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What do people expect is going to happen when you have to tear down and rebuild? It is going to take time to get your type of players and get them used to a new system. He traded away talent for draft picks which means this year we can expect to be low on talent while we wait for the draft picks to come in.
I responded to this the other day..we have crappy players..had a crappy draft..EM won't be near those picks if he somehow stays..they need to be jettisoned away so how is that tearing down when it's already down?
The only new system I see is on offense.I'm not the group that thinks we're going to a 43 ..if so then yes it is a total teardown..but if not the defense still needs upgrades at crucial areas.
Replacing scrubs with talented players isn't a teardown..don't know why people don't get that.
On offense the areas that need upgrading are ,RG/RT/WR/RB/QB.
Now explain how getting upgrades there is tearing down the team?
We have very little talent at those spots.
As far as scheme goes it'll be the first time the team had a actual identity on offense.
I hope Holmgren decides to stay the course and help Mangini become successful.
EM has done such a great job, why hire Holmgren? What's Mike's job if we are to continue down the course EM has set?
To repeat what I said yesterday,is it reasonable to bring in players(who don't fit what you want to do,thus prolonging the bleeding) to help make a failed coach a success(in your mind) or do U actually bring in players to fit your system and bring a guy who will run the type of offense you want to install?
Part of fixing a franchise is to know when changes are needed, and when continuity and stability are a good thing. You've heard people complain of a lack of continuity on the Browns part. Fine, I'm all for it... WHEN they actually get the right people in place.
A PFO can't make changes for the sake of change. He has to judiciously figure what to throw out and what to retain. I won't shed a tear if Mangini is bounced, but that's for Holmgren to decide, and it's not as easy as simply jerking the knee, firing everybody, and redecorating Berea.
And it won't be that.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/30/09 10:31 AM.
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Quote:
had a crappy draft
You have to be kidding 
Mack - starter, looks great
Robo- starting to contribute, most WR's take a year to have an impact
MoMass - looks great for a rookie WR
Veikune - MIA, looks like a miss. Still, only his rookie season
Maiava - Starting. Playing lights out for a 4th round pick. Please show me a long list of superstars that have outperformed him and were picked later.
Carey - injured, waived, picked up by the Jags. Hasn't taken a snap. 6th round miss? So what.
Francios - I really wish he would get some more playing time as I liked how he hit in the preseason. Still, any 6th rounder that makes the team is a nice pick.
J Davis - Late 6th round pick that would have taken the starting job from Lewis if not for injury. RB with TONS of upside - potential game changer.
This was a GREAT draft for us. Calling it "crappy" is absurd. Maybe you've been listening to the talking heads too much....
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No..U're joking if you think that was a stellar draft.
Mack..good pick even though I said thats not the way I would have gone.
Robo..doesn't see the field..too many questions as to why..but fact is ,he is a possession reciever and not the # 1WR the offense needed..wrong pick.
Mass..a # 2 WR..but I don't see anything great..there are other rookie WR's who look better,and are better.
Viekune..bad pick..said it before..U want to convert someone to ILB,EM had several chances to get a LB that could have been plugged in Day 1 and started..projects like Viekune are for teams with existing talent and need to roll the dice on a developmental player.
Miava..another undersized LB...ST's playing because of injuries..a backup..
Carey..???
Francies,don't get why he is on the bench..others playing ahead of him are crappy..maybe he is too..maybe not..I do know when I saw him in he was very physical..something none of our DB's are.
Davis..could be a good back..injury..
U call that a great draft?
One of the many underwhelming reaches of drafting that I see the Browns do every year..
Every freaking year they go into the draft and have solid impact players sitting at their lap and they drop the ball..
Only Phil came close to doing it but even he screwed up many times..
I swear ,very few understand what happened..
Mangini drafted complementary players instead of impact players...I know a lot about drafts,I don't get opinions from anyone else unless I don't know about a given player....I let my eyes and my mind tell me whats out there..
For what this team needed and what they aquired was two different things.
Here's a clue..the Browns have 11 picks this year..do you understand why they are bringing a new GM besides the obvious reasons?
They don't want any coach touching those picks..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/30/09 12:49 PM.
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Legend
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Mangini is gone - period.
Holmgren first will fire Mangini. He will then hire a GM. Together they will agree on a new HC. My guess is Morningweg. Of course they will have to wait till season end with some HC candidates.
However, getting a GM in place will help to start the evaluation of the team, prepare for free agency, and the then the draft.
You have to keep in mind the new GM position. Holmgren will oversee the GM and HC but the GM will work directly with the HC.
President - GM - Head Coach all need to be on the same page. They will put together the rest of the staff. All will be Holmgren people. Mangini is not in this picture. Nothing personal just business.
Parcell's in Miami is the mold. When you are in charge you want people who you know you can work with.
Holmgren signed a five year deal. He does not have the time to find out "if" he can work with Mangini.
Mangini will be let go next week and the GM will be announced soon after.
Fair or unfair does not enter the picture. It's politics. It's business. It's life.
Holmgren has been in the NFL business for a long time. He knows alot of people. He is going to clean house and bring in his people. Did Obama keep Bush's people?
Marty was fired after winning 13 games in the regular season. Life is often unfair.
According to Grossi, "Gruden told him directly that he will not coach in the NFL for at least 2 years.
With Holmgren's responsibilities I would seriously doubt that he would consider returning to the sidelines next year. Once Holmgren and the new GM decide on a new head coach they of course will want the guy to succeed. So, I just don't envision any scenario where Mangini survives and Holmgren coaches the Browns in the next five years.
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"EM has done such a great job, why hire Holmgren? What's Mike's job if we are to continue down the course EM has set?"
Of course I know you are being sarcastic...so with the knowledge that I know what you know that I know.
I don't think anyone is saying what EM did was PERFECT or GREAT. Well at least I'm not. What I'm saying is the course and the aspect of the HC contributions are taking fruition where the common eye can see and understand the philosophies of EM.
And it just might be that the philosophies are good.
