Quote: I am just willing to look past the negatives since the positives are numerous.
Again, no guru here, but it seems to me that every QB that has been drafted high in the last 10 or so years has had something wrong with him... Hands too small, not mobile enough, too mobile, won't stand and deliver, lack of arm strength, slow release, accuracy issues, can't take a hit.....etc etc.
So, Is there such a thing as a Perfect QB? I don't remember the rub on Payton Manning,,but I bet if you go back, someone said something negative about him,,, that I will GUARANTEE..
Sometimes, I'm REALLY REALLY Glad I'm not a GURU..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Morning, Damanshot! Hope enough of my coffee has run uphill to type sense! I suspect that some of the lower ranking is what will need to be finalized in combine time. He has some odd balance and footwork things, a mortar as far as distance. Not a sweet throwing motion, but he gets it there just like some SideWinder Kosar passes or such. He has accuracy, but can throw behind, take a bit too long to vote, and his arm speed (not release) is at times less than the NFL ideal. His feet forgive mistakes and his size is attractive in a running O. His team and its offensive system helped maximize his abilities and production. Above average by college standards, which often is of little guage in the NFL. Heady gamer, and I think that there is football talent like football speed; he is very good, but not quite great until he proves otherwise IMO. Late first perhaps
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
Quote: It's like I said....it goes beyond Tebow, so it just isn't homerism.
I am 100% convinced the drop back qb will soon be extinct.
So do you want to be the first on the train or do you want to keep monkeying around with the DA's and BQ's of the world??
Twenty years from now, QB like that will be scoffed.
Peen...I understand your a Gator fan, but now it appears you are trying to say Tebow and his style is the prototype of a new age NFL QB.
You contend that the drop back passer is going to be history...I believe your wrong and for good reason.
...A QB that plays like Tebow did in college, running the ball and moving around in the pocket and rollouts...all this leads to more contact for the QB...we are talking heavy, career threatening contact.
...the QB, is the player that most teams make their largest investment in..those investments are protected by big, nasty offensive linemen...you start moving that QB around where those Olinemen can't protect them...guess what's gonna happen?
...what type of QB works best in the NFL...Tim Tebow type...or...Kurt Warner type..or Brett Favre..or Joe Montana type?
Peen, Tebow will have to learn to be a good "drop back" QB if he's going to have a career in the NFL, IMO.
I didn't see a lot of Gator games outside of the spot light games but obviously he has always been impressive as a football player. He pretty much reminded me a lot of Ben Roth...somebody who could get off of would be sackers and make teams pay.
As for the draft...I really never watched him to break down his game and analyze him until this last bowl game. Forget about statistics - thats not how I try to analyze.
His throwing technique is bad but I wouldn't try to improve it too much to make it right. Just correct the HITCH...the bounce of the arm before bringing it back. Its a tell for DBs to close in on the route and adds a little length to the throw.
As far as that side arm to 3/4 release...if he feels comfortable throwing like that - I wouldn't try to change everything. After all look at the motion of Rivers tomorrow not exactly a thing of beauty.
Although I would like to see him throw with proper technique.
Footwork is not bad at all...sure he's been out of shotgun but he seems to be somebody who is coachable and athletic enough to pick something up like taking the snap from under center.
Arm strength...nothing amazing like Jamarcus Russel but he possesses a pretty strong arm...a lot of that is in shoulder strength and he has pretty strong shoulders.
Accuracy...he is very accurate and he is able to square his shoulders even if his legs are moving in another direction and keep that right arm-to-shoulder thing relaxed to make the off the norm throws.
Running...we all know his running ability which I would hope to keep it to a minimum - but it could be a dangerous variable to use inside the Red Zone and especially on the Goal line...from either a power Sneak to a off tackle option to a boot-leg run/pass option off of play fake.
Back to his accuracy...I saw him hit some incredibly small windows (NFL like windows) right on the mark in that bowl game.
Patience - it was real nice to see him stay in the pocket and show a calm coolness and patience to let patterns develop and the window open up to have the confidence and strength to step up into the pocket and throw very accurately as the congestion set in to the point he could feel the breathing against his neck.
Needless to say I was very impressed...I'm not so sure about where he will go in the draft...I doubt he will be there for us in the 2nd round but if he is I think that could be one of the biggest steals of this draft and maybe one of the biggest steals the Browns ever had in a draft.
At #7...I don't think so...But I could see Heckert moving up (with the Eagles ) to get him???
JMHO...I love Bradford another who should move up the board once he starts throwing in front of coaches n scouts. Along with the LB McClain (Bama)
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Haven't read every post in this thread but here goes......
Peen, we know you love Tebow but there is virtually no way the Browns would take him before the 3rd round. And probably not until the 5th if at all. We have too many other holes to fill.
