DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren - Part IV in a continuing saga

I get the feeling he has been working the phone lines and planning this thing for awhile. If he was getting his crew together for awhile he wouldnt have to wait for the end of the season since he wouldnt be under contract with the Browns no tampering applied.

It sounded to me like Mangini didnt deserve to be fired but he is going to do this his way and a change is needed for that to happen. It almost sounded apologetic to Eric with the I didnt like it when i was a coach but and that was a big but. He is going to do what is best for the Browns.

It is the Mike Holmgren show and he is gonna do it his way and his way is to surround himself with great football minds.

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Final say on everything. That won't sit well with EM.

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Now, this is the kind of assumption that always makes me scratch my head. Most of us fans have only the media to trust in making these personality evaluations, as we've never met ANY of these personalities. Let me get this out of the way, up front- I trust about 10-20% of what I read about the Browns staff, and I instinctively mistrust regional reports of anything that isn't on the Sunday field-of-play. Local op-eds are some of the most slanted, innuendo-laden and agenda-driven tripe that;s out there.

Mangini is rigid.
Mangini is a tyrant.
Mangini is a martinet.
Mangini is obsessed with control
Mangini is too ego-driven.

All these character evaluations have been tossed around these boards, and they are the kinds of character assessments I'm slow to make regarding people I've actually met and worked with. I've met folks who left me cold upon first impression, then turn out to be great co-workers and even friends, in a few cases. My point is: "how do any of us know for a certainty?"

Who's to say that Mangini can't work under a team president? Who's to say that Mangini can't work with a GM? Certainly not I. Never met the man, wouldn't presume to slap him with either tag. Fact: he took orders from Belichick and Pioli. He answered to someone in New York. Players who came here from NYC played hard from the start... kind of like the entire team seems to be doing now. Could they know something that we fans and the media don't?

Just because he has the run of the place right now doesn't mean he won't play nice with someone with Mike Holmgren's acumen and authority. To automatically assume that he won't be willing to narrow his focus to the on-field running of the team is presumptive in the extreme, and seems to be based on little more than circumstantial evidence... evidence that has all kinds of holes in it because of the tighter controls on what gets leaked to the media from 76 Groza.

Are you really gonna trust what they've written about him to be the honest-to-God gospel? Those op-eds and a few quotes from unhappy players?

Look... I'm no huge Mangini fan, but I'll go on record right now as saying that the guy was set up to be hated from Day One... and many fans seemed all to happy to oblige- at the earliest convenient moment.

In the meantime, I saw a guy who came in and tried to instill the exact same principles that were hallmarks of the Paul Brown era: team play, personal responsibility, hard work, unselfish play. He dumped high-profile malcontents with big mouths and bad attitudes. He stressed smarts, knowing your role, and playing as a unit. He took no crap and brooked no nonsense. Post-modern Olde Schoole. Folks bitched up a freakkin storm about Romeo being to soft on his players, and that we were too undisciplined. They were right. Now, some of these same people are bitching that Mangini's too hard on players. How can they be right again?

...or could it be that they are impatient little Goldilocks'... looking for 'that perfect fit,' and wanting it yesterday?

Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying that EM is Paul Brown. I'm not even saying that he's The Answer at HC. All I am saying is that the team's showing signs that he may have been as right as he was wrong... and that he could have been right in the basic ways that build a young team from scratch. I'll take that much, from a first-year HC.

I'm not sure that Mangini wouldn't yeild some authority in a new structure. He still has some say in the kind of players he wants, but doesn't have to split his time between being HC and running scouting team meetings and sifting through pages of stats and miles of tape. Besides, it's not like his alternative employment prospect is more attractive. Yet, you say he'll take it poorly as if it's already a lead-pipe cinch. Do you really think his ego will automatically outweigh his common sense? Would yours... if your job, career path and financial security were at stake?

Where's your proof that such an assertion is accurate... or even valid?

I don't know if Mangini will be here next year or not. All I hope is that Holmgren gives this decision a lot of critical thought. Unless he comes in and finds rampant dysfunction in the way things are being run, working with a co-operative Mangini and intact coaching staff might be the best thing for him AND the organization in the transition year. I mean really- if Mangini, Ryan, Daboll all buy into his view, why start from less than the scratch you already have?

lovely post as always Clem, agreed with every word. EM may be making some big bucks compared to the rest of us but I always find it weird to hear comments that suggest he is too stubborn to change and would rather lose his job than change. Those comments are often uttered by the same op editors who cite the Kokinis incident as EM gaining power, to secure his job for the ages. Which is it?

