Quote: I'm not expecting him to win. I'm not even asking for him to win. I do expect that if he's making the strides many of you believe he's making then he should show great improvement when facing the adversity of the Steelers defense. He doesn't have to win the game. All he has to do is show he's getting it. That means not taking a sack like he did last night when he stood in the pocket for twenty minutes. That means making accurate throws on swing routes to the flat, like he didn't do a couple of times last night. That means throwing the ball away if he has to. That means making accurate throws down the field into tight windows, something he hasn't been able to do yet as an NFL QB.
As an adjunct to my main job, I give private lessons to a small, select handful of talented youn'uns. A pattern emerges with most of them: when I make an observation to help them correct a flaw in technique, I invariably get 'too much of the cure" from them... almost immediately. It always makes me chuckle. Then, I suggest that they take the impulses that caused "the cure," and split the difference. The really good ones take the suggestion to heart, and start showing results in a few weeks. The process takes months, but the trend can be tracked within the first 3-4 weeks. I suppose with NFL QB's, the timeline might take a bit longer... seeing as how other cellists aren't trying to sack my students into the stage floor. Still, human nature remains constant, no matter the activity. Seems to me, these recent developments are the antithesis of those 2 knocks. Well... possibly, at least. It's still awfully early to know for sure.
Is it possible that what we're seeing from BQ (in at least the two highlighted entries) is a "talented kid making the necessary corrections?" To date, the comparitive knocks against him were that he was too keen to check down early, and that he was too shy to take a calculated risk.
As for the other two observations... ugh. Swing passes- those shouldn't have ever been a problem for "the most NFL-ready QB in his class." Threading the long-range needle? ... that can improve still, given enough games.
Quote: Expecting him to show maturity against the Steelers is not at all unreasonable. This game will go a long way into determining if he's here next year as the starter or not.
Agreed. 100%.
Toadster, a hypothetical Q 4 U: Suppose BQ improves enough in the two highlighted categories to put our minds at ease. Suppose as well, that the other two lag behind for the remainder of the season.
Does he show enough to warrant a full (uncontested, unbenched) year as our 2010 #1?
(I love the hypotheticals... they beat the tangible "patheticals" that are our present reality...)
I will say that yesterday's game was the first game this year that Quinn looked the part of a NFL Quarterback. I think there are a couple of reasons why.
1) Stuckey is beginning to understand the offense. 2) Quinn had a TE to throw to.
Look at the stats for Browns TE this year,
Vikings, Royal 4/60/1, Heiden 2/14 Broncos, Royal 1/13 Ravens, Royal 1/7 Bengals, Heiden 5/33, Royal 2/13 Bills, Heiden 1/7 Steelers, 0/0 Green Bay, Gaines 2/30 Estandia 2/10 Chicago, Heiden 1/10 Ravens, Heiden 1/9, Royal 1/7 Lions, Estandia 1/18, Gaines 2/5/1 Bengals, Estandia 1/17 Chargers, Moore 6/80
Season Totals Heiden 10/73, Royal 9/100/1, Moore 6/80, Estandia 4/45, Gaines 4/35/1 Browns 33/333/2
Now, I am not putting Moore into the HOF as of yet, but it does point out the value of a TE, as Tampa, even with their stuggles have had good production from Winslow.
Quinns tendancy to check down, meant a checkdown to a RB and not a TE as it has in the past.
Quote: Suppose BQ improves enough in the two highlighted categories to put our minds at ease. Suppose as well, that the other two lag behind for the remainder of the season.
Does he show enough to warrant a full (uncontested, unbenched) year as our 2010 #1?
The fairness of that question is matched only by the difficulty in answering it.
I think I owe you more than a vanilla, blanket answer, so I'll try and take each individual question and give a personal response.........
Quote:
That means not taking a sack like he did last night when he stood in the pocket for twenty minutes.
Couch never got it, but Couch was football-dumb. That was one of my greatest assaults to his viability as a QB in this league.
