DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum BQ continued....

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Decision making isn't precluded by weather elements.

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Yes it is.

A decision that intuitively and instinctively quickly comes to mind must be instantly tempered taking the cold/wind into account.

Here's an example that even you can understand...

Outside your restaurant you see a cute chick but judge that she's a little too heavy for you so you decide to take a pass on that one. Then, later, when she comes inside and removes her coat you see that she's a brick house, but it was the coat that made her look so heavy. So that was a bad decision on your part related directly as a result of the cold.

Quinn Post Game Field Interview

I still wish Winslow was still here. He gave Brady hes best hair cut.

I wish he would cut that damn hair. He dont need Polamalus shampoo commercails.

He's growing it out, they donating it to cancer patients after the season.

I remember hearing that now that you said that.

The defense and special teams won the game. The offense didn't lose it. That's good enough.

The QB gets credit for the win, that's all there is to it. Mangini will get credit, too, though he didn't do it alone.

Pitchers get wins, too, that were mostly/entirely due other parts of the team.

After watching QB after QB self destruct against Pittsburgh, I find it at least a little funny that Brady is getting no credit for simply managing the game.

Now, let me preface this by saying he still has a ways to go but he did what he had to do to not lose the game. Sometimes, that's what you need out of a QB.

He rode a hot defense / running game and avoided the big mistakes that have always crippled us against the Steelers. What's so wrong with that?! Plus, he was just a hair off on a number of throws...he'll make some adjustments and get better.

Sometimes, as a QB, not losing the game is all your team needs. Quinn shouldn't get a ton of credit but he shouldn't get zero either (i.e. that long 3rd down conversion to MoMass was pretty big late in the game).

The numbers don't look great but the end result sure does. For a guy making his 11th NFL start, a win against Pittsburgh isn't so bad.

Quinn threw a few bad passes last night, but luckily none of them were costly. Down the stretch we had a couple painful 3 and outs, but luckily none of them were costly.

He wasn't perfect, but he didn't shoot us in the foot either. And he has shown some improvements...which gives me hope we may have a QB on our roster.

Ditto there. Spending a high pick on another QB with all the tasty D-linemen in the mix would be painful. All I'm hoping for is Quinn to do enough that we can focus on the rest of the pieces, not the same one over and over. I could stand watching QB play like we've had the last 4 weeks, it's decent overall. Remove things like MoMass downfield blocking on a pass that I expect was intended for him, and it should get even better.

Hell when Couch destroyed the steelers, I can remember one poster that said Tim didnt do anything special the receivers were getting open. umm okay lol

Quinn made a few bad throws, he got lucky on a couple throws, he just missed on some really good throws, receivers stopping in mid route didnt help, Stuckey deciding to make out with the DB on a curl route didnt help out, Vickers dropping a pretty good pass didnt help, St. Claire and Womack forgetting to do this thing called blocking didnt help.

Quinn didnt have a good day at the office but he has lost games when he was almost flawless. I'll take th win over Pitt which pretty much eliminates them from the playoffs over a good performance by a qb.

I agree, if Brady isn't the man I hope the Browns 'franchise' QB is still in college...let's build up a team and worry about the QB in a year or two.

Just a question I thought of whilst watching the game .....

We all know there are incentives in Brady's contract if he plays so many snaps. When we run the wildcat does this count towards Brady's snap count? and does anyone know if he is on target to hit these bonuses?

I heard that when Brady took back over the reigns vs Baltimore that it was pretty much impossible for him to get the 70% of the snaps.

Most of the time during the wildcat Quinn is in at receiver so I would think that would count towards the number of snaps taken.

You know Anderson was three and out so often that if quinn was to put together some of those long methodical drives, there is a chance he could reach the escalators.

I said that when all of this originally became an issue,...when you don't really know what "X" is, how can you possibly know what "Y" -- 70% of X -- can be ?

I suppose you could call me a "Quinn-guy" (I am wearing his jersey at work today, haha!), but I thought he played pretty poorly. I remember his incomplete passes, for the most part, were waaaaaay off. He also got really lucky he wasn't picked off (ball hit the hands of a steelers db).

Still, this game shows we don't have to take a QB in the draft this year.

So basically your saying you saw something and now you don't. More or less admitting your eye for talent or lack of talent is not very reliable?

He, he, he

wow

you are wise, witty, and intelligent

Overtoad:

I can agree with much you have said. Quinn in fact did not play very well last night at all. I can attest to that..the weather and wind played a part in it, as well as Quinn did himself.

However, Quinn right now is "light years" ahead of where he was the first two weeks of the season. Quinn has shown improvement. I was more of a DA guy, but Quinn has improved, i'll give him that.

our Wide Receiver core is a mess...we have two rookies in Mass and Robo(WR is one of the hardest positions to learn in the NFL) it takes 3 years for Wr to learn it, and most WR don't show much of "anything" of merit until half way through their second year.

Chanci Stuckey has no timing with either QB..we switched Qb too much, and there just hasn't been enough reps there.

we have the worst receiving core in football right, and rookie Wr can't be expected to gell as quickly as many would like.

