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Insulting to the fans? I'm perfectly fine with what has taken place. I'm not insulted. Speak for yourself.
If you don't find Cribbs team using the fans as leverage that's ok with me. I find it insulting.. But maybe your right, it might just be me.. dunno.
It's not. It's insulting that it's happening at all, though.
I want the guy paid, but there are bigger fish to fry.
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j/c
I have no problem with giving Cribbs more money. I also truly believe he'll get it, but the timing of this is so wrong. As others have pointed out, the guy in charge has been on the job for less than a week. He hasn't even filled his front office positions or decided the fate of his coach, and he's supposed to drop everything for a special teams guy?
If, after the organization is in place, things are at a stand still, then I could see such frustration. At this point, it's ludicrous.
The thought crossed my mind while reading all these posts that Holmgren does have a ton of credibility, though because I see little to no bashing of him over this. Could you imagine how Mangini would be getting blasted if HE was the one who came back with this offer to Cribbs?
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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I want the guy paid, but there are bigger fish to fry.
So do I.. he deserves more money,, No doubt about it. how much more,, hell if I know. but more.
As for the bigger fish to fry,, you betcha.. Holmgren has to find his GM, needs to determine who his HC will be, may need an entire new coaching staff and pro personnel staff (or at least some additions and subtractions), not to mention a possible host of internal positions that are as yet undefined.
That's all pretty common knowledge around these parts.. Cribbs knows it, his agents know it, the fans are aware of it.. They have waited this long, what's the problem with a few weeks more.
Josh is my kinda player.. unselfish, hard working, productive, not a distraction during the season, loyal and of high character. I want him here, I want him paid fairly.. maybe a little overpaid wouldn't hurt either. I know Mangini promised, I know that Savage promised,, I understand the frustration with that.. but it's NOT Holmgrens fault. he just started on Tuesday.,
Give it a little more time for cryin out loud...
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm still wondering what the rush is for Cribbs? Why did this NEED to get done today?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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The Browns own him for three more years. Cribbs only option is to sit if he doesn't like what he's being offered. No one twisted his arm to sign the contract he has now. It's what those same agents of his negotiated. If he has a complaint, he should focus it at them for getting him into this mess.
I agree with both statements, but i have a question-wont this kind of thing make us less attractive to free agents?
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I agree with both statements, but i have a question-wont this kind of thing make us less attractive to free agents?
Well, if you ask Django, no good ones will ever come here anyway, so it doesn't matter! 
In all seriousness, only time will tell. I would think as it stands now, all it looks like from the outside is an idiot player and his idiot agents who don't get that a new boss took over and hasn't even warmed his chair yet. I think maybe they know they won't get what they want from Holmgren so they're trying to live off of the promises of those who aren't making the decisions any more.
I don't know why they're afraid to have Holmgren look at film and decide. Maybe they're afraid that he'll see that Cribbs is NOT starting receiver quality and that will lessen his value. Also, as someone mentioned earlier, once the talent of the team is upgraded, Cribbs value goes back to that of a return man and sometimes wildcat QB.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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No one on this site has said he shouldn't be paid and paid fairly, at least non that I've read. Right now from a bargaining standpoint he's in a very bad position because of his existing contract that he signed. The management is new and has more important issues to deal with than a single players contract for the up-coming season. There's a time to deal with this but that time isn't now. Certainly crying to the public on his twitter page and having his agents send out ridiculous letters to the press isn't helping his situation one bit. It's only making him appear petty, at least in my eyes.
As far as FA's go, I think being able to play for a Holmgren run organization is going to generate enough interest from them to get them here.
#GMSTRONG
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It has little to do with what Holmgren sees on film. Dawn Aponte is the one that negotiates the numbers, and Holmgren has apparently told her to make sure the deal gets done, but has also placed a cap of $1.4 million/year on that negotiation. I say apparently, because this information is coming from Cribbs' camp and must be taken with a grain of salt.