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I get the feeling he has been working the phone lines and planning this thing for awhile.

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STO had lots of programming about the Browns last night.. pretty much to a man, Tony Grossi, Doug Dieken and Jim Donovan agree with that. So do I.

I'm guessing that he pretty much knew from the time he got to Cleveland a few weeks ago that he was going to come here.

I know he says that he hasn't made up his mind about Mangini and his coaching staff and GM Candidates, but I bet he has and I bet he contacted folks he's interested in already....

In his shoes, I sure as heck would..

WOW,, Well dip me in Oil and call me slick.. damn fine post there Clem. And I think you are on to something there..

None of us actually know any of the folks we discuss on a daily basis. We (and I include myself in this) have a tendency to label players (harrison can't be a feature back), coaches (Mangini is a tyrant) and Owners (randy Lerner is a bad owner because he bought an Preimer league soccer team and doesn't care about the Browns) and yet, most of us have never met them..

And the reasons we label them... not because we actually know anything, but because the Media tells us things.. Then we link to this article or that article and soon, we've strung together reasons for our beliefs.. As if that makes them accurate depictions of those folks..

So I tend to agree with your post.

I'll try and clean up my act.. in fact, I'm gonna make that (along with losing 40 lbs) my New Years Resolution...

I agree Clem.

As was mentioned, nice post!

Let's not throw all of that on the media though. This is EM's doing. As they say, you are what you eat and what he's been feeding the media in his Belichickian way, have only been morsels from the garden of manpoleon goodness. Hardly a diet that will keep the masses happy and the weeds of innuendo are bound to spring up in that garden.

Belichicken way????? You mean the way that has produced how many Super Bowl appearances and wins????

I mean this isn't Boston and he sure as hell isn't Belichick.

You are right....when Belechick took over the Patriots...he took a team and blew them up, had a an even worse record than the year before(which prompted the coaching change) And everyone in Boston hated him....then came a crap load of Super Bowls...

Mangini took this team...Blew them up...had an even harder schedule from the previous year and has evened the previous years record and even has a chance at surpassing last years record...And everyone in Cleveland hates him....who knows what the future holds????

The thing that stood out to me was when he said that he and EM had talked and agree on the importance of the QB situation. I have a real strong feeling now we are going to draft a QB. Mike didn't come out and say he didn't like what he saw on film, but it sure seemed to be there underlying imo.


Yes ..but the key is to look at QB's that can run his style of offense and a few do fit that bill..and a good percentage of those can be had in the second/third rounds..
Plus he probably will bring in a FA to mentor the young one...

This is a remark that I find interesting....
In addition to being head coach, Holmgren was also general manager of the Seahawks for the first four years of his tenure there. When asked about what he learned from that experience and how it may apply it to his new job in Cleveland, he said, “If I had it to do over again, I would make the more important changes sooner

Mourg said he has been working the phones already..I would have said as soon as he was done with Seattle..he was already talking to his buddies..McKenzie being one.. he isn't going to waste time assembling a staft ..he also said he has too much responsibility..interesting ..I'm thinking while he hires a GM,he might either hire someone who is between himself and the GM or give the GM some of his responsibilities...
I'm curious to see the structure of this thing..we may see several FO people..

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Do you really think his ego will automatically outweigh his common sense? Would yours... if your job, career path and financial security were at stake?

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Until Mangini got a wake up call on Nov 1st, I do believe his ego outweighed his common sense.

Randy Lerner delivered that wake up call to Mangini and it was not until then, that Mangini's shield of invincibility cracked. From that point forward, Mangini and the entire coaching staff began to change, IMO. They began to coach as if their jobs, career path and financial security was at stake?

Let's not pretend that Mangini was simply following his coaching script and the entire season was supposed to turn out the way it did. There is no way to know how bad the Browns season would have been had Lerner not confronted his team and made it known that what was occurring was unacceptable and that changes were coming.