I view Quinn in a different light, as I believe him to be a smart QB. As a result, I fully believe he'll improve in that area, and by year's end.
Quote: That means making accurate throws on swing routes to the flat, like he didn't do a couple of times last night.
I believe with more reps with familiar players that will improve as well. It's also about nerves.
Quote: That means throwing the ball away if he has to.
It's in his blood to make plays. That's what he was taught to do at Notre Dame, so I think that's one which will be tough for him to overcome. He's still doing it today.
Quote: That means making accurate throws down the field into tight windows, something he hasn't been able to do yet as an NFL QB.
My biggest complaint, and the singularly biggest reason I don't believe he's a good bet.
I don't believe that he's got an accurate enough arm to be a really good starter, and I don't believe any amount of reps or comfort-zone are going to allow him to overcome those issues.
When I've seen Quinn succeed, it looks just like the games I saw of his in college, where he had big windows to throw into. That includes the Detroit game this year, the back-end of the game last week, and the Denver game last year. When he's struggled, he isn't pin-point accurate past the short routes. That was also one of my biggest complaints regarding Couch: He looked accurate on short routes, but when it came to making NFL-throws, he was off the mark.
So...........The question you posed to me.............If he shows improvement on the two highlighted questions but not on the other two, would he earn an uncontested look-see next year as the undisputed #1?
In the NFL, you MUST be accurate down the field. You can only take a team so far being a dink-dunker in this league. Now the league has been filled with Super-bowl "Dinkers" but they were also accurate going down the field. If Quinn can't show consistent accuracy in that regard by his 3rd year in the NFL, then no, I wouldn't be comfortable handing him the #1 job without competition.
Taking your thoughts and extending the logic, even though I personally don't believe in Quinn, I could see a new regime hedging their bets by bringing in someone to compete with him.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
I would hope by now everyone knows that I think Quinn has the skillset to be sucessfull in the NFL. I think that most of his issues are resolved with throwing with time off his front foot.
That being said two things bother me:
1. He holds the ball incorrectly. Not sure why a QB coach can't fix this. 2. He has no accuracy over 30 yards.
Basically he has the same accuracy as anyone with a real NFL arm would have if he closed his eyes and threw it as far as he could. And that's troubling to me.
To me...and what I see from QBs around the league...we are fortunate to have Quinn as our QB.
We have the worst skill position players on a NFL team in the last 30 years. We have a Top 20-15 NFL line. Trust me the Packers would trade for our line immediately. But it's not very good at all. We have one GREAT player and then marginal at LG and C and then awful at RG and the worst RT in the entire league.
To me Quinn is one of our best players. On the entire team. And that wigs me out. But it's true. Hard to debate it even. Can't wait to see it!
I'm skeptical, you're optimistic, yet we both have the same fundamental issue with Quinn: Consistent accuracy with NFL throws.
Would you agree that if he's developing at an acceptable rate, he should show some signs of progress against the Steelers this week? Keep in mind that the question isn't one of beating the Steelers, but simply making strides in terms of decision making, patience, and accuracy.
If he plays well and beats the Steelers, even without Polly, I'll STHU
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
I think you guys are missing the boat here...debating who see's what in him...I'll say this again..Everyone should want BQ to improve and succeed.. It will prevent the Browns from spending/wasting a high pick on a weak QB class.. If he doesn't the Browns will have to draft one..now the good thing is that they can do so after the second round if they get a FA to come in.. I will repeat this as much as possible, there is no QB in this draft that is a top ten pick, no a real first rounder..pretty much any of the QB's coming out are second-fourth round prospects and they all have some glaring weaknesses.. This team is so talent starved in almost every position if they just went BPA with every pick,that would be a improvement.
I will agree with you that everyone should want and hope that Quinn improves.