What I and some others are suggesting is have a Football Person take on the role of Randy Lerner as CEO head guy and PRESIDENT in the sense of the term in an organization - delegating and keeping sure all parties stay focused to their tasks...and not dwelve into the sanctum of others duty for the goals that we are looking to head to.
The premise here is not to have a KOKINIS quiet and shooting Rubber Bands at the cute female employees. We are talking about bringing somebody in that can actually MAKE MANGINI BETTER.
Look he wins out, and has Randy asking Holmgren to please give him a long hard look...at best with all that Mangini probably ups his shot to 40% - so that odds are he won't stay. This isn't a matter of being right in a prediction. Its about being right for what is best for the Browns. And the suggestion at least by me is to have his contributions in evaluations for players. But have the final say by a GM. And as explained by Holmgren...the goal is to have a CONCENSUS!!! with HC n GM and if not...Holmgren will be the tied breaker!
Its not about Mangini being perfect and if so -why hire Holmgren at all!
What I and others are saying is Mangini did a lot of good here. He did exactly what he promised he would do. His program has been on board just one season...and the response of the TEAM to the program at the end of this season is very convincing on why we should give strong considerations to CONTINUING THE PATH. Nobody here is saying lay everything in the hands of Mangini as the Czar. Nobody is saying give him full power.
What I am saying is continue with the Good and add the Guidance and LEADERSHIP of Holmgren into the mix - to make this HAPPEN!!! Make it BETTER!
And as far as drafts go...it was not bad at all. You believe Django...go right ahead.
Can we back track and pretend we can do it better...sure take any draft and pretend.
Anytime you can get 3-5 contributors from a draft that is good real good. And you know better...how can you judge till you get to a 3 year level to see how they developed. Even Elam might turn out good as this is his first year starting a season at one position. All I know he looked pretty good this last game! So who knows and this is somebody I've been stating sucking so far!
Francies and Davis I believe were all part of the tradedown. But when all is said and done...if Mack is considered a Pro-Bowler caliber Center...he by himself was worth the trade down. Heck...look at our past. JoeT the only STUD at his position from all the great slots of how many drafts? So he's a Center...I could care less when all is said and done, if he turns out to be a stud? Which he's been looking pretty studly lately for a rookie...just as studly as Mangold was looking at this point of his career, if not more. the draft would be a success to me. Cause from all the years...11 first round picks...only JoeT. I would be tickled pink!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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What I'm saying is the course and the aspect of the HC contributions are taking fruition where the common eye can see and understand the philosophies of EM.
And it just might be that the philosophies are good.
MH might actually think his philosophies(like discipline/acountablity) are good but also think he didn't do good enough in other areas..
EM did not get the most out of what he had this season. That's regardless of how big a mess he had to make in order to rebuild. He had certain assets at his disposal, and he never put them together in a cohesive fashion. IMO, getting the most out of the players you have, finding the right combination of guys to fit the systems you're running, is a big part of being a good head coach ...
Here's something else..I tend to think that Lerner was taken aback by Mangini's wholesale housecleaning and later resented the fact that he ,once again had to step in and deal with a fire when Kokinis left (and the inevitable cries of the meddling owner), and will now have to deal with legal questions concerning the nature of Koko's departure.
Think that mess wasn't discussed with MH?
MH doesn't want to risk or compromise one bit, when it comes to his vision and philosophies. He is going to allow Mangini ONE sit down with him..and he isn't going to take a long time to determine what he wants to do with EM..
He may have already done that..
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The premise here is not to have a KOKINIS quiet and shooting Rubber Bands at the cute female employees. We are talking about bringing somebody in that can actually MAKE MANGINI BETTER.
Look he wins out, and has Randy asking Holmgren to please give him a long hard look...at best with all that Mangini probably ups his shot to 40% - so that odds are he won't stay. This isn't a matter of being right in a prediction. Its about being right for what is best for the Browns.
Why would MH force Mangini on his new GM? Wouldn't the prudent thing be to hire both who have a passed history of working well together? Or.... at least allow the GM to be part of the process in picking a HC?
Mangini might very well prove to be a good HC. There are lots of 'good' HC's in the NFL.
It's not like MH needs to think if he lets one 'potential' good coach go he can't find his own and one that is more proven in his head to what he wants to accomplish.
Listening to MH about how important chemistry is among the FO is big for him..it's important... MH will put 'his' team together with people he is comfortable and familiar with.
I'm not sure he's all in to making EM better than making the team better.
And as far as drafts go...it was not bad at all. You believe Django...go right ahead.
Really, after I debated him on the picks?
I said I needed time to see them and I've had time..U know I don't wait to offer thoughts on the draft..and I said earlier while D was banging them as busts ,they were compliment picks not impact picks./.now Mack is performing better..so all the time D was popping him I didn't..I saw him adjusting to being in the pros..
How is that believing him when I already stated my POV?
how can you judge till you get to a 3 year level to see how they developed.
I see this same disclaimer every year when it's the Browns and they have drafted weak,and the named pick is criticized....give 'em three years..don't say anything till after that period..why not?
I know U want to do it and be fair but c'on if it's a bad pick it shows well before the third year..
Anytime you can get 3-5 contributors from a draft that is good real good.
The only contributers I see are Mack and Mass, and to a degree Miava,but thats due to injury.
It isn't like he was pushing DQ for a position..plus he's been rotated in and out..
I maintained my view that EM could have done a far better job ,it's not hindsight ..it's pretty much what I find myself saying every year..
The Browns drafts are weak as a whole and it's played a huge factor why this team has little talent.
When I look around and see other rookies playing and making a impact do I need to see 3 years of them to know they're already good?
How many drafts of the Browns did it take 3 years to know most of the picks were bad?
How many have actually progressed to be good?
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The only drafted player that will be above average will be Mack...and I never said he won't get there...just that he wasn't playing even average the 1st H this season, which is a fact (after all, he didn't even beat out Fraley in TC)....I always said he'll be a good interior OL...
that said, I still maintain it was bad value from a draft perspective...many don't get this point saying: a good player is a good player...yeah, but most good interior OL are mid to late round picks...that means 2 things: they have lesser overall value to a team AND can be found later in drafts...in this regard Mack was an overdraft...especially when you look at guys like Harvin, Maclin and Nicks
the other picks won't ever be league average...it's funny how Maiava gets mentioned as a PLUS for this draft...what has he done? allow the game winning TD against DET? Look, I like him too...he's an overachiever but he'll never be a decent starter in this league, especially not in a 3-4 (maybe a longshot AVG guy in a 43)....
