|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
Quote:
Quote:
He's 0-2 with people he's hired, his football operations and his non-football operations are a joke. All he has are deep pockets
Geez,, you young kids crack me up,, I want it now,, I want instant gratification, I don't want to wait.. GEEZ...
Art Rooney was 1 for 8.. The one winner was Noll...
Please do not include me with Ammo, as I do not want Lerner gone.
I understand the importance of a billion dollar Cleveland owner.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030 |
I agree with you in that I don't want Lerner gone. However, when we haven't seen a bit of progress this decade I can understand people starting to get a little impatient...........there's a balance in their somewhere.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
I understand the importance of a billion dollar Cleveland owner.
I was really speaking about Ammo only,, sorry if I offended you man..
Yeah, there isn't a billionaire around every corner.. some folks on here don't see to understand that...,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
However, when we haven't seen a bit of progress this decade I can understand people starting to get a little impatient
Randy hasn't owned the team for a decade.. he's actually only operated the team since his father death.. what's that been, 6 years now..
But I'd like for someone to give me a reasonable alternative to Lerner..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
Quote:
The Owners know that the reason they are so damn successful is, in part, because of the relationship they share (and the revenue as well)
And banks know that giving out sub-prime mortgages to unqualified buyers would cause the banking industry to collapse 
I could list 40 of those (and so could you). Just because it's a bad idea doomed to failure doesn't mean it can't happen.
When people get greedy they believe and see what they want to.
And the owners are not all equal. Some carry more weight than others (Jones, Snyder, Mara). Some are old and not very active( Wilson, Benson). Some are borderline looney(Al Davis). Others are kids that inherited the team from their Dad (Hunt, Lerner).
The NFL owners are most definitely not equals. If you have a dozen bigger market teams that feel MLB has a better plan they only need to pull five others over for a majority.
If it happens, it would be like losing out team all over again. (but the owners didn't really have a problem with it the first time, did they?).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465 |
Quote:
I dunno Daman, I've heard more people this year say they're done with this team and are becoming Steelers fans.
I have to question your choice of friends. Is loyalty an important asset to you when you choose friends? In 32 years of existance, I never had a friend or ever knew a football fan, that went from being a Browns fan to a Steelers fan.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Quote:
Quote:
I dunno Daman, I've heard more people this year say they're done with this team and are becoming Steelers fans.
I have to question your choice of friends. Is loyalty an important asset to you when you choose friends? In 32 years of existance, I never had a friend or ever knew a football fan, that went from being a Browns fan to a Steelers fan.
The idea of being able to do that is just so foreign to me, I can't fathom it, even slightly. Some 44 years into being a Browns fan, existing in a sea of Cowboy fans and at the end of the day if they suck or are playing for the AFC championship, I'm rooting for the Browns.
The Browns don't need bandwagon fans like that.
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,109
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,109 |
I can't even fathom it and I'm only 16. No real fan or person of any character would do that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030 |
There isn't one, and Lerner is not a bad owner. You act like that people are being impatient wanting a winning team..........dude it's been 50 years. Heck I'm 36, and the glory years are when I got my balls handed to me in the Denver games...lol. Since rebirth we've been inept. Your right that Randy has only been at the helm for 6 years, but he hasn't been able to get the right people to lead the organization either.......and this last time was an utter disaster considering we have already fired our GM 6 months into it, and the HC is a dead man walking. Most of the people who are concerned after this recent debacle are not suggesting that Randy sell the team, but rather stating the obvious........the guy has made bad hires. I think most just feel he needs to get someone in here who can help him set up an organization that wasn't done properly at rebirth, and that wasn't properly corrected since he's taken over. The good news is he has seen the need of this, and will reportedly sign someone this off season to take on the role...............let's just hope it's not another wonder kid scout. 
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
Quote:
Quote:
I dunno Daman, I've heard more people this year say they're done with this team and are becoming Steelers fans.
I have to question your choice of friends. Is loyalty an important asset to you when you choose friends? In 32 years of existance, I never had a friend or ever knew a football fan, that went from being a Browns fan to a Steelers fan.
