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Daboll is way too slow in figuring out necessary changes. He starts the season with Quinn in there with 2 wide receiver sets and calls for short passes. Teams figure out how to shut that down easily by blitzing and jamming the receivers at the line. So Quinn gets killed because our wide receivers are a joke and cannot beat press coverage on their own. Anyone with half a brain knows if you are going to throw short, throw in a couple more receivers (either WRs or TEs running routes) and spread it out. That way you have more options to throw to if you need to get the ball away quickly. Since St. Clair is a travesty, Daboll should have known this was the right approach.
So this blockhead sticks to the crappy conservative sets and Quinn gets killed because nobody is open. Bring in DA. He is not an NFL starter. If you think he is, you either hate Quinn or think it is acceptable to consistently throw the ball at the feet of receivers 5 yards away from him. With DA, Daboll opens up the offense. Why? Because supposedly DA can throw the long ball. Umm, you can have a spread offense without throwing the ball deep down-field.
Quinn comes back in. Daboll allows him to run no huddle with multiple WR sets. What happens? We start to score touchdowns and look like a team that at least belongs in the NFL. Why the hell did it take Daboll so long to figure this out?
Furthermore, he completely blew it with the running game. It was painfully obvious that we could not run the ball inside from the beginning of the season. Daboll didn't even try to run outside with Lewis, probably because he was too damn slow. So we get rid of Lewis. But then we run the same inside plays all game with the faster Harrison and Jennings! I found myself yelling at the tv "Run the ball outside!" What happens when we do? Harrison looks like Marshall Faulk. Why did it take 3/4 of the season to figure out that we should play to our strengths and use our speedy RBs with our athletic pulling guards to gain yards outside?
Daboll clearly has no clue what he is doing. He fits players to a system instead of fitting the system to the players' strengths.
Fire him.
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Who was responsible for bringing Daboll in?
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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What does that have to do with anything? I said forget Mangini. I don't really care if he stays or goes. I am talking about Daboll.
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Once our O-Line starting gelling and we had the right running back in there our offense started running pretty smoothly. Daboll also ran the Wildcat very well. I think if given the proper QB Daboll can successfully run an offense. Also, the notion that we were successful because we started running to the outside is completely wrong. Watch these videos (Harrison's highlights: Week 15, Week 16, Week 17 ) and tell me how many times Harrison gains good yardage running straight up the gut. Quote:
Who was responsible for bringing Daboll in?
This is not a fair argument at all.
All Head Coaches bring in bad assistants. The Giants just fired their defensive coordinator. Does that mean Coughlin should be fired for hiring him?
There are plenty of coordinators who get fired every year. Does that mean the head coach should get fired because they brought them in? No.
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Like I mentioned in the Mangini thread ... I say we keep Mangini and replace the coaches on the offensive side. Mangini is a Parcells/Bellichek type coach, and is going to bring defense and work ethic to a team. Holmgren is a Walsh/WCO type guy, and can suggest the best guys to set up a nice little offensive program. We would have the best of both worlds. 
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No doubt those were good runs, but I would argue we ran up the middle successfully because teams had to respect our running outside. They could no longer stack the box. I am in no way suggesting our only successful runs were outside.
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I'm really interested in how the changes were made to the offense during the year. They went to the no huddle and that certainly helped Quinn. I just wonder who suggested making that change. Plus, any changes in the blocking scheme. I really loved the way we could run the ball, even when teams expected it, these last few games.
On one hand, I feel bad for Daboll since the QBs he had to run his offense were really a liability. On the other hand, some of the play calling, especially in the first half of the season, was really bizarre.
In the end, Holmgren is a offensive mastermind. For now I think I'll live in the fantasy world with DC and hope Holmgren can work with Mangini to install his type of offense (and bring in a new QB) while keeping the other facets of the game largely unaffected.
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I'm a little less on that train than most are.
I mean...yes there were a lot of things that he adjusted to very slow, but this was the very first time he's called plays, and he showed marked improvement as the season went on.
Daboll improved in a number of facets this season.