Massa gets a lot of props around here...I think it's simply because of the fact that we don't have a whole lots of other things to cheer about, but guy is not overly talented and lacks in all 3 major phases of being a NFL WR: routes, hands and speed...and he's inconsistent (but that I excuse being a rook)..but his ceiling is league average at best (again: by that I mean he should be among the best 28-36 WR in this league...take a long hard look around the league and tell me with a straight face he should be among them)...there are better rookie WRs drafted after him...Collie, Wallace, Knox
When you have 4 Top 50 picks....1 good player and 2 potential busts is not even decent, especially when your not able to compensate in later rounds
I said it right after the draft was over: EM selcted quantity over quality...that's what Attack now labels "complementary players"
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
Robo..doesn't see the field..too many questions as to why..but fact is ,he is a possession reciever and not the # 1WR the offense needed..wrong pick.
He was never supposed to be a #1 receiver. He is supposed to be a.............wait for it...................wait for it.................................a possession receiver. 
As to why he hasn't seen the field, you can't draw any conclusions because you don't have the facts. Besides, someone in one of these threads showed that 2nd round receivers often don't do jack-crap their 1st year.
Frankly, the only guy that does look like a miss is Veik. Mack has turned into a GREAT pick. Mass is doing GREAT for being a 2nd round guy thrust into the starters role.
I would have expected people to have learned the lesson that judging a draft in the 1st year is risky. A bunch of folks.............a TON..............blasted Mack as an absolute wasted pick after a month.  Now he's playing damned-well.
Mangini can be FAIRLY judged on who he selected for FO positions, for who he cut and who he replaced them with in free agency, who he selected as his coaches, and how he botched the QB situation in camp and at the start of the year. BUT you can't judge his draft. To do so would be silly because very few rookies come into the league as impact players, ESPECIALLY 2nd rounders.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I meant the first pick in the second round and U need a impact reciever and U draft a possession player?
Thats for later in the draft ..U needed a guy who could at least step in when Edwards was traded and we all knew it was going to happen .so I have no problem saying it..WR was a stronger need than OC...lost JJ,traded K2..Stallworthless suspended ..Edwards on the block..
I happen to know U liked the Robo pick..tell me how you came to that conclusion it was a good pick?
How could you judge that if you aren't(by a handful of posters) supposed to judge a pick for 3 years??
I didn't like it from the start, I wanted no part of him dispite he was supposed to be the most ready for the pro game..
BTW impact recievers do not always come from the first round.
BUT you can't judge his draft. To do so would be silly because very few rookies come into the league as impact players, ESPECIALLY 2nd rounders
Where U get this stuff from..can't judge his draft..what?
Sure his draft can be judged just like any other can be ..
Clark/Botch/Phil's drafts were judged prior to 3years ..and whats happened to most of those picks?
Gone...a lot of them not even in pro ball..
What makes his exempt?
Few rookies come in as impact players.?.
U aren't trying to tell me only first round picks are expected to impact their team are U?
I know far better than that and I'm not deferring to that outlook.
Every year there are a good measure of rookies who impact their team.
I've seen enough draft and enough ball not to worry about the risk evaluating a draft in it's first year..
I know all about them gaining experience and learning their positions and whats asked of them..yada yada...as I said that seems to be the disclaimer when the Browns have a less than stellar draft..which is about every year.
So U can sit and wait 2 more years on these new picks to do something..
If I like something about the draft I'm going to say it,if I don't, I'm not going to keep it to myself and think well maybe I better wait till the year after next before I start ragging on this player..
Here's the good part..If I'm wrong about a draft and/or a player,I'll admit it..when I am.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/30/09 03:29 PM.
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Quote:
The only drafted player that will be above average will be Mack...and I never said he won't get there...just that he wasn't playing even average the 1st H this season, which is a fact (after all, he didn't even beat out Fraley in TC)....I always said he'll be a good interior OL...
That brown towel hitting the ground is the BS flag. That's quite the backpedal you got there Django...
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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All Pro
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I support Mangini as of right now. I have been back and forth. However, I still can't get over passing on Rey Maualuga. That kills me. Every time I see that guy in a Bengal uniform, I sob like a baby and immediately drink a fifth of whiskey. It's getting very tough on the liver... Thanks a lot Bin Laden.
"The Browns are a club contenders probably don't want to face right now. Their physicality cannot be questioned."
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Let me make a note about Rey. He's reaping the rewards of playing behind a great defensive line. When you spend most of the game unblocked, you get to run around and make plays.
Furthermore, LB is an instinctual position, especially when you're forte is run-stopping. Because of that, it's FAR easier for Rey to succeed as a rookie than it is for a WR, which next to QB is the toughest position to master coming right out of college.
Rey wouldn't look anything like he does perceptually if he were playing in our 3-4.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
I support Mangini as of right now. I have been back and forth. However, I still can't get over passing on Rey Maualuga. That kills me. Every time I see that guy in a Bengal uniform, I sob like a baby and immediately drink a fifth of whiskey. It's getting very tough on the liver... Thanks a lot Bin Laden.
You are aware that Maiava is very much giving us the same production that Maualuga is giving the Bengals right?
Maualuga is all style, average substance. People really need to get over passing on a largely average player.
you had a good run Hank.
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Toad, Attack
I see you two disagree on the draft. However, I will say it is way to early to judge Mangini's draft....Teddy Bruschi red-shirted his first two years in the league...was Bruschi a bust because red shirted?
Veikune hasn't even played yet, he can not be classified as a bust until he has played, and the transition from DE to ILB can not be done in a single year. Furthermore, we had Bowens, Jackson, Barton, and Trusnik ALL expereinced vets in front of him..Barton and Jackson are Hurt, but Bowen, Trusnik and Maiva getting playing time takes up the slack.