He just has too many flaws as a QB to warrant being taken any higher than the 4th round, IMO.
Having said that, I'm also relatively sure that someone will have tasted enough of the Tebow kool-aid to pick him by the end of the 3rd.
I think your theory that Tebow is the QB of the future is colored by the fact that Timmy is from UF and you'd love him to succeed. But who knows, you could be right.
I'll certainly be interested to see what happens.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
Quote: I see a pickup truck with a 426 Hemi ... I see a game-changer. I'm tired of watching the opponents defense dictate our offense. I want to see our opponents try to deal with the x-factor. I don't know much about releases or footwork or spotting the ability to read defenses, but I know an athlete and a winner when I see one. He can be coached to do the things he needs to do better. He can become a dropback passer, learn the 3-step, 7-step, 23-step dropback. He can learn to smooth out his release, if its a problem (which I don't necessarily believe it is). Tebow is a damn football player and I wouldn't mind if we took him at 7.
Great post, but at what price ? It would be a big gamble, the "unknown." But, paying the price for this kid's heart and attitude way overshadows whatever "limiations" his physical skills restrict his quarterbacability (new word.) Seven is too high, for me, when we still need to finish the OLine required to assist and protect such an asset as Tebow.
I don't know if he makes it past 11 - Jags almost have to take him. If he goes at 11, he's not that much of a reach at 7. I think we can address the OL in later rounds. I'll trust Holmgren and Heckert on this one.
Quote: I don't know if he makes it past 11 - Jags almost have to take him. If he goes at 11, he's not that much of a reach at 7. I think we can address the OL in later rounds. I'll trust Holmgren and Heckert on this one.
IF Jax takes Tebow at that spot it's gonna be specifically a PR move because he's a "Local Boy"...
And that folks will be a serious 3-5 year down fall for Jax...
No way in hell is Tebow gonna be a Top 11 on anyones draft board...
His throwing technique is bad but I wouldn't try to improve it too much to make it right. Just correct the HITCH..
Tebow has the longest windup that I have ever seen. His throwing motion begins with the ball at his butt most of the time. Tebow must learn how to throw the ball all over again.
Given Heckerts history,, you may get your wish..,... I have no issue with that.. none at all....
I know it might seem like I'm pimping Tebow,, I'm not.... I'm questioning the wisdom of knocking the guy down for a few faults.. He's a player.. I don't think you can question his heart... He's big, got physical skills.. could probably even play TE. There is just more to this kid than a bad throwing motion.. way more...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
For me,, it doesn't matter if we take him.. I know we need a QB, I know we can't afford to miss on the next choice... If the brain trust feel he's the man,. cool,, either way, I'm not qualified to say,, in fact, there probably aren't any fans on this site that are truly qualified..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: His throwing technique is bad but I wouldn't try to improve it too much to make it right. Just correct the HITCH..
Tebow has the longest windup that I have ever seen. His throwing motion begins with the ball at his butt most of the time. Tebow must learn how to throw the ball all over again.
Good kid, smart kid, teachable kid, hard working kid...I leave anything out?
Hey, you never know. I'd rather have a big project later in the draft than a possible top 5 guy who's shoulder is toast before he even takes a pro snap.
People can read whatever they like into retaining Dumbell as our OC, but make no mistake about what direction we're heading here. We've brought in a WCO Czar who has hired a WCO GM. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that is the direction we'll be going in.
No matter how the various versions of the WCO have evolved, the most basic fundamental remains, which is that many of the passes are very short, very quick throws based on fast reads.
So, how does that effect a QB? You better be able to make quick reads, and you better be able to get the ball out quick. I don't know if Tebow has the mind or not to make quick NFL reads. What I do know is that because his release is so damned long, it's going to negate the effectiveness of many of the short, basic routes fundamental to the WCO.
Example: Everyone has seen one staple of the WCO, which is where the QB takes the snap, takes two steps, and fires to the receiver who hasn't really done anything but take a step forwards then a step back. The basic premise is that the CB is playing a little off, so the receiver has time to catch the ball and make a move to get past him. Tebow's windup is one physical step by a defender slower than most releases in the NFL, and though it may appear on the surface that one step wouldn't make a difference, it makes all the difference in the world.
There's also another problem, which is that he's one of these QB's who has been allowed to pat the ball before he winds up. That's a fundamental problem developed early on in most QB's careers, and is very difficult to change once in their 20's.
Here's a video clip of Tebow's "new" release (if this is the new one, God, how slow was the old one?). Take a long look at not only his windup, but also at the pat he has to put on the ball to trigger his throwing motion.
Now, the next guy to look at is Bradford. This is an NFL release, and one of the fundamental differences between the two QB's.
