DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren - Part III

Post deleted by Referee2

Oh, I'm not saying whomever MH hires is a puppet....I didn't word that right. Some could consider them puppets since he's hiring his guys to run his philosophy with him looking over their shoulders. As long as he hires people that want to work for him and MH can accept their feedback, it will be a good fit for us. We need a football brain at the top making all the decisions and keeping everything in line.

I hate to be the guy who says this. If holmgren fails and this team does continue to suck would Lerner sell the team?

We really are puting all of our faith in Holmgrens hands at this point and theirs no turning back now.

If Holmgren fails, then I honestly don't know what to do.

You'd have gone every route possible and failed at every route.

I guess everyone has their own opinion. Can't say I agree with what you just said.

Randy Lerner just hired a guy to make all those decisions which you are whining about. He now will just hand out the checks. Holmgren will get this organization on the same page, and I don't think this means hacking the whole staff in place. Depending on how these guys finish the season, they may decide their own fate.

Right now, I've seen progress the last month. As long as we don't look back, they could earn their way to 2010.

Possibly the the biggest pile of do do I've seen written here..

Amazing..

Unbelievable.. Still with the England references.. Geesh...

JC

Well, lets see what he does. I can't wait.. Lets go Browns!

The Browns gained some credibility today.

There is a lot of work for President Holmgren to do. He'll need to bring in someone to coordinate scouting for the April draft. He will probably want a pro personnel guy/GM to prepare for free agency. He'll need to evaluate the coaches and decide who stays, who goes, and who new to bring in. Then, in conjunction with his GM and coaches, decide what current Browns players fit into his system for 2010 and beyond. And he's got about two months to get this all in place before the offseason hoopla begins in earnest.

It's a massive job and I look forward to a professional football man taking the role. I think it's a good day to be a Browns fan.

I'm glad to have Holmgren in Cleveland.I honestly see him hiring a scouting guru as our GM. The GM/scouting guru would put together the tapes, rankings...etc and Holmgren would most likely have the final say on draft day...etc

Who knows honestly. However, like always I am excited about the off-season.

Welcome to Cleveland MH ..... now get to work

In order to buy into what RL has just done you have to ignore everything he has done up until now.

You have to forget that less then a year ago he did this very same thing.

If he was wrong wrong wrong then how is it that he got it right this time?

If I don’t buy in it’s because to this point in time nothing RL has ever done was the right thing at the right time. Had he made this move a year ago then hell yeah I would be on board 100%, but not now not when the coach he did hire a year ago gutted the team, and finally is beginning to get the train back on the tracks.

Instead of moving forward with the program that was instituted less then a year ago RL pulls the rug out from under the whole thing. If Holmgren doesn’t get this train rolling down the tracks like NOW will RL fire him too in less then a year?

No way did Holmgren accept this job without total control. He is in fact RL without RL. But that’s not a bad thing in fact it’s a good thing except this time will have a meddling owner.

I strongly believe in the direction this team was headed in; a blue collar team in a blue collar town, a perfect fit. A team not built on stars but on players that play hard, work hard and together. Now we have tossed that all up in the air for what? More rebuilding!!

After a season of biting the bullet and straightening out the cap and the draft. Now when all the dirty work has been done and we are set to move in another direction we ditch the guy that straightened it out for the next pretty face. No sorry I cannot endorse stupidity. This time RL you have outdone yourself. I feel sorry for us will be the ones that suffer for your stupidity…..

Me, I’m going to start getting my shopping list together for next seasons pretty face……

IMO the Browns are NO MORE THAN two drafts and three free agency periods away from a contending team, IF good decisions are made.

The $62K question: Is Holmgren going to make those good decisions.

Those decisions include stability and competence at the top end, impeccable talent evaluation and choosing an on-field scheme and sticking to it.

Mangini has left Holmgren with 11 draft picks, alot of cap room and some young players that can develop.

Maybe Holmgren looked at the situation and saw possibilities.

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Remember, despite it all, his business has continued to increase in value.

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Not only did it increase in value, it continues to make money on a year to year basis.. He'll reload..

Man, where in THE hell did all of this doom and gloom come from...

For the first time since the rebirth, we have a TRUE professional coming in here and yet,, some still think the sky is falling.....

jc

I'm no big Homgren fan but he was probably the bets we could do, so for that

I'm still not sure about his talent evaluation and draft skills but I'll give him a chance....