Maiva was a LB in college, and he will be a good player...he is playing every bit as good as Dqwell Jackson did his rookie year...Maiva will be a nice reliable player for us.
Veikune just needs time to learn, the guy will help this team.
As for Robiskie...he is getting more and more involved. Robiskie I think was a good pick, and he will suprise some folks...there was no real "Andre Johnson" recivers to draft at that spot...
Poession Receiver was a "need" with the lose of Joe Jurevicious..Robiskie fills a glaring need.
Mack is a good player...you can NEVER go wrong taking OL or DL with your 1st rder...very rarely does that not work out. Jeff Faine didn't work out here, but played quite well in New Orleans.
I don't believe any college player is a bust...no of them...its just luck if they go to a team with the right system in place to maximize what they do good....the Browns haven't even had a real system yet, let alone draft players that actually fit one..its no wonder we bust on so many picks.
I think
Mack
Robo
Momass
Maiva
Veikune
will ALL be a part of this franchises future...there is talent there..Veikune could easily put on a few pounds and go back to Defensive End Next year if we go 4-3 and contribute..he is learning ILB for Mangini...if we go 4-3 Veikune fits...he was a DE in college and was decent...
Maiva is a classic Tampa 2 4-3 OLB..he fits
Robo is a good third down option...has good hands
momass is a good number 2
we couldn't fill every hole, However, Mangini did fill a few of them with his draft....Mack, Robo, Momass, Maiva, and Veikune will contribute to this team
many fans are just way to impatient
I think many on here would Question Holmgren if he drafted a QB...many of them would sit on here and proclaim they know "more" about football then Holmgren does
why don't we just pipe down here a little bit and give these guys a real chance to play before we go label guys busts..it is unfair to classify them bust already...
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Not to mention how much more disciplined he would have to be in this 3-4 compared to the Bengals D....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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EM did not get the most out of what he had this season. That's regardless of how big a mess he had to make in order to rebuild. He had certain assets at his disposal, and he never put them together in a cohesive fashion. IMO, getting the most out of the players you have, finding the right combination of guys to fit the systems you're running, is a big part of being a good head coach ...
Attack,..I'm not sure you're being serious anymore.Mangini got more out of this team than I thought humanly possible. I'd love to hear how he could've done better,....I really would.
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Here's something else..I tend to think that Lerner was taken aback by Mangini's wholesale housecleaning and later resented the fact that he ,once again had to step in and deal with a fire when Kokinis left (and the inevitable cries of the meddling owner), and will now have to deal with legal questions concerning the nature of Koko's departure.
Think that mess wasn't discussed with MH?
Who gave Mangini the final say on Kokonis(if that's truly how it went down)?What coach would not want the opportunity to be part of (if not all) of the selection process of his own GM? If the company I work for allowed me to hire my own boss and it didn't work out,.....who's fault is that? I think Lerner took a long look in the mirror and realized he needs someone to make the decisions he originally thought he could handle.
If MH had to sit there and listen to Lerner bash the hire of Kokonis,like it was somebody elses fault,...I'm sure he would think Randy was certifiably nuts.
Likewise, MH isn't going to bash the Kokonis hire to his prospective boss,....you know,...the guy that allowed all this stuff to happen.
I do think that RL and MH talked about the kokonis mess,..but in no way you'd like others to think.
Quote:
Why would MH force Mangini on his new GM? Wouldn't the prudent thing be to hire both who have a passed history of working well together? Or.... at least allow the GM to be part of the process in picking a HC?
Mangini might very well prove to be a good HC. There are lots of 'good' HC's in the NFL.
Finally something we can agree on  This is really the ONLY valid reason to fire Mangini,...but,....you best look at what he has accomplished with this team so far (I know you think it's nothing) and better have someone that IS better for this team RIGHT NOW. It better be a name like Cowher,Dungy,Shanahan or Schottenheimer to justify the move,...and even that will not guarantee an upgrade. I HAVE to believe that MH and the new GM will not be biased by the media.
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I've wanted Mangini gone yesterday. But hell, I can't stand this starting over again and again and again ... if we can get a personnel guy with a proven track record and final say ... and a new OC ... would that be what's best for the Browns?
The only reason we keep starting over again and again is because the wrong choice was made in the first place.
This time, with Holmgren, I believe the correct choice has finally been made. I'm more than happy to go along with whatever decision he makes as far as anyone on the coaching staff goes. (Big of me, I know....  )
However, it doesn't change my mind about Mangini. At least at this point in time. If I'm the GM he's gone. Beating 3 schlubs and a .500 (at the time) Steeler team, while nice, doesn't make my heart flutter like some on here. And if I were to bet hard earned money on it I'd bet Holmgren comes to the same conclusion eventually.
We'll see. Should be an interesting time to be a Browns fan.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Attack,..I'm not sure you're being serious anymore.Mangini got more out of this team than I thought humanly possible. I'd love to hear how he could've done better,....I really would.
Hehe..are you being serious?
If they had beaten the playoff teams on the schedule I would agree with that.They looked horrible for about 9 -10 weeks.
I've posted what he could have done better on many occasions ..and I don't need to get on all the EX-Jets we're carrying..
Who gave Mangini the final say on Kokonis(if that's truly how it went down)?What coach would not want the opportunity to be part of (if not all) of the selection process of his own GM? If the company I work for allowed me to hire my own boss and it didn't work out,.....who's fault is that? I think Lerner took a long look in the mirror and realized he needs someone to make the decisions he originally thought he could handle.
Only thing that needs to be said is that process was wrong and backward...the GM should have been hired ,then he brings in the coach.
Lerner fell for Gini..he should have exercised patience..no one was going to swoop down on EM..IMO...
This is really the ONLY valid reason to fire Mangini,...but,....you best look at what he has accomplished with this team so far (I know you think it's nothing)
I'm not impressed if thats what U mean..tell me what you thought the overall job weeks 1-9 ..
EM tore it down..and he made the decisions on the QB fiasco..he made the all the moves regarding the roster..and if MH fies him ,it'll be because he didn't need to look long and hard to see what was screwed up.