Brady Quinn has his deficiencies,however he takes far too much of the blame..our WR core is young and inexperienced...Joe Montana himself would look awful with these rookie receivers.

Its no secret Quinn looked much better when Winslow and Edwards were both here...well more so Winslow...because Winslow was a seasoned pass catcher.

I would not be upset if the Browns drafted a Qb next year and kept Quinn, however, Quinn has shown me enough that we could go with him, Bring in a Veteran, and draft defensive help.

Quinn has been progressing, and I can't believe im saying this but if we can patient and let the kid play...he could be our guy...Qb don't develop sitting on the bench, they develop playing...Quinn sat the bench most of his 3 years...he hasn't gotten alot of playing time

Quinn needs to play "atleast" 22-24 games with a decent supporting cast around him IE start him at Qb next year with a better line, add another receiver and running game and I bet Quinn starts to look like the guy we hoped when we drafted him.

Anderson was in the same boat..the supporting cast is hurt the Qb more than anything else..

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And I'll go ahead and save some of you the effort. Do I have an agenda? You bet I do:

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Looking at cold hard facts (or a really accurate assessment) tends to force those with an agenda to get a bit testy. Stop blinding us with the truth! We want to believe.

The breakdown from the way he holds the clipboard, all the way through him breaking from the huddle, dropping back, and then....
is a classic.

Hasn't Toad's position been, and a few others, that Brady's main issue is that he cannot throw the ball? How is anything other than him working with some QB guru, who can perform magic/a miracle, going to correct that?

How does someone who doesn't have a talent, all of a suddent develop it?

Maybe there's a chance that he can show us that he turned around those concerns we had about his mentality and the nuclear meltdowns he had in big games in college. (A chance, but I'm sceptical about it)

Michael Jordan (and Lebron) had a knock on their jump shot - their outside shooting. They worked hard, they did the proper things, and they turned it around. Some pitchers have trouble with their control, and then work hard, with the right coach, and they become successful major leaguers.

Brady has been going to AP in Phoenix since college. The book says he's been working like a madman on his technical skills for years. I can see he has good footwork, and he can sell protein drinks when he takes off his shirt, but you have to throw the ball to play in the NFL. And, as Toad has made clear, you have to be able to throw it, downfield, with velocity and accuracy into the wind, if you are going to be a starting QB in the AFC North. Brady Quinn cannot do that. Neither could Couch, Frye, or ....

Can Bernie coach accurate throwing? He was very, very, accurate although unorthodox. Could he work with Quinn and turn him around. I don't know. Maybe the all knowing experts like the two guys who responded to me above have the absolute truth.

Good wide receivers make a world of difference. But, I read this board last year, and many of you were complaining that Winslow and Braylon both were having to really strecth in order to make the catches from Quinn that they made. That's a fact.

They only thing I could hear that would make me think, feel, believe differently would be if you told me that he is going to study under some magical yoda quarterback guru who has a track record of producing miracles.

You are correct. Quinn is going to be a great back up QB in this league. He can read a defense, makes good decisions, and will sometimes his open receivers.

In other words, he can help breakdown plays during game for the starting QB, and if pressed into duty will not lose the game. As a long term starter, he has too many weaknesses that can be exploited, mainly his lack of accuracy downfield.

All that's left is for him to realize no team wants him to start for them.

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Quinn has 3 games left, 2 against very sorry teams. I don't expect him to "just not lose the game" but rather to actually play well. This is his 3rd year. He should be much further along than this by now.

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You couldn't be MORE wrong. Yes, this is his third year..........BUT he spent his first year and most of his second being second guessed by a remarkably inept coach who insisted on playing DA instead of our first round pick. He had the benefit of learning what DA and Dorsey could teach him... nuff said.

I can't tell you how much it pains me, knowing that he sat idle with those two as his only real mentors and was held back from deveolpment. Imagine the outrage if we had sat Joe thomas behind a guy like ST. Clair for two years and expected him to truly learn something about the game at this level. IMHO that's what we did to Quinn.

Now, in his true rookie year as a starter, he gets off to a horrible start(as did the ENTIRE team) and the RUSHED decision to replace him with the always reliable DA came way too early. Now we are finally staring to see him DEVELOP, and you would through that away before you know anything.

I usually agree with you Toad, but you are letting some sort of bias distort your thinking here. IMHO - If Quinn had started three years ago, we would be watching a very complete QB out there today. So come on down off that high horse, change your STUPID sig that you stole from the movie Blindside and give the kid a REAL chance to prove himself.

Here's my take:

First the bad.....

I think Quinn had a miserable game last night.

he made 6/18 throws. and 2 of them required a considerable amount of effort by the WRs (Moore and MoMass catches) to catch inaccurate balls.

I disagree with Django that he was making the wrong reads. The scary part about a lot of it was he was making the correct reads a lot of the time and his accuracy was killing him. The Evan Moore overthrow in the endzone is another good example.

