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I think the only way Mangini survives is if Holmgren has his minds-eye on 2011.
Toad...that's not news to the board as many have said long ago, that if Holmgren wanted to coach in 2011, Mangini would get another year.
1. Who is Holmgren going to get to coach for just one year?
2. Why pay someone to coach for a year while paying Mangini not to coach?
If Holmgren sends Mangini out the door and makes a legit HC hire, it will signal that Holmgren does not plan to come back as a HC.
As of now, I would say Mangini has a good chance of getting one more year as Holmgren prepares for a return to coaching in 2011.
I look for an overhaul on the offensive side of the ball with a new OC and some (maybe many) changes in the offensive coaching staff.
I have no idea what Holmgren will do with the coaching staff on the defensive side of the ball?????
Last edited by mac; 01/03/10 05:38 PM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I think without a doubt Jax was a tougher opp. than OAK and KC maybe not PITT. so not sure about what your saying there
I think there is doubt that jax was a tougher opponent than Oak... KC stayed in the game until the very end, and Pittsburgh wasn't the Pittsburgh we saw earlier in the year.. Ben was coming off a concussion and I just don't think he was all the way back.
the Weakest part of our schedule for the entire year was the last 4 games.. With the exception of Buffalo of course.
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would you rather win your last 4 games to wind up 5-11 ...... or lose your last 4 (ala Jacksonville) to finish at 7-9?
I think I like the looks of 5-11 a whole lot more in that comparison.
That's an emotional and perceptual decision, which is VERY risky.
It's better to evaluate the ENTIRE body of work, in which case Mangini's case looks less hopeful.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Ahhhh...I was only thinking his own return. Yes, that scenario makes sense. You think Mangini might not pick up on that though? I know he's not as smart as us but... 
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If anything does Mangini in, it will be personnel decisions.
The perfect example is Harrison. I mean, how do you let a guy like that rot on the bench behind a veteran who has been underachieving the past 2 years in a row?
Why did it take so long for the offense to involve Cribbs more?
Why did he continue to trot DA out there when he was clearly handicapping the team.
Those are the questions MH will want answered and I'm not sure if Mangini has a good excuse, if he has one at all.
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If Holmgren sends Mangini out the door and makes a legit HC hire, it will signal that Holmgren does not plan to come back as a HC.
"LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! IT GIVES ME GREAT PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE TO YOU............MAC, AS":
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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not really tryin to pick on you, but those are the same questions that RAC fumbled around also, so maybe there is more to see than what we see on gameday. I will say that just like an Oline needs time to gel then so does a coaching staff, so from my opinion he needs another year because I see some progress.
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Quote:
would you rather win your last 4 games to wind up 5-11 ...... or lose your last 4 (ala Jacksonville) to finish at 7-9?
I think I like the looks of 5-11 a whole lot more in that comparison.
That's an emotional and perceptual decision, which is VERY risky.
It's better to evaluate the ENTIRE body of work, in which case Mangini's case looks less hopeful.
Well then ..... let's look at the body of work ....
Was there progress as the year went on? I would say so.
Did we develop an offensive identity? Yeah ..... run the ball hard and often .......
Did we start to play defense as schemes sunk in? I think so.
This team was LOUSY last year. It started the year LOUSY minus its best player of a year ago.
Then we traded our 2nd best player of a year ago.
Then we started to see the coaching sink in ...... and players doing a much better job in the systems the coaches run. We saw some players aquired off waivers come in an contribute ... which speaks to the overall talent level left behind by the previous regime.
We saw backups and bums become a team and reel off 4 straight wins. We saqw backups and bums turn the offense into a solid running team. We saw backups and bums step up and win games when most teams ..... including last year's model ........ collapse when injuries hit.
I think that the body of work speaks quite highly of Mangini and his system. This is especially true when no one would have given this team a shot at winning 4 in a row against Poland ...... Struthers .... Lowellville ...... and Chardon High School.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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 couldn't have said it better myself, the only thing I would add is that for the most part they have won despite the QB.
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We ran hard because we couldn't pass at all. Not sure that's an identitiy more so than a neccesity. But I agree with the D side.
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not really tryin to pick on you, but those are the same questions that RAC fumbled around also, so maybe there is more to see than what we see on gameday. I will say that just like an Oline needs time to gel then so does a coaching staff, so from my opinion he needs another year because I see some progress.
I don't know, in my eyes maybe that just means both of those guys are terrible at evaluating players?
Saying Mangini is making the same mistakes RAC did is only going to lead him out the door. It surely doesn't serve as an excuse as to why he should be retained.