First he improved in his timing and use of the "flash" package and utilized Josh Cribbs very effectively in the offense.
Second in the 2nd go around with Quinn he used him to his strengths, gave him the freedom to use his brain in the no huddle and the short passes and other things that Quinn does particularly well. Against Detroit he even mixed in long passes too.
Third Daboll showed an increased knowledge of his players. Think of how well he used Harrison towards the end of the year, and to your point about still running Harrison inside...thats something you have to do. The same as using the pass to keep the defense honest in the run game. you have to run inside as well as outside to be effective in the running game and i think daboll did a good job of that.
also he improved in using his WRs...Robiskie, MoMass, and even Stuckey were well used. We used Evan Moore and Michael Gaines to their strengths and we played very well.
The one thing that I think he lacks now is the killer instinct to put the pedal to the floor and keep teams down when we're up. We let Oakland and Jacksonville (to a much lesser extent) back in the game by not moving the ball on offense with less than aggressive calls.
I really think that Daboll did a much better job utilizing his talent after the bye week and continually improved as the year went on with our offense and the talent that we did have on the roster.
With an offseason and much much film study we can revamp the gameplans and improve even more.
While I dont think Daboll was the best offensive coordinator at the beginning of the year, he was much improved and quite good in fact by the end of the season. Scoring 23, 23, 41, 37 and 13 in Wins is pretty decent. especially with the talent we have here.
He's better than Mo Carthon...not to mention the improvement he can make with Holgren tutoring him
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Our biggest runs were definitely to the outside, and they were stacking 10 in the box on us at the end.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
I'm a little less on that train than most are.
I mean...yes there were a lot of things that he adjusted to very slow, but this was the very first time he's called plays, and he showed marked improvement as the season went on.
Daboll improved in a number of facets this season.
First he improved in his timing and use of the "flash" package and utilized Josh Cribbs very effectively in the offense.
Second in the 2nd go around with Quinn he used him to his strengths, gave him the freedom to use his brain in the no huddle and the short passes and other things that Quinn does particularly well. Against Detroit he even mixed in long passes too.
Third Daboll showed an increased knowledge of his players. Think of how well he used Harrison towards the end of the year, and to your point about still running Harrison inside...thats something you have to do. The same as using the pass to keep the defense honest in the run game. you have to run inside as well as outside to be effective in the running game and i think daboll did a good job of that.
also he improved in using his WRs...Robiskie, MoMass, and even Stuckey were well used. We used Evan Moore and Michael Gaines to their strengths and we played very well.
The one thing that I think he lacks now is the killer instinct to put the pedal to the floor and keep teams down when we're up. We let Oakland and Jacksonville (to a much lesser extent) back in the game by not moving the ball on offense with less than aggressive calls.
I really think that Daboll did a much better job utilizing his talent after the bye week and continually improved as the year went on with our offense and the talent that we did have on the roster.
With an offseason and much much film study we can revamp the gameplans and improve even more.
While I dont think Daboll was the best offensive coordinator at the beginning of the year, he was much improved and quite good in fact by the end of the season. Scoring 23, 23, 41, 37 and 13 in Wins is pretty decent. especially with the talent we have here.
He's better than Mo Carthon...not to mention the improvement he can make with Holgren tutoring him
I'll concede that he improved over the year. My point is that it was not fast enough. Perhaps I expect too much, but I really feel the changes he made should have occurred much earlier in the season. And if he had anything to do with keeping DA in (My guess is Mangini did it for a spark in one game, which I am ok with I guess. My problem is staying with him after it was clear he was not going to get the job done), that should call his judgment into question.
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This is exactly what I see Holmgren laying out to Mangini... in fact I am almost certain of it.
Holmgren wants Mangini to agree to an overhaul of his entire offense by getting rid of the offensive staff. He sees that there might be a good mix of defensive minds already in the building. But knows/thinks his offensive knowledge far outweighs anybody else in the building. He wants to bring in his guys on offense to work with Mangini on developing what he percieves as the best offense in football. This way he's not totally rebuilding things. Also this gives him the best shot at jump starting his comeback to coaching if it is needed. The QB's and the rest of the offense will then have the benefit of running his system already. I think he is correct with this course of action too... it would be a perfect balance IMO of defense and offensive minds. He'll probably want to bring in Zorn as the offensive coordinator. The thing I'm not sure on is if Mangini will lay down and axe his friend who he believes is growing into the position. Which maybe he's right... maybe he is. If he won't agree... he is gone.