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So I went back and checked. Django never actually said that Mack would NEVER improve. Lots of bashing, but he didn't actually come out and say it.
This is me picking up the BS flag and walking back to the sidelines... my bad Django.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Keep it handy... you'll probably need to throw it again.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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So I went back and checked. Django never actually said that Mack would NEVER improve. Lots of bashing, but he didn't actually come out and say it.
This is me picking up the BS flag and walking back to the sidelines... my bad Django.
Accepted....you can ask DeepThreat on my assessment of Mack (I remember him getting what I was saying about Mack...some distant post ago)...I always said he'll be a good interior OL and that he has low bust factor...I envisioned him more at RG though....so if he makes it at C, you might have some ammo against me
I bashed him when he played like crap and I gave him props for his improvement in the last weeks gameday threads when he played better...believe it or not: I'm fair and want the Browns to be good 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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You keep acting as if the record this year meant anything. But it didn't. Let me say this for you slowly as insulting you seems to be the only way to get you to listen.
The...win/loss...record...was...NOT...the...most...important...goal/accomplishment...for...this...team...this...year.
The most important thing to accomplish THIS YEAR was the installation of Mangini's system and getting the players to buy in and play for each other. It was more about HOW they played than the games end result. After that the wins will take care of themselves. Now you can argue whether he has accomplished that feat or not...but you and others keep attacking things as if the win/loss record was the end all be all for this year.
Mangini isn't trying to slap on some bandaid....or give us a bail out......he is trying to FIX THE PROBLEM FOR GOOD...he isn't trying to create a bubble success built on air and when it bursts we are left with what we had in the Butch Davis debacle...He is looking to build something that can last. And to do that he has to tear it down and place his foundation....which is his system.....
Now you can agree that the system is the foundation or not....but he is not unprecedented in this approach...Belicheck, Parcells, Walsh, and especially our own Paul Brown used the same approach....
You can argue that whether or not he is being successful in this approach.....But untill you understand what he is trying to do and accomplish...WHICH YOU DO NOT....as you and others continually argue as if this years record was the most important thing....untill you understand what he is trying to do...how can you discuss intelligently about it????
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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"Why would MH force Mangini on his new GM? Wouldn't the prudent thing be to hire both who have a passed history of working well together? Or.... at least allow the GM to be part of the process in picking a HC?"
1. I believe Holmgren is picking a GM for the PRO n College Personnel leadership...not in picking a HC.
2. I believe Holmgren is going to pick the HC whether its Mangini or another and won't have anything to do with the requirements suggested by the GM...MH will make the decision on his own - he might even make it before he picks a GM. If not why would he fire EM before hiring the GM and let him fire EM???
This is the Holmgren show and there won't be an Oil Vinegar struggle for power - cause both the GM and HC will be working for HOLMGREN  and guess what...they will both know WHO HAS THE POWER!
As mentioned they will concentrate their efforts to their JOB DESCRIPTION and not dwelve into the others domain...Holmgren is the key to all of this.
Just remember there is only one really precedent of the Czar position...btw did Parcells consult with his GM about the hire of HC? Did it matter? If one of them don't get along with the other or tries a power struggle? Its not imaginable cause there is NO POWER STRUGGLE...they all know who has the ULTIMATE POWER.
"I know U want to do it and be fair but c'on if it's a bad pick it shows well before the third year.."
Geesh you're starting to scare me Attack is this you posting???
Especially in the case of WR...there have been exceptions but you can't tell squat from the first year.
Here a relevant example...Vincent Jackson of the Chargers - not only was he spoken as a bust his rookie season but a year or so later as well! Now he is actually AMAZING and is closing in on that elite list! I think really the only busts at WR that could carry weight is if they show a lack of character/attitude and not willing to Practice and Improve...yeah those are the ones we can start to write off. David Terrell, Koren Robinson, maybe even to an extent BE although I thought he worked hard...but apparently he didn't do the classroom stuff well!
Cris Carter was another for different reasons. But MoMas I've been telling all has very good hands, always did - unlike QM who never did. He does have to get over the bad habit of body catching...which gets done almost all the time. What is the NO NO BAD WR stimulus on Body catchers is that a lot of them do so cause their hands are INDEED BAD! Well not MoMas he's got excellent hands. Robo will be fine as our possession WR...and Stuckey in the slot. Did it happen in their rookie season...no but to state...WOAH is us we just got MACK... boo hooo that just is not right at all. DV??? the knows about him I know I don't but I ain't going to say he's going to be good - I haven't seen him at all. Who knows? but he ain't going to define the draft by himself. The 2 WRs don't look like busts - I can't define them until they finish their transition but they don't look bad at all! And that fell under the bracket of NEED...URGENT NEED!
But you know what...EM will have some input as will the coaching staff...And in the end it will be the HC filtering his Staffs opinions and the GM filtering his scouts opinions and they will sit down and agree on Personnel...and as was mentioned if they can't - HOLMGREN steps in and decides cause he is the HEAD MAN IN CHARGE no ifs, ands or buts about it!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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You keep acting as if the record this year meant anything. But it didn't U keep acting like U understand what I mean,which U clearly don't, so quit trying to figure it out.. The most important thing to accomplish THIS YEAR was the installation of Mangini's system and getting the players to buy in and play for each other. It was more about HOW they played than the games end result. After that the wins will take care of themselves. Now you can argue whether he has accomplished that feat or not...but you and others keep attacking things as if the win/loss record was the end all be all for this year.
If U really believe that than U wouldn't have posted that because they didn't play like a NFL team for 9 weeks..that was the most putrid display I have seen a while..How they played was sickening..or did you look at it and say:'Wow, they're buying into EM's system!"
Sounds like U did..see I look at those 10 games before they won anything...not just the last four..but the enitire season..try it ,U might actually learn something.