I was hard on the kid earlier this year, but then relented some based on the crappy play of everyone around both QBs. I do think that Quinn played a couple of nice games against the Lions and Chargers. Hopefully he will continue to improve, making a high cost QB addition unneccesary.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I'm of the opinion, that even if BQ plays inconsistently the rest of the way that he deserves next year. Part of that is exactly what you said, I want him to succeed so we don't have to spend another high draft pick on a QB... the other part is that with all of the other holes we have to fill, drafting a QB at all this year would be foolish. And the only way I bring in another QB via trade or FA is if a CLEAR upgrade becomes available.. and Campbell in my opinion is NOT a clear upgrade.
Haven't had TV access to any games since Baltimore. Has Quinn shown, at anytime, since that debacle, that he can sling one downfield with any velocity?
You mention that he tends to look good against weaker teams, weaker defenses. Isn't this the same guy, when he was at Notre Dame, who looked great against Navy and Purdue, and had annual meltdowns against USC and Bowl opponents?
Every year the same thing.
Sometimes you are what you are. A few years ago I remember going to the blue to watch Boise State play Oregon State. Oregon State's quarterback would sling a lazer downfield, gain 35 yards, and Boise looked finished. Next play he would throw an interception where there wasn't a receiver anywhere near the play. The whole game went that way. He still is what he is.
Does anyone believe that Brady will someday put together 3 great games in a row, against three playoff caliber teams? Has he ever shown that potential?
Once again, can he stand in the pocket and throw downfield with some degree of velocity?
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71-79 Steelers Taboo (Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
Quote: CLEVELAND — One good game could be a fluke. Two, a coincidence. But when the quarterback who was benched at halftime of his third start can get his job back and play three straight games without being intercepted, well, maybe things are starting to click.
I consider Quinn to have 2 Good Games in the last 3 Games. If he can have a good game against Pittsburgh (Even with their Defensive Problems) I would consider it a trend.
I also found this funny:
Quote: Picture perfect
The Browns team photo was placed on the chair of each player in the locker room on Monday. The group photo was taken on the first weekend of the regular season.
Sixteen players on the current roster were not on the team when the picture was taken.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with his velocity... if he has an area of concern it is accuracy, not velocity. I would even go so far as to say that part of his problem is that he attempts to be too cute in steering the ball downfield and often doesn't throw it with the velocity that he should. In the waning drives of the Chargers game, he had a few very nice 15 yard slant route throws that were lasers on the numbers.. real nice throws even with decent coverage.. he can do it, he just has to do it more often.
Quote: Does anyone believe that Brady will someday put together 3 great games in a row, against three playoff caliber teams? Has he ever shown that potential?
Not with the talent we have.... I think that was the problem at ND as well, ND was overmatched by USC, etc at almost every position... just as we are overmatched against almost all of our opponents now. He has shown that when our guys match up ok with their guys that he can play well...
Which is essentially the foundation of my argument, let's get him some better guys and see if he grows with them. Right now it's honestly hard to tell what the limiting factor is, I just don't think it's BQ.. yet. Trust me, as soon as I think that BQ is the limiting factor and is the guy holding the offense back, I'll call for his head, right now I just don't think we've reached that point yet.
I would even go so far as to say that part of his problem is that he attempts to be too cute in steering the ball downfield and often doesn't throw it with the velocity that he should.
Maybe he's trying to be too cute period.. too much weightlighting..trying to be too cut/ripped .. Most QB's are not that muscle bound or cut....it could make his throwing motion a bit unnatural.. Remember the coaches were trying to adjust his grip on the ball and release..in TC..they were not satisfied with his mechanics..now did they mess something up or was there actually something wrong with his grip/release?
1.) Supporting Talent: You need them regardless of any QB 2.) Confidence: You need to stick with your QB and let him grow, period. 3.) Experience: He's only had 10 Starts. Give him his chance. 4.) Trust: There seems to be trust issues between the OC and QB. You need to call the plays and allow your QB to take a chance on making them.
I think as soon as you add a RB of the Future (Not saying Harrison or Davis isn't), a young TE that is reliable (Not ready to crown Moore just yet) and a improved RG/ROT, Quinn might be able to do something with this Offense.
