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NO it is NOT useless
Pete, I see us disagreeing about this until the cows come home. 
A minute left,, OK, I'm with you,, but 5 seconds ands 16 points down.. you are beggin to have someone get injured and all for nothing.. you can't win..it's over..
Like I said, playing for 60 minutes I get.. but you have to start at the beginning.., you can't wait until you are 59 min and 55 seconds in before you pull out all the stops..
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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you can't win
Yes I already established that...but that doesn't mean you quit....
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Like I said, playing for 60 minutes I get
you mean 59:55  Playing for 60 minutes doesn't mean only while the game is still winnable....
Had he called the hand off like Mangini said he would do if revisited...he would have been booed off the field (far worse than they were...lol) and you know it. Do I agree with the play call...not really...do I agree with the intent....absolutely
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Hell, I don't even have a problem with the intent.. I understand.. you never know what can happen... I get that. Quote:
you mean 59:55
I gotta go back and see what I wrote,, I thought I said 59 Min and 55 seconds.. not sure you needed to correct me for being correct 
We aren't gonna agree on this Pete.. no way in hell.. it was bone headed IMO..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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ni said he would do if revisited...he would have been booed off the field (far worse than they were...lol) and you know it.
Impossible.
There was no one there to boo at that point.
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Quote:
you can't win
Yes I already established that...but that doesn't mean you quit....
We quit when we punted with 3:57 left and expected to get the ball back 2 more times and score. I don't care if it's 4th and 12 from your own 17... at that point, if you really intend to not quit, you go for it.
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Playing for 60 minutes doesn't mean only while the game is still winnable....
Sort of it does.. in the final couple minutes of an unwinnable game you don't do stupid crap that could get people hurt. I understand that on a handoff up the middle it's possible for somebody to get hurt but it's far more likely on some gadget play with people running all over the field...
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Had he called the hand off like Mangini said he would do if revisited...he would have been booed off the field (far worse than they were...lol)
By the 14 people that were still there? And those that booed him would be just as ignorant as the ones that booed when we took a knee on our own 7 yard line with 50 seconds to go in the half... stupid people, really stupid. I mean booing them because they are bad, that's understandable but booing because you run the ball with 5 seconds left and down 16... stupid.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
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"I plan on sticking with Eric,"
There is no other choice at this point, regardless of what is written and said by the media and fans.
I'm sure that Lerner would like to leave it up to whomever he hires as his football czar, which means, a decision on Mangini's status may not come until after the season is over.
My concern is Lerner will not be able to hire someone to take the czar position as fast as everyone expects. It could take longer than expected and it may not be the #1 choice on Lerner's list.
That is my fear as well. Let's face it, what is appealing about coming to Cleveland? It is colder than hell, the shelves are bear, and the coach has a history of starting over every 3 years or less. I'm really concerned that we won't be able to land a big name that has a track record. Lerner is going to have to offer up some serious coin I'm afraid.
Actually, I see that as an ideal reason a guy would want the job...nowhere to go but up. If you are in management of some sort, it is always better to go to a place that is running poorly rather than take over the place that runs like a sewing machine...less opportunity to make a real impact.
As for the cold...well...they aren't out on the sidelines. I am sure there is heat in Lerners box and he won't be out on the practice field for any length of time....
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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NO it is NOT useless...because you set the precedent that regardless of the score...no matter what the situation...we are going to continue to play. That is a quality you WANT in players...
People have to get past the Wins and Losses for this year....This year is not about Wins and loses...If we scored it is true we would not have won the game.....But trying to finish is important to this team regardless of how desparate. Lets not forget...if we do score on the last play be it a trick play or whatever.....we avoid a shutout and that has positives in it's own right.
IT WAS NOT USELESS. A bad call or the wrong call possibly.....but useless or boneheaded for it's intent.....absolutely not.
Pete314 nailed it.
and for the other response.... running out the clock or punting before the half while tied was smart, not giving up. jmho.
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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i think your point would be true but only if the expectation of the home crowd was proportional to how bare our cupboards are. the problem is our fans have such unrealistic expectations that there isn't a "no where to go but up" type of attitude. that is the problem that doesn't afford our coaching staffs any time to build a team. heck it's happening now with mangini. not that we expected playoffs but we're justifying the desire to fire mangini by saying "yea, we knew we'd be bad but we shouldn't be THIS bad." it's the same, circular problem.