And if he is gone.. I think he will look to keep the 3-4 and Ryan; then hire Marty (HC), and Zorn (OC) as the staff if all agree to stay/come aboard. I believe this because he stated he doesn't think, nor does he want to rebuild the entire team. Switching to a 43 will be a rebuild. Switching to his style of offense will not be.
That's my thinking and I'm sticking to it. Though I'm normally completely wrong... so look for Holmgren to keep things the same or fire everbody with a switch to the 43 and west coast.
"I'm a mog. Half man, half dog. I'm my own best friend."
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Marty Schottenheimer has a 0% chance of coaching this team.
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nrtu..
I'm not sure that his play calling improved as much as the execution improved.
How many times did he call for the wildcat at the oddest time, and just repeatedly do the same run to the left with Cribbs over and over. It was often successful thanks to Cribbs and a good block or to, not because it fooled anyone.
How many times did we concede to punt Sunday, on 3rd and long to run up the middle. Playing not-to-lose is not my idea of effective. Especially since we had them on the ropes. Take a shot at a first down, and if it's not there, throw it away(of course DA doesn't understand that concept so maybe that is a moot point).
How many times throughout the year did we run on 1st and 2nd so regularly that teams we played could have taken the week before the game off since our play calling seemed as if it it was being called using huge cue-cards on the sideline.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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you could easily say the same thing as to him keeping quinn in too. it's easy to hate on someone because you can always find a reason. daboll got better. keep in him that was his first season as an oc. he did well after the bye and ok overall.
that said, if we had to lose daboll to keep mangini and the defense, i'm for it.
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True enough, but think about all the midseason changes too...
The handling of the QB situation was poor, BUT, i lay that more on Mangini than on Daboll, so he had to adjust to the ineffectiveness of poor QB play from TWO different QBs with very very contrasting styles. In addition, the change of talent had to cause major issues for Daboll. Not to mention the difference in the usage of Cribbs. We tried him as a WR for a while and it didnt work and then he went back to the gimmick Brad Smith style after he couldnt be a WR....then our TEs continued to rotate like a turnstile.
He had to deal with personnel changes for much of the season and after some reflection during the bye he REALLY turned it up and improved greatly.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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In the end, I think that is the only change that is going to happen.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
In the end, I think that is the only change that is going to happen.
I think thats a good possibilty with the possible labor unrest in 2011.
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We need a good QB, We can't run against good teams like Baltimore all the time.
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we definitely need improved production from that position, but we do NOT need to be spending another high pick on it at this point... no way in hell.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Double Bingo,...
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I am confident in any QB Holmgren chooses.
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Marty Schottenheimer has a 0% chance of coaching this team.
Marty Mornhinweg is widely being rumored as a possible canidate for the HC job as he and Holmgren are tight. I had no delusions of Schottenheimer coming here.
"I'm a mog. Half man, half dog. I'm my own best friend."
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Id rather try to send BQ, or DA to Philly along with a 4th rounder for Mick Vick....the guy has learned his lesson and would do great in a WCO.....not to mention the affect he would have on the "Dawg Pound", He is a bit of a gamble but the guy has tons of talent, and I think he has turned a corner in his life and is focused on football.....thoughts?
Last edited by Tubby_Dawg; 01/04/10 11:02 PM.
#brownsgoodkarma
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Trades have to work both ways. Why the hell would the Eagles want anything to do with Quinn or Anderson?
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Both would be very decent backups in the NFL, and Vick as already said he doesnt want to be a gimmick, or a trick play type of guy....i think he could do some damage as our starter
#brownsgoodkarma
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Andy Reid is very much a system guy, and he has his backup in Kevin Kolb. I'm not saying Vick isn't talented, or wasn't, anyway, but the Eagles could probably trade Vick for a 3rd rounder somewhere, and that would do them a lot better than DA/BQ and a 4th.