I never said they were my friends.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 901
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 901 |
nrtu
Getting rid of revenue sharing would help ruin football. Maybe it wouldn't end up like baseball, but that would suck if it did. Even now I have hopes as a Browns fan that we can get competitive in a couple years or even lucky sooner ( with current cap rules/contracts/framework). As a fan of the Browns, and the NFL this current uncertainty of the collective bargaining agreement.........well I'm scared as a fan. If the NFL throws out ALL the rules and teams and fans have to just like losers..........how will that help football?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,858
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,858 |
This is just a positioning move to get things moving with the CBA. It is a logical move to toss uncertainty into the bargaining positions.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
And banks know that giving out sub-prime mortgages to unqualified buyers would cause the banking industry to collapse
LOL Yeah,, The difference here is that, given thier track record, the NFL is smarter than most banks.... 
Quote:
I could list 40 of those (and so could you). Just because it's a bad idea doomed to failure doesn't mean it can't happen.
And pigs might learn to fly..  Anything can happen.. Just doesn't make sense...
Quote:
And the owners are not all equal. Some carry more weight than others (Jones, Snyder, Mara). Some are old and not very active( Wilson, Benson). Some are borderline looney(Al Davis). Others are kids that inherited the team from their Dad (Hunt, Lerner).
I think you missed my point Gift.. there are more small market teams than there are large market teams. But each has a vote worth 1/32. Big or small, they each have an equal vote.
What makes you believe, no matter how influencial that Jones is, that he can sway a small market team to ratify a rule that would lower thier income and increase his? See where I"m going with this?
Quote:
If it happens, it would be like losing out team all over again. (but the owners didn't really have a problem with it the first time, did they?).
Personally, I think the NFL had a huge problem with Modell moving the team. I believe that's the reason we have a team now. Look at Baltimore.. took them over ten years to get a team.. LA is still without a team.
I actually think the NFL cared a great deal for Cleveland..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
You act like that people are being impatient wanting a winning team..........dude it's been 50 years
Dude,, it's been fifty years since we've been good enough to win a championship, but it's been 20 years since we had a good team.. (yeah, I'm with you on the denver thing...)
These last ten years have been frustrating. horrible for Browns fans. I get that. hell, I feel that. Just like you and everyone else. But I'm able to comparmentalize things I guess. I don't look at it like everyone else does.
I've viewed every change as a effort to improve. Sometimes, as in the case of Davis, we saw a spark of something positive. Or in the 10-7 season when it appeared that we had done some positive things and maybe we could step up and move forward.
In both cases, they were illusions. Neither, as it turns out, were real growth. Just illusions.
I view this next regime change as needed. It's needed because Randy picked the wrong guys. He may do it again before he finds his "Chuck Noll" or "Bill Parcells".
But as long as he's smart enough to recognize an error and then move to fix it, I can't think of any more he could do.
I don't think there is even one owner, past or present, that hasn't made an hiring mistake.. not one.. Look at the teams that are unbeaten this year. New Orleans has make a ton of mistakes... Indy, before they hired Dungy, the mistakes were all over the place. Even the Ravens before Billick,, And who was in charge back then.. Ozzie.
I just think that it's crazy for anyone to condem the owner for making mistakes.. Condem him when he doesn't see the problem or sees it and doesn't fix it. That has not been the case with Randy.
JMO.. But I'm sticking to it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
Daman, you don't think the fact that I haven't seen a single good Browns team in my lifetime factors into my impatience?
I was too young to understand football in 1994 and from what I remember we weren't a dominant team because people hated Testaverde for generally sucking.
2002 was probably the biggest mirage of all time. We lucked into the playoffs that year.
2007 was the closest thing to a good team and we feasted on inferior teams (how I'd LOVE to do that these days!)
But we've had no truly dominant team since I was in diapers. I think I'm allowed to be impatient. Sometimes I wonder why I'm a Browns fan, then I pop in my History of the Browns DVD and I feel better.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Daman, you don't think the fact that I haven't seen a single good Browns team in my lifetime factors into my impatience?