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I will agree sort of, but if it is working why stop??
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I think considering all the injuries and the fact that our QB play has been horrid that Eric Mangini did a very good job in coaching these guys during this 4 game winning streak. With a good QB we may have won 4-5 more games this season. Granted I believe that Mangini drop the ball on the QB competition and he should have utilized Harrison more earlier in the season. Then again in all fairness the QB competition makes much more sense after seeing them both play bad all season.
In the end we have to look at it this way: We got rid of some talented players (Edwards and Winslow) and lost more to injury this season but still finished with a better record than last year. That in itself is surprising. Considering that I would say Mangini deserves at least one more year with these guys. He said after the first few games that it was a process and it requires patience. He proved true on that and did it by winning the last 4 games of the season. What more can you ask for considering the team he took over?
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I will agree sort of, but if it is working why stop??
I agree and it's about time. All (early) season it seemed as if anytime something worked we would abandon it. It seems as if we finally stuck to it and it worked for us.
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A nice win today to be sure. But I doubt it changed anyone's mind on here or in Berea. If I were GM I'd bid Mangini a fond farewell and hire my own coach. If I'm gonna tie my future to someone it's gonna be someone I picked myself.
I suspect we'll know by Thursday, at the latest, whether Mangenius gets another year. The only way that timetable might change would be if Holmgren has decided to hire a GM first and then let him make the coaching staff decisions.
But the quote that Django mentioned before about making changes sooner rather than later leads me to believe that Holmgren would opt for a new coach if there is any doubt in his mind at all about Mangini.
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This whole "Qb controvercy(sp)" is bunk both of them suck, and the team has won despite them. I don't really see how it is debateble considering the rushing stats when the opp. are knowing it is coming but, it is JMHO
Last edited by jb52; 01/03/10 06:02 PM.
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Well then ..... let's look at the body of work ....
Was there progress as the year went on? I would say so.
I would agree, but only to a certain extent. When one considers that this team was generationally bad, that is it's own indictment, but we can also say there truly was nowhere to go but up. Furthermore, why was the team so bad to begin with? Did Mangini give our QB's and offense enough reps in camp? How about in pre-season?
That's what I mean by looking at the entire body of work.
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Did we develop an offensive identity? Yeah ..... run the ball hard and often .......
That's not an identity. That was a matter of survival in bad weather and with pathetic QB play. We didn't run the ball to be "smash-mouth" we did it because of wind, cold, and two QB's that don't look like they belong out there.
Of course if you're just looking at the last four games...............
You also talked about trading our 2 best players, but did Mangini do an adequate job of replacing them with even marginal, reliable talent? I can see bringing in draft picks at those positions, but Robert Royal? Mike Furrey? Those moves were failures.
Lastly, and the one that gets the least amount of discussion (shockingly enough) is that it was his front office people who were fired.
The entire body of work needs to be examined. Remember, as I've said before, Mangini does alot of things I like. But he also has to answer for a bunch of mistakes. A BUNCH of mistakes.
If Mangini was just the coach, and not responsible for EVERYTHING as it pertains to football, I would say I believe the odds of him staying are good for another year. BUT, Holmgren was hired because Lerner admitted he doesn't believe in Mangini as a shot-caller in terms of FO personnel or players. If he did believe in Mangini, he wouldn't have spent $50 million bucks. As a result, because we DID bring in Holmgren, I believe Mangini isn't going to be here. I think in many ways, Lerner has already told us what he thinks of Mangini and his entire body of work.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Mangini has instilled character and discipline into a group of guys that are playing as a team.
The team now has a base, a standard to adhere to as far as what is expected from the players throughout the year from week to week. As the braintrust goes into the draft and free agency, the addition of blue chip talent to a team that already has a disciplined structure in place will result in a lot more success on the field.
There isn't an overwhelming reason to believe that a defensive minded HC, and a very cerebral and hardworking one at that, is going to refuse or fail to learn offensive philosophy from a source as pedigreed as Holmgren. There also isn't any logic jumping out at me that says Holmgren will refuse to let these defensive minded guys run that side of the ball their way.
Holmgren is going to want to see an organized and effective staff working together within a system. I don't think it's disputed that Mangini believes the same thing. He has said over and over again that he believes in doing things in a systematic, methodical manner, and expects his staff and players to do the same.
In short, IMO there isn't a compelling reason to tear down and reinstall an organizational philosophy, when the one in place is working and is also basically the same blueprint. It's just a matter of weather the two guys can work together without butting heads.