I'm not going to give Mangini a lot of the credit for bringing "some" success to the last half of this season. Mangini's light did not come on until Lerner turned it on.

Is Mangini a better coach when he is coaching for his job?...I would have to say "yes".

Can Mangini coach under Holmgren? ...I say "maybe".

Mangini appears to respond to authority, in a positive way, so maybe he can adapt to the changes Holmgren is going to make.

IMO, Mangini has a lot to learn when it comes to "coaching" and he may get a golden opportunity to better himself, as a coach, if he is willing to learn from Holmgren.

It appears that Holmgren may want to coach again, so the chances that Mangini can be retained for at least 1 more year could have increased. Holmgren will have to judge for himself whether Mangini is capable of adapting to the Holmgren way.

We will know if Mangini will get that chance, in a week or so.

...jmho..mac

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IMO, Mangini has a lot to learn when it comes to "coaching" and he may get a golden opportunity to better himself, as a coach, if he is willing to learn from Holmgren.

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Hey, you know what, I hadn't thought of it that way, but yeah, he gets a chance to milk that relationship with Holmgren to learn another way (not just the one way he seems to know) to do things. This is really a golden opportunity to do that..

I guess the questions are, will he be given that chance and if he is, will he accept that challenge...

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I'm not going to give Mangini a lot of the credit for bringing "some" success to the last half of this season. Mangini's light did not come on until Lerner turned it on.

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Everybodys light comes on at some point... Belichick admitted that his came on shortly after leaving Cleveland... so the question is, do we want to keep him now that his light is on and he has some supervision or go get a new guy and HOPE his light comes on quicker?

I'm really glad I don't have to make that decision..

Mangini couldnt share power with his handpicked GM. Why would he want to be Holmgren's flunky cause lets face it this is the Mike Holmgren show whether he is on the sidelines or not.

Look Mangini will not be here. I dont see anyway the 2 egos can work together at all. He wouldnt fire daboll before and i dont think he would now. Mangini will have shown enough improvement to end the season that he has a chance to land somewhere.

Now the one guy that has a very good chance of staying is Ryan. That gatoraide bath was a clear statement from the D about how they feel about Rob Ryan. Heck Holmgren and Ryan seems like the perfect combo. One doesnt care about O and other doesnt care about D. This is a perfect marriage.

A Holmgren designed offense and a pure ryan desgined D (not the hybrid Bellichek zone that we see every other week) could be special.

do we want to keep him now that his light is on and he has some supervision or go get a new guy and HOPE his light comes on quicker?

Actually MH partially answered that anyway...but in a different manner..
It's a body of work that he'll evaluate EM on..plus the scheme that MH wants to run..if he feels convinced that EM can run a WCO ,(not his way) but the way MH wants it run,he may get a shot..but he will not bring in players to save EM's job ,but players who fit the scheme..
Any new coach if brought in will already know how to run that offense ..so the light will already be there ,just needs to flicked on..
As far as the light being turned on..it's more than just that..EM has mishandled many things yet done some positive things..but it makes you wonder why he didn't do those things early on..was it the light being turned on, or was he just forced to install a better bulb?
I think it's a lot of the latter..

Didn't see this posted yet:


Jason La Canfora
It would be stunning if Browns kept Mangini

Posted: December 28th, 2009 | Jason La Canfora | Tags: Cleveland Browns, Eric Mangini, Mike Holmgren

The more I dig around into the situation in Cleveland, the more convinced I am that Eric Mangini’s first season with the Browns will be his last. In fact, at this point, I would be stunned if he came back for 2010. Totally stunned.

Mike Holmgren, the new team president, told the media Monday that he has not made a final decision on Mangini. However, according to sources with knowledge of the situation, Holmgren has done plenty of due diligence since taking the job, and Mangini’s difficulties dealing with players, co-workers, team employees, etc., dating back to his time as coach of the Jets, when coupled with the on-field performance of his teams, make it virtually certain Holmgren will change coaches in the coming weeks.

Holmgren will meet with Mangini next Monday when he comes to Cleveland and then will conduct a press conference with the media. By the following week, look for a wholesale reconstruction of the Browns organization to begin, with sweeping changes being made throughout football operations, coaching, etc. Mangini shares no coaching roots with Holmgren and comes from a tree diametrically different from the West Coast system Holmgren will implement. Unless something changes dramatically, and given the homework already conducted, that’s highly unlikely. It’s more a matter of when than if a new coach arrives.