Lets put this where it belongs(not your backside either)..if EM was doing such a bang up job there would be no need for a "CREDIBLE LEADER" to come in and oversee things..now would there? You can argue that whether or not he is being successful in this approach.....But untill you understand what he is trying to do and accomplish...WHICH YOU DO NOT....as you and others continually argue as if this years record was the most important thing....untill you understand what he is trying to do...how can you discuss intelligently about it???? I don't have to be insulting to U..your reasoning does it for me..no one is or has been arguing about record in a vacum....in fact some are saying those wins don't really,really ,really mean that much..but I guess thats over your self inflated ego isn't it?? 
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/31/09 02:12 PM.
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Geesh you're starting to scare me Attack is this you posting???
Yes..how is it any different from any other year when I state this player or that is a scrub and we shouldn't have drafted him?
Now you're acting as if this is the first time I've been critical of a Browns draft..
If a player sucks it's going to show early on in most cases..and usually what they do in college sheds a ton of light of how their skills translate into the pros..
For all the bad picks by the Browns ,it's showed well before 3 years..plus the fact that every new person playing GM jettisons the previous regimes top picks..and how many of those have gone on to be stellar players?
Maybe U 've been debating DJ too much,he was the one putting the Mack pick down..I only said it wasn't the direction I would have went..which I have a right to say..not gonna agree with everything this team does..
Nor is it like I've been way off in my assessments of the Browns draft..pretty much I've been on target ...this year is no different.
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"Now you're acting as if this is the first time I've been critical of a Browns draft."
Nah just don't remember you being this WRONG
btw Happy New Year
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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This Wrooo-ng?
Tell me what Browns draft I was wrong about?
There have many many names in the Browns drafts that I have openly criticized was not the right choice and it surely came down to them being shipped out and most are not even on any teams right now.
I always list why,and usually it's for that exact reason..
U say I'm wrong ,show me names I have been wrong about..ones that have excelled when I said it was a bad pick .I know several I was wrong about,but if you're gonna say I'm wrong show me.
I also know there are quite a few players U and some others have been/are very high on and I'm not that impressed with.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/31/09 02:02 PM.
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If U really believe that than U wouldn't have posted that because they didn't play like a NFL team for 9 weeks..that was the most putrid display I have seen a while..How they played was sickening..or did you look at it and say:'Wow, they're buying into EM's system!"
What is your freaking point??????? My God....did you expect "the process" or whatever you want to call it to happen at the snap of the fingers??? I AM looking at the entire season...NOT JUST THE BAD STUFF like you...Unfortunately all I ever get to talk about is the defense to all the crap people like you continue to post.
So why don't YOU take your own advice and actually look at the WHOLE season....the Good and the Bad...and actually try to find the reasons for both with FACTS not supposition. Try taking a LARGER view of this team beyond THIS YEAR as far as what the team is trying to accomplish....The goal was not to win as many games as humanly possible this year...if it was...Mack would not have started....we wouldn't have traded certain people...but THIS YEAR DID NOT MATTER...it is not about THIS YEAR....it is about next year, the year after, and the years after that. So all the crying we have seen over Braylon, Winslow, The NY Jets add ons and others(not saying you are doing so...just saying in a general sense) is not only shortsighted...it is ignorant.
Why are you crying over the first 9 games???? Especially if you accept the fact that this years record did not matter. Did you really expect the entire team to be totally committed and bought in to the system from game 1? That there would not be any malcontents like Lewis, Edwards, and growing pains from letting the rookies play??? Or even that there wouldn't be issues with the offense because Mangini wasn't able to get the staff he wanted to run it???? (And if you look at those first 9 games it was the offense that was truly embarassing not "as much" the D or ST)
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Quote:
Try taking a LARGER view of this team beyond THIS YEAR as far as what the team is trying to accomplish.
That is exactly right, we should be looking at the the larger view. But each and everyone of us has a different view of that. And as far as what this team has been trying to accomplish will be alot different between Mangini or Brady Quinn or even the water boy. Whose idea of the team are you talking about?
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The goal was not to win as many games as humanly possible this year
So are you saying the goal was to loose as many games as humanly possible because in my mind those are the only 2 choices.
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...but THIS YEAR DID NOT MATTER...it is not about THIS YEAR
Maybe to you, but in my mind every year matters because none of us (yes that includes Mangini) know if we will have a chance at another year! That's how life is.
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....it is about next year, the year after, and the years after that.
And by that line of thought you lean toward this whole thing being turned around by Mangini in the next couple of years, am I correct? What leads you to lean that way when this is what has been promised by others in the past? My Question to you is, have you bought into the past management expectations or do you see Mangini bringing something that the others have not?
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Did you really expect the entire team to be totally committed and bought in to the system from game 1?
My answer to that is YES. Players who have come from nothing to make big money for what many forget is a very short time should be grasping every moment as a special moment and take full advantage of it! They too soon will be injured, retired or dead! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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So are you saying the goal was to loose as many games as humanly possible because in my mind those are the only 2 choices.
So the only 2 choices were to win ..... or somehow untighten games? I don't get it.
Sometimes you take a step back to move forward. This wa such a case .... even though the step back was minimal given the talent inherited by Mangini.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Before this streak I was staunchly against keeping him around. Actually I even laughed at the idea that he'd be the first HC to be fired from two different teams in consecutive seasons.
Now, we have to weigh our competition...reeling Steelers with their best player out, Raiders being the standard for dysfunctional as an org and the Cheifs rebuilding. Not really the greatest benchmark.
But I've gone from completely against him staying to right on the fence. The Jags, although not with great chances, are playing for their lives. We beat them and before they know their playoff fate and I will be more impressed.
But another part of me wants the highest pick as possible.
In Mike I trust...inside the organization he will know if this guy has it or not. And it's good to finally have a character of that stature running this organization.
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So the only 2 choices were to win ..... or somehow untighten games? I don't get it.
Excuse me YTown , but is there any other goal for a team other than winning? Am I amiss in thinking that a team goes in thinking anything other than Super Bowl?
That is the what I believe every team goes into camp with and if the management even lets the team think other wise then the season is lost before they even play the first game.
Have you ever heard the term worst to first? And yes it does happen from time to time.
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Sometimes you take a step back to move forward. This was such a case .... even though the step back was minimal given the talent inherited by Mangini.