I also hate anytime he throws an 'out'....he either lobs them up so high and slow that he gets the WR/RB killed....or he throws it so low with no regards for the DL that it gets batted down. he has to create a passing window for himself and sling it in there, which he does not do.

whether it is his fault, Daboll's fault, or the WRs fault....the Browns have shown all season that they cannot make after-the-play reads correctly. Best example from last night was Stucky ran a 15 yard hook pattern when Quinn obviously thought the coverage called for a 10 yard out as that is where the ball went (thankfully it was man coverage so the CB couldn't take advantage and the ball fell harmlessly away).

finally, this season (he did not last season...or at least not nearly as much) he throws while almost leaning back on almost everything. this puts him on his heels and does not allow him to use his hips and legs to put the proper torque on his throwing technique, which may be leading to his inaccuracy issues.

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and now, the good

he doesn't turn the ball over. when he feels pressure, he either throws the ball away or he tucks the ball to avoid a fumble. he had several occasions, especially on 3rd down where he could have easily forced a ball but decided to throw it away (best example was a 3rd down where he had MoMass covered half the distance to the sticks with no chance of either catching it or doing anything afterwards, so he threw it at his feet....no, that one wasn't just inaccuracy)

he has a good play fake....on runs and reverses, I saw the Pitt defense stop making sure they knew who had the ball. this is a small skill, but one that many NFL QBs do not practice enough. now, if we could just put in some play-fakes to take advantage of this skill....




I don't know what else one could gather from last night's game. Coupled with his previous performances I would add that he seems to be getting better at reading defenses and that he is looking downfield before going to the checkdown pass (again not sure if that is him or Dabolll but it is happening).

also, did anyone else notice that when the game ended, Furrey was the first guy to run up to Quinn and give him a quick hug. with all the rumors on this board lately of Furrey and him not getting along or making faces or whatever, we should throw that out as well.

looking forward, I see Quinn as our most probably best solution for next year....I am not a fan of any of the QBs for a top10 pick this year in the draft. I am not a fan of giving up a 2nd round pick for Campbell plus locking him into a 3-4 year DA type contract. I think Quinn has enough upside potential to merit continuing to give him an opportunity.

However, it is going to take a significant amount of improvement and work from him. If a better solution becomes available (say for instance McCoy drops to us in the 2nd round), I would not be opposed at changing my stance and going in a new direction.

I do like the idea of getting Charlie Weis in here as OC...not only for his previous work with Quinn, but the fact he has been a successful NFL OC before. I want to see experience rule the day from the assistants on our staff. And that is whether or not Mangini is here next year (and I truly hope Ryan, Seely and we'll throw in Cox are all back next year).

Quinn did not look great last night but neither did Ben. I guess Pittsburgh needs to draft a QB. Does anybody remember us passing on 1st down ? I don't think we did all night. Most of the time when Quinn threw it was 3rd and long. Everyone knew he was gonna throw and were ready. This Daboll guy has to go.And yeah, Quinn does look inacruate.

I am a Quinn supporter. It's hard NOT to like the work ethic and presentation. He handle's himself well and seems to know the system like the back of his hand... That said. He's not as accurate as he needs to be and always seems to throw from some wierd position. I want three things.
1. Get someone to evaulate his drop back, throwing motion and mechanics from start to stop this off season. And quit lifting weights.
2. Allow him to fake a handoff ONCE in awhile and throw on first or 2nd down. Take a bigger drop and set before releasing. He always seems to be in a hurry with those 2 and 3 shuffle steps.
3. Make Daboll watch a GB game to learn how to run a slant pattern in a game over and over with sucess then teach it to the Offense. OR get rid of him and let someone else do it.

I think all the above will give Brady the greatest chance to improve. And yes.. he CAN improve. I use to miss placement on tennis ball serves, wiff on hitting a baseball and shot a 5 out of 25 when shooting skeet. I watched other people, got more/new instruction and was being called a "machine" the last time I went 100 for 100 in registered skeet.

Don't give up too soon is all I ask. If he stays the same next year then move on while we develop the rest of the team.

Quinn has showed me enough to keep him around for a few more years at least. He is good enough to leave in there until we fix other more important positions. Troy Polamalu being injured is showing how important he is to the Steelers defense. I think Ed Reed is equally important to the Ravens. We need a stud safety and there should be one available to the Browns in the first round.

I need to clarify what I said...

When I meant that we DON'T need to take a QB in the draft this year, I wanted to highlight the play of our defense, ST's, and running game. I'm of the opinion that we should boost all other aspects of our team and ONLY then do we plug in a drafted QB.

I think last night's game is a prime example of that concept. In no way can you use that game as an argument for Quinn being "the man" (or even that he's improving). You CAN say that we can just hang onto Quinn and build around him until we're ready to bring in "the guy".

I say we retroactively name Cribbs the starting QB and give him the W.

Actually the deep throw out of bounds....again. And the throw to Royal on a 3 yard out on 3rd and Goal from the 13, pissed me off.

I don't think he played well but....

The 40mph gusting winds didn't help
The conservative playcalling didn't help
The cold makes that ball harder and more slippery, which didn't help

I do appreciate that he didn't turn the ball over though. He never gave the Steelers a short field. And that, coupled with a strong running game, can win you some games.

Now I want him to do better than last night. Let's hope he continues his growth at the position.