He gets a free pass on his 1st year if he fires Mangini though and 2 if he cuts/trades Quinn too

Mangini should be gone....he was "done" when Lerner said he wanted a "credible" leader of this org...what does that imply?

WOW,, man hasn't started yet and already with the time limits

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He gets a free pass on his 1st year if he fires Mangini though and 2 if he cuts/trades Quinn too

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OK,, let me throw this out there.. What if he keeps Mangini, Hires a guy to tutor Quinn and we go on to win a Superbowl....

Would that shut you up about Quinn

For what it's worth, I agree with you.

We keep changing course every couple of years .... sometimes by necessity and sonetimes by desire ..... and nothing ever gets accomplished.

I knwo that the NFL is increasingly becoming a league of "win now or else" ..... but no one ever seems to get a chance to build their program when taking over a really bad team. Mangini certainly didn't.

Oh well .. I hope against hope that Holmgren does the job ..... because now there truly is no one else .........

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In order to buy into what RL has just done you have to ignore everything he has done up until now.

If your goal as a Browns fan, is to target Randy Lerner, you are not going to ignore anything he has done in the past.

You have to forget that less then a year ago he did this very same thing.

Again, if your goal as a Browns fan, is to target Randy Lerner, you are not going to ignore anything he has done in the past.


If he was wrong wrong wrong then how is it that he got it right this time?

A smart man knows what he knows....a wise man knows what he does not know....

Randy Lerner looked at himself and realized he was part of the problem when it came to the success of the Browns.

Lerner thought he could hire experienced coaches such as Crennel and hire a young GM such as Savage, and it would lead to long term success...he was wrong.

To Lerner's credit, he did give Crennel and Savage 4 yrs. IMO, he may have pulled "that trigger" a little too soon, but "me" not knowing everything that went on behind the scenes, who am I to judge?

Lerner attempted to fix his team his way and quickly hired Mangini and waited to hire Kokinis, knowing that was the guy Mangini said he could work with, because they knew each other and had worked with each other doing charity work.

Lerner was wrong again...Mangini and Kokinis did not work well together and Kokinis was fired half way through the season.

On the football field, the Browns were the joke of the NFL.

It all came to head during the Bears game when Lerner, uncharacteristically, went down on the field before the half and waited at the tunnel and glared at his team as they went to the locker room.

JMO, but I believe Lerner was just as angry at himself and his decisions as he was at his coach and team. The second half of the Bears game was not any better than the first and Kokinis was fire the next day.

I believe Randy Lerner took a good look at himself at that point, and realized he may not be a good judge of football talent, as in GMs and HCs. Lerner had said before, he did not want to be the front of the franchise, but an owner who stays in the background leaving it to others to run his team.

Some may not realize this but Randy's dad, Al Lerner, was not a hands on football owner either. Randy's dad hired someone to run his team for him, while he took care those things he was good at, such as business. Al Lerner was a tremendous fan of Browns football though and wanted to do all he could to support his franchise.

I read somewhere that Al Lerner knew what he knew, knew what he was good at and being a man of means, he knew he needed to hire someone to run his football franchise.

At that time, Al Lerner went after the most successful football manager in the business, Carmen Policy, and he did what he had to do to secure him to run his franchise.

JMO, but I believe Randy Lerner did have a heart to heart with himself (maybe after the Chicago game) and asked...what would Dad do. Then Randy did what his father would have done...set out to find the best possible candidate to run the his franchise.

Now know one can guarantee that Randy will be successful with the move of hiring Holmgren to run the Browns for him. But you can never claim that Randy Lerner has done all he could to bring success to this franchise.

A smart man knows what he knows...A wise man knows what he does not know....

Stop complaining about Lerner...he's done running the Browns.

Give Holmgren a couple years, then judge him on his body of work.

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WOW,, I thought that post of yours before this one was a pile of Do Do.. this one is even worse..

YES....

YES, YES, YES...

Merry Christmas Browns fans...thank you Randy Lerner

I believe the Browns struck the right note in keeping the announcement low key, thus not raining on anyone parade and successes related to the Browns two game winning streak.

The part about finalizing the details does leave room for speculation but the main news here is, Mike Holmgren is a Cleveland Brown.