"Absolutely nothing wrong with his velocity" Really?
I am well aware of the accuracy issues. My hope was, that someday, we may get a Holmgren, Weis (? yikes), somebody to develop the accuracy. But, if he can't sling it downfield, its over. And, from my perspective, even when he gets time and actually has one of his good throws, it doesn't appear, or how about it hasn't appeared, that he actually has an NFL arm.
"Nothing wrong with his velocity, absolutely nothing wrong with it," dating back to his freshman season at Notre Dame I think I've seen the guy make 5-10 decent throws downfield.
I guess I'm just wrong.
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71-79 Steelers Taboo (Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
Quote: dating back to his freshman season at Notre Dame I think I've seen the guy make 5-10 decent throws downfield.
I guess I'm just wrong.
Yes you are.
I understand not likely the guy, he hasn't played up to expectations at this point, but don't just make crap up. Seriously 5-10 "decent" throws downfield in his four years at ND and his three years in Cleveland??? C'mon.
lol...sometimes it seems we are often on the opposite train of thought but usually when we are both there it should mean something. First thing I thought of as I watched the Stanford USC game...please unless we are talking like 3rd round pick - I'd be very careful about TV2
After all it was you n I almost alone in our thoughts of Rogers being the better QB in 05 in the Pre Draft Smith vs Rogers debates. BQ is showing some improvement...heck whenever a QB plays a rating of 100+ 2 out of 3 weeks its is a sign that maybe that will be the rule and not the exception.
Also it has to be noted that he's around 140 passes without an INT and none since his return as starter???
In those 2 out of 3 games he has thrown for 7 TDs considering the total ineptitude of our Offense and the rarity of ONE TD let alone 7 - this is a bright spot and reason to make us go...hmmmm maybe...MAYBE we do have our Franchise QB here. I was so sick of those NAUSIATING stats given by the announcers of our game...The Browns have not scored a TD since? The Browns have only scored One TD since? I was getting sick of it. And the opening DRIVE for a TD was another stat of futility expunged. These are all good signs. Like any player being relaxed sees the best results. BQ is a different QB when he gets TENSE - he has to be relaxed throughout and it will be then and only then when everything around him will seem to slow down in slo-mo mode and I think we just might have a GREAT QB here when that does happen.
Is it there? No, that is not what I'm saying but there is now enough to say...WOAH, can this be? Do we got our Franchise QB here. 3 weeks ago I was a little depressed at the thought that we were going to have to utilize a low draft pick for a NEW QB PROSPECT...now its not as automatic as I had thought.
Will the Browns produce and play to the end of this season so that we can get a decent account of what BQ brings?
btw...Jason Campbell? Sorry not a solution.
Best case scenario for the Browns and thats what I do as a fan look at the best case scenarios. I am full aware that it might not fall just quite that way, I don't need somebody to tell me about Kool Aid and crapola like that. I'm aware there are WORST CASE scenarios out there also. I choose not to dwelve on them and quite frankly I don't see why any fan would? But hey, that just me.
Anyways best case scenario is BQ continues to grow...oh I'm sure there will be a step back here n there as long as he moves forwards and still shows GROWTH.
This way we can do a couple of things... 1. Continue with BQ with the thought that he truly is our Franchise QB...which in that case Toad I wouldn't mind acquiring Jason Campbell as our Back UP QB and rid ourselves of DA....I don't care if its a release or 7th rounder compensation. Upgrade on him.
But with that thought process conduct our draft without a need for QB and make strides in getting IMPACT players for the Defense and possibly bolster some OL talent.
2. Continue to start 2010 with BQ and make no bones about it...again rid ourselves of DA. Utilize that high draft pick for an exceptional talent at QB such as a Sam Bradford (he is the stud in the draft, as long as he heals) - let him learn and yes, I know the ramifications of not getting any use of a very early First Round pick. But the team would be the better for it.