Mangini stays.
A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.
John Barrymore
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I like your POV, I think the only thing that would come between them is player aquisition, whether that be draft or free agency one is gonna want someone that the other would rather have someone else. Ultimately I think it could work but, I guess we will see what happens.
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I keep hearing this 'entire body of work' thing, and while it has merit, why does everyone expect perfection? We shouldn't expect perfection, we should expect progress. We saw progress.
And all the anit-Mangini guys have really dismissed the 'taking steps back intially to move forward' dynamic that happened here.
He is still a relatively young coach with a helluva an ego. But smart people can be humbled - even ego-maniacs - if winning is the most important thing to them. I bet you Mangini was both humbled and continued to learn valuable lessons on the job this year ... things that will serve him well in the future.
At the same time, he also instilled some valuable lessons onto this team that have some real sustenance - playing hard, playing the right way, good character on and off the field, playing as a team.
He deserves to stay on as coach.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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It'll be interesting. Should Holmgren retain him, will the so called pundits boo and hiss Holmgren since they hate Mangini or will they suddenly warm to him saying Holmgren knows a good coach when he see him.
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Does anyone here "really care what the pundits think ?" I know I don't and never have.
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Does anyone here "really care what the pundits think ?"
I know I don't and never have.
Oh I don't care what they say. I want to see their stance with Holmgren. As it stands he can do no wrong. Let's see if give Mangini the nod!
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Perfection..............I can't speak for others, but I never expected such a thing. But I don't think the pursuit of perfection is the same as the pursuit of intelligent moves.
It doesn't take an NFL personnel man to know that if you're going to install a new offensive scheme, and that the scheme is totally crap in camp, that you should give your offense as much time in preseason as possible to get it together.
But Mangini didn't.
Having your hand-picked GM get fired before the season was even close to over isn't a mistake in a pursuit of perfection. That's a clear gaffe on mangini's part.
I applaud dumping Winslow and Edwards. I poop on the belief that replacing them with the likes of Royal and Furrey was a smart gamble.
I can see Mangini making mistakes. A missed 2nd round pick isn't reason for saying he should be fired. Seeing a team struggle in certain areas isn't a reason for saying he should be fired. But Mangini screwed alot of moves, and to be honest, more than most head coaches should be allowed to make.
I don't see the criticism being unfair in many cases.
Evaluating mangini with no outside influences involved would make a decent case for him returning, but the hiring of Holmgren changes everything. It's no longer about Mangini. It's about Holmgren.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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j/c
I think you can look at this season as "A body of Work" but not in the way you intended. We all have to admit that Romeo let the team get really soft and undisciplined, the team was lost during Romeo's last year. Mangini had to come in and completely change their attitudes. My Way or The Highway type of thing to get them playing right. Yeah, it took all year to get it going, but look how it turned out. True, they mostly beat weak teams, but honestly the Browns are not a strong team until they get the QB situation straightened out. So they beat out teams that were on their level, they did it well, and lots of bright spots. Their D was vastly improved, Special teams did a fantastic job, and our O was good (RBs), just QBs have issues. Mangini put the team in a position to win, and they did. What more can you ask ? I guess it is up to MH to answer that question.....
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Yea I agree, I just think all this stuff about Mangini losing the locker room and stuff is crap, and there is nothing anyone can say to defend it. I don't give a damn what Jamal Lewis has to say (no matter how he practices) didn't give him the voice of the team. I think proof is in the pudding there, I have voiced my opinion on the QB thing, I am not sure there is much else to debate. He has won with sub-starter material for the most part
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I just think all this stuff about Mangini losing the locker room and stuff is crap
It always was. So was the talk that the players quit on him during games.
When a team is getting blown out, players quit not because they hate the coach, but because they are emotionally defeated. That's human nature.
There are things to dislike Mangini for, but those aren't two of'em.
Side note: How hard has it got to be for Zorn right now..............I just saw the Ticker on ESPN's The Blitz read: "Redskins will fire Zorn Monday."
Tough being an NFL coach *L*
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Hey, if I could get fired and get 3 million a year or so for 2 or 3 years I'd go in tomorrow and kick him square in the apple sack!!
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I can see Mangini making mistakes. A missed 2nd round pick isn't reason for saying he should be fired. Seeing a team struggle in certain areas isn't a reason for saying he should be fired. But Mangini screwed alot of moves, and to be honest, more than most head coaches should be allowed to make.
I guess this re-enforces my point, Mangini won't be the man so alot of these decisions won't be his anymore. The man can teach football, he isn't a bad coach.