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I told everyone on page 3 it was done... LOL you guys crack me up

We could win the 2011, 2012, and 2014 Super Bowls and Django would be stating how we did it in spite of Mangini and Quinn and not because of them.

There you go Super...

It's funny.. as Browns fans, we've had very very little to be happy about over the last 20 or so years..

In the last three weeks, the team suddenly got competitive.. we Beat the Steelers, we beat KC and we landed perhaps the closest thing there is out there to a sure thing as the President of the club..

I know it's not the superbowl, But success starts with the first step.

Not sure what form it will take, but I suspect that Holmgren will come in and build a foundation for sustainability. From that, anything is possible...

I'm not jumping out of my skin with excitement.. yet, but I sure as hell am feeling better about the organization today then I did 3 weeks ago..

I think even the lerner detractors recognize the significance of this hire. But they think it's the same ole same ole. I can't understand or accept that thought process. It's kinda like, "we've failed before so we are bound to fail again" thinking.

I'm reminded of so many teams that failed, until they didn't.

Sometimes you need a little blind faith.. But, in this case, there is good reason to believe that Randy Lerner (who has failed thus far) may have hit the motherload..

Speaking of Lerner.. he's made mistakes.. there isn't a question about it. He didn't set out to fail, but fail he has.

The thing about Lerner is that he doesn't sit on his mistakes very long. Something goes bad, he wastes very little time getting into it.

But this time, fans were yelling for a top guy.. Cowher, Marty, Accorsi, Wolf and Kosar.. all the same names over and over again.. Lerner went for the biggest name of them all.. Holmgren! And got him.... (a side note, he didn't have to give up any ownership in the team to do it)

and to all of you out there that thought Lerner couldn't attract any top leadership talent, I have this to say, you were wrong.

Holmgren isn't an absolute sure thing.. But if you look around, he's about as close as you can get....

To those folks that think that the past dooms this organization to failure in the future,, I've got one thing to say to you all, Steelers... Losers for years, got it right,, haven't looked back since. Oh hell, let me give you one more,, Arizona Cardinals.. Absolute junk for years, got the right folks finally,, within two years, in the superbowl.

can that happen here.., you bet it can.. will it? Stay tuned...

Not going to throw any egg on this yet, but this is a step in the right direction.
The next step is to see who he brings in as GM and what he does with EM..actually thats the least of my worries right now since he has to answer to someone with authority over him..and he can't overthrow this in any way.

Hard to debate wishful thinking I'm not going there...

If we won a SB with Quinn...great, that's what I and everyboy on here wants: a Browns SB...I don't care if it's Quinn or Dilfer (the ultimate prrof that you can win it with a "doo doo" QB after all)...I would be here cheering with you guys about it

I just don't see it happening....get over it, it's just my opinion

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(a side note, he didn't have to give up any ownership in the team to do it)

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daman...a side note...

So you have seen the contract?

Nice try, but I always classified my idea with, "if" Lerner got into a bidding war with Paul Allen, for Holmgren's services, he should consider giving Holmgren something Allen may not be willing to give up, a minority stake in the franchise.

Paul Allen did not enter into a bidding war with Lerner and Holmgren is ours.

Randy did what it took and if it didn't take a percentage of the team, I'm happy about it. But don't forget the "IF" when you attempt to pat yourself on the back over that specific issue.

My glass is half full, with no exceptions...how about yours?...mac...

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and to all of you out there that thought Lerner couldn't attract any top leadership talent, I have this to say, you were wrong.

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daman...on this, some of the local radio talking heads said Lerner could not do it...WKNR talkies come to mind.

I remember listening to them two weeks ago, on a Sunday morning, and one of their announcers claiming Holmgren is not coming to Cleveland.

I had to ask myself it they were Browns fans...WKNR used to be a good Cleveland radio station...now those at KNR who made those comments look like idiots, IMO.

Just Clicking...

I hope it goes down like this but am doubtful it will as Holmgren has always run a 4-3 but it is yet to be determined...

Secretary: Alright Eric. Mike's ready for your 9:00 meeting.

(Walks into office of President Mike Holmgren)

MH: Hello, Eric. Go ahead and have a seat.

EM: Thanks, Mike for this fantastic opportunity to meet and discuss organizationally going forward with the proc-

MH: Thanks, Eric. That'll be all. Unfortunately I'm looking at the handling of the QB situation and difference in our overall coaching philosophy and just don't see this working between us. I'll write a glowing recommendation of the job you did here so you have a chance to land work afterwards, but no promises... NEXT.

