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MH wouldn't just jerk the guy around if he knew he was a gonner...
If the first move was to interview Heckert, then that's more important than Mangini. That tells me I think Holmgren has an idea of what he wants to do, but if that plan doesn't fall into place, Mangini could stay. That leads to my belief the only way Mangini really stays is if it's convenient to Holmgren going into 2011.
Heckert wanted to have input on choosing his coach which is why he didn't want to come here before. I can't see a situation where he'd agree to come here being saddled with the guy he didn't love in the first place in Mangini.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If the first move was to interview Heckert,
He hasn't interviewed Heckert yet.
you had a good run Hank.
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Gotta go shortly but what I wouldn't give to hear his meeting with EM..
Remember he said he wasn't going to need to sell himself to MH..and what did Mary K. ask?
"Is EM going to have a chance to sell himself to U?"
His response: "Sure he will".
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I think the power base and the "check your ego at the door" sort of comments are telling.
Honestly, I think Holmgren will give him the shot but I'm pretty sure he came here thinking he was 100% going to fire Mangini. Mangini's 4 game winning streak is starting to cause doubt, but I think Holmgren is going to need convinced, IMO.
I think they're telling in a philosophical sort of way, but don't feel it's necessarily directed at Mangini specifically. I think the reports of his ego running rampant are greatly exaggerated, and in fact believe that he relies heavily on input from his coaches and assistants. He just wants good ones that believe in his philosophy of detail orientated, disciplined football. I don't see Holmgren being too far off that mark, and they may find that they're very similar philosophically.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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The question was, "Does Eric have a legit shot?"
The answer was, "Absolutely."
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He alreay knows who he wants.. The rest of the GM interviews will be for show and compliance. It's not like these people are strangers to him
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Quote:
Quote:
I think the power base and the "check your ego at the door" sort of comments are telling.
Honestly, I think Holmgren will give him the shot but I'm pretty sure he came here thinking he was 100% going to fire Mangini. Mangini's 4 game winning streak is starting to cause doubt, but I think Holmgren is going to need convinced, IMO.
I think they're telling in a philosophical sort of way, but don't feel it's necessarily directed at Mangini specifically. I think the reports of his ego running rampant are greatly exaggerated, and in fact believe that he relies heavily on input from his coaches and assistants. He just wants good ones that believe in his philosophy of detail orientated, disciplined football. I don't see Holmgren being too far off that mark, and they may find that they're very similar philosophically.
I don't know if they are exaggerated or not...I think it's telling that they are hiring a guy to make sure that doesn't happen. That's obviously the main focus of Holmgren is to make sure everyone is on the same page, which means it was not before or was not done well...
you had a good run Hank.
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If the first move was to interview Heckert,
He hasn't interviewed Heckert yet.
In terms of building the thing he wants, the first move is interviewing Heckert. Mangini is in the same position as he was on Sunday, which is to wait for Holmgren to follow through on the higher priorities.
Looks like the first move is Heckert, then go from there................
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I am not going to coach this team. We are going to hire people to do that.
Umm Freudian Slip there? lol
Mourg...In all honesty, it didn't sound to me like Holmgren knew the answer to that question yet. It sounded like he wanted to keep the coaching door open just a crack. He did comment on how he missed coaching.
As Holmgren said, this is all new to him so there is no way he is going to know the answer to the question about coaching in the future, at this point.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I think the power base and the "check your ego at the door" sort of comments are telling.
Honestly, I think Holmgren will give him the shot but I'm pretty sure he came here thinking he was 100% going to fire Mangini. Mangini's 4 game winning streak is starting to cause doubt, but I think Holmgren is going to need convinced, IMO.
I think they're telling in a philosophical sort of way, but don't feel it's necessarily directed at Mangini specifically. I think the reports of his ego running rampant are greatly exaggerated, and in fact believe that he relies heavily on input from his coaches and assistants. He just wants good ones that believe in his philosophy of detail orientated, disciplined football. I don't see Holmgren being too far off that mark, and they may find that they're very similar philosophically.
Agreed. He was talking about the WHOLE organization, including himself.
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...to make sure everyone is on the same page, which means it was not before or was not done well.
That's faulty logic, and an unfounded assumption.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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...to make sure everyone is on the same page, which means it was not before or was not done well.
That's faulty logic, and an unfounded assumption.
So then why was Holmgren brought on?
you had a good run Hank.
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j/c
Tough spot for Holmgren. Imagine you are him, with the decision to make: fire EM, or keep him.
EM has seemed to get the players on the same page as of late. They seem to be playing for him now. (not FOR him, but buying into his philosophy). Does MH fire him and bring in his "own" guy right away? Or does he give him a year, running what MH wants - and go from there. (keep in mind, MH knows he won't turn this around in 1 year - so does he "buy" a year by keeping Mangini - see what he can do? And have an excuse if Mangini fails? Or does he can the guy that seemed to be getting things headed in the right direction, bring in his own guy - who just might fall flat on his face his first year as well?)