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Yea I agree, the possibilities make me drool, this isn't the thread really, but I think if Mangini could get some good offensive help on the coaching side we could be good. i.e. Zorn as Qb coach and Mooch as OC. I don't really know how likely that is but, sure sounds good to me.
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And that's precisely why I think Mangini can't survive.
Those are all going to be WCO, Holmgren guys. Mangini would be a lame-duck coach. If things go south, and he goes after one of his coaches, that coach goes to Holmgren who sits on Mangini.
That situation just doesn't equal stability..................
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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And all the anit-Mangini guys have really dismissed the 'taking steps back intially to move forward' dynamic that happened here.
Problem with that...it's the "free pass" argument in disguise...
1st off, we didn't take only 1 step back...it was horrendous...we got trashed and weren't remotely competitive, both QBs regressed big time, the OC looked clueless, the young WR weren't ready...that's on him...he put this mess together.
Now that we were THIS bad, it was only possible to get better..and so we did (inflated by the fact we played worse teams than before)....."lowered expectation" made us progress...but are we really a better team than 1 year ago? Do we have more talent? I don't see it..we can't pass the ball at all, can be passed on all day and are very inconsistent defending the run...
taking a bad team, managing to make it horrible and then taking it back to bad-level IS NOT progress in my book
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He is still a relatively young coach with a helluva an ego. But smart people can be humbled - even ego-maniacs - if winning is the most important thing to them. I bet you Mangini was both humbled and continued to learn valuable lessons on the job this year ... things that will serve him well in the future.
That's what the Mangini cheerleaders (not you) were saying when he arrived here...I think this won't change enough (I severely doubt AT ALL) to please our new EGO in town...there's just too much data on Mangini being the opposite to have any rational belief in it sorry
#gmstrong
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Toad, I have to disagree with you on EM's FO part of it. Your argument is that LR thought that EM's choice of FO personnel was crap. Well, let's say that part is true. Why not just take the FO part out of it & let EM do what he does best & that is coach. Isn't that what LR did by firing GK? I think he was trying to help EM by taking the FO part out of it & bringing in MH.
There's no reason that EM can't continue to be HC while MH & Co. go out & get the players that EM needs to continue to build the team. I think Homey
already knows what's its like to be HC & GM. I think EM will give up some power in order to help the team.
Homey has to be real careful in how he handles this. If he comes in & sweeps the rug out then he might lose the team's desire, which it looks like is changing for the better. I don't think any of us want to see that.
IMO, I just don't see enough down-side to risk losing the players & having to start all over.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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Your argument is that LR thought that EM's choice of FO personnel was crap. Well, let's say that part is true. Why not just take the FO part out of it & let EM do what he does best & that is coach.
That's a different discussion.
The FO part is pertinent to the discussion as it pertains to evaluating everything Mangini did. To that end it can't be dismissed.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Toad, I have ¼o disagree with you on EM's FO part of it. Your argument is that LR thought that EM's choice of FO personnel was crap. Well, let's say that part is true. Why not just take the FO part out of it & let EM do what he does best & that is coach. Isn't that what LR did by firing GK? I think he was trying to help EM by taking the FO part out of it & bringing in MH.
Why is this that much diff than when Holmgren was the grand Pubah of Seattle? JMO but I think MH knows the situation and rationalizes with it. QB's be damned ( and that is the only argument that carries weight) they either draft one or get a vet.
Any argument about Mangini's FO is mute now, because if he is kept is gonna be as a coach, so why bring it up.
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Yeah, your right in that regards I guess. But, I think the important thing is that they all LEARNED from it. I just hope it's not to late. I think Randy jumped the gun a little to early. Now that's not to say something did not need to be done, cause it did. It's really gonna be interesting to see what happens. I am really pulling for EM. I like what's he's been able to pull off & show these guy's how to win. How do you tell these players that even though they played hard & are starting to win, it really does not matter because now your going to have to learn how to win a different way?
Tread lightly mister Homey.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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He deserves to stay on as coach.
Uh....no he doesn't.
But we could argue all day as to why you believe he does and I believe he doesn't. In the end it only matters what Holmgren thinks.
I'm pretty sure we'll find out what MH thinks by the end of the week. I'm willing to go along with whatever the Big Show decides.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 512
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 512 |
for being one of the people that defend the media on this board I'm curious as to your reasoning?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
for being one of the people that defend the media on this board I'm curious as to your reasoning?
My reasoning for what?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 765
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 765 |
Mangini beat the steelers with a pop warner football team.
I hope he stays
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