(Eric leaves, very angry and embarrassed. Enter Daboll)

MH: Okay thanks, Brian. Clean out your office and be sure to leave the stapler on the desk. Next.

(Daboll leaves downtrodden, yet not surprised. Que in Rob Ryan. Sound of two beers being cracked open is heard.)

MH: You know, Rob. I've always been a 4-3 guy but I liked a few of the things you did on that side of the ball as far as attacking and intricate blitz packages. I brought in a GM who should be able to scout good players for the 3-4 and was wondering what kind of toys you would like to play with on that side of the ball?

One can hope, right?

Suggestions for Holmgren courtesy of everybody's buddy, Mike Florio . . .

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/...hten-out-browns

10-Pack: What Mike Holmgren needs to do to straighten out the Browns

Mike Florio
Tuesday, Dec. 22, 2009 - 12:03 a.m. ET

ProFootballTalk.com's Mike Florio weighs in on the Cleveland Browns hiring Mike Holmgren to be their new team president:

With Mike Holmgren joining the Browns as team president only a few days before Christmas, the man known by friend and foe alike as the "Big Show" has plenty of work to do.

So let's try to lighten the load a bit by putting together for him an initial to-do list. Here are 10 things Holmgren should get accomplished long after they paint his name onto the door:

1. Fire Eric Mangini.
After watching their team go 1-11 to start the season, Browns fans are feeling giddy after watching it earn back-to-back wins for the first time since Week 6 of the 2008 season. The victories have spawned a sense that coach Eric Mangini perhaps isn't so bad after all, that maybe he should get another year on the job.

He shouldn't.

Mangini has been horrible for Cleveland; he has created multiple distractions, and he has alienated players and their agents.

Owner Randy Lerner inexplicably chased Mangini in January, at a time when no one else wanted to hire the man who had just been fired by the Jets.

More important, Mangini has been running the show all year, and he likely won't be thrilled about taking a back seat to Holmgren. So Holmgren needs to make a change right away.

Besides, what if Mangini were to succeed in another season on the job? Holmgren then would be stuck with Mangini, and Mangini would surely take advantage of his newfound juice to accumulate as much power as possible.

So Holmgren needs to get rid of Mangini now.

2. Hire Mangini's replacement.
One obvious candidate is Jim Mora, who might be out in Seattle, depending on who the team's next general manager is.

If Holmgren hopes to have an active role in the Xs and Os, Jim Zorn makes sense, too. He has experience in the top job, and he'd surely defer to any guidance or suggestions Holmgren might make.

Of course, if Holmgren really wants to get involved, he can coach the team himself, something he has not yet ruled out.

3. Pay Josh Cribbs.
Receiver/kick returner Josh Cribbs genuinely believes owner Randy Lerner promised in December 2008 to address Cribbs' substandard contract, which runs through 2012 and which was signed before Cribbs became arguably the best player on the team.

Though the current regime has denied that any such promise was made, it has not denied that former GM Phil Savage promised to take care of Cribbs. That should count for something.

So Holmgren needs to show loyalty to a man who hasn't allowed his contractual situation to affect his play. If anything, he has played better.

On second thought, maybe they shouldn't give him a new deal.

4. Find a quarterback.
Every GM wants to hire his own coach, and every coach wants to land his own quarterback.

Not long after Holmgren arrived in Green Bay, GM Ron Wolf traded for Brett Favre. In Seattle, Holmgren the GM traded after the 2000 season for Matt Hasselbeck.

Holmgren first needs to evaluate the guys currently under contract. Maybe Derek Anderson or Brady Quinn is the answer. (Don't laugh. But you may chuckle.)

Next, Holmgren should look to free agency and/or the draft, along with trade possibilities.

Who knows? Maybe the Brett Favre unretirement tour ultimately will end in a reunion with Holmgren.

5. Trade Jerome Harrison.
On the surface, the notion of trading a guy who rushed for 286 yards on Sunday is laughable. But it's important to consider the opponent against whom the performance came.

The Chiefs aren't good. Having a record day against a bad team doesn't mean Harrison will be the next Jim Brown.

But, surely, there's another team out there willing to swing a deal for Harrison, if only for the buzz factor. And Harrison will never have any more trade value than he has right now.

