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I think the Saints would give up quite a bit more than the Eagles.
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I'll take Kolb for Rogers. Straight up.
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Add in our 2nd and 3rd and they might be interested.
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You really think it would take that much to get him? I was joking when I said Rogers for Kolb straight up. But I don't think they would want a two and three along with Rogers. If Kolb's even available.
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I think it would take at least that.
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NRTU.
We've always known that asking a penetrating, two-gap DT to play NT in the 3-4 was a round peg in a square hole, but as a DE rogers would be an excellent player. Hell, the truth is that he isn't that bad as a NT. Using the last month of this past season to judge much of anything doesn't fly because of the teams we played, when we played them, and the elements.
Trading Rogers would be a mistake.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Trading Rogers would be a mistake.
all depends on what we get for him. if we can get Kolb for Rogers and a 3rd...I'd do it because I believe that Kolb would solidify the QB spot, which is more important. and also because Rogers only has a few years left.
i also don't think Philly would do that deal (with Rogers age and injuries this season coupled with motivation problems in the past).
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The Chiefs got Matt Cassel last year for a 2nd rounder. And he was a much more proven QB than Kolb currently is. Cassel had started a whole season for the Patriots and won eleven games. Kolb has started two games in his whole career.
I think Kolb for Rogers and a 3rd round pick would be plenty. Again, the question is whether or not Kolb is even available. I'm sure Heckert has a pretty good idea if he is or isn't.
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No chance.
Cassel didn't prove anything IMO. He had success in a loaded offense. And the Patriots had other offers that were worth more than a 1st rounder. Kolb has put up great numbers, and looked like a great quarterback. The Eagles also have a 2nd round investment in him. And unlike the Pats, they're current QB is almost done.
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Cassel didn't prove anything? Sure he had a loaded offense. But the ball still has to get to the receiver. Cassel did an excellent job last year, he completed 63% of his passes with 21 TD's and 11 INT's with 3,693 yards. And as I mentioned before, he won eleven games. Also, If I remember correctly, the Patriots franchise QB was coming off a major knee injury. What I don't remember is teams offering more than a 2nd rounder for Cassel, I could be wrong, and if I am please send me a link to let me know.
Kolb hasn't proved squat. And to say he has put up great numbers is a reach at best. In his three year career Kolb has started two games and played in eleven games (not including his rookie season when he didn't even have a pass attempt, but did get in a game to kneel on the ball.) These are his career stats: 60.8% completion rate, 4 TD's, 7 INT's. Not really that great at all. Has has only looked good in one game so far in his career and that was this past season where he went 24/34 (70.6%) for 327 yards with TD's. That game was against the Chiefs. He had one mediocre game against the Saints where he had 391 passing yards, while going 31/51 (60.8%) with 2 TD's and 3 INT's.
I even looked into Kolb's pre-season numbers to see if he had any signs of greatness there. He did have one good pre-season. In 2007 he did pretty well as the third string QB playing against crappy defenses. Other than that he hasn't done well in pre-season.
Now, after looking at all these numbers. Why did I even think Kolb was a good prospect? One better than Brady Quinn. I don't really know. I guess I have just heard that he is good and never really looked into it.
With that said. I no longer think trading for Kevin Kolb is a good idea. If we are going to trade for him we might as well keep Brady Quinn and keep our draft picks and good players.
How does this all relate to Shaun Rogers? Well, now that I know how not great Kevin Kolb is, I would probably want him and draft picks for Shaun Rogers.
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see the Schaub trade from Atlanta to Houston....that is the more apt comparison.
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If you think a 31 year old defensive tackle with attitude problems is worth anywhere near as much as an up and coming quarterback; you are insane. Kolb had an 88.9 QB rating this year. Don't give me stats from his rookie year; give the current ones.
I guarantee you that Rogers wouldn't get us anywhere near Kevin Kolb. It would take high draft picks.
Right now Rogers is being ridiculously overvalued.
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If you look, I didn't even consider his rookie year. I gave stats from the two games he started this year, one win against the horrible Chiefs, one loss against the not horrible Saints. I also gave stats from the games he played in 2008 when he had a QB rating of 21.8.
If anyone is being overvalued it's Kevin Kolb. I admit I used to be one of those people (like 20 minutes ago I was.) But I have now seen the light!
I do agree with you though. Rogers is a 31 year old defensive tackle.
Kolb an up and coming QB. Ehhh.
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Daman...I was looking for confirmation on what I heard since I did not see training camp this year...so now you have heard it from others as well...again, ""My concern about Rogers is his motivation and commitment to the Browns""
IMO, Rogers doesn't want to work hard...doesn't like it in Cleveland...and it appears he did everything he could to provoke a trade last season. I remember something about him saying he wanted to go back to Lions.