I see this scenario ending with Cribbs being traded, and that bums me out.
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Just clicking..
I just had a thought that nobody has put out there,, or at least I haven't seen it..
Was there any kinda bonus proposed? I mean,, if they offered 1.4 million but with a bonus of some kind, wouldn't that make it a different ball game..
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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A lot of you are mad at Cribbs because he has a contract with three more years left on it, and you think he should honor it. Everyone fails to remember that Josh was an undrafted free-agent. He was making peanuts before he singed that first contract.
Was a 6-year contract good for him to sign? No, it probably wasn't. But Cribbs needed something, and at that point in his career the Browns held all the leverage.
I don't think anyone disagrees that Josh has outplayed his contract. He's done everything the right way: hasn't missed any games, hasn't complained to the media (even when Prime Time practically begs him to). He even came back the next week after getting injured in the Ravens game. His agent is obviously a moron, but that's beside the point.
Cribbs deserves better than the low-ball offer the Browns gave him. Don't play games with him, give him the respect he has earned.
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Was there any kinda bonus proposed? I mean,, if they offered 1.4 million but with a bonus of some kind, wouldn't that make it a different ball game..
That's a great question, Daman. Unfortunately all we're getting is the side from Cribbs' camp, so it remains to be seen. If a bonus was offered then the perception changes tremendously!
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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I can't possibly condone what Cribbs' agent has done. It was certainly a stupid mistake to talk like that at any point in negotiations let alone so early into it.
Nor do U try to pressure the new VP coming in who hasn't even assembled his own staff and finished what he wants to do with the HC..this agent likes to apply pressure and do his negotiating through the media..instead of being patient ..
So far that's three different people who have been in charge and all of them promising Cribbs a new deal while so far nothing is done as it keeps getting passed on to the next guy who is willing to take his time deciding the matter.
Each time some mitigating circumstance popped up..which had nothing to do with Cribbs.
He's like my 4 year who asks for something,and when I tell him I'm busy I'll get it for U in a bit,he comes right back:'Now daddy?,Huh..can I have that now??"
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Just clicking..
I just had a thought that nobody has put out there,, or at least I haven't seen it..
Was there any kinda bonus proposed? I mean,, if they offered 1.4 million but with a bonus of some kind, wouldn't that make it a different ball game..
The thought I put out there earlier was that the $1.4 million figure probably comes from the total value of the contract, including bonuses in addition to base salary, divided by the life of the deal. Maybe it was $8.4 over 6 years, maybe it was $7 over 5, etc. That's my guess.
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He's like my 4 year who asks for something,and when I tell him I'm busy I'll get it for U in a bit,he comes right back:'Now daddy?,Huh..can I have that now??"
That's a great analogy. My 5 year old is the same way. Her response after about 30 seconds is, "Did you forget, Daddy?"
Usually you expect adults to have a better understanding of how things work, but for some reason, Cribbs and his agents want it NOW. The my biggest question. OTA's don't start for quite a while, so this hardball crap doesn't hold a lot of weight.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Roster
Quarterbacks
No Player Pos Ht Wt Age Exp College 2009 Salary
3 Anderson, Derek QB 6-6 230 26 5 Oregon State $8,000,000
Overpaid by 5m
Quote:
Running Backs
35 Harrison, Jerome RB/KR/PR 5-9 205 26 4 Washington State $449,920
Under paid by 500k
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83 Estandia, Greg TE 6-8 265 27 3 UNLV $376,240
overpaid by 376k
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86 Gaines, Michael TE 6-4 277 29 6 UCF $3,805,280
overpaid by 1.5 M
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66 Fraley, Hank C 6-3 310 32 10 Robert Morris $1,650,000
i love him but if they are not going to pay him, overpaid by about 300k
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70 Hadnot, Rex RG 6-2 320 27 6 Houston $3,950,000
overpaid by 2m
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74 Kooistra, Scott T 6-6 335 29 7 North Carolina State $1,215,000
i dont even know who this guy is!! he's making more than cribbs?