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there is a disticnct possibility that when Mangini interviewed with Lerner, the conversation took a track similar to .....
"Randy, your team is an utter and complete disaster. There really are about 5-6 guys who should be starters, and maybe another dozen or so who even belong in the NFL. The national publications are not wrong when they proclaim this team as the least talented in the NFL. It will be a tremendous challenge, but it is one that I look forward to undertaking. I just want to forewarn you .... there are going to be some brutal bumps along the way, especially in year 1. We are going to begin implimenting our philosophies, and there will be resistance ..... and some players who just won't fit. Unfortunately, 2 of those players might be 2 of the best players from strictly a talent standpoint. 1 or both will probably have to go, again, not because of talent, but because of attitude. I know that Winslow is a problem. Edwards might be. Given my druthers, I think I'd rather try to work with Edwards. If it doesn't work, we can trade him. However, the cupboard is going to be extremely bare this year. We have limited draft picks because of the previous regime .... and are probably going to have to bring in a bunch of inexpensive, stop gap type players. This isn't going to be popular, but it will offer us payroll flexibility in years 2 and 3, and allow us to go after a premier free agent or 2 in addition to our drafts. So Randy .. how does that all sound to you? Are we on the same page?"
And if Lerner agreed with this type of evaluation ..... then there's no question that he'd have Mangini back. (and have his back as well)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Interesting. Someone else finally sees what I think might have happened in that interview.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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I want to play the guess what happened game too. Here's my take.
The interview took place in a bar and Randy said," hic shay pash me another drinky poo." Without spilling a drop the Genius complied and Randy said, "shay youse pash pretty good, ya know this is a pashing lee lee leegue. Yourrr hired.Hic"
I'm 100% sure that's exactly what happened.
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the problem is our fans have such unrealistic expectations that there isn't a "no where to go but up" type of attitude.
It's way deeper than that at this point.
Touchdowns shouldn't be an unrealistic expectation. Seriously.
I might do cartwheels if we lost 31-21 at this point, because it would mean we scored 21. 
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NRTU
I think you have to look at every aspect of what was here and what has been done up until now.
1st we had 2 head cases on offense that were great talents and poor team players. So Mangini got rid of them. Now before the tears begin to flow we won 4 games with these guys last season. That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement of why we should have kept them now is it?
Then Mangini brought in a boat load of Ex Jets that are on their last leg or just aren’t great football talent. Take your pick. But, when you look at it all of the ex Jets brought in are on the defense with the exception of Stuckey. But now 9 games in we have begun to see a much improved defense. Hard to argue with that, they do appear to be much improved. By no means are they a finished product but they are worlds better then anything I remember in our recent past. I also know that perhaps because our offense is so so bad teams just aren’t trying to attack this defense like they would if our offense were competent. But by all appearances this defense is beginning to play better.
On offense I think Mangini made a huge mistake not drafting another O Linemen. I said it then and I still say it now, our offense will never be productive if we can’t protect the QB, and right now we are awful at protecting the QB. Again playing the critic I would start Fraley at RG, he was huge in helping Mack, and some of our protection problems are because we have a good YOUNG center that is struggling with his protection calls. Having Fraley next to him helped and why we haven’t inserted Fraley back into the lineup to help Mack is beyond me.
I actually have no huge problems with the drafting of 2 WR’s, I knew for instance that it was going to take at least this season and perhaps next to get these young guys up to snuff. That’s pretty much how it goes with young WR’s. Year 3 is when I expect their production to make a huge leap. So yeah looking back and realizing that WR’s take about 3 years to develop Mangini grabbed these guys now in the hopes that when year 3 hits we have 2 young WR’s that are beginning to peek. Not a bad plan actually but it does require patients and understanding. Of course you also have to ignore a huge need for a RT and RG.
But all and all I think some things have been better then expected and still other areas of the team have been huge disappointments, but I do see a plan BEGINNING to take shape, and so while I hate losing and I hate all the top secret stuff Mangini does, I remain patient and hopeful. I think the next 7 games will be the real test as to if this team is beginning to head in the right direction or not. So far I like what I see on defense, and if they can continue to show improvement, and we can show some signs of life on offense I can stick it out with Mangini for another draft and season.
I think we all knew going into this season we were in for a ruff ruff ride. So to that end no big surprises for me. I don’t like it, but like I said improvement throughout the season will just have to do for now. We were just that bad to begin with, sad but oh so true. So I hate the words but patients may get us what we want. I don’t know but I just can’t see giving up on Mangini just yet like some of you appear to have done. The overhaul of this team is just beginning IMO and requires patients sadly…….
BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Your comments on the Defense are very true, and people do keep ragging on the new regime for bringing in so many ex jets. Individually they maybe arent an upgrade but it would seem collectively they are an improvement. Maybe just maybe this TEAM thing has something to it  so yes they Magini guys brought are defensee except Stuckey who we needed that postion and thats who they offered us in trade, so OK. Also Ratliff, who some see as a throw in, but I see as a Big Upgrade to Dorsey. So
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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BTTB,
Wow, spot on. It's hard to disagree with that logic.
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Quote:
there is a disticnct possibility that when Mangini interviewed with Lerner, the conversation took a track similar to .....
"Randy, your team is an utter and complete disaster. There really are about 5-6 guys who should be starters, and maybe another dozen or so who even belong in the NFL. The national publications are not wrong when they proclaim this team as the least talented in the NFL. It will be a tremendous challenge, but it is one that I look forward to undertaking. I just want to forewarn you .... there are going to be some brutal bumps along the way, especially in year 1. We are going to begin implimenting our philosophies, and there will be resistance ..... and some players who just won't fit. Unfortunately, 2 of those players might be 2 of the best players from strictly a talent standpoint. 1 or both will probably have to go, again, not because of talent, but because of attitude. I know that Winslow is a problem. Edwards might be. Given my druthers, I think I'd rather try to work with Edwards. If it doesn't work, we can trade him. However, the cupboard is going to be extremely bare this year. We have limited draft picks because of the previous regime .... and are probably going to have to bring in a bunch of inexpensive, stop gap type players. This isn't going to be popular, but it will offer us payroll flexibility in years 2 and 3, and allow us to go after a premier free agent or 2 in addition to our drafts. So Randy .. how does that all sound to you? Are we on the same page?"
And if Lerner agreed with this type of evaluation ..... then there's no question that he'd have Mangini back. (and have his back as well)
I think that's the type of conversation Pioli had with Lerner.
I think Mangini's went something like this:
"I can win with this team." End of discussion. Music to Lerner's ears. Just one season removed from 10-6 and Lerner is not thinking rebuild. He's thinking we had an off year and the thought of starting over is something he knows the fans will not tolerate. Nor does he think it's necessary.
In front of the camera, Mangini's a boob. I think he has wooed the crap out of Lerner behind the scenes ... constantly selling him a bill of goods ... saying what he thinks Lerner wants to hear. Playing him. While ruining the franchise at the same time.
There's rebuilding and there's downright BAD. Phil said it best ... the problems are way, way deep. We can't even score a touchdown by accident. We are on our way to making history here.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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...just clicking..
Some of you are misinterpreting Lerner's comments and actions, IMO.
Lerner is not saying Mangini is his coach for next season...he's just supporting the HC showing support rather than saying something stupid that might create even more controversy for the team, that has 7 more games to play.
I don't see Lerner's comments as anything more than a show of support for Mangini until the season is over. I know some of you would like Lerner to fire Mangini today, but that might just create more of mess than we already have.
I know, how could it be worse?...but it could be worse, IMO.
Like who would replace Mangini?
You say Ryan?...well Ryan has his hands full just getting the defense to play NFL caliber football.
Daboll is not qualified...
So, Lerner knows the best coaching he can provide the team, is not by firing Mangini.
Also, Mangini is hanging out in the wind at this point and he either pulls the best coaching comeback in NFL history or he has no leg to stand on if Lerner decides to fire Mangini after the season.
If any changes are made in the coaching staff, it would likely be that Daboll is fired and Carl Smith replaces him as OC.
But in all honesty, Lerner knows how frustrated the fans are but he also knows that making a coaching move based on "emotion" is not the best coarse of action.
Also, Lerner could be looking toward the future and allowing his football Czar to analyze the coaching staff once one is hired, and allow him to make the decision if Mangini or any of his staff are fired.
Those of you who may be thinking that firing Mangini during the season will turn this team around and save the season...it won't.
Most teams that make coaching changes during the season continue to play poorly after the coaching change.
After the season is the time to make coaching changes...so we fans must endure 7 more weeks of Mangini led Browns football.
Don't misread Lerner's comments showing support for Mangini, "during the season"..he has little choice but to support his HC, at this time.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I think Mangini's went something like this:
"I can win with this team." End of discussion
Pioli told RL that were few players on the team that could actually start for other teams..he'd have to gut it..and Manpoleon said he could go with the team with a few changes..thats what really swung it for him.