Rogers was not a malcontent at all. Yeah, he walked laps. Yeah, he joked around. That's all common knowledge. But it didn't bother Mangini at all. In fact, if you remember, he let Rogers slide all though training camp allowing him to ride the bike on the sideline instead of bust it in practice. Mangini called it an injury but Rogers came out and played at a high level then went back to the bike. There's no way his motivation and commitment was lacking.
As far as the comment that he wanted to go back to the Lions. First, get real. Second, that comment was attributed to Shaun Smith when we shipped his ass out of here and he landed with the Lions. Rogers denied any such statement of his own.
Rogers is a vet player. A multi-year pro-bowler for cripes sakes. He didn't need to be treated like a high schooler running laps for making mistakes in practice. On game day, mistakes and all, he was still our beast of the defense even if Mangini did let him slide through camp and practices. Truth be told, he didn't need all that work. It was better to save him for the season.
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill with his jokingly walking laps. What did anyone expect, a 3 minute mile? Why you gonna make a 370 lb, mulit-year pro-bowler who is likely your best defensive player run laps for making a mistake. Leave that for the rookies and others who don't equal the weight of a small truck.
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just clicking
Rogers is a talented player with great potential but that means nothing to the Browns if the individual does not want to apply himself.
Rogers plays when Rogers wants to play and I'm not sure how that fits in a Holmgren/Mangini defensive scheme.
Maybe some of you folks who want to keep Rogers around can tell us how you fix "lazy"?...anyone?...
Some of you may forget, Rogers also wanted a new contract. When Albert Haynesworth got his mega contract from the Redskins, Rogers wanted to be compensated in the same fashion. When Rogers didn't get his way...he tanked on purpose, imo.
Here is an article from last year touching on the Rogers situation... web page
The Browns can't win with someone like Shaun Rogers with the attitude he has. Rogers loved playing for Crennel and now Romeo is in KC. Maybe the Chiefs would be willing to work out a deal for Rogers. KC has the 4th pick in the 2nd round, which IMO, would be perfect, with maybe another player tossed in from the Chiefs.
This is the time to unload Rogers, IMO...he does not want to be here and is willing to do anything to get out of Cleveland.
Time for Rogers to go...
Last edited by mac; 01/20/10 07:33 PM.
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Here are the raw numbers: In the first 11 games with Rogers at nose tackle, the Browns allowed 155 yards per game rushing. That was near the bottom of the league. In the last five with Rubin, it was 111 yards. With Rogers, they allowed 13 rushing touchdowns in 11 games; with Rubin, it was two in five games. Maybe part of the reason for the improvement was David Bowens' move from outside to inside linebacker to replace the injured Eric Barton. But it also is clear that Rubin made an impact on the run defense.
maybe part of the reason was the quality of opponents in those first games. Especially the first seven other than the Bills.
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But the current coaching staff believes Rogers has a tendency to "free-lance," not sticking with the scheme and covering the middle of the line.
There's some truth in that.
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Finally, defensive coordinator Rob Ryan was using lots of strange sets with five or more linebackers and only one lineman near the end of the season -- and had success with it.
And this has what to do with Rogers? Sure, maybe it was Rogers absence that forced Ryan's hand to try some different stuff, but had he tried it when Rogers was still playing are we to assume it would not have worked?
I think Rogers belongs in a 4-3. I'm not sure he ever loved eating blocks over attacking. His size and incredible skills for such a big man makes him able to do well in either case but he belongs in the other scheme in my opinion.
It wouldn't bother me if we traded him so long as we get good value. At the age of 31 he still has value. Keeping him the two to four years it will take for us to really become competitive will make him 33-35. Just when we'll need him the most he'll be slowing down quickly. So cool if we trade him in my book. I think he'd like it better anyway.
But all this using numbers to explain that the run defense is better without him don't wash. Just like using numbers to explain away anything usuall don't wash. There's a place for stats like that but there are too many variables to just roll out a few numbers and claim "there you have it".
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I think we could get a 2nd and some change for him. I can't decide if it's worth it or not.
I'd also like to mention the "need" the Eagles have at DT. Broderick Bunkley is a great nose tackle in their 4-3 scheme, and Mike Patterson is a pretty decent under tackle. I don't see any need for them at all.
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Wow you overrate Kolb even more than you did Williams and you were wrong about him to.
He hasnt done any better than any other backup that has rolled through Philly in McNabbs time.
That includes guys like an aging Garcia, Detmer, and that one other guy who went to the Phins a few years back. Kolb will have the same fate as the rest, he will move on in free agency when his contract is up.
Any QB with decent accuracy who is well prepared is going to put up a QB rating of 85 with the Eagles, Ive seen it year after year.
Kolb is nothing special, and you will see when he moves on to some other team.
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:facepalm:
It has zero to do with any personal evaluations, even though you are way off base. It has everything to with with how the Eagles value Kolb. And they value him a lot higher than you do. Rogers wouldn't come close to getting Kolb.
