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I recognized that, and unfortunately can't delete a post. But yeah, I don't believe anything the guy says..........
It's between me and Tyler and I sent a PM about it to him. All he has to do is admit that he lied.
I feel like Derden has lied in many of his posts. I've been on this board a long time, as has him. He has written many rediculous posts which make me realize that he's an intelligent guy (in fact football-wise we really agree on most things) but a liar. And lying about your life on a message board is pretty lame in my book.........
I guess calling someone out in a thread like that about a different issue is lame too. But if he lies about that, then how can you believe that he grew up in a house with guns on workbenches, in corners, and in dressers?
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Fair nuf.
Dawgtalkers should put in a "Fight to the Death" forum, strictly for verbal sparring....complete with old school star trek fight music.
Combatants, by rule, will be required to administer at least one karate chop.
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Legend
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Now we are grown up and we see shooting after shooting. There are adults killing adults, kids killing adults, kids killing kids, and kids killing themselves. There are murders, suicides, and tragic accidents. People are dying.
Its really sad to see this. And the answer so many are proposing is enacting more gun laws.
It is truly sad to see. People have lost the fundamental respect for firearms---and in related news, people have lost a lot of respect for life itself.
That is the key.. a gun is a tool, like a knife or a screwdriver or a chainsaw.. it's a tool with a function that it performs... the key to the murders is not about respecting guns, it's about respecting life.
yebat' Putin
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Dang...Tyler...I gotta thank you for writting that, excellent, being an aviod hunter, I too grew up around guns, and we also respected them, we'd see a gun in the corner, we didnt play with it, even though we knew it was unloaded my parents were responcible, and even knowing it wasnt loaded, we like you always treated it like it was, your right, people have lost the respect factor when it comes to gun and actually when it comes to just about everything unless it pertains to them. anyway.....Excellent job, thanks again...
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Legend
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You received the right training while being raised.
Gun safety, like balancing a checkbook, ought to be as important to society as the Pythagorean Theorum, and as such, all three should be taught in school. Instead, we argue with the District about the value of Harry Potter as a Language Arts reading.
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I won't go so far as to say that gun training should be a mandatory curriculum for school kids but I certainly don't think it should be villified like it is in a lot of schools.
yebat' Putin
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Here's an interesting article I just received discussing the correlation of increased gun ownership to a decrease in homicides in 2009. More guns, less crime in 2009 Now that 2009 has come to an end, giving America time to take stock of the year that was, we can once again see the true relationship between guns and crime. Driven by fear of Barack Obama's anti-gun past, Americans bought more guns in 2009 than in any other year on record, yet homicide and violent crime rates plummeted nationwide. The most striking decrease took place in Washington D.C., which had the lowest number of homicides since 1964 despite the end of the city's longtime ban on private ownership of firearms. Not surprisingly, the city's administration and the anti-gun doomsayers were wrong. As any clear-thinking person knows, law-abiding residents of Washington D.C. are perfectly suited to owning guns for self-defense. The Chicken Little predictions of mass killings and bloody scenes of gun owners running amok never materialized, and the panic about the presence of guns in people's homes was much ado about nothing. Ohio saw a surge in the number of concealed carry licenses issued statewide, which led to more guns on the streets. Despite this increase in public firepower, nearly all the major cities saw a huge drop in homicides during 2009. Only Cleveland saw an increase, and that was largely due to the serial killer who single-handedly committed 11 of the city's murders. Overall, homicide rates across America hit lows not seen in decades. Even though the country enjoys historic low homicide rates, the anti-gun community continues to circulate press releases claiming an unprecedented level of gun related mayhem. In their eyes, if homicide rates go up, it's because people own guns. If homicide rates go down, it's because gun control is working (but not well enough to stop them from continuing their assault on the right to bear arms.) Their misguided approach once again proves how out of touch they are with the true pulse of America. How the anti-gun community will spin their most recent public relations disaster remains to be seen, but you can be sure they will never admit that gun control is a failed social experiment. Establishment media outlets are reporting the decrease in crime, but are leaving out the fact that it happened while gun sales were skyrocketing. Omitting