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J/C....Charlie Casserly anybody? Discuss..........
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Browns: Lerner won't comment on Holmgren rumors Published: Thursday, November 19, 2009 By Jeff Schudel JSchudel@News-Herald.comIf Browns owner Randy Lerner met with Mike Holmgren on Tuesday, he is not willing to discuss it. Jim Brown, speaking at a luncheon benefitting Our Lady of the Wayside, told the audience: "At this moment, right now Randy Lerner is meeting with one of the great football minds in this country," Brown said in remarks prior to and during the luncheon. "And if things work out, that person will come in to run the football side of the Browns." Brown did not identify who Lerner met with, but implied it was Holmgren, the former coach of the Packers and Seahawks. In 17 years coaching, he had only three losing seasons. Lerner is not looking for a coach. He is looking for an experienced football executive to run the football side of the Browns. The executive would hire a general manager. The two would decide the fate of Coach Eric Mangini. "I have no comment on any matter related to the search to strengthen the Browns' management," Lerner wrote in an e-mail response. Holmgren was the Seahawks' coach and general manager from 1999-2002. He was stripped of his GM duties after the 2002 season because wearing both hats did not work well, but he continued coaching through 2008. He took the Seahawks to the Super Bowl following the 2005 season and lost to the Steelers. He was 1-1 in Super Bowls with Green Bay. web page
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I'd prefer me..I trust me..  
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Quote:
Pioli told RL that were few players on the team that could actually start for other teams..he'd have to gut it..and Manpoleon said he could go with the team with a few changes..thats what really swung it for him.
I seem to remember that that was the thought back then and that Randy went with the person that would cause the least change... other than w & L record that is...
I am not sure it was ever confirmed....
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Pioli told RL that were few players on the team that could actually start for other teams..he'd have to gut it..and Manpoleon said he could go with the team with a few changes..thats what really swung it for him.
I seem to remember that that was the thought back then and that Randy went with the person that would cause the least change... other than w & L record that is...
I am not sure it was ever confirmed....
So then RL could say Mangini lied in his interview. Fire with cause baby!
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Big Willie remembers those comments..there were several articles that had those quotes in there..but I ain't about to look for them.
I think Manpolen had some ideas..and maybe he thought he would keep certain people..but once he got in if those guys didn't meet his military scheme they were out..
The part that showed me he was over his head was how he tried to compensate for the throw outs with (once more) bandaids.
Now I see he truely doesn't understand offense..you don't toss the two better recieving threats with a TE who can't catch and a WR who really isn't a target and then compound things by making your kick returner into a starting wideout..there's no logic in those moves..
Plus he did a poor job on the Oline when he let Shaffer walk by bringing in a worse player...St.Turnstile has to be one of the worse OT's in the game..he's not even the drive blocker they claimed he would be ..
Do I need to touch the RB spot????
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/19/09 10:36 AM.
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I'd prefer me..I trust me..
Reminds me of that Gilbert O'Sullivan song... Alone again, naturally!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I remember reading comments much like that, too. I keep looking around wondering what happened to change that statement so drastically. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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The only way Mangini isn't a lame duck is if we go 4-3 down the stretch and we can hire Charlie Weis as OC, and somehow the Czar sees the coordinators combined with Mangini as a good fit.
That's it, and it's not likely.
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Quote:
I remember reading comments much like that, too. I keep looking around wondering what happened to change that statement so drastically.
Which comment?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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That Mangini said he could go with the team with a few changes.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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LOL OK,, you were responding to a post a couple up from my last one... I get it now,, 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Lerner stands behind Mangini
If we all remember correctly,he said the same thing about Romeo and we all know how that turned out.Hopefully Manweenie only has the rest of this year to screw up this team.Here's hoping he doesn't last out the year coaching the Cleveland Jets............I mean Browns. 
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I just wish Mangini would take this as a hint and stand behind some of his players.. I'm sorry, I know they look like hell every sunday on the field (especially the offense) but he needs to stand behind them. I can't even imagine what the mood around that team has to be... it's one thing to be considered not a good football team, it's another thing to be considered an awful football team... but when people stop commenting on you being bad and just resort to making jokes about you... and it's not just the nutjob bloggers any more, EVERYBODY in the media considers the Browns irrelevant... that has to be hard for anybody with pride and I still believe the players and staff have some pride... it's just a really bad situation.
yebat' Putin
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It's not like Lerner said Mangini will definitely be the coach next year...it sounds more to me like he's sticking with him right now...for this year.