You could have been born a Lions fan.  
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
Daman, you don't think the fact that I haven't seen a single good Browns team in my lifetime factors into my impatience?
I'm sure it does Ammo,, I'm just saying I think you aren't looking at it in a reasonable fashion. you want it now.., hell, so do I, but I recognize that it takes time and some of that time has been mispent. I just refuse to cry over spilt milk.. Time to move on, maybe this next regime will get it right.. Dunno..
Quote:
I was too young to understand football in 1994 and from what I remember we weren't a dominant team because people hated Testaverde for generally sucking.
In 1964 when the Browns last won a Championship, I was 12 years old.. So what?
IN 1994 it wasn't so much that folks hated Testiverde.. it was that he Replaced Kosar.. The fans didn't like Belichick either with his Metcalf up the middle plays.
2004 and 2007 were illusions. Some (like me) fell for them because I wanted to believe so badly, it clouded my judgement. I should have realized in 2004 that we were in a downward spiral because of the CAP problems that were ahead.. And in 2007 I should have placed more belief in we won because we had a weak schedule..
I wanted to believe so badly that I let the wins in those years blind me.. I'm not alone... lots of us did that very same thing.. Guys like Peen, Attack, Toad and yeah, even Diam tried to tell us (me) but I wasn't having any of that.. my team was winning and that's all that mattered..
I'm such a homer, I'll probably fall for it again...
You wanna talk patience,, Try waiting since 1964 to see a REAL winner..
Quote:
Sometimes I wonder why I'm a Browns fan
If you gotta wonder, Then maybe you aren't? Just saying...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 647
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 647 |
good posts ammo and damanshot.
In '94 the Browns were a very, very good team. They won on defense like the '02 team won on offense. The problem was that they were built for the NFC and weren't built to last--when Ozzie got Ogden and Lewis pieces started coming together for what was the Ravens title run.
Everyone complains about Metcalf up the Middle but forgets that the Giants did the EXACT same thing from '81-93 with Meggett, Morris, Rouson, etc. as a changeup from Ottis Anderson.
I was lucky enough to witness the Belichick era. And while I was young and barely understood football then, as I got older I appreciated what he was trying to do in Cleveland. He was making the team compatible for the '90s instead of relying on '80s glory and a few smurf and possession WRs (Langhorne, Brennan, Slaughter, etc.)...BB wanted a team that could score downfield--hence Derrick Alexander, Keenan McCardell, Carrier, etc.
I'd take Vinny over an aging Kosar any day. Not Kosar in his prime, of course. BB made the correct decision to release BK, but he did it two weeks too early.
No, we didn't beat Pgh in '94; it might just be that the Steelers were more talented that year anyways. The team in '94-95 (fifth grade) was a far cry from what it was in '90-91 (first grade).
The team was rebuilt properly and was on the right track. We beat Dallas and Philly that year...two excellent teams, along with the 10-6 Patriots. We beat the Patriots twice actually.
Go Browns!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Not Kosar in his prime, of course. BB made the correct decision to release BK, but he did it two weeks too early.
He absolutely did not.
I'm a realist...but that's a guy you don't cut...and if you do, it's after you've offered a paycut, followed by an 'option' to retire.
BB cut him out of spite...it was a youthful mistake. Benching is one thing. What he did...entirely different. It was a blatant middle finger...BB has always had that in him. It's just less pathetic these days because he's a proven winner.
But he'll always be a sour, bitter loser (and I like and admire BB).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
Everyone complains about Metcalf up the Middle but forgets that the Giants did the EXACT same thing from '81-93 with Meggett, Morris, Rouson, etc. as a changeup from Ottis Anderson.
'I suppose so but please go back and look at the lines of those two teams.. tell me if the Browns Oline stacks up to the Giants Oline... It won't.
As for Kosar, as Phil has already explained.. it was a spiteful move by Belichick,, not a good football decision,, just for spite.
Kosar reportedly didn't like the Offensive calls.. He was shackled by that pathitic offensive (NFC Style) plan that Belicheck wanted.