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I have a feeling McNabb might get traded this offseason. Kolb looks better than him.
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well either way I wouldnt mind trying to get him in here.....dump DA off somewhere cause his paycheck is too big to ride the pine, and bring in Vick....imagine our Wildcat with him and Cribbs in at the same time.....
#brownsgoodkarma
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Don't forget what Holmgren did when he left Green Bay and went to Seattle. - He made a trade with Green Bay for Matt Hasselback.
Holmgren has said that all you need to make the WCO work is the right quarterback. I could see Holmgren trying to cut a deal with Seattle to bring Hasselback here, along with a couple people from Seattle's staff.
Holmgren also has connections with Andy Reid, and may look to pluck a couple players and coaches from his staff.
Don't lose sight of John Gruden - served under Holmgren in Green Bay, is from Ohio, and loves the Browns. - I think Gruden could do some great things with our offense. Josh Cribbs' role in a John Gruden offense would be so fun to watch.
Heck, Holmgren may like what he sees in Daboll and choose to teach him rather than bringing in somebody else.
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I would be more than excited if we got gruden......for some reason though I just think Vick would do wonders here running the WCO, imagine him and Cribbs on the field at the same time running the wildcat, or a motion where vick shifts to WR, and Cribbs shifts to QB....the D would pee down their legs trying to figure out what is about to happen
#brownsgoodkarma
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Quote:
Like I mentioned in the Mangini thread ... I say we keep Mangini and replace the coaches on the offensive side. Mangini is a Parcells/Bellichek type coach, and is going to bring defense and work ethic to a team. Holmgren is a Walsh/WCO type guy, and can suggest the best guys to set up a nice little offensive program. We would have the best of both worlds.
This is what I'm hoping to see.
Minimum turnover/maximum gain.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Quote:
Quote:
Like I mentioned in the Mangini thread ... I say we keep Mangini and replace the coaches on the offensive side. Mangini is a Parcells/Bellichek type coach, and is going to bring defense and work ethic to a team. Holmgren is a Walsh/WCO type guy, and can suggest the best guys to set up a nice little offensive program. We would have the best of both worlds.
This is what I'm hoping to see.
Minimum turnover/maximum gain.
Me too. I think it's a little pie in the sky, but what the heck... gotta be hopeful for something.
Really, at this point, there's one thing I want Holmgren to take the lead on and do this offseason... one thing that I think is more important than anything else and it's something that he excels at... and that's finding us a quarterback. These last few games it's become painfully obvious to me that our QB play is holding our offense back. It's a credit to our team that we can run the ball, even when the opposing D knows we will, and still be effective. In fact, I think it's one of the greatest accomplishments for us since 99.... now if we just had an smart, accurate QB that could make some throws when we need 'em, we'd really be rolling.
Go get us a QB, Mike!
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I think Gruden is the only chocie if MH doesn't keep Mangini.
nrtu,...I want no part of Michael Vick,...sorry I place more value on being a human being than I do a football player's skill set. IMO, he should not be in the League. If it had been you or I that violated such Federal Statutes, we'd both still be in jail. Just my opinion. He plays at CBS ? then I don't even go on my "free" tickets. I'd rather continue trying to build around Anderson, and he is NOT my pick over Quinn.
Last edited by OoooRahJoice; 01/05/10 09:17 AM.
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Only coach I like or see the team playing hard for is Ryan. The offense under Daboll is beyond inept. I'd settle for someone who actually knows what a forward pass and a vertical pass are.
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I don't mind Daboll. I think he showed some good and bad this past season, but definitely improved down the stretch.
He is a first year coordinator, and his improvement suggests that he can be competitive within the league. He directed the offense through 5 victories this season and snapped a streak of offensive futility that had plagued this team going back a full-season.
His system; when orchestrated effectively, produced wins for both Quarterbacks. It finally showcased the enigmatic Jerome Harrison who has been a fixture on the bench for the past few years while media and fans urged the team to play him.