Unfortunately, the only things on Youtube I could find are highlight reels, not practice reels, but this isn't to show how great Bradford is. It's to show his NFL release.
Take note of time reference points 1:09, 1:28, 2:00, and 2:42. A very telling frame is at 5:50, where he's scrambling and throwing. There's no windup there. It's just a flick from his shoulder.
That's the difference between an acceptable NFL release, and one that is going to be a problem in Tebow's.
This isn't Tebow bashing. It's simply honest analysis for those that might not have a good frame of reference.
There isn't anything here saying Tebow can't succeed. However, his release is going to hinder him severely, and so it's tough to overcome something like that in the likely offensive system we're going to be running.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
I'm going to stay out of the Bradford talk, one reason is I don't think there's a chance he hell he's there at 7 and two, it would only be homer speak coming from me anyway.
Hehehe.............That comment honestly wasn't intended for you but as a comment in general, since I've made my position known regarding Bradford. I didn't want it taken that I was pimping one guy over the other. I do feel Bradford is the right guy, but that was more to put pictures and video to all the talk. It's easy to read that he has a slower/longer release, but I thought it was important to have a side-by-side comparison to explain it all.
To be fair, and to offer yet another comp, here's one of Steve Young. Of course there are natural comparisons because both are left-handed and mobile, so it's worth comparing their releases.
Young had a little longer release than Bradford does, but it's a little quicker than Tebow's. Even though Young also had a ball-pat, it's quicker than Tebow's, not dropping so far down below his hip.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Tebow has the longest windup that I have ever seen. His throwing motion begins with the ball at his butt most of the time.
btw...pretty much what a hitch is and what I said. And note Collins of the Titans actually was able to maintain a pretty good career with a HITCH (windup) but when he's on the move I'm sure he'll drop that arm...btw 90% of swatted balls from DL on the backside is when the QB drops the arm.
JMHObservations - and just for the record...I want Bradford
Last edited by eotab; 01/17/1001:04 PM.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
One thing is clear, we do not have a QB on this roster worth a nickel. Both these guys need to move on, Mostly to clear the air. I do not think this team is ready for a rookie QB. I would much rather bring in a vet such as a McNabb or a Hasselback and put my trust in Heckert and MH to find that Future QB in the draft or on another teams roster.
We might have to package a QB such as Quinn with a Rogers to Philly for one. It would be awesome to get McNabb here, which would allow us to further improve other areas of this team through the draft and develop this offense more, more specifically the passing game. You cannot expect guys like MoMass and Robiskie to develop properly without using them. JMO
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
This has been a very informative thread. There already is a youtube video of Bradford and Tebow.
I figured I would add videos for two young guys that possibly could be an option (Kolb/Keenum) I could not find a good video of Kolb in the NFL, however here is a highlight video from Houston. I am no expert, but it appears he has a quick release, especially at 1:49 and 1:59.
And I have read some talk of fans being interested in Case Keenum. Here is a highlight video for him.
I love his release. The ball is out quick and is very clean. Good accuracy and athletic ability. I would love to get him. I have a feeling the guy is going to be a stud.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
I was looking up some other quarterbacks that will be available later in the draft.
I do not know much about this guy, apparently he is 6-5, 250lbs and will be at the combine.
He played at 1AA school so people will talk about the lack of competition.
Looking at this video, he seems to have a strong arm. The first pass, and then a couple where he is rolling right and throwing across his body. He seems to take off and run a lot. Not sure if that is the designed play...
He's long and winds up...That is extremely hard to change and is almost impossible to change...
His windup comes down at the knee and comes up..it is unconventional,time consuming..when you have to basically overhaul a QB's mechanics ,dude isn't worth it..
I really don't see us going for an aging vet QB...that doesn't seem to be the style of MH.
I know Wolf had Favre in mind as in he tried to move up and get him in the draft (I believe with the Jets?) and Atlanta picking one spot before them took him.
So when he took over for the Packers and hired Holmgren I'm sure he confirmed his views bouncing it on MH but MH was more a Confirmation of what Wolf already thought. Still he observed how it was done.
Then Holmgren went to Seattle...did he go and get an aging FA to take over the helm of his TEAM...no he went and made a deal on a QB he was very familiar with and acquired Hasseback.
Now here in Cleveland...in a long term build up - he's going to invest in AGING Vets to get a couple of good years that are left in their prime (and in Hasselback's case I use the term "PRIME" loosely) both get injured a lot and that probably will increase as their age increases!
I would be shocked if we went with the Veteran investment.
Kolb or somebody of that nature - look for one who is being developed under a stud. But not many out there Leinhart??? And Warner is looking to maybe retire.