Cause BQ will be our starter...no competition. BQ will prove to be a Stud QB or just a serviceable QB - I really don't think there is bust in him at all. So that when the time comes in year 2 or 3 of the drafted QBs career we could get One or possibly TWO first round picks for BQ pending on his status. Similar to the Brees, Rivers situation in SD. Except Brees had surgery at the wrong time for SD to garnish the bonanza of a trade that they had. What I'm getting at is a team will always be Rewarded with having TWO stud QBs...not the DA vs. BQ thing we had this year.
I'm talking about the Brady vs Bledsoe thing...The Brees vs. Rivers thing.
Keep in mind BQ also is very reasonably priced now that he won't meet the escalators in his contract although we did run a heck of a lot of plays in these 2 games of valid offense...wonder if that is getting close to be back in the mix???
Anyways as always...JMHO and thinking out loud
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I would like to see us somehow finagle our way into getting 5 picks in rounds 1 thru 3... we should at least get our way to 3 picks in the 1st 2 rounds... I'd like to see 4 or 5 though and one of them NOT be a QB so we can put talent around him that will make him more likely to succeed and at least improve the cast around that because it is crucial...
Trade DA for the best pick you can and maybe draft a boom/bust potential guy in rounds 4-5... That way if it looks like BQ is not improving and we're writing him off (hope that doesn't happen) before the end of the year we can put in a rookie QB with potential and see if we can just hit on a late one (odds may be slim yes but with the right cast around a QB, time, and a guy who knos quarterbacks and someone who has experience, knowledge, and overall offensive vision, anything can happen). That is the direction I'm leaning in at the moment.
Last edited by josh07dawson; 12/08/0902:12 PM.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
I would definitely like to see us package up some picks/players to move up but that's not Mangini's MO.. if he's the one making the decisions. I'd rather have 6 picks and have 4 of them be first day picks than have 11 picks and have a bunch in late rounds.
My sentiments exactly. As for Mangini making the picks... I hope to the football gods that he is not the one running our draft.
I could think of a couple guys I have more faith in drafting (cough cough rising stars David Gettlemen and above all Tom Heckert cough) with all that amunition and doing some moving and shaking. I don't want to spiral our way down like last year via trade although I liked how much money it saved.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Quote: I would definitely like to see us package up some picks/players to move up but that's not Mangini's MO.. if he's the one making the decisions. I'd rather have 6 picks and have 4 of them be first day picks than have 11 picks and have a bunch in late rounds.
We might not want, or even have to, "move up." While none of us prays for continued losses, if we don't take this Suh kid with what looks like the first pick--absent a deal that gets picks AND leaves us with a sure shot to get him--I would seriously question what's going on.
I think Quinn is serviceable,...that saves us having to take a QB.
I would love a switch to the 4-3 if we draft Suh, a solid 4-3 DE prospect like Greg Hardy, and sign a free agent 4-3 DE, and keep Rogers, Rubin (goal line, run stuffing, rotational guy I would be okay with), and maybe one of the current 3-4 DEs at DT and would say that might be instantly one of the top defensive tackle rotations in the league and REALLY improve our defense.
Then we just need the linebackers, secondary, overhaul of the right side of the line (at least RT obviously), another WR, a good running back, potentially a QB, a TE and we are SET. Out of breath. That's a lot of needs.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
I would definitely like to see us package up some picks/players to move up but that's not Mangini's MO.. if he's the one making the decisions
Doesn't matter what EM's desires are..he's not touching the draft..bank on that. Once we know who's coming in...we'll look at his track record and be able to see what he might do..
Quote: I would love a switch to the 4-3 if we draft Suh, a solid 4-3 DE prospect like Greg Hardy, and sign a free agent 4-3 DE, and keep Rogers, Rubin (goal line, run stuffing, rotational guy I would be okay with), and maybe one of the current 3-4 DEs at DT and would say that might be instantly one of the top defensive tackle rotations in the league and REALLY improve our defense.