the surge in gun sales might be an honest mistake, or might simply be an oversight, but all the years of one-sided reporting on the gun issue has poisoned the relationship between mainstream reporters and gun owners. Adding to the rift is the willingness of the establishment media to regurgitate every ridiculous press release issued by the anti-gun community. Most recently, they fed the media stories about how concealed carry license holders are going on killing sprees across the nation. Yet, when the end-of-year crime rates showed a huge decrease in violent crime, mainstream reporters never questioned the anti-gun group's unfounded ravings. The convergence of sharply reduced homicide rates and a huge increase in gun sales in 2009 are a key victory for the pro-gun side in the debate over gun rights in America. For years, anti-gun crusaders argued that if more guns are on the street, more gun crimes will be committed. Establishment media outlets gladly bought into what seemed to be a logical, common sense argument that provided provocative sound bites and fed the 24 hour news cycle. On the bright side, pro-gun advocates are usually forced to discuss the value of guns to law abiding citizens when someone is backed into a corner and must use deadly force in self defense. Such situations are not really a win for anyone, since someone is often badly hurt or killed, and someone else has to live with the guilt of having shot a fellow human being. But facts are facts. And the sharp decline in homicides in 2009 is something to celebrate, and something that all Americans can understand and be happy about. Violence has decreased. The murder and mayhem so prevalent in cities like Washington D.C. has abated. And once again we see the wisdom of the Second Amendment. web page
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Low homicide rates are due to people watching all these crime shows. The criminal ALWAYS gets caught.
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Low homicide rates are due to people watching all these crime shows. The criminal ALWAYS gets caught.
Speaking of which...it seems like once a week I read some story about a murder or a conviction where the guy kills somebody, dumps the gun in the trashcan around the corner, and gets picked up a few hours later at a bar down the street wearing the same clothes they did the deed in...
...and I just can't fathom it. I mean, seriously? Did you think you were going to get away with it?
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Exactly Arch. I promise you I didn't get any power trip out of that and technically it's not quite legal to brandish the piece. A shady guy in a long coat being belligerant and closing on us I felt it a threat. I'm glad he left, really glad. But I can assure you...I will NOT be a victim. Things could have gotten bad for me or anyone else forced to use theirs arms. But again, I won't become a victim to these thugs.
I agree Mutt...as the old saying goes.....better to be tried by twelve then buried by six.
If I am in the right, I am willing to take my chances at least a few in the jury box are reasonable and sympathetic.
I refuse to be a victim either if I have any say so at all.
Or should I say...I refuse to be so without putting up a pretty good fight.
Unless it's pretty much a ambush, I doubt I will be the first to fall.....shoot, honest to God, I answer the door with a 18" sword in my hand up behind the door....if someone pushes their way through, the first guy is going to get run through, no doubt about it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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It's between me and Tyler and I sent a PM about it to him. All he has to do is admit that he lied.
Believe whatever you choose. I could really care less. I spent time writing that post cuz I care about the 2nd amendment, and I think that its sad the way guns are portrayed in this country and its also sad that most people are totally ignorant with regard to firearms.
As for the blunt thing. It happened. I explained several ways it can be done and even provided a link showing that it is probably more commonplace than you know. Especially when people are working with mersh.
I really don't care to get into some shouting match over it, cuz in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. There were several people who were there, and we know what we did, and it brings up some memories involved with certain people in my past.
Not everyone can say they did that, and its not like the greatest achievement in my life or anything---but it was a fun time and we showed our respect to JY before he got locked up for awhile. He didn't mean to put that kid in a coma----but the kid just couldn't take a punch.
Again, I PM'ed you and you can decide what you wanna believe. Its too bad I didn't video tape all my crazy exploits so I could post the clips on here for all you skeptics---but its probably a good thing that I didn't.
You don't want those types of videos floating around the web. 
Oh well. I think people need to learn more about firearm responsibility starting at a young age. Knowledge is power.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Good post Peen.
"...better to be tried by twelve than buried by six."
Damn right.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Good post Peen.
"...better to be tried by twelve than buried by six."
Damn right.
I think that the quote is "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" ...... but the point is the same.