Cutting Kosar was the beginning of the end for the Browns in Cleveland under Modell.. I still say that's the day the fans turned on the Browns under modell.. But that's a discussion for another day.
Ya know, it's funny, Kosar said in a article sometime back about 2 years or more ago that he and Belichick shook hands and let bygones be bygones.. Belichick apparently acknowledged that he made a mistake cutting Kosar the way he did.
Funny bit of history.. Kosar was cut on a Monday.. by Wednesday that week, he was signed and on the Cowboy practice field..
On Sunday, in Cleveland, one network had the Cowboys game playing and on the other network, they had the Browns against the Seahawks I think...
TV Viewership was overwhelmingly in favor of the Cowboys game.. LOL Cracks me up..
I think it was Jason Garrett that started that game, but Kosar came in quickly,,, First thing he did was throw an 80 TD to either Irvin or someone else..
I remember the announcer saying,,,, "Yeah,, he has diminshed skills alright" and then the announcers both chuckled... that was a funny thing.,
In many ways, that sealed Belichicks fate as the Browns coach..
It's impossible to defend Belichick on that score Asian... Impossible... He blew it big time.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
don't forget that Kosar has the game-winning play in the Superbowl too 
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
don't forget that Kosar has the game-winning play in the Superbowl too
LOL Didn't he Kneel down?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
don't forget that Kosar has the game-winning play in the Superbowl too
LOL Didn't he Kneel down?
Yes, and that kneel down was the final play. Thus, the game winning play of the Superbowl. I still say he was robbed of that Superbowl MVP Award
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,975
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,975 |
Actually, there were reports that Kosar took a swing at Belichick. (and may have even connected) That made his release a necessity.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
I remember those reports, not sure, but I think they were later debunked...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,593
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,593 |
Quote:
Quote:
Why would the Owners want to discontinue the Revenue Sharing? Doesn't that help out teams by giving them the 100 Million?
I'll admit, I'm not too familiar with it, but I think I've heard the basics.
I'm fairly certain that the NFL owners are tired of paying for the Jacksonville franchise that has not produced attendance.
This is a bad thing for teams that do not have a rabid following. It means nothing for the Browns, IMO, though.
I disagree. Revenue sharing comes in many form above and beyond ticket sales....merchandise sales as an example.
I think it is a move by the league to wake up the union because without shared revenue, you could see a contraction of the league by a few teams....which means 120 player jobs.
As for the Browns, we are probably a middle third team in the way of revenue...but probably closer the the bottom of that third then the top.
If the owners are talking a total dropping of the system which includes TV money, then the Browns do have a problem and we are headed towards a MLB deal where 4-5 teams will have all the cash, and once you have that, you will see a real push by those teams to drop the cap as well.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069 |
Quote:
In 1964 when the Browns last won a Championship, I was 12 years old.. So what?
IN 1994 it wasn't so much that folks hated Testiverde.. it was that he Replaced Kosar.. The fans didn't like Belichick either with his Metcalf up the middle plays.
2004 and 2007 were illusions. Some (like me) fell for them because I wanted to believe so badly, it clouded my judgement. I should have realized in 2004 that we were in a downward spiral because of the CAP problems that were ahead.. And in 2007 I should have placed more belief in we won because we had a weak schedule..
I wanted to believe so badly that I let the wins in those years blind me.. I'm not alone... lots of us did that very same thing.. Guys like Peen, Attack, Toad and yeah, even Diam tried to tell us (me) but I wasn't having any of that.. my team was winning and that's all that mattered..
I'm such a homer, I'll probably fall for it again...
You wanna talk patience,, Try waiting since 1964 to see a REAL winner..
Sometimes I wonder why I'm a Browns fan
Hear ya.
I became a die hard, screaming at the TV, nutbar when I was 10. "66" -- two years after the fact. Still have an ol' Duke football, here in my classroom. Leroy Kelly, Erich Barnes, Snidow, Hickerson, Frank Ryan, Bill Nelsen's names are all on it.
Unlike many of you guys I am not on the Lerner bandwagon.
