it much, much sweeter. But what's the chances that works out in our favor?
Maybe I'm wrong. But our negotiators held out long enough that the inevitable happened and we had to cut our losses and trade at an inopportune time not consistent with controlling the deal.
Quote: Amen to that! IMO Every coach but Ryan should get the ax.
What about Brian Cox him too???
The fact that fans are once again calling for the HC to be is earily familiar to what we just went thru.
Look when we get better players will be a better team. Changing the coach isn't going to make this crew of misfits better. At what point do you just stick it out.
History is not on our side. We have fired a mountain of coaches only to continue to loss. Maybe it's time to focus on the players and the talent..
If we can improve in the talent area the coaching issue will take care of itself. If your saying that yet another coach is the answer, history hasn't taught you a thing.
MHO
BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
No, that's not what I'm saying, so let me go back to it.
It's my opinion that Quinn made an instinctual decision to go low when he realized that Suggs was right in front of him. Very few QB's in the NFL would have the stones (or be dumb enough) to take on any player who gets paid to hit people for a living in that situation.
What I want him to admit is that his split-second decision to go low wasn't to attempt to get to the ball-carrier, but rather was essentially a self-preservation reaction............somewhat along the lines of the "flight or fight" theory of animal-behavior.............where his instincts told him to take the guy on low instead of taking him on up high, where he surely would have been blown up *L*
All I wanted him to do was admit what he really did and take the blame like a man. Anderson did. Sanchez did. Quinn didn't. That's my point.
Then I misunderstood, I thought you were calling for a full mea culpa, not a little toasted mini wheats version, with sugar.
Quote: Of course it wasn't the hit on Suggs that sealed the deal for me, but rather the two bombs he threw 5-10 out of bounds on successive plays when he had time to throw the ball, as well as the two "deep" throws he sailed earlier in the game, one down the middle that was a good 10+ yards overthrown, and the out to Robiskie that knocked my Grammy Sapito cold in the 3rd row 'cause she was eating her nacho's and thought she was safe from Quinn's errant passes but got popped in the her lower plate with that fluttering Phil Niekro knuckler!
I'm on board with this sentiment. There have been a number of facepalm moments watching the browns this year but none describes our ineptness at QB better than those passes.
Quote: Amen to that! IMO Every coach but Ryan should get the ax.
What about Brian Cox him too???
The fact that fans are once again calling for the HC to be is earily familiar to what we just went thru.
Look when we get better players will be a better team. Changing the coach isn't going to make this crew of misfits better. At what point do you just stick it out.
History is not on our side. We have fired a mountain of coaches only to continue to loss. Maybe it's time to focus on the players and the talent..
If we can improve in the talent area the coaching issue will take care of itself. If your saying that yet another coach is the answer, history hasn't taught you a thing.
MHO
BTTB
Your absolutely right about Cox. He is a fiery guy and he played the game for a long time. Guys on the team, I assume at least, respect a guy like that. Firing all of the coaches may have been a bit drastic on my part as I really like our defensive staff. His name is eluding me at the moment but the d-backs coach has done well also. I remember in training camp whenever E-Wright wasn't on the field for a play the d-backs coach had him in his back hip pointing out coverages and mistakes others had made. He wouldn't let Wright take a play off, even if he was just watching on the sideline.
To your point about sticking it out with a coach. Really, with the exception of Palmer, we haven't given our HC's that short of a leash. Butch and Romeo each got four years to prove they weren't the guy. I just feel like Mangini lacks respect and belief in his system. It's hard to win when the players don't buy what the coach is selling. Of course winning changes all of that. But like Toad is saying about Quinn, you can't come in and talk the talk and not back it up with results.
Quote: I've attempted to point this out numerous times. I'm glad (and not surprised) that you of all people get it. But to be fair, with this line, he isn't going to be afforded the time either, so it's a combination of things.
BUT, the telling factor is that when Anderson was in the game, they were willing to go downfield. When Quinn is in the game, they aren't. So you're right and the bottom line is the same: They don't trust him to go down the field, and say what we want about them as coaches, they see Quinn more than anyone else.
I keep seeing you post this Toad and I have to comment. If the coaches aren't calling plays down field because they don't think Quinn can make the throws then that's on them, Not Quinn. I've seen him throw the ball farther than 5 yards. We all have, Both in college and in the NFL. Not nearly as much as we would like but he has done it.
To be fair I have always thought we could do better than DA. I never liked him as a QB but he never looked as bad as he did this season. I also don't think BQ is as bad as he has been this season. The one thing that remains the same with both is the coaching staff.
If you don't call plays to go down field your putting your whole offense at a huge disadvantage and if your doing it because you don't think the QB can make the plays then you need to have a different guy playing QB. I think you tailor you game plan around your players strength but even Frye could throw the ball farther than 5 yards and Quinn has a better arm.
I guess my point is if you don't call a 10-15 yard route how can you possible know that your players can't make those plays. This isn't just Quinn I'm talking about either. You have young WR who need to learn how to make those plays.
It's great to call a short quick passing attack because I think that's what fits Quinn's game but at some point you have to call other plays that push the ball down the field and if the coaches aren't willing to do that no matter who the QB is then I can't hold the QB at fault for it.
Now if they are running those routes and he checks down to the short underneath stuff then we are having a different conversation. That isn't what happened on Monday.
is by lying about it. He didn't intend on breaking Suggs' legs, but he did go low because that's what his instinct told him to do. What he didn't do was to go for the ball-carrier, and that bit of lying is something pathetic. 
But now that you've put Tim on the spot...... *L* 
But Quinn should have manned-up to it. 