He finally allowed J. Cribbs to throw the ball even though it wasn't always pretty. He incorporated the wildcat with some success and found ways to get Cribbs the ball. Cribbs ran for first downs, he ran for touchdowns, and he caught a touchdowns. We finally started to see the offensive coaches give a concerted effort towards getting Cribbs the ball.
Daboll oversaw an offensive scheme that proved effective against several oponents. He found ways to get the ball to our playmakers, and he has shown improvement over the course of the season.
He should stay put and grow with the rest of the players/coaches as we continue to build a winning organization here in Cleveland.
I believe Holmgren is satisfied with the people we have coaching the team and from what he has seen, he believes it is a capable bunch.
He chose to retain them, and I believe it is the right choice.
Daboll deserves to stay just as much as the rest of the coaches. They worked together to make some solid improvements over last years squad!!!!!!
No one would ever think we could put up 21 points without Braylon or K2 on this team last year. And here a year later, and our offense is executing just fine without the superstar ego's. And even when guys got injured on the line---some other guy could step up. Team is much much better.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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LOL The thing I find most amusing is that there was a big push by some (very few really) wanting Lerner to sell the team. They cited his inability to find talent to run the team as the biggest reason. Of course, some folks thought that since he bought a Soccer team that he didn't care about the Browns..  Well, he's gone out and hired someone that has real cred in the football world.. Someone that commands instant respect for his past accomplishments.. Mike Holmgren.. Funny thing is, Holmgren is retaining the HC that Lerner hired and in turn the Staff that the HC hired... Shows you how much fans really know...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Daman...have you considered that there could be a larger picture than just next season?
I believe the Holmgren plan is much larger than most fans realize. While the average fan is looking at next season, focusing on whom is going to be the head coach... Holmgren is focusing on just one part of his overall plan knowing he has to get that part right, before he moves on to the second year of his overall plan.
I'm sure Holmgren is going to do a coaching review after next season too, when he will have a year on the job and also have his GM's input.
I do believe Holmgren is taking a "go slow" approach at this time, getting the right people hired in the most critical positions.
Just how many factors were involved in Holmgren's decision to retain Mangini?...more than meets the eye, I'm sure.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Quote:
LOL The thing I find most amusing is that there was a big push by some (very few really) wanting Lerner to sell the team. They cited his inability to find talent to run the team as the biggest reason. Of course, some folks thought that since he bought a Soccer team that he didn't care about the Browns..
Well, he's gone out and hired someone that has real cred in the football world.. Someone that commands instant respect for his past accomplishments.. Mike Holmgren..
Funny thing is, Holmgren is retaining the HC that Lerner hired and in turn the Staff that the HC hired...
Shows you how much fans really know...
I'm going to take the other side of the coin  ( surprise , surprise ) .. There is a very Loyal and knowledgeable fan base here in Dawgville ( and around the world ) Now they will differ on who , what and where ( when it comes to the team ) most of the time ... But the fans deserve , and have deserved a whole lot more than the " Lerners " have delivered in the past 10 seasons ..
I'm really quit tired of the fan base being bassted like a Turkey 
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962 |
Quote:
Daman...have you considered that there could be a larger picture than just next season?
Of course I have.. and I agree, the plan holmgren has is larger than what we see on the surface today... what it all means, how the thing will take shape is anyones guess....
I'm looking at the here and now..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962 |
To each his own Water,, fact remains is that they (the Lerners) have been consistent. Not showy, not controlling and certainly not trying to be something they are not.
They are wealthy enough to buy an NFL Franchise, honest enough to know what they don't know and smart enough to want to hire someone to run the show for them and for them to stay out of the limelight..
Up until Holmgren, every hire had a reasonable chance of success.. they all had the credentials (on paper) to be "the one" to make it all work. For a variety of reasons, that didn't happen for them..
In comes holmgren and while we don't know if it will work this time or not, again, on paper, he's got the credibility to make it so..
I think Randy has done everything he could to make this a winner.. it just hasn't worked yet..Maybe this will be the time...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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