I do not credit his Dad for bringing football back to Cleveland. I believe the NFL had to bring football back to the city that was leading the NFL in attendance when the Rat sold us out.
I do not credit his Dad for being some sort of football Mother Theresa, like some of you guys. His Dad made billions tying middle class people into economic slavery. That's my take. Sorry.
I do not think he is a good owner, or even a competent one. I think he is a boy with a toy and I want him to give it up to a grown man. I want an owner that has a heart for Cleveland and for football. And, if you say he has a heart for either...
I disagree with you!
Now, let me have it.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936 |
Quote:
As for the Browns, we are probably a middle third team in the way of revenue...but probably closer the the bottom of that third then the top.
Surprisingly enough, the Browns are 12th in the league where revenue is concerned (almost in the upper third). However, we have lost a little ground over the last five years. IIRC, we were a top 10 team as of 2004 (6th, I think).
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,593
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,593 |
OK....upper middle third.
Take away shared revenue and I wonder where it goes??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Unlike many of you guys I am not on the Lerner bandwagon.
LOL, I didn't know there was a bandwagon for owners.
He owns the team, like it or not, there's not anything any of us can do about it unless you got an extra billion to buy him out.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
I can't answer your questions about shared revenue and where it would leave the browns if it went away, but certainly, it would hurt them... Here is the Forbes site that it very interesting: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/30/sportsmoney_nfl08_NFL-Team-Valuations_Value.htmlKeep in mind, this is for 2008 and there may have been drops in 2009 given the economy.. Not at all sure about that. If you click on the heading you will see where they are depending on what you want to look for. For instance, Click on the heading: Current Value ($mil) and you will see that the value of the Browns in 2008 was 1,035 Billion.. That ranking was 15th according to this chart. If you click on Revenue, you will see the Browns again ranking 15th at 220 Million. If you look at Debt/Value % the browns appear to be in Excellent financial shape. Not sure how objective any of this is,, but we're basically pretty much in the middle of the pack... I have been saying since this thread opened that this is like a gun to the head of the union and all the teams are trying to do is get a better deal for themselves.. Looking at these numbers, I can't say I blame them at all.. A man like Al Lerner goes out and puts up 530 mill for what basically is 20 mill profit a year.. wow.. The real value is in the worth of the team.. there he seems to have done very well.. Over 400 million of growth in 10 years...... Not bad.. What is interesting about that is this.. We are ahead of Pittsburgh in every financial statistical view. We are valued at more, our debt is lower, or Revenue is higher and profie number is more than double thiers.. And they've won 2 superbowls in the last 10 years.. That basically is saying that dispite losing, we are worth more than a winner..... I take back what I said about the value of a winner vs a loser.. it appears the Browns are worth more than the Steelers and we've been losers for the last 10 years.. Take that MAC
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
I do not credit his Dad for bringing football back to Cleveland. I believe the NFL had to bring football back to the city that was leading the NFL in attendance when the Rat sold us out.
I don't know if we were leading the league in attendance, but I do agree that poppa Lerner shouldn't get any credit in that regard. If it wasn't Lerner it would have been someone else.
It's kinda like all the school books that give credit to Christopher Columbus for discovering America. He didn't. He was just the most visible in history so he got the cred.
Quote:
I do not think he is a good owner, or even a competent one. I think he is a boy with a toy and I want him to give it up to a grown man. I want an owner that has a heart for Cleveland and for football. And, if you say he has a heart for either...
He hasn't been a good owner in terms of who he has repeatedly selected to call the shots on the field. That's a given. BUT, your take that he doesn't care about Cleveland football is an old argument that has been debunked this season.
People spoke loudly that he loved soccer more than football, and that they wanted an owner who had a passion and desire to win. That was a FLAWED opinion based on the fact that they never saw Lerner on TV. That has been his choice for years, so fans took it the wrong way.
All an owner REALLY needs to do is have the desire to win AND the willingness to spend the money to win. Of course putting the right people in place is important, but that is NOT in the same context of your point about desire to win. To that end, Lerner has spent MILLIONS in salaries to people like Davis and Savage and Crennel and now Kokinis...........all from the desire to win.