The next move could be the hiring of a general manager. Randy Mueller, also a candidate in Seattle, is considered by some league sources as a favorite. Former Denver general manager Ted Sundquist could also be in the mix, while up-and-comers such as Green Bay’s John Schneider and Seattle’s Will Lewis are also in the mix.

Also, as I reported first last week, when Jim Zorn and his staff are let go in Washington, look for Zorn and offensive coordinator Sherman Smith to land back with Holmgren after both were long-time members of his staff in Seattle. Zorn would be a strong quarterback coach if nothing else, while Smith played a central role in the Seahawks’ ground game when Shaun Alexander was running wild. Should Holmgren go with a defensive head coach, look for Leslie Frazier, Minnesota’s defensive coordinator, to be a top choice.

I would LOVE to get some ex-head coaches in here as coordinators. One thing I've noticed is that head coaches who flop almost always seem to do very well when they return to their coordinator roots - Morningwig and LeBeau are the two examples that first spring to mind, but I remember seeing a lot more prowling the sidelines.

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Any new coach if brought in will already know how to run that offense ..so the light will already be there ,just needs to flicked on..

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Knowing the scheme and the Xs and Os does not mean the head coaching light is already there... How many great OCs and DCs have failed as head coaches even though they got to install and run their own scheme? The step from OC/DC to HC is not a small step, it's a giant leap... and having that light come on is ALWAYS in question until it does.

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As far as the light being turned on..it's more than just that..EM has mishandled many things yet done some positive things..

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As will his replacement more than likely.

Some of what we have been experiencing IS due to the way Mangini has run his game... I'll agree to that, for sure.

What has always bothered me most about this season's scenario is the way the fans seemed to take up the torches... and how quickly they did it. In that respect, I've always suspected that what they read from the media fuelled their fire. Let's face it- there really wasn't enough time for the temperate fan to form an opinion by the time the "fire Mangini" posts started popping up. Those opinions had to come from somewhere... and at the time, the only "facts" we had were coming from the regional media outlets.

Lynchmobs have never been known for taking their time and considering all the possible explanations before stoking up the torches and looking for suitable trees.

I guess what I'm really saying is this: Holmgren seems to be a serious, thoughtful man. That in itself is reason enough to consider the possibility that Mangini might be here next year... for reasons that we fans haven't seen and can't possibly know. For us fans, it's all speculation (until it's official).

Me? I'm just speculatin' like all the rest.


.02

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for reasons that we fans haven't seen and can't possibly know.

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..and I think that reason is going to be the players... I think a lot of whether Mangini stays or goes is going to have to do with the opinions of the key players. I haven't read much about the players relationship with the coach other than I'm pretty sure Jamal Lewis doesn't like him and I'm pretty sure that Josh Cribbs does but everybody else has been pretty neutral. Nobody bashing him, but nobody really defending him either...

Or let's put it this way, a generally negative opinion by the players is going to make Holmgrens decision that much easier, Mangini is gone... But if the overall opinion of the players is positive, he still might be gone, but Holmgren is at least going to have to take that into consideration.

Knowing the scheme and the Xs and Os does not mean the head coaching light is already there... How many great OCs and DCs have failed as head coaches even though they got to install and run their own scheme? The step from OC/DC to HC is not a small step, it's a giant leap... and having that light come on is ALWAYS in question until it does.


Here's the thing..MH wants to bring his own people in..and that means someone who will understand the system he wants run..and run it his way.
Everyone has to be on the same page including whoever is coaching the team.
Thats what I meant..why bring in a coach if he is unable to do what you want?
And bank it the coach will only be coaching not making personnel decisions..and he will have to answer to several people above him..not the way it's been here..

Attack...

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that means someone who will understand the system he wants run..and run it his way.
Everyone has to be on the same page including whoever is coaching the team.
Thats what I meant..why bring in a coach if he is unable to do what you want?

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I'm not trying to argue with you... I understand that MH will want a guy that understands the system and wants to run it and does what MH asks him to do... I understand that.