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78 St. Clair, John RT 6-6 320 32 10 Virginia $1,375,000
overpaid by 1.375 m
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77 Womack, Floyd RG 6-4 328 31 9 Mississippi State $772,400
overpaid by 500 lbs of pork chops
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68 Yates, Billy LG 6-2 305 29 6 Texas A&M $1,186,720
i also dont know this guy. he's making more than cribbs?
Defensive Line
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71 Rubin, Ahtyba NT 6-2 330 23 2 Iowa State $387,465
underpaid by about 300k
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99 Williams, Corey DRE 6-4 320 29 6 Arkansas State $8,700,000
overpaid by 7m
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23 Poteat, Hank FS 5-10 195 32 8 Pittsburgh $730,000
overpaid by 700k
![[Linked Image from dcptest.com]](http://www.dcptest.com/kelly64.jpg)
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before we worry too much, what would Cribbs trade value be?
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Good stuff! 
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People can discuss the agent or the fact that Holmgren just started all they want.
But the truth is that the Brown's made Cribbs a low-ball offer, and Josh has a right to feel insulted by it. I would be, too. For his own sake, if he does leave, I hope he can someday make it on a team that's stable and won't jerk him around year after year. Must be extremely frustrating, especially when you have teammates making more than you and contributing absolutely nothing.
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He has every right to feel insulted by it. The Browns also have every right to expect him to play out the remaining THREE YEARS of his contract, no matter how crappy it is.
I haven't seen anything from anyone that says that Josh doesn't deserve more money.
The big problem I think we're all having is how he's going about it. They send you a low ball offer, you go public with it? C'mon.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Sorry, but I don't see it as any different than me trying to low-ball an offer on a house.
Doesn't excuse the Browns though. There's a lot of shame to spread.
I think I would have done a better job of trying to find out what Josh wanted. You (management) know he's going to play for you ONLY, so start from there. I don't care how valuable he is, he can be replaced. I don't WANT to do that, but he has his price whereat he will not play "below."
What is it, Josh ? Then I will see if it fits my budget.
IF, really big IF, we get this thing turned around and are not on the other end of poor offensive and defensive play, where we're always having to return kicks in the first place, anyone can PROVE that his future performance(s) will be as valuable to the team as his past have been,...then, OVERPAY the guy already, if for no other reason, to keep him off someone else's roster.
In the meantime, poor timing, poor judgement on both sides, and Holmgren should not have been so quick as to have played this game in his first 48 hours. Hopefully he's got a plan, and I'll bide my time.
All we can do folks,.....
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"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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so can Cribbs be traded to someone else?
Cribbs to the Iggles for Kolb?
Last edited by Line Judge; 01/07/10 10:44 AM.
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He has every right to feel insulted by it. The Browns also have every right to expect him to play out the remaining THREE YEARS of his contract, no matter how crappy it is.
I haven't seen anything from anyone that says that Josh doesn't deserve more money.
The big problem I think we're all having is how he's going about it. They send you a low ball offer, you go public with it? C'mon.
IF (and this is a big IF) Dawn really said "this is our final offer, it will always be the same" he has a right.
BUT as many others have stated here, this is negotiating like it is in most cases, Cribbs agents are steering him wrong. I love Josh and want to see him retire as a Brown, but the timing is wrong, and for that alone I would fire my agent!
Josh fire your agents! Even we can see that!
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I hope he can someday make it on a team that's stable and won't jerk him around year after year.
How are they jerking him around year after year? Didn't they sign him as an unrestricted free agent? Didn't they give him a long term deal, that he signed, as soon as they discovered the value in him? Aren't they at least willing to give him a raise in the middle of the contract he signed because that value has increased?
Look, I agree that he is worth more than the $1.whatever that the Browns offered but I don't really see how he has been jerked around year after year... I think he has been treated rather fairly up to this point.
yebat' Putin
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According to the article, Cribbs agent asked the Browns if they needed more time. They said the offer is going to be the same next month and the month after.