So Holmgren should sell high and use the resulting draft pick(s) on the many other areas of need.

As to replacing Harrison, the draft is replete with guys who can move the chains if they get the blocking.

6. Silence Jim Brown.
Hall of Fame running back Jim Brown works as a member of the team's senior management. As a result, the things that Brown often says about the team carry extra weight than if he were simply a former Browns player with no other connection to the team.

Several weeks ago, Brown blabbed about a supposed interview between Holmgren and Lerner, a disclosure that could have killed Lerner's efforts to land Holmgren.

So one of Holmgren's first challenges will be to find a way to ensure that Brown won't say or do anything to affect the team's strategic interests moving forward.

The best-case scenario would be to sever ties with Brown. Since such a move likely wouldn't be the best way for Holmgren to endear himself to the locals, Holmgren should put Brown on a one-strike arrangement.

7. Dump Bernie Kosar.
Former Browns quarterback Bernie Kosar is being groomed for some sort of a role with the organization.

And one of Holmgren's first items of business should be to do to Kosar what Bill Belichick did to him back in the 1990s: say goodbye.

Kosar has no experience as a scout or personnel executive, and the handling of his personal finances inspires zero confidence regarding his ability to participate in the running of a football team.

Sending Kosar on his way would also help Holmgren send a clear message that, while former players who made key contributions to the franchise will be respected and, from time to time, honored, the fact that they once wore an orange helmet gives them no inherent ability or authority to participate in the current management of the franchise.

8. Hire a general manager.
At some point, Holmgren will need to delegate key functions that routinely fall under the jurisdiction of a general manager, such as preparing for free agency and the draft, negotiating contracts and engineering trades. In order to avoid creating the appearance that he's spreading himself too thin, Holmgren should also give that person the GM title, even if Holmgren retains the final say over all personnel moves.

Of course, if Holmgren retains final say, it might be difficult to hire someone away from another team. Under league rules, a front-office executive still under contract with another team may be blocked from taking a GM position elsewhere, unless the job entails control of the roster.

Holmgren could give the GM final say in his contract, while still preserving the ability to tell the GM how to use it. Then again, that could backfire if the GM thinks his contract means what it says.

9. Settle the Kokinis claim.
Former GM George Kokinis has sued the team for the balance of his contract. Kokinis contends that he was fired after clashing with Mangini regarding the extent of Kokinis' authority.

This appears to be a losing battle for the Browns. Even if it isn't, it's impossible to engineer a fresh start if the team is still worrying about stuff that happened before Holmgren arrived. So Holmgren should advise Lerner to get that claim settled ASAP.

10. Tell Randy Lerner to have no communication with the media.
Holmgren also should advise the owner to have no discussions or other communications with folks who cover football for a living. Most owners cultivate a sense of privacy and distance, and Lerner seems to prefer both.

So it really shouldn't be a hard sell for Holmgren. But given that Lerner has developed relationships with some members of the media in the past year, due in large part to the fact that Mangini has all the charisma of wet cardboard, it might be hard for Lerner to quit responding to calls, e-mails and/or text messages.

Regardless, Lerner needs to quit. He wanted someone to take the operation over, and now Lerner has him. He should let Holmgren be the one to deal with any requests from folks who have questions about the team.

Mike Florio writes and edits ProFootballTalk.com and is a regular contributor to Sporting News. Check out PFT for up-to-the minute NFL news.

I read this somewhere else and wondered, where the heck is this writer coming from when he says trade Jerome Harrison? Does he know that this isnt possible in any way? Does he want to do a sign and trade which doesnt happen in the NFL? Either this guy didnt do his homework or he doesnt know what the rules are in the NFL.

After reading that, Im guessing that he doesnt know what Jim Brown and Kosar are being paid to do and he in know way should be writing about firing them when he is completely ignorant on the subject. If your going to write about someone losing their jobs and providing, at least know what your talking about.

So this guy doesnt like Kosar, Brown, and Harrison and thinks they shouldnt work here after the contributions they made for this team

just clicking...

We may be seeing the influences of Holmgren over the franchise already.

I didn't know that Quinn had a torn hammy..this was reported on the radio...but the story says it was Quinn's foot that was injured...Quinn is going to IR and Anderson will be QBing the rest of the season.

Wow...that's unlucky as heck...I think...

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You hire the GM first, Florio