The other side is the whole "light coming on" idea... just because the guy understands the system and runs it MHs way, doesn't mean he will be a great coach. He still has to develop the relationship with the players, he still has to manage the media, he still has to make those in-game decisions, he still has to have good clock management skills, he still has to recognize the talent on his roster and start the best players....

Notice a pattern? Mangini knows Xs and Os, RAC knows Xs and Os, Butch knows Xs and Os, but they all fell short in some or most of the areas above, that's why they didn't succeed as a head coach....

So unless MH is going to be sitting up in Lerner's box on gameday talking into the coaches ear, telling him when to call timeout, when to challenge a play, when to go for it on 4th down and when to punt, etc... the coach still has a lot of things to do that we don't know if he can do just because he knows and believes in MHs system.

Don't worry about debating ..that should be done..voicing thoughts and opinions..I don't get upset at that especially when I challenge a different point of view..it makes discussion interesting..
X & Os are a given..every coach knows them..some just know them better..

just because the guy understands the system and runs it MHs way, doesn't mean he will be a great coach.

I never said he would have to be or is a great HC..I mean that MH will have someone who is familar with what he wants to do..and dude may have been a good coach..I'll wait on that one..

He still has to develop the relationship with the players, he still has to manage the media, he still has to make those in-game decisions, he still has to have good clock management skills, he still has to recognize the talent on his roster and start the best players....


And those very things are characteristics that none of the Browns coaches here have been good at and U listed the names.
These things are areas MH will look at and make his decision on..he knows all too well that when FO people(including coaches ) are not on the same page ,failure is right around the corner..
Now there is no perfect coach but some are far better than others..
My main point(not disregarding yours) is that any new coach brought in will be one MH and his GM are comfortable with.. and that includes running the system put in place..
I understand your POV..

My biggest concern w/Holmgren is if he can check his ego at the door when he reports to work, I don't know the man well enough to know if he's ever even had problems with that.The fact that he was stripped of GM duties while in Seattle and was still willing to come back afterward is a positive in that regard,..time will tell.

He has to look at the state of this team right now and see that positive steps HAVE been taken. We're a better team right now than last year at this time and they way we got here is impressive.How does a team improve when you lose 3 of the best players on the team in Edwards,Winslow,and Lewis? These guys were let go when the hated media frenzy was at it's peak, it takes a special person to overcome not only the media pressure but the grind involved in trying to right a franchise that was in total chaos.

MH is not faced with the magnitude of problems that EM was only a few short months ago. The table has been set already,....we have money to spend in FA,,..we have 11 draft picks and a disciplined team with a ton of heart that just happens to be riding a 3 game winning streak.
Now,..is MH going to come in here and give credit where credit is due or is he going to come in here,..blow things up,..and try to eventually take the credit for the work thats ALREADY been done?

He has to look at the state of this team right now and see that positive steps HAVE been taken.

Like few penalties and they've scored some points?
What about the weak defenses they have played against?
Remember his words..not gonna look at just one/two/three games but the whole body of work..
What was going on at the beginning of the season?
Chaos..utter chaos.. not even looking like a NFL team..




MH is not faced with the magnitude of problems that EM was only a few short months ago. The table has been set already

If MH isn't faced with the magnitude of problems why is he being in?
Fact is it's worse...and EM made it worse ..personnel decisions ,other things behind the scenes..dude is being hired to straighten the mess out..remember the words Lerner said:"Credible leader"..it means EM is not a credible leader..and Lerner needed someone to take charge other than Manpolen.

Now,..is MH going to come in here and give credit where credit is due or is he going to come in here,..blow things up,..and try to eventually take the credit for the work thats ALREADY been done?

U make it sound like this team currently is built to where it's almost a contender..
Whats already been done?
Only a few things are marginally better..other areas are worse.
Whats to tear down?
U guys keep saying that..what is there to tear down??
The only thing to do is upgrade..this team needs upgrades on every unit.
Thats means jettisoning the crap thats there.Thats not tearing anything down.

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Notice a pattern? Mangini knows Xs and Os, RAC knows Xs and Os, Butch knows Xs and Os, but they all fell short in some or most of the areas above, that's why they didn't succeed as a head coach....

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Yes, I notice a pattern...Mangini, RAC and Butch Davis were all defensive coaches who hired their own OCs.