I just watched the movie "We own the night" last night ... the movie the quote comes from. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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shoot, honest to God, I answer the door with a 18" sword in my hand up behind the door....if someone pushes their way through, the first guy is going to get run through, no doubt about it.
If this is the state of the US, I don't blame you guys wanting to have guns. dang.
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If this is the state of the US, I don't blame you guys wanting to have guns. dang.
Its not, some people are just paranoid.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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2nd String
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Its not, some people are just paranoid.
That goes both ways:
It is, some people are just apathetic.
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That goes both ways:
It is, some people are just apathetic.
I spent the first few years after moving out of my parents house living in the hood. I lived in the declining part of North Hill in Akron. Would I use the walk up ATM in any of the plazas? Absolutely not, but I wouldn't answer the door with a sword or a shotgun either. I've been robbed delivering pizza when I was younger too, but I don't carry around a gun with me assuming everyone who approaches me intends to rob me.
Should you invite everyone who knocks at the door in for tea? No, but I don't think the country is nearly bad enough to warrant greeting people with weapon in hand either.
But on the other hand, I guess its better to be a little paranoid and alive than being dead. And I don't think people in Firestone Park where I live now are rich enough to be targets for the type of people who would knock, brute force their way in and ransack your house either. So maybe I just don't understand because my house isn't something that would be worth the trouble to go through that for. 
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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I think its up to the individual to be responsible for their own personal safety. IMO, anymore, people think htey should be able to do whatever they want without the fear of assault of robbery.
Got news for you-----not in this world.
Its up to the individual to make sound decisions regarding where they go, what they do, who they associate with, what they carry on them, and how they carry themselves.
I said awhile back that mugging would go up on college campuses due to the proliferation of ipods. Call me crazy---but some kid walking down the sidewalk at night with an ipod stuck in their ears seems like a target to me. Dude isn't aware of his surroundings. He is plugged into his little world. He or she can't hear someone running up from behind, or beside them.
There are plenty of instances like this.
Pulling out a lot of cash, or wearing expensive jewelry while in some bar that you aren't familar with. Talking on your cell-phone and not paying attention to whose behind you, or whats going on ahead of you.
Getting drunk and getting into a fight over something stupid.
Talking loudly on your cell phone on the bus about having to go to the bank, or about paying someone a large amount of cash.
I think that its important to realize that everyone in this world doesn't have your best interest in mind. Understand that its up to you to avoid putting yourself in a bad situation. Be aware of whats going on around you. Know where you are going and how to act. Don't let yourself be drawn into a situation that may end up badly.
It may seem like paranoia, but there is a very thin line between paranoia and precaution.
Take the steps to protect yourself. The first step is knowing where you are and what is going on around you.
**Disclaimer: I hate personal mp3 players. I think ipods probably are to blame for hundreds of muggings and people being hit by cars acrossed the country every year. Its kool for in your home, or in the student lounge, or at work. But walking around in public is not a good idea. Especially at night time.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Quote:
Quote:
shoot, honest to God, I answer the door with a 18" sword in my hand up behind the door....if someone pushes their way through, the first guy is going to get run through, no doubt about it.
If this is the state of the US, I don't blame you guys wanting to have guns. dang.
I don't think it is so much as my state of mind. I have been doing that for 20 years....ever since strong armed invasions seemed to gain in popularity.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 01/17/10 07:57 AM.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Matt...I grew up in Firestone Park. The area is declining as it once was a beautiful neighborhood(s) and now is full of rentals. My point here is that people don't target just the rich or nice houses, they'll take anything!!! Almost everyone has a flat screen of some quality, jewelry, guns etc. It can all be fenced! They kill for 5 bucks for crying out loud! They kill because you dissed them whatever the hell that entails.
I'm not paranoid I'm prepared! This country will get uglier and uglier on it's present course, watch.
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Quote:
Quote:
If this is the state of the US, I don't blame you guys wanting to have guns. dang.
Its not, some people are just paranoid.
Better to be paranoid and prepared, than dead. 