In order for this team to keep it's positive momentum, this situation needs to be resolved.
The team beat Pittsburgh en-route to a 4 game winning streak. Josh Cribbs broke an NFL record on the way. Things are going great, let's keep the momentum going.
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It bears keeping in mind that his agent also represents Joe Thomas and Eric Wright.
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I just have a really tough time believing all this.
If it's true, that means the Browns are setting a hard line that they will not renegotiate contracts with so many years remaining. Frankly, that's not such a bad policy.
I love Cribbs. As a Kent State alum myself, I really want him to stay on the Browns. And, I feel he's earned a raise.
But you know what Josh? This is the consequence of signing a long-term deal a couple years ago.
I have a feeling if he ends up sitting or we end up getting rid of him, Holmgren is really going to catch flak. But, I have to say, I don't have a problem with the policy of not renegotiating contracts with so many years left. You're just opening yourself up to so many headaches as soon as you do it.
For example, say we draft Eric Berry this coming Spring. Say he signs a contract for $10 million/year. Say he lights it up and makes the Pro Bowl. Should we now re-open his contract and pay him $12 million/year?
I recognize the differences with him and Cribbs, but I'm just saying.
If I'm the Browns, I would give him a substantial raise. But I also have to say that if I'm the Browns now, I say "well Josh, we were really just negotiating, but your agents really blew it. We're going to really evaluate just how much we want you on this team."
If his agents are going to play hardball, I would, too.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I can't possibly condone what Cribbs' agent has done. It was certainly a stupid mistake to talk like that at any point in negotiations let alone so early into it.
Nor do U try to pressure the new VP coming in who hasn't even assembled his own staff and finished what he wants to do with the HC..this agent likes to apply pressure and do his negotiating through the media..instead of being patient ..
So far that's three different people who have been in charge and all of them promising Cribbs a new deal while so far nothing is done as it keeps getting passed on to the next guy who is willing to take his time deciding the matter.
Each time some mitigating circumstance popped up..which had nothing to do with Cribbs.
He's like my 4 year who asks for something,and when I tell him I'm busy I'll get it for U in a bit,he comes right back:'Now daddy?,Huh..can I have that now??"
This might be why the Brown have been such a bad team since the return, unable to do more than one thing at a time. Thats just down right bad management, maybe Holmgren will fix this, lets hope. Also note Holmgren said "We've been in contact with his representatives even when I was in Arizona."
link: http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/article.php?id=10395
So this is not out of the Blue.
How many Teams are calling Holmgren today, asking what the Browns would take for a trade for Cribbs, I'd say 25 to 31.
What good is Cribbs without the heart, the Browns may have blown this one, big time. The Steeler, teammates, fans and coachs all same the same thing. "We didn't lose the Browns we lost to Cribbs." jk
Cribbs will no longer push player to win, he will become Edwards in the locker room, and he will get traded, which it sounds like what he wants, out of Cleveland. 
Go Browns !!!!
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j/c
I find it real curious there is no mention of signing bonus, isn't there ALWAYS a signing bonus? Would like to hear the FO side of this.
Cribbs is a valuable asset, but I think he may be somewhat overvrated because of his big-play factor. There is also that return guys do not generally have long careers. He is built differently than most returners, however - might last longer.
Was he completely off the coverage teams this year?
They keep trying to find other positions for him, other than wildcat nothing else has worked out.
I'd love to keep him, but I'd rather have a solid RT. Or LB. Or WR. or CB. Or even a QB who is just slightly below average. We need every-down players, and the return-guy is where you often develop a CB or WR. Trade Josh, we get a draft choice and an extra roster spot for someone who may become valuable later.
Having said all that, I'd still rather work out a reasonable deal.
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before we worry too much, what would Cribbs trade value be?
Not sure, but I bet many if not all are calling to see what the Browns want for him, this morning.