Thank you for saying (sometimes) because that is not always the the step that needs to happen. It is a judgement call and Mangini made that call.
In your and Mangini's eyes we needed to take a step back to move forward but do you or anyone else really know that line of thinking was really the right way to go?
We have had examples of others doing the same type of thing with this franchise and giving it more and more time and ending up with pretty much the same results.
I'm not saying Mangini is wrong but I sure as heck won't say he is right!
If he stays I will deal with it. If the man in charge says he has to go I will be more than happy. My opinion honestly is the guy is a jerk and it will be hard to win anyone over when you are a jerk! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Loose has nothing to do with winning or losing. Loose means "not tight". Quote:
Have you ever heard the term worst to first? And yes it does happen from time to time.
Sure does .... usually on a team with capable talent .... some above average talent .... and a few missing pieces. It does not happen from a team in the shambles we experienced last year. Teams lacking in talent have to add talent before they win consistently. While a team lacking in talent might win a game or 2 they aren't supposed to .... they do not win consistently against good teams.
This team was horrible last year. We cut a bunch of guys who are out of the league. We had no WRs outside of the extremely inconsistent Edwards.
What were our building blocks? I'm serious. We had an abysmal offense, and our defense was one of the worst in the league. What did we have to build on?
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Thank you for saying (sometimes) because that is not always the the step that needs to happen. It is a judgement call and Mangini made that call.
In your and Mangini's eyes we needed to take a step back to move forward but do you or anyone else really know that line of thinking was really the right way to go?
I ask again ..... what would you have built upon? What was this team's strength? What did they do well in 2008 that should have carried over to 2009? Who were our stars? How did theat star power translate as far as wins and losses?
Teams that go from worst to first have something to build upon. It might be a solid run defense .... ir the ability to run the ball ...... or a young franchise QB ...... maybe they can pass well and need a complementary WR ....... it could be any number of things.
This team did nothing well last year. Nothing. Do you "build on" nothing ... or do you tear it down and start over? I know what I'd do. What would you do?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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NRTU
I don’t think that anything Mangini did from overturning the roster to the draft that said win now, or win this season.
Now I don’t think any coach would EVER come out and say we are re-building for the future and were probably not going to win this season. If some of you wanted Mangini to say that, then I think you’re out of touch with what goes on in the NFL.
That said I realize that many fans are upset with the draft, and how it was run and who was chosen. Most fans were shaking their heads when Mangini traded down then traded down then traded down and then took a center. Then to compound things he took 2 WR’s. I admit I was shaking my head too. Not about the center (loved the pick) but about the 2 WR grab.
One of the main reasons though even at the time I thought Mangini took 2 WR’s it was because he was planning for the day BE would no longer be a part of the Browns. I think we all knew and understood that much at least. And I think we all understood that we had nothing in the way of a #2 receiver going into the season. I also know that many fans lament the fact that we no longer (in their view) have a viable #1 receiver. But let’s be honest here we couldn’t draft a WR round #1 and a center. And we needed a center far more then a #1 WR, at least in this draft anyway.
But stand back and look at everything, the purge of the roster, the purge of salaries and freeing up of cap space, the drafting of players that require development time and it soon becomes crystal clear that it wasn’t about this season; it was always about positioning the team for the future. Centers take time to develop (about 1 season), and WR’s take about 2-3 years to breakout. That hardly equates to a win now attitude.
Then you follow everything up with coaching up sub par talent and molding it into at least a serviceable team. I have to say that for all the posters that have always blamed the coach for not getting everything you could possibly hope for from their players some of you are missing great coaching while it happens right in front of your eyes.
But this season was never about winning it was about team building, and development. On both accounts Mangini has been nothing short or brilliant. This is without question the finest display of coaching I have ever witnessed, period. No way that anyone can look at the talent on this team and not go ugly. Yet we have seen this TEAM really be a team. They play hard and work hard, and now that hard work is beginning to show on the field. How anyone with an ounce of reason in their soul can look at this team and not realize that as of this moment Mangini is indeed getting blood from a stone is beyond me.
Talent wise this team is starving to death, but TEAM wise they are building the attitude of a champion. That is what this season was about, discipline, team building, attitude, study habit’s, understanding your roll and the roll of your teammates. No detail in that PROCESS was missed or swept under the rug.
I can point out every detail of how Mangini went about the process. Like for instance he shook up the locker room by mixing and matching players not according to position but according to personality and opposing positions. He put O Linemen with D linemen, and CB’s next to WR’s. He brought in scrub players that understood what he was doing to TRY to accelerate the learning curve while stressing fundamentals, study habit’s and basic understanding of the scheme and each individual players roll in that scheme. He taught this team how to be a team, and how to be good team players. And he didn’t miss a trick.
Now if you where expecting that every single move he made to be a home run then you are disappointed, and likely always will be. If you didn’t get the guy you wanted and want to second guess the coach for what he did or didn’t do then you’ll always find reasons not to be happy.
But if you understand where we started from, and where we are now, and where were likely to be a year from now and 2 years from now then I think you’re pleased with the coaching job that was done this season. It was a season of difficult decisions, and a season of stepping back for the sake of building for the future.
If you understand that this team has been put together with Duct tape and prayers and that with 11 picks in the draft and plenty of cap space we have been placed in a position to draft and sign players now as a result of that step back then you’re pleased.
If this is all about bottom line results, and you don’t want to apply reason and thought to anything short of that then you’re not pleased, and I understand. Me I think this season played out pretty good in the end.
What Mangini did accomplish this season..
Built a team atmosphere.
Got players to buy into what he was doing.
Got players to work hard, even while they were losing.
Got players to understand their roll and the roll of their teammates on both sides of the ball.
Set the table for the draft, and FA in the upcoming off season.
Instilled discipline, and accountability.
Got players to play smart and above their talent level.
Looked under every rock, CFL, Practice Squads, Waiver Wire, Back Alley, in an attempt to improve the talent of the team.
Won at the end…
All indications point to this team getting better and better and better….