I've noticed around here, that home invasions are not restricted to any one neighborhood or class. Head we had a home invasion and murder on a exclusive island that is only accessible by boat within the past year.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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From the sound of things, some people here would consider buying insurance as being paranoid.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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WOW, I mean WOW! Nice replies.... HELL yeah I am worried about what is going on in Washington, aren't YOU? I just posted this for people to check it out. Yes, I did ask "IS the 2nd amendment next..." IN THE FORM OF A QUESTION!! Now I am a fear mongerer? Spewing forth Beck, and Limbaugh like rhetoric?  Why? Because I asked a question? Stated an opinion? Nothing in this post is anything that hasn't been heard already by most of us. Tyrannical? Perhaps that is extreme, but when the government no longer does what the people want, what do you call it? Why is it that we have the 2nd amendment in the first place? I believe the wording in similar, but simply stated I believe the forefathers gave us the right to bear arms to guard against a corrupt government. Otherwise, what alternative do the people have in that extreme case? So, nothing new there.... Sorry if the video had content from 2006, but the movement against the 2nd amendment IS moving forward, slowly but surely! There are discussions of serial number on ammo, legislation to force monitoring gun transactions through the IRS, etc., just look at California.... Furthermore, have any of you tried to buy ammo lately? It is gone as soon as it comes off the truck in most stores. Why, because nobody believes the government will try to take our guns away? Oh, yeah, we are all a bunch of uneducated rednecks that are clueless.  Universal Healthcare is what THEY ARE CALLING this piece of legislative garbage that over 60% of us don't want, it's not my name for it. Hmmmm, Universal Healthcare..., your right, it really isn't universal as it still leaves 6% uninsured. However, what seems to be universal about it are the tax increases! Unless of course you are a union worker, or don't pay taxes in the first place!  At the same time does anyone really, I mean REALLY KNOW what the final form will be? Oh, yeah, we can watch all the proceeding on CSPAN...oh wait, no we can't. So how can anyone be calling me out about it? All's I know is what I read on sites like www.heritage.org, www.dickmorris.com, www.investors.com, www.drudgereport.com, and yes, I look at the FOX news site to. Sorry if I don't trust MSNBC, NPR, or my local news affiliates. The 1st amendment you say? Now, why would they want to suppress the opinions of the ignorant masses and control the flow of information....  Sorry if I got anyones panties in a bunch! Anyway here are a few links for those who want to be fear mongered...or just want some other sources of information. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2346345/postshttp://www.propeller.com/story/2009/12/1...-ban-gun-sales/http://forums.gunsandammomag.com/forum/2nd-amendmentpolitical-forum/california-ammo-ban-passedhttp://www.dickmorris.com/http://www.heritage.org/http://www.drudgereport.com/
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Quote:
Yes, I did ask "IS the 2nd amendment next..." IN THE FORM OF A QUESTION!! Now I am a fear mongerer? Spewing forth Beck, and Limbaugh like rhetoric? Why? Because I asked a question? Stated an opinion?
Absolutely not: the terms fear-mongering (and the like) are nothing more than epithets to prevent constructive debate.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Yes, I did ask "IS the 2nd amendment next..." IN THE FORM OF A QUESTION!! Now I am a fear mongerer? Spewing forth Beck, and Limbaugh like rhetoric? Why? Because I asked a question? Stated an opinion?
Absolutely not: the terms fear-mongering (and the like) are nothing more than epithets to prevent constructive debate.
Kind of like American patriots were nothing but British rebels.
I suppose today we would call them insurgents.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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All Pro
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I'll stand by my statement that using old clips isn't much help. The 2nd Amendment has been ruled an individual right. Tactics will have to change because the way that right will be attacked has changed.
Go Irish!
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Quote:
Quote:
Yes, I did ask "IS the 2nd amendment next..." IN THE FORM OF A QUESTION!! Now I am a fear mongerer? Spewing forth Beck, and Limbaugh like rhetoric? Why? Because I asked a question? Stated an opinion?
Absolutely not: the terms fear-mongering (and the like) are nothing more than epithets to prevent constructive debate.
So overstating an outcome, slippery-slope, drawing preconceived conclusions from other unconnected ideas, etc. are all valid ways to debate a point?