Tough spot for MH.
My guess is MH keeps Mangini - and places strict guidelines on him: i.e. we're going WCO, we're hiring a new OC, MY gm does the drafting and trades and we get MY kind of players in here.
I bet Mangini is here next year - but handcuffed with what MH wants.
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NFL.com has the press conference up and running.
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Holmgren says Mangini "absolutely" has a chance to stay
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 5, 2010 4:26 PM ET
Mike Holmgren's welcome party has started in Cleveland, but it won't contain the big news that many expected. Eric Mangini will be around for at least another day.
"I met with Eric briefly, but it wasn't the meeting," Holmgren said.
Holmgren gave Mangini a list of things to think about before meeting Wednesday. Asked if Mangini had a legitimate chance to win Holmgren over, the Big Show said, "Absolutely, otherwise I wouldn't set the meeting."
Holmgren said the two men may meet a few times, but he hopes to decide Mangini's fate before the end of the week. Despite Holmgren's talk, the expectation is that Mangini will be fired.
This quote may be telling:
"The only way you win in the NFL is if the coach and the person in my position and the general manager are on the same wavelength."
No matter how many people suddenly support Mangini, Holmgren will want to avoid "fiefdoms" (his word), and turf wars. Mangini's track record of getting everyone on the same wavelength isn't strong.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I gotta say, I was surprised no one asked any questions about the QB situation.
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The team needed a president, and a legit GM. Holmgren is a football pro with a good mind and a great Rolodex of contacts. He was brought on because he's highly qualified to fill the position and make sure the organization keeps moving in the right direction.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
The team needed a president, and a legit GM. Holmgren is a football pro with a good mind and a great Rolodex of contacts. He was brought on because he's highly qualified to fill the position and make sure the organization keeps moving in the right direction.
Perhaps, but Lerner wanted a "serious, credible leader" before we fired Kokinis.
The GM was fired because he didn't want to do his job. Now whose fault that is is very much debatable.
Either way, the team was dysfunctional and Mangini has to check his ego.
you had a good run Hank.
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we're going WCO,
This is a good example of the over-simplification that has been so often bandied about, IMO. As Holmgren and Mangini have both stated more than once, elements of the WCO is in most offenses, and the current Browns offense is no different. Will he have input in the offense? Absolutely. Will it be a strict "WCO"? Highly doubtful. It will be a hybrid based on the coach's philosophy like it is on all teams. As Holmgren stated, Walsh's "WCO" was credited by Walsh to come from Paul Brown.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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And it's those kinds of posts that make people cringe, because everyone knows that when you say "WCO" you're talking about a "modified WCO" but that most people don't want to have to type it out. 
Just let people say WCO and be done with it.
Mike Holmgren is a WCO guy. He's going to hire WCO guys. He's going to install WCO coaches. We're going to run the WCO.
Now feel free to type out "modified" for each of those examples. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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He alreay knows who he wants.. The rest of the GM interviews will be for show and compliance. It's not like these people are strangers to him
Agreed 110%
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the team was dysfunctional and Mangini has to check his ego.
Koke was an inexperienced puppet and needed to go. The team was dysfunctional absolutely, but Mangini's ego seems checked just fine to me. Listen to the man speak. Listen to his pride at the growth of the team. And listen to the players, the unselfish players, talk about him. Again, I think the reports about his overblown ego are greatly overblown. JMHO
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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And it's those kinds of posts that make people cringe, because everyone knows that when you say "WCO" you're talking about a "modified WCO" but that most people don't want to have to type it out.
Just let people say WCO and be done with it.
Mike Holmgren is a WCO guy. He's going to hire WCO guys. He's going to install WCO coaches. We're going to run the WCO.
Now feel free to type out "modified" for each of those examples.
You may say all that, and that's fine, but that's not what he said. Soooo...
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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For what it's worth, Jim Donovan thinks Mangini is going to get fired. - Donovan cited the relationship between the Browns and Jets as an issue with Mangini and also the most recent draft.
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No, but I haven't picked a fight with you in a while, so I figured it was high time. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
we're going WCO,
This is a good example of the over-simplification that has been so often bandied about, IMO. As Holmgren and Mangini have both stated more than once, elements of the WCO is in most offenses, and the current Browns offense is no different. Will he have input in the offense? Absolutely. Will it be a strict "WCO"? Highly doubtful. It will be a hybrid based on the coach's philosophy like it is on all teams. As Holmgren stated, Walsh's "WCO" was credited by Walsh to come from Paul Brown.
Great post Cal,...  In today's world, I envision a dabble of everything,... built around the basic fundamental of running the football.
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For what it's worth, Jim Donovan thinks Mangini is going to get fired. - Donovan cited the relationship between the Browns and Jets as an issue with Mangini and also the most recent draft.