Then we just need the linebackers, secondary, overhaul of the right side of the line (at least RT obviously), another WR, a good running back, potentially a QB, a TE and we are SET. Out of breath. That's a lot of needs.
The thing I like about the 4-3 is, I believe it is easier to find 3 good/decent linebackers than it is to find four, and likewise easier to "cover" for a weakness among 4 DLinemen. JMO.
If you get lucky with any backup LBer and he can switch on and off as a tweener, then you can run a 3-4 when necessary. It's what they're all trying to do anyway,.....
Quote: After all it was you n I almost alone in our thoughts of Rogers being the better QB in 05 in the Pre Draft Smith vs Rogers debates.
I remember the debates and it was about 70/30. And somehow I don't remember you on the right side of that one. I know I was on the Rogers side but don't remember you on that side. Or strongly on that side.
I dunno about agenda, but any argument that has a highlight film to back it up is suspect at best.
They're called highlights for a reason. They only tell one specific side of the story.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Quote: I dunno about agenda, but any argument that has a highlight film to back it up is suspect at best.
They're called highlights for a reason. They only tell one specific side of the story.
Well, the comment was made by somebody that they only saw him make 5 decent downfield throws his entire career at Notre Dame.. so the video was never intended to show his whole body of work, just dispell that one inaccurate statement. Which it did.
If you would prefer to go back and watch 30+ full game tapes and count the downfield throws for yourself, have at it.
All I know is I was able to watch Quinn 8-10 times in college -- maybe twice a year. My memory is that of meltdowns, pouting, and poor throws. As a Brown's fan I was always interested in seeing him play and understanding what the hype was all about. The thought that anyone may possibly quarterback the Browns someday draws my attention.
I have watched the highlight reel. So, technically you may have something on me. He may have actually made more than 10 good downfield throws in the past 7 years. I'm guilty as charged.
I should probably be more specific in my definition of what I consider a downfield throw.
Agenda...nope. I've waited too long to have any agenda. My agenda is Super Bowl. Nothing else. Nothing. Hard to imagine anyone wishing for Quinn to be the real deal more than me.
Once again, sign Jason Campbell and see if there even is a quarterback controversy. I doubt it. Not that Campbell is the answer either.
Who was the guy that mentioned the potential Charlie Frye II?
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71-79 Steelers Taboo (Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
Quote: BQ is showing some improvement...heck whenever a QB plays a rating of 100+ 2 out of 3 weeks its is a sign that maybe that will be the rule and not the exception.
Also it has to be noted that he's around 140 passes without an INT and none since his return as starter???
Not for nothing, but he threw two INTs in his first game back, one of which was a pick six. He's had a 100+ rating once since coming back, and <60 rating twice.
"I know I was on the Rogers side but don't remember you on that side. Or strongly on that side."
yeah, you're right - I made that up just now and lied to boot
I never really pimped him to draft...but from the get go I was wowed by his Technique and thought he was going to be great. As for pimping I pretty much ended up pimping Merriman not Rogers. I thought if we traded down Rogers was a possibility and if we TOOK A QB I wanted Rogers over Smith. I remember Toad and I getting into detail on what we both so positive in Rogers.
In the QB threads I liked Rogers...pimping for our pick I was all for Merriman.
but Unless I'm a bold faced LIAR I think I would be one most apt to know who I liked and didn't like. So basically you have decided to call me a liar.
Thanks, hey I know you don't like me...but LIAR???
JMHDisappointment
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too much weightlighting..trying to be too cut/ripped ..
So that when the time comes in year 2 or 3 of the drafted QBs career we could get One or possibly TWO first round picks for BQ pending on his status. Similar to the Brees, Rivers situation in SD. Except Brees had surgery at the wrong time for SD to garnish the bonanza of a trade that they had. What I'm getting at is a team will always be Rewarded with having TWO stud QBs...not the DA vs. BQ thing we had this year.
Out of breath. That's a lot of needs.
I think I would be one most apt to know who I liked and didn't like. So basically you have decided to call me a liar.