There are no sacred cows.
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Legend
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So overstating an outcome,
Extrapolating an opinion out to its worst case scenario conclusion...
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slippery-slope,
Hypothesizing on the eventual progression of activities...
Quote:
drawing preconceived conclusions from other unconnected ideas
Using random data to support ones opinion...
Sure, they are all ways to debate a point... until you attach slick words to them that already have negative connotations, that way you can just dismiss the debater as being ridiculous...
yebat' Putin
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"To go to a store to buy a gun - you need i.d. No biggie. You need to pass the FBI background check. No biggie for most people. (non felons, non mental people, etc) Hard to qualify? Not really. Keep in mind, this is for handguns, long rifles, shotguns, semi auto, pump, and single shot. Automatic rifles are illegal, everywhere Common misconception.. Not anymore than a pistol.. if you can buy and own a pistol where you live you can have a full auto anything. They are a LOT more expensive and it takes longer to get all the paperwork done but it's just as legal for me to have a SMG UZI under my pillow as it is a Colt 45. I usually have both
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Yeah, I thought the assault rifle bans expired.... is that the case?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
"To go to a store to buy a gun - you need i.d. No biggie. You need to pass the FBI background check. No biggie for most people. (non felons, non mental people, etc) Hard to qualify? Not really. Keep in mind, this is for handguns, long rifles, shotguns, semi auto, pump, and single shot. Automatic rifles are illegal, everywhere
Common misconception.. Not anymore than a pistol.. if you can buy and own a pistol where you live you can have a full auto anything. They are a LOT more expensive and it takes longer to get all the paperwork done but it's just as legal for me to have a SMG UZI under my pillow as it is a Colt 45. I usually have both
Wow - I must not/obviously am not aware of when full auto became legal. Can you show me the laws in the state you live? I live in Ohio - oh, wait - it's a federal law that full auto guns are illegal. Period.
Did I miss something? If so, my bad. (full auto and semi auto are different, you know that, right?)
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All Pro
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Quote:
Quote:
"To go to a store to buy a gun - you need i.d. No biggie. You need to pass the FBI background check. No biggie for most people. (non felons, non mental people, etc) Hard to qualify? Not really. Keep in mind, this is for handguns, long rifles, shotguns, semi auto, pump, and single shot. Automatic rifles are illegal, everywhere
Common misconception.. Not anymore than a pistol.. if you can buy and own a pistol where you live you can have a full auto anything. They are a LOT more expensive and it takes longer to get all the paperwork done but it's just as legal for me to have a SMG UZI under my pillow as it is a Colt 45. I usually have both
Wow - I must not/obviously am not aware of when full auto became legal. Can you show me the laws in the state you live? I live in Ohio - oh, wait - it's a federal law that full auto guns are illegal. Period.
Did I miss something? If so, my bad. (full auto and semi auto are different, you know that, right?)
Here is the BATF NFA handbook.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf
Here is the wiki page that explains it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_III_NFA_firearm
Go Irish!
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Quote:
Quote:
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"To go to a store to buy a gun - you need i.d. No biggie. You need to pass the FBI background check. No biggie for most people. (non felons, non mental people, etc) Hard to qualify? Not really. Keep in mind, this is for handguns, long rifles, shotguns, semi auto, pump, and single shot. Automatic rifles are illegal, everywhere
Common misconception.. Not anymore than a pistol.. if you can buy and own a pistol where you live you can have a full auto anything. They are a LOT more expensive and it takes longer to get all the paperwork done but it's just as legal for me to have a SMG UZI under my pillow as it is a Colt 45. I usually have both
Wow - I must not/obviously am not aware of when full auto became legal. Can you show me the laws in the state you live? I live in Ohio - oh, wait - it's a federal law that full auto guns are illegal. Period.
Did I miss something? If so, my bad. (full auto and semi auto are different, you know that, right?)
Here is the BATF NFA handbook.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf
Here is the wiki page that explains it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_III_NFA_firearm
So, what I got out of all that is that "joe blow" citizen can't have a fully automatic gun UNLESS it is registered with a bunch of places AND unless he has a special permit for it. Otherwise, it is illegal.