You're a season late with that argument. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,593
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,593 |
Quote:
A man like Al Lerner goes out and puts up 530 mill for what basically is 20 mill profit a year.
Not sure how you arrive at that figure?? Operating income doesn't equate to profit.
And when you think about it, even if it is 20 mil...that is a pretty low ROI all things considered....not even 5%.
With that kind of money, you could find a bank in this low interest climate to pay you nearly 5%.
People get all uptight over what owners might make. Well, they are going to make staggering sums just parking it in the bank, take no risk, and won't have thousands of people calling them names.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
Not sure how you arrive at that figure?? Operating income doesn't equate to profit.
Well, it says that on the link I put up.. Revenue 220 Million and Operating Income 19.3 million. I rounded off to 20 Mill... What I don't know is if that's Gross or net.. Either way, not a lot of money..
The real growth for Lerner came from the Value of the Franchise. He paid 530 million and Forbes says it's worth 1,035 Billion.. If that is accurate (and I have no idea if it is) Over 400 million gross increase in value. Not bad in 10 years...
Add that to whatever the true annual income is and it could be a tidy some of money.. Could even be more than you could get from other investments.. and probably a bit more secure...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
Just the owners showing their muscle...we have to keep the Labor Union Broken like it was after the Scab games...Broken but the Owners have been fair with the CBA.
They must stand fast and keep the UNION Broken not because of the Players...but because of the "AGENTS" once they get their mitts on the NFL...kiss the league good bye!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069 |
Quote:
I do not think he is a good owner, or even a competent one. I think he is a boy with a toy and I want him to give it up to a grown man. I want an owner that has a heart for Cleveland and for football. And, if you say he has a heart for either...
Quote:
He hasn't been a good owner in terms of who he has repeatedly selected to call the shots on the field. That's a given. BUT, your take that he doesn't care about Cleveland football is an old argument that has been debunked this season.
Please explain.
Quote:
People spoke loudly that he loved soccer more than football, and that they wanted an owner who had a passion and desire to win. That was a FLAWED opinion based on the fact that they never saw Lerner on TV. That has been his choice for years, so fans took it the wrong way.
My beliefs have nothing to do with his ownership of Aston Villa. I wish him the best with all his enterprises.
My beef is that he is an absentee owner. that he makes very uneducated, poor decisions. That he doesn't know what he's doing. That he's not qualified to run any organization. That he SEEMINGLY doesn't manage his business in anyway. The model is clear, Lerner, Huzienga, absentee billionaire owners run their franchises into the ground. Even Bidwell (Bidwell for # *%**'s sake!) have gotten their act together and produced a football organization that is far suprerior to ours). Look at the Super Bowl and you will see owner after owner (with the possible exception of Paul Allen) who are there and are visable. Do you want me to list them?
Quote:
All an owner REALLY needs to do is have the desire to win AND the willingness to spend the money to win.
You're a sharp cat, but I disagree with you on this one. I hope a few others will man up and call you on it as well.
Quote:
Of course putting the right people in place is important, but that is NOT in the same context of your point about desire to win. To that end, Lerner has spent MILLIONS in salaries to people like Davis and Savage and Crennel and now Kokinis...........all from the desire to win.
Or, to avoid problems?
Or, to avoid putting in the necessary work/effort.
Or, to hide his deficiences?
Throwing money at a problem doesn't seem to work as often as we all think it should.
Quote:
You're a season late with that argument.
And, I will be years late with it until he sells to someone who does more than act like he gives a damn.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
He hasn't been a good owner in terms of who he has repeatedly selected to call the shots on the field. That's a given. BUT, your take that he doesn't care about Cleveland football is an old argument that has been debunked this season.
Please explain.
Camera's have never shown him sitting in the box or wandering the sidelines during practices. That led fans to believe he was, as you described, an "absentee owner." Since then, it's been proven that he is on the sidelines, and Mangini noted in an interview that he talks to Lerner every day.
I would expect many around here to speak on this topic.