Somehow, HC from the defensive side of the ball don't seem to put enough emphasis on the qualifications of their OC.

With the hire of Holmgren, the offensive side of the ball will be a priority. Even if Holmgren keeps Mangini...it's not likely that EM will have much, if any influence over the offensive coaching staff, offensive player personnel or the play calling...and that is a good thing for the Browns.

you are so short sighted, its not only useless to answer your questions.....you wouldn't even consider them as answers.

not trying to be malicious, but is the record and stats the only important thing to you?

or did the dynamic play of "elites" like edwards and winslow during camp crennel cause a longing for offensive production as the benchmark for team success?


when you measure success in such a narrow, intentionally restricted manner to help support an opinion, it just devalues your opinion. you buy into the boston-based hate for mangini, and choose to use snippets taken from here and there to convince yourself your opinion is valid and correct.

you could be right...sure. yet, you speak of the egos of men you have never, and will never meet, based soley on the biased opinions of other men with agendas.... like they are your brother, thus allowing you to predicate the future. keep grinding the axe....

"Lynchmobs have never been known for taking their time and considering all the possible explanations before stoking up the torches and looking for suitable trees."

And then came the totally unexpected....The Hero showed up and Shot off that 12 guage into the air (both barrels) to stop the fervor of the lynch mob...That Hero? The Steeler game WIN. Then week after week the lynch mob have trickled off - leaving just a few drunks at the Saloon still talking it up as an imperitive...



I love Westerns

Attack...I keep reading your posts thinking its me...and then somewhere I'm saying...I WROTE THAT lol to realize it ain't me. I'm waiting to get blamed for something you wrote

What the hell has Mangini actually done here? He beat a bills team that had like 9 of 11 starters out or playing injured basicly by forfeit.

Beat a Steelers team that was on a 5 game losing streak. Beat a Raiders team that traveled across country to a snowy day in Cleveland oo and the Raiders suck and so does the Chiefs.

What he did to anderson and quinn is appalling. His inability to see that Lewis was a joke at running back is unreal. Allowing St Claire to play week after week is insance. Not allowing fraley to continue at guard when he seemed to actually pull the line together was moronic.

He has refused to replace a rookie OC who has been beyond incompetent. He is so loved by the players that they give Rob Ryan a gatoraide bath after the win. Do you guys realize what kind of slap in the face that is to the HC?

He screwed his hand picked GM and supposed friend. He is done for and everyone needs to get used to that fact.

Holmgren isnt going to draft for Mangini system. He is going to draft his players for his coaches for his system.

BTW why would mangini want to answer to Holmgren, his GM probably ron wolf too. Hell he couldnt share power with kokopuffs how is he going to be working under 2 or 3 guys. It is not going to happen.

There think my rant is done.

you are so short sighted, its not only useless to answer your questions.....you wouldn't even consider them as answers.


If they don't hold any weight why would I actually bother with them?

not trying to be malicious, but is the record and stats the only important thing to you?


Where did I use stats?
And record is a overall sum of progress or failure.

or did the dynamic play of "elites" like edwards and winslow during camp crennel cause a longing for offensive production as the benchmark for team success?



Uh..offensive production should be a target for any regime..whast your point?


when you measure success in such a narrow, intentionally restricted manner to help support an opinion, it just devalues your opinion. you buy into the boston-based hate for mangini, and choose to use snippets taken from here and there to convince yourself your opinion is valid and correct.


Sooo what should I base it on?
Lets see..they've had fewer penalities..o.k...scored some points against bad teams..o.k..beat some bad teams..plus Pukesburgh (that was good and i said so at the time)o.k.what else do I need to look at?

Do I need to maybe look at how disgusting they were to watch practically all year?
Do I need to look at the soap opera mess that was off the field?

I buy into the Boston based hate..oh ..I guess I mentioned Spygate somewhere..snipets taken from here and there..like can U prove that?


you could be right...sure. yet, you speak of the egos of men you have never, and will never meet, based soley on the biased opinions of other men with agendas.... like they are your brother, thus allowing you to predicate the future. keep grinding the axe....

I could be right..oh really?
Right about what? From my biased stolen opinions of other men who I feel are my brother?
Gotcha!
So I don't have the ability to look the situation..use a teensy bit of logic and reason..form my own thoughts and then write it down?