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I wouldnt trade Rogers for Kolb, we would be getting jipped in that deal. Kolb is a decent back up QB, nothing more, nothing less. Much like Favre in GreenBay many so called up and coming QBs warmed the bench for him, there will be another one after Kolb is gone and McNabb is still there putting up a 90 rating. Now Corey and Cribbs for Kolb would be a fair deal.
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Quote:
Much like Favre in GreenBay many so called up and coming QBs warmed the bench for him
you used a very bad example for proving your point. although a prudent one since the same guy is going to help pick our next one (Holmgren)
Favre had some outstanding backups during his time in GB. And system or not, they were successful at other stops outside of GB later in their careers.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/412789/the_history_of_brett_favres_backup.html
If you don't want to read through, here are some examples:
1. Ty Detmer - 2 year decent stint in Philly (pre-Reid and McNabb). Probably the worst one on this list.
2. Mark Brunell led the Jaguars to two AFC Championship and some success in Washington
3. Matt Hasselback led the Seattle Seahawks to Super Bowl XL
4. Aaron Brooks had 4 consecutive seasons with 3500+ yards and 20+ TDs
5. Aaron Rodgers was drafted in the 1st round in 2005 and has taken over for Favre in GB and had 2 largely successful seasons.
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I was thinking that maybe D'Qwell's name needed to be put in that article as well..
I'd think I'd miss Rogers more than I would D'Qwell..
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Actually my point in that example wasnt about Kolb being mediocre, although I beleive he is.
My point was that McNabb isnt going anywhere for the next 5-6 years minimum, and that at least one more backup, in the string of guys who back up McNabb is going to roll through town.
Its just smart planning by the Eagles to always have a decent backup on the roster, they always do. He isnt heir apparent in the way that Rogers was in Green Bay. McNabb is not that old. And for all the complaining that Philly fans do, IMO as long as Reid is the coach, McNabb is the QB.
McNabb
Most consecutive pass completions, 24; vs New York Giants, Nov. 28, 2004; vs Green Bay Packers, Dec. 5, 2004
Least-intercepted quarterback per pass attempt of all time, (4588 attempts-96 interceptions, 2.09%)
Second-best touchdown-to-interception ratio of all time, (209-96, 2.18) behind Tom Brady (217-92, 2.36)
One of six quarterbacks of all time to have over 25,000 passing yards and 3,000 rushing yards (alongside Randall Cunningham, Steve Young, Fran Tarkenton, Steve McNair, and John Elway)
Currently the third-highest winning percentage among active quarterbacks (83-45-1, .647) behind Peyton Manning (119-59-0, .669) and Tom Brady (88-25-0, .779)
Last edited by RageDawg; 01/20/10 10:45 PM.
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Kolb is this years Matt Schaub. Has looked good, but not started enough to make a definitive assessment.
The games I watched, he played well. I think he will be a fine NFL QB. I don't know if he is worth a first round draft choice, or but Rodgers would take me about 1 second to pull that trigger. The Browns just have not shown enough with Quinn and Anderson.
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No Chance, I never understood why McNabb gets no respect, but could you imagain Shula trading Marino ? Bellyache trading Brady ? Shannahan trading Elway. I cant. McNabb and Reid are one.
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It just makes sense to me that if we are trying to build for the future (and not necessarily continue in the full flow 'rebuild mode" ... but anyone can see we have to go UP now) ... we can't just GIVE playmakers away ... but if we ARE confident on drafting, it doesn't make much sense to let the D-Line continue to get older. I am all for trying to get Berry, and maybe one or two others near the top of the draft .... but if we could get a HIGH #2 or (never happen) a #1 for Rogers from a team that needed to "WIN NOW" I'd take it in a heartbeat.
We have a lot of depth on the D-Line, but the PROCESS that we have seen taking shape has allowed the younger players to look good (Rubin in particular). If we could trade rogers for another pick in the top of the draft, I'd say spend at LEAST one if not 2 of our top 3 on a big ugly in the trenches. We have some needs, but we need to continue to build in the trenches.
I know that it is contradictory to say build in the trenches AND trade Rogers, but he is pushing 30, and in a year or two he could retire or just have nothing left to move that almost 400 pound body. Cincy's O-line played well but isn't "Talented" just a good group. Baltimore has been adding some big players (like Oher), but they need to address the secondary and receiving corps, I don't see much upgrade or downgrade in their trenches in the next few years. And if we added a firey young D-Lineman or two (in addition to some pass rusher?) we could tear Pittsburgh's O-Line apart.
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j/c It never ceases to amaze me how our fanbase always wants to trade away our star players.....for some unknown...or a bunch of scrubs....or draft pics (which is a crap shoot). And then AGAIN I am amazed at how our coaching staff listens to the fans....and winds up trading away our star players.........and then every year....everyone sits around scratching their bum wondering why our team is once again in the basement. FIGHT CLUB RULE #1: IS NOT DON'T TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB, IT IS HOLD ONTO YOUR STAR TALENT. I have faith that Mr. Holmgrem