Quote:
All an owner REALLY needs to do is have the desire to win AND the willingness to spend the money to win.
You're a sharp cat, but I disagree with you on this one. I hope a few others will man up and call you on it as well.
Feel free to disagree, but keep in mind that the flagship franchise of the NFL over the last decade has been the Pats. Robert Kraft calls absolutely zero shots for that organization, but he IS willing to spend whatever it takes to win.
So, if an owner is willing to let football people make the football decisions, all that's necessary is the owner has the desire to win and the willingness to spend the money.
Previous to his proclamation about hiring a Czar, I DIDN'T say this about him, because he thought he was qualified to make football decisions. Now that he finally understands he doesn't have the ability to make those decisions, he becomes the perfect owner.
Quote:
Of course putting the right people in place is important, but that is NOT in the same context of your point about desire to win. To that end, Lerner has spent MILLIONS in salaries to people like Davis and Savage and Crennel and now Kokinis...........all from the desire to win.
Or, to avoid problems?
Or, to avoid putting in the necessary work/effort.
Or, to hide his deficiences?
He's going to blow some $40 million dollars just to hide from problems, to keep from working, or to cover up his lack of ability? 
Sorry, but that makes no sense.
He isn't a mock-owner who is just going through the motions, and is so scared of being exposed that he's willing to throw away millions upon millions of dollars. If he truly didn't care as you say, he wouldn't have bothered to go through the PR stunt of having the Frye-Guys to the complex for lunch. He wouldn't bother hiring a Czar to run the football operations. That would simply be extra work, and since, according to your statements, he isn't interested in putting in the work, that also makes little sense.
Sorry man, but during the first half of this year, even those on this board who were the most vocally opposed to Lerner have acknowledged the perception wasn't quite accurate. What you're saying was the mantra around here for the past several years, but no longer.
Take the time and use Google, search for Lerner quotes and actions. If you've an open mind to the possibility you could be mistaken, you'll see that Lerner isn't what you believe him to be.
He's been a big failure in terms of choosing the football people to put coaches and players on the field, but it's not because he doesn't care or isn't around.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069 |
Quote:
Quote:
Feel free to disagree, but keep in mind that the flagship franchise of the NFL over the last decade has been the Pats. Robert Kraft calls absolutely zero shots for that organization, but he IS willing to spend whatever it takes to win.
Kraft does call shots. That's my point. Not player personnel ones, not X's and O's but Kraft does manage his billion dollar business in many areas. Rooney showed up to work everyday until he became ambassador. Lurie manages his business. Debartolo managed his business. Richardson, Irsay's Kid, Bidwell's kid, they all manage their business. The people DeBartolo had to give his team to manage it (poorly, but still better than us). They may not call any of the football shots but they are there.
AND IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!
The infamous "I just want to be able to purchase some of the grocerys" suggests that Kraft is more than a just an absentee, Lerner/Huzienga type, phone it in owner.
Randy is THE problem. Outside of him getting a football stud who still has a lot of gas in the tank, he will continue to be. As with Parcells in Miami, the Czar thing might work. Maybe.
Toad, what is your first thought if the media announce that Floyd Reese is our new football Czar? The first thought that crosses your mind?
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,943
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,943 |
j/c
Unions helped this country for a long time. Then they hurt this country, in a big way, what with the "can't fire me, pay me more, I don't care how the company is doing since I have a contract, give me lifetime benefits for 25 years of work" crap.
Without a guy willing to put up close to a billion dollars for a franchise, the league is nothing. Without someone/group in the wings waiting to buy/pay a billioin dollars, the league is nothing.
The players ought to realize how good they have it and deal with it.
Where else are they going to go and make the kind of money they do playing football? Here's a clue: No where. And most of the idiots are broke within 2 to 4 years of retiring/quitting/getting cut.
Pay me $350,000 a year for 4 years........my ass ain't working again. Why? Because I won't be buying 2 or 3 homes, getting 2 new cars a year, spending $10,000 for a bottle of booze........living the high life.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum NFL to end revenue sharing...
|
|