Like ,tell me how I should be viewing this....if U can..

JK

I am not so sure Holmgren is going to demand we run this system or that system.

I think he wants a comfort level with his coach and he will have sway who gets drafted.

Remember the Rooney Rule...it was defined he was taking care of ticketing and things of that nature.

I don't think anybody is dumb enough to think he isn't going to be somewhat involved, but he can't be that involved or it might bite us.

I think his first move will be to fill the GM position, then he and the new GM will sit and discuss Mangini's fate.

That's how I see it.

"Beat a Steelers team that was on a 5 game losing streak."

To minimize this game in any way, shape or form sort of loses any credibility in your down play of the winning that we are doing. I don't care what you say. Their backs were against the wall they needed this win...They beat us 12 times in a row so any depression from a losing streak as far as team confidence was there should have been eliminated. We are a Division opponent and an AFC opponent very big in their quest that might need tie breakers.

And then there is HOW WE BEAT THEM...not via a Hail-Mary or a comeback against a prevent D and then we recover an onside kick. We manhandled them and BEAT them physically!!! Not only not done in the losing streak but any win against them in a long, long time.

How can anyone minimize that beat down...or the 3 game winning streak...only duplicated 2 x before??? Like some ho hum nothing to be used as FACT on some good that Mangini and staff actually bring to the table! IT DOES EXIST.

Its of that variety of...well take away AP's 2 longest runs each game and he's a pretty average RB? Say what you must. Say what you dislike about Mangini.

But don't say these wins don't count. On top of it - its at the END OF A SEASON (a first for a Brown's team since 99) - End of the Butch Regime how did the players respond?
04 14th week loss to the Bills 37-7 they were 6-6 coming into the game.
04 15th week loss to the Chargers 21-0 the were 11-2 and an elite team.
04 16th week loss to the Dolphins 10-7 they were a 3-11 team.

08 14th week loss to the Titans 28-9 they were a 11-1 team a big surprise of the NFL
08 15th week loss to the Eagles 30-10 they were a 7-5-1 team
08 16th week loss to the Bengals 14-0 they were a 2-11-1 team

And now I see a Mangini lead team with an axe over his head and one of the big negatives about MANGINI from the Naysayers is how the players don't like to play for him...and yet we got these 3 December wins!

And the team obviously playing well...doing things our teams have never done in this fashion since the 1999 re-birth. Controlling the LOS for one

So the only game you got is to MINIMIZE this GOOD????? Sorry I'm not buying.

Make your point. Have your opinion. Give us the reasons for that opinion.

But don't give me this garbage of minimizing this 3 game win streak to mean absolutely NOTHING.

No credibility in it.

JMHO

EO...

they mean nothing, sorry for busting yet another of your illusion bubbles about our beloved Browns...but they mean nothing

....just like Suggs big game against the Bengals at the end of a season long ago meant nothing 2month later

At the end of the season we will be yet another Browns 4-12 or 5-11 team

oh, and we are far from playing "well" EO...far from it...we're still a bad football team that has problems stopping anybody on D and is completely toothless on O without a great day running...we do 1of4 important things good right now (running the ball, others being: passing, run stopping, pass D)...and even that has YET to be consistently good

we are playing bum teams and would have lost to 1 of them if not for Cribbs' HoF day AND Harrison's career day...it took 2 career days of our only 2 playmakers to barely beat a team that will be picking in the Top 5 AGAIN...

If the schedule would have been more balanced, nobody would even try talking up yet another 4or5 win season

And those that actually don't subscribe to that lynch mob mentality are automatically considered as people who love and support Mangini 100% And they are attacked as such.....Some might support him...but I venture most are just trying to find out what the real story is before making any kind of judgement...

Quote:

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but I venture most are just trying to find out what the real story is before making any kind of judgement...

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You give us way......to much credit.....

I'm just curious...

I think it's a near mortal lock that Jim Zorn will be coaching in some aspect for the Cleveland Browns next year. My question is would he accept being the QB coach? Because I think that is the only such position he'd be good at.

He failed as both HC and OC for the Skins, although that would probably be based more on his offensive line and crappy drafting tactics used by Washington rather than him...I don't know.