I'm sure Lerner probably thought he had the right guy when he hired him...but after seeing what this football team looks like...you can't defend him.
The defense isn't THAT bad...but geezus...this is the worst offense I've ever seen in my entire life...on any team.
The fact that Mangini approved that offense against Baltimore after preparing for two weeks makes me automatically question if he should continue being the head coach after this year.
Fun times ahead!
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I think that Mangini didn't think that he would have to deal Braylon.
With Braylon and DA we actually had a decent offense the time that they were on the field together the whole game.
Once Braylon left our offense had no focus, it became completely impotent.
No weapons, no pseudo-weapons, no one to draw coverage or scare an opposing defense.
The season ended when we dealt BE.
We NEED to get some offensive weapons in the draft to be competitive next year, and I think Mangini will look to aquire someone to replace BE.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
I think Lerner is standing behind Mangini like those wives of disgraced politicians stand behind their husbands at press conferences. They have to be there. But they don't want to be there. And they sure as hell aren't happy about what's going on. Lerner is going to stay with Mangini for the rest of the year. He's going to fire him. For whatever reason he's just not trashing him. In conclusion, Eric Mangini = Larry Craig.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
The season ended when we dealt BE.
We NEED to get some offensive weapons in the draft to be competitive next year, and I think Mangini will look to aquire someone to replace BE.
This "someone" won't be Stuckey, and it won't be Trusnik...and chances are slim that it will be the mid 3rd or 5th round pick....good luck....just another wasted move
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
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I think people are making too much of trading K2 and Edwards. Too much.
The two biggest indictments on Mangini are: the product on the field and the draft. I don't give a crap if he traded away the entire team before the season and started from scratch with 53 new professional football players. A team of professionals should never, ever look this bad. We can't even score a touchdown by accident. That is so pathetically sad. And it has nothing to do with the record. It's how we lose.
The draft looks like it is going to go down as one of the worst of all time. I know we have to give it time, but do we have any signs at all that these guys are going to come to life? What happened to the most pro-ready WR to come out this year? I've never seen a receiver look so pitiful. Mangini chose character over talent when we badly need talent.
Mangini and his coaching staff (Ryan excluded) are bums. They need to go. Now, preferably.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Oct 2006
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It could be someone we trade for. We could use our first pick on a wide-out.
We could get Stallworth back.
Maybe we go into next year with Momass.
The addition of Stuckey gives us a younger guy to man the slot instead of old man Furrey.
Trusnick has proved to be a versatile player who can fill roles on ST, OLB, ILB.
Again, this trade was a last resort. We didn't want to move him, but ended up having to move him.
We took what we could get.
I think Mangini needs to stay another year or two---at least. I would even be OK with Daboll coming back.
I think offensive coordinator is a position where your offense is proven over time---certainly not over the course of one season.
In my mind. Daboll doesn't have the pieces. Can't fault him.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
I think people are making too much of trading K2 and Edwards. Too much.
trading them,, No, I got no problem with that.. Trading them before you have replacements of qualty.. Yeah, that was dummer than a box of rocks.. that I do blame him for.
Hate him or love him, KW was a hell of a football player.. There is just no question about it. that's a big hole to fill and we didn't come close.
Edwards is a strange case,, all the talent in the world,, and the attention span of a gnat.
I don't think you can discount the effects of those trades and there is one other thing that mangini missed.. The right side of the line.. That was a mistake..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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All Pro
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All Pro
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I'm siding with Tyler on this one. Folks are hating on Mangini just to hate right now. I know Django we are bad. I know.
Last years draft was not that bad. I would have liked some other players. V looks like a head scratcher to me as well as everyone. Miava looked good last game imo. MoMass will develop to a decent #2 I think. Mack is playing better, and should continue to improve. Plus all the Jet role players thrown in. I like the draft really. Robiski........well recievers usually take three years to figure it out. He needs to get faster and work on his routes and get stronger too.
The right side of the line is killing us. Just killing us. Plus our backers have to block better. (lewis included........I saw him wiff on multiple blocks and on others go at legs and miss last week.........he's big enough to take them on at chest level.) Until those things get fixed we will continue to suck.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Lerner stands behind Mangini -
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