Without question the results on the field are a disappointment but the team building part was done, the foundation for future success is in place, and that was what this season all boiled down too. Like it or not this was the best job I have ever seen any coach do here in Cleveland. The table is now set for a great run.. And Mangini made that happen…
He needs to stay and Holmgren won’t miss on anything that has been done. Count on seeing Mangini back on the field next season… The only thing that stops that from happening is if Holmgren walks away from talking too Mangini convinced they cannot co-exist… I don’t see that as happening….So those among us that were hoping for Mangini to go down the road prepare to be disappointed….
JMHObeservation
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But if you understand where we started from, and where we are now, and where were likely to be a year from now and 2 years from now then I think you’re pleased with the coaching job that was done this season. It was a season of difficult decisions, and a season of stepping back for the sake of building for the future.
Here's the La-La Land argument again...those who can't see the "process" have no "faith" (that's what Mangini actually said in one of his PR-hot seat interviews...basically "have faith in me and my plan") and therefor are heathen....best stfu argument there is out there....like fundamentalist religious people they don't get that they are the most stubborn guys in the room but accuse others as being suffocating....priceless
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If you understand that this team has been put together with Duct tape and prayers and that with 11 picks in the draft and plenty of cap space we have been placed in a position to draft and sign players now as a result of that step back then you’re pleased.
Not even PS players want to come here and play for Mangini...what makes you think FAs come here for a fair price? We have to spent Raiders like money to get em here...and if that's what it takes, they'll probably just play for the money and won't go all out (see Raiders FAs)....Mangini made it happen: we are the Raiders pt.2
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Like it or not this was the best job I have ever seen any coach do here in Cleveland. The table is now set for a great run.. And Mangini made that happen…
Thanks for my new sig...hilarious
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He needs to stay and Holmgren won’t miss on anything that has been done. Count on seeing Mangini back on the field next season… The only thing that stops that from happening is if Holmgren walks away from talking too Mangini convinced they cannot co-exist… I don’t see that as happening….So those among us that were hoping for Mangini to go down the road prepare to be disappointed…
I can't wait for your take in the "Mangini fired" thread that will be started sometime next week....if he was retained, MH would have already announced it or hinted that way...all he did though was "being nice" and hinting firing him
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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So you are saying mangini didn't do any of the things i claim he did?? Quote:
What Mangini did accomplish this season..
Built a team atmosphere.
Got players to buy into what he was doing.
Got players to work hard, even while they were losing.
Got players to understand their roll and the roll of their teammates on both sides of the ball.
Set the table for the draft, and FA in the upcoming off season.
Instilled discipline, and accountability.
Got players to play smart and above their talent level.
Looked under every rock, CFL, Practice Squads, Waiver Wire, Back Alley, in an attempt to improve the talent of the team.
Won at the end…
I want to believe that most people believe in fair play and understanding and reason, show you have just one of those traits and you got me...
I won't hold my breath waiting for the lights to come on at your house.... 
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,165
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,165 |
Quote:
if he was retained, MH would have already announced it or hinted that way
I completely disagree (to the point of saying that you are completely incorrect) for a number of reasons.
1. Holmgren is not on the job until tomorrow.
2. You do not talk about or hint at that sort of thing until you are actually in that position.
3. You certainly do NOT announce it when you haven't even started your job yet.
Holmgren is a professional, in every sense of that word. Making policy or hinting at it - publicly no less - in regard to a current employee while he hasn't even started the job yet would be near the epitome of unprofessional.... which is why we have heard from Mike what we have heard: He will review the complete situation before making a decision. Read into whatever you wish, but whatever you take from it is only in your imagination - the words themselves are face-value.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,857 |
Hard to disagree with that.. Holmgren is a class act.. He'll handle it fairly and honestly and in a face to face meeting. ONCE he starts his new job...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Posts: 6,197
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Thought this article would fit in this thread...Myself..I`m not come to a point where i can honestly say I want him to stay or go.... I do see a team that with the season they had...have not quit on their coach... Holmgren has also stated he does`nt beleive a HC should be fired in their first season..I`m going to wait untill MH makes his decisions...and hope that this will be the start ... of the climb up out of the hole... Quote:
A victory over the Jaguars on Sunday afternoon would give the Browns their first four-game winning streak at the end of the regular season since 1986.
The 1986 team had a five-game winning streak, including two in overtime, at the end of the regular season and extended it to six games with a 23-20 double overtime victory over the Jets in the AFC Playoffs. The streak in 1986 set up another run to the AFC Championship Game during the 1987 season.
"It would be great, and I mean this sincerely," Browns coach Eric Mangini said. "These guys have worked and there hasn't been any time during the year where I thought, ‘Okay, they're not trying to improve. They're not giving their all. They're not doing the things that we're asking them to do.'
"It's not easy to do when you're losing games," he added. "It's much easier to give a half-hearted effort, so that if you get beat the next game, you're not as disappointed. It just doesn't mean as much; it doesn't hurt as much. I've never felt that from this group. If anything, I felt like a hardened resolve as things were tough where they dug in and were determined to get out of it. So, to get another one would be great."
Since the first day of training camp, Mangini has paid close attention to the players and how they interact with one another. Through the difficult stretch of games at the beginning of the season, the Browns have formed a bond amongst themselves.
When a particular unit makes a play, it is not just that side of the ball celebrating. After several of Joshua Cribbs' kickoff returns, quarterback Derek Anderson was the first player over to extend his congratulations.
"Guys really take pleasure in other people's success," said Mangini. "It's not a function of, ‘I got a pick, let me go celebrate to the crowd. Let me make sure everybody on TV knows who I am.' It's not that. It's not the personal, look at me type stuff.
"It's more guys running down and jumping on top of each other and celebrating with each other, offensively, defensively," he added. "Special teams come off and everybody's into it. The quarterbacks are into special teams tackles as much as anybody. When you get in that situation, good things happen. It's not always easy to get there."
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/article.php?id=10365
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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From his media conference call: Holmgren was also general manager of the Seahawks for the first four years of his tenure there. When asked about what he learned from that experience and how it may apply it to his new job in Cleveland, he said, “If I had it to do over again, I would make the more important changes sooner" how much more "hinting" do you need?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mangini and Next Year
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