Welcome to the Browns Holmgren. 
Go Browns !!!!
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Disclaimer: This is Devil's Advocate. I do NOT want to get rid of Cribbs, not at all.
[Devil's Advocate]
What if Cribbs is a product of a very good special teams unit?
I will say that he is a total beast on the coverage units. There's no masking that.
But what if his returns are opened up a lot by the guys around him? He has tackle breaking ability, no doubt. But is there someone else out there who could do just as much in the return game? That I just don't know.
He is extremely fun to watch. Every time he gets the ball, it could turn into something big.
But is he just a product of good ST play?
[/Devil's Advocate]
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Cribbs is a valuable asset, but I think he may be somewhat overvrated because of his big-play factor. There is also that return guys do not generally have long careers. He is built differently than most returners, however - might last longer.
He does have other "added-value," but not to the tune of 'you-can't play-without-me' money.
Just gotta hope that if he walks (is traded, whatever), he goes to the NFC.
Hello, Jerry ?
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before we worry too much, what would Cribbs trade value be?
Not sure, but I bet many if not all are calling to see what the Browns want for him, this morning.
Welcome to the Browns Holmgren.
And that may be a consideration. His contract is a bargain so a trade would be easy. Let the other guys deal with his agent. It's not what I want to see happen but it's a possibility. I'd be wanting top value for such a deal because Cribbs is worth it. "You want him? How bad?"
I think Cribbs' agent needs to get a clue. The deal will most likely get done but how's it going to happen with no GM in place, a decision yet to be made on the HC, and a new President or whatever he's called who doesn't even have his own office yet? I would advise Cribbs and his agent to take a couple of weeks on some particular island and let the Team get it's collective rear in gear. It's not like his value is going to drop any time soon.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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I think Cribbs' agent needs to get a clue. The deal will most likely get done but how's it going to happen with no GM in place, a decision yet to be made on the HC, and a new President or whatever he's called who doesn't even have his own office yet? I would advise Cribbs and his agent to take a couple of weeks on some particular island and let the Team get it's collective rear in gear. It's not like his value is going to drop any time soon.
I agree. It's like I keep saying, what the heck is the hurry here for Cribbs?
He signed the contract under Savage. Savage said we'll redo the deal. Savage gets fired. Mangini says we'll redo the deal. Mangini has been emasculated in his power and may very well get the boot, too. Holmgren is in charge now, and hopefully soon, someone else will be making the calls with Holmgren.
You know what Josh, the guys who are in charge now have promised you NOTHING. I'm sure they recognize your worth to the team.
So, Cribbs should have contacted Holmgren and said "we want to sit down and have serious discussions with you...once you're settled."
The offseason is very long. That's lots of time to give Holmgren the chance to get his feet wet here, put his people in charge, worry about FA and the draft, and then renegotiate.
But now it's some sort of emergency that they didn't get the deal done one day after the season?
Once again, what's the freaking rush?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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How are they jerking him around year after year? Didn't they sign him as an unrestricted free agent? Didn't they give him a long term deal, that he signed, as soon as they discovered the value in him? Aren't they at least willing to give him a raise in the middle of the contract he signed because that value has increased?
All those things are true, however I still think he's been jerked around:
2008 - Savage says to him to prove his worth this season and he'll rework the deal. Ok... Josh does that. No deal though because Savage is out.
2009 - Mangini says to him to prove his worth this season and he'll rework the deal. Ok... Josh does that.. AGAIN... and now gets tossed basically a non-offer.
When you promise someone something for services rendered, don't deliver, and then do it AGAIN, then you're jerking him around... at least that's the way I see it. Sure, there's reasons for that... the main one is because we're such a dysfunctional franchise that we can't keep our front office in line for more than a year which is pathetic.
If I were an employee and the same thing happened to me, you can bet I'd be looking for a new place to work. Someplace where when someone made me a promise, I could at least be reasonably confident that he'll be there a year later to make good on it!