Did I read it correctly? Because I know I can't have a full auto weapon.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767 |
Used to be 200 and tax to own/buy a class 3 destructive weapon.
It's a whole nother ball game to sell em though.
l run with a military history club and have a number of members who are licensed Class 3 and own quite a few full auto weapons. It's a big time expensive game!!!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,206
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,206 |
Quote:
So, what I got out of all that is that "joe blow" citizen can't have a fully automatic gun UNLESS it is registered with a bunch of places AND unless he has a special permit for it. Otherwise, it is illegal.
Did I read it correctly? Because I know I can't have a full auto weapon.
With your line of thinking there arch, it is also illegal for you to drive a car, carry a handgun in public, buy a car, etc...
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520 |
LOL.. The assault weapons ban ( military semi autos, large clips, etc ) expired after the 10 year run and wasn't renewed. Had nothing to do with Full auto weapons. It's always been 'Legal" to buy,own, shoot and sell a full auto machine gun if you follow the NFA rules ( National Firearms Act ) and later Title II updates. The original act was put in place in 1936 by the goverment arm of the I.R.S to stem the selling of Machine guns. They figured at the time a 200.00 TAX on each transfer would cost so much in comparison to the guns back then, people would quit buying so many of them. In 1986 they put a ban on manufacturing/importing any new machine guns. The guns in the market place these days for civilians, are all the guns made BEFORE 1986.
The 200.00 tax is still the same. Like I said, if you can legally own a pistol you can buy a machine gun. Their ARE some curve balls along the way such as getting fingerprinted by the local sheriff and getting his/her blessing/signature on the forms, as well as waiting for a FBI background check on said fingerprints and criminal history (or have a Gun trust). It's really all paperwork and money. You pay for the gun, start the paperwork with the dealer and wait, and wait, and wait. The actual checks are fast but they are SOOOO backed up with minimal staffing. Some people have waited a year to finally get the form and IRS stamp that lets them go pick up the gun. Some are lucky and get it in 2 months. I have 3 pending right now for a MAC10 .45ACP and two supressors.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Okay. It's looking like I was dead wrong on "fully auto guns being illegal" for the common citizen. My bad. I learned something though.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520 |
It almost might as well be Kind of like some of these $500K Classic cars I see on auction sites. You can buy them but you can't The police and military pay about 1500.00 for a NEW full auto M-16. It cost me about 14k for one made before 1986.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 303
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 303 |
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So overstating an outcome, slippery-slope, drawing preconceived conclusions from other unconnected ideas, etc. are all valid ways to debate a point?
1. Saying that x is so-and-so doesn't make it so. All of these are begging the question unless demonstrated that x is what you say.
2. Drawing preconceived conclusions isn't even fallacious. The very cognitive process involves preconceived notions, which eventually, unless demonstrated false, follow as preconceived conclusions. If the conclusion follows, it's irrelevant if it was preconceived or not.
3. Slippery-slope isn't a slippery slope if the assertion can be demonstrated as probable. Slippery slope is also a modern invention of logic -- Aristotle never mentioned it, and Aristotle's Organon and ideas are the foundation for systematized logic.
4. Unconnected ideas: involves a value judgment on the beholder. If the person asserting, what may appear to be 'unconnected ideas', then demonstrates how x is so. It's no longer 'unconnected ideas', it falls on you to demonstrate how it isn't so, and if you cannot, you are back at #1 -- begging the question.
Things like 'fear-mongering' or other generalized fallacies carry with them deceptively emotive intentions. Emotive wording has no place in debate, or logic, for that matter -- if they do, the person asserting x to get person A to be emotive is playing foul, and chances are, it's because person B doesn't have much of an argument, or substance, so let's attack the person instead of the argument. 'Fear-mongering', etc., is an example of that.
So, yes, as long as logic is being used correctly all are valid ways to debate a point.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224 |
Quote:
that way you can just dismiss the debater as being ridiculous...
I didn't say anything about being ridiculous, just that utilizing and taking to an extreme all three of those examples i gave is characteristic of fear-mongering.
There are no sacred cows.
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