So in my thinking...we might Groom BQ, if we get Kolb BQ is obsolete and we'll get something for him...DA too expensive so release him...use some of that money and get Carr FA as the backup...Kolb, Carr and Ratliff as our QBs.
Or we got with the draft and get Bradford who I love and think he will be a stud if groomed correctly and with MH here I'm confident in that - Start BQ and see how he progresses while Bradford gets his one or two year Transformation into one of the BEST QBS!!! - Hopefully BQ will get better and can bring a pretty penny for us in trade when Bradford is ready.
DA? Release him - Maybe keep him if we want some pick for BQ in this draft after we invest in another.
I just don't see MH being confident that either QB is the MAN...if one is to be groomed also because he didn't get his escalators (Mangini is smarter than we give credit for) we can afford to keep him and groom him. Also makes him trade able. BQ makes those escalators it would be hard to move him...and hard to say well lets groom him some more.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
He may just decide that restructuring is best for him.
I wouldn't mind keeping him as a backup. He's the perfect QB to come in for a game or two stretch and hold the fort down.
Of course, if the starter is down for any significant amount of time, all bets are off. But I wouldn't be torn up about it if they asked him to restructure and stay on the team as a backup.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
Quote: Why would Anderson restructure his contract?
Couple of reasons off the top of my head,,,
1. I don't think we could trade him because of the salary number.. not without a redo.. JMO
2. What team would want him? I mean, someone will I'm certain, but will they want him for that kinda money,, doubtful.. JMO
3. Staying here, with Holmgren in the top spot might actually work in his favor careerwise... so it may just be smarter to take a lower number to remain.. again, it's JMO....
4. What if nobody wants him at all.. Don't laugh, it could happen. Wouldn't be the first time a former starting QB found himself without a team to go to.
Just a couple of UNTHOUGHT OUT; comments.. who knows.. maybe holmgren thinks he's the answer and trades Quinn... Dunno
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: Why would Anderson restructure his contract?
Couple of reasons off the top of my head,,,
1. I don't think we could trade him because of the salary number.. not without a redo.. JMO
2. What team would want him? I mean, someone will I'm certain, but will they want him for that kinda money,, doubtful.. JMO
3. Staying here, with Holmgren in the top spot might actually work in his favor careerwise... so it may just be smarter to take a lower number to remain.. again, it's JMO....
4. What if nobody wants him at all.. Don't laugh, it could happen. Wouldn't be the first time a former starting QB found himself without a team to go to.
Just a couple of UNTHOUGHT OUT; comments.. who knows.. maybe holmgren thinks he's the answer and trades Quinn... Dunno
None of those other than 4 make any sense for DA.
Unless the Browns are willing to cut him and he is 100% sure he couldn't even get a back up job, then he would consider it.
Either way, DA is not going to give up his money no matter what the fans or organization want.
What if DA knows he'll never be a quality NFL qb? If it were me, I'd take all the cash I can get right now. No way would I restructure for less. He'll never be able to make that kind of money again.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
Quote: None of those other than 4 make any sense for DA.
Sure they do.. perhaps I'm not making it clear however..
1. I don't think we could trade him because of the salary number.. not without a redo.. JMO
My reasoning is that he may not be tradeable with that salary making him a cut instead of a trade.. Now, let me ask you, if he gets cut,, what do you think the likely hood is that he would get anything close to the number he's scheduled to make?
I think it's likely he'll get league minimum.. so it would make sense to redo his deal with us.. even if it's just to be traded...
2. What team would want him? I mean, someone will I'm certain, but will they want him for that kinda money,, doubtful.. JMO
Goes along the lines of 1. I just have serious doubts that anyone would pay him that much.. He's gonna lose money,,no matter what he does...
3. Staying here, with Holmgren in the top spot might actually work in his favor careerwise... so it may just be smarter to take a lower number to remain.. again, it's JMO....
Staying here may or may not be an option.. Dunno.. Gonna be up to Holmgren and his brain trust.. but either way, I don't see them keeping him at the big money number he's supposed to make next season.. do you?
Quote: Either way, DA is not going to give up his money no matter what the fans or organization want.
It may not be his choice.. in fact, I dare say it will NOT be his choice. Unless holmgren, mangini and Heckert feel he is the guy they want to cast thier lot with, he's not gonna make that money...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
You guys did a great job of breaking down the issue (the main issue) with TT.
This covers it.
No, you can't get him to change his motion and expect him to do it at the NFL level, at NFL speed.
If the Jags don't take him, don't be surprised if one of the better teams, at the end of the first, with a creative OC take him. A team that can afford to gamble will find a million and one uses for TT --
Just not as an every down QB
Barry Bonds Check Roger Clemens Check Mark McGuire Check Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo (Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
) to get him???