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Also note Holmgren said "We've been in contact with his representatives even when I was in Arizona."
And?
Contact doesn't mean numbers were thrown out.
How many Teams are calling Holmgren today, asking what the Browns would take for a trade for Cribbs, I'd say 25 to 31.
And I'd say I wouldn't care to guess..dude might get a contract extension or a bonus..they aren't going to just rip up his contract and redo it..but MH isn't going to be pressured while he's cooking up the staff...
And listening to his agent right now..he seems over- bearing ,a nag and a cry baby..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/07/10 11:38 AM.
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Practice Squad
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http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cleveland-browns-joshua-cribbs-contract-010510Agent: Browns' Cribbs set to holdout unless he gets new deal Alex Marvez Alex Marvez is a Senior NFL Writer for FOXSports.com. He's covered the NFL for the past 15 seasons as a beat writer and is the former president of the Pro Football Writers of America. PRINT EMAIL RSS ADD THIS 66 comments » Updated Jan 7, 2010 5:15 AM ET There is new team leadership in Cleveland but the same old contract problems remain with star kick returner Joshua Cribbs. Cribbs agent J.R. Rickert told FOXSports.com on Wednesday that a holdout and trade demands are coming if the Browns don’t change their negotiating tune. Rickert said new Browns president Mike Holmgren has offered Cribbs a take-it-or-leave-it multiyear contract extension that averaged $1.4 million a season with the potential of reaching $2 million through incentives. That was unacceptable to a player who set the NFL’s all-time career scoring record on kickoff returns during the 2009 season. The deal would average less than what the NFL’s nine other highest-paid kickoff returners are earning even with incentives, Rickert said. “It’s time for the organization to step up and do the right thing for this kid,” Rickert said. “If the situation isn’t properly addressed, Joshua Cribbs will not set foot in that facility come March (for offseason workouts) and will demand a trade on the first day of the league year.” Signed by the Browns as a college free agent in 2005, Cribbs had inked a six-year, $6.77 million deal after a standout rookie season. Rickert, who wasn’t representing Cribbs when that pact was signed, has unsuccessfully negotiated with two previous management regimes for a new contract. The Cribbs camp also contends Cleveland’s front office had previously agreed to reward him for outplaying his current contract. The Browns declined to respond to Rickert’s comments, but Holmgren did address the issue during a Tuesday news conference announcing his official hiring. reaching $2 million through incentives. Wow take it or leave it. Everyone still loving Holmgren the GM, maybe he was coach for a reason?
Say good bye to Cribbs 
Go Browns !!!!
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Legend
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In case anybody is wondering, Washington and Detroit are the teams that pick in front of the Browns in the draft that have the worst team KO Return stats, 24th and 26th.
Doubt either are in a position, or would want to deal.
The lowest ranked playoff team is Philladelphia, at # 29.
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Quote:
reaching $2 million through incentives. Wow take it or leave it. Everyone still loving Holmgren the GM, maybe he was coach for a reason?
Say good bye to Cribbs
THAT'S THE POINT!
He isn't the GM! He is the President! He's trying to hire the GM, can't he get the time to do that?
Either way, losing a special teams player *albeit the best special teams player in NFL History* is still okay. If he wants to be traded, it really stinks but oh well.
you had a good run Hank.
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Oh boy.. Josh really should look at Holmgren's history when dealing with players who hold out. If he wouldn't give in to one of the great left tackles of all time-- Walter Jones, he definitely isn't going to give in to Cribbs.
I'm just going to throw this out there. Cribbs is 26. He'll be 27 before the start of next season. He has 3 years left on his current deal, and we've all seen what happens do some players right around the 30 mark. That most notably applies to running backs but the NFL in general has a short lifespan.
All of the arguments I've seen are that it's only fair that Josh should make more money, and I agree that he has significantly out-performed his contract. Does it make good football sense to give him a big extension though? Honest question. I don't think it does.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum cribbs' agent: "we're done"
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