He might be right, he's got a 50/50 shot at being so. However, I would hope Holmgren is a bigger man than that and wants what's best for the team first and foremost.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Right. Basically, whatever works, based on personnel and the team we play next. That's the philosophy that works, and the one that Mangini subscribes to, from what I've been able to tell.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Watched the press conference again some more key points I missed before:
- "The only way you win in this league is if the coach and the person in my position, and/or the general manager are absolutely on the same wavelength. That's the only way you have a chance."
He then later finished this statement, "My goal is to have that feeling in this building. Is to have everyone thinking in a like manner, going in the same direction. Let's put all the egos aside fora second and let's get around the job of winning."
About struggling organizations:
"Why doesn't it work for them? It should be better, their record should be better, or whatever. And it boils down to, you can pinpoint it, is that, egos get in the way. Everyone establishes their little power base. And it destroys the team. It at least doesn't let them accomplish what they should accomplish."
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If I had to wildly speculate, based on what Holmgren said during the presser ... I'm guessing that Mangini will probably need to sacrifice his OC and other offensive coaches, to allow some of Holmgren's choices in the door. I think he's willing to keep Mangini, but he must be willing to succumb to a much smaller role, and almost have an "assistant coach" running the offense for him. I think a lot will depend on how flexible Mangini is willing to be in losing some of "his guys".
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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If the first move was to interview Heckert,
He hasn't interviewed Heckert yet.
In terms of building the thing he wants, the first move is interviewing Heckert. Mangini is in the same position as he was on Sunday, which is to wait for Holmgren to follow through on the higher priorities.
Looks like the first move is Heckert, then go from there................
I have said all along we could probably expect to see a GM before a coaching change. Based on what MH said today, it is a team effort. You would think the GM would have some voice in who coaches and who doesn't.
Chances are good Heckert or whoever hasn't spent a lot of time with mangini....maybe he will like the guy....same with some of the asst. coaches.
A lot of those guys....Smith as an example, are sticking up for Mangini right now, and I don't think Carl Smith is very concerned about where his next check comes from...he's been around and well respected...at minimum there is some top college program willing to have him coach ST for 250K a year as that and special asst to the HC. The guy knows his stuff.
We have some coaches that can coach. We got better as the season progressed, and it wasn't all due to superior players and determination.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I'm sorry to disappoint you OoooRahJoice, but building an offense around running the ball is now extinct.
The NFL is a passing league. Just look at this year's playoffs. Every team is built on passing besides the Bengals and Jets. All the other team's can run the ball, but their bread and butter is passing the ball.
This is why it is so exciting to have Holmgren in Cleveland. You pass the ball successfully you win. You need a good QB to pass the ball successfully. Holmgren can identify a good QB.
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If you're right that EM only has to let all his offense coaches go and let MH pick their replacements....I'd bet he'd be ok with that. EM is a defensive guy and would still be the head coach dictating resposibility and all that "process" stuff.
And anyway, it's still better than being fired.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Holmgren is going to be interviewing Heckert tomorrow and I wonder, if Heckert is the guy Holmgren wants, how much will Heckert's opinion factor into whom is going to be the Browns HC?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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This is not directed at you bro. We seem to have a board full of Miss Cleo's around here acting like they know what's going to happen  when in fact none of us know SQUAT. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
Quote:
we're going WCO,
This is a good example of the over-simplification that has been so often bandied about, IMO. As Holmgren and Mangini have both stated more than once, elements of the WCO is in most offenses, and the current Browns offense is no different. Will he have input in the offense? Absolutely. Will it be a strict "WCO"? Highly doubtful. It will be a hybrid based on the coach's philosophy like it is on all teams. As Holmgren stated, Walsh's "WCO" was credited by Walsh to come from Paul Brown.
And your post is a good example of not taking my post in its entirety. Perhaps you should re read what I posted. 
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I'm sorry to disappoint you OoooRahJoice, but building an offense around running the ball is now extinct.
The NFL is a passing league. Just look at this year's playoffs. Every team is built on passing besides the Bengals and Jets. All the other team's can run the ball, but their bread and butter is passing the ball.
This is why it is so exciting to have Holmgren in Cleveland. You pass the ball successfully you win. You need a good QB to pass the ball successfully. Holmgren can identify a good QB.
I'm not disappointed  It's a two-way street,...
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I think that is pretty much what it's going to come down to with Mangini...
Holmgren is gonna say this is what I want to do and how I believe the organization should be run...you with it or not.
I'm sure Holmgren will be impressed with Mangini but ultimately if you don't see eye to eye on things it won't work.
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Quote:
Holmgren is going to be interviewing Heckert tomorrow and I wonder, if Heckert is the guy Holmgren wants, how much will Heckert's opinion factor into whom is going to be the Browns HC?
We can safely assume that any GM is going to have a lot of say into who the HC is.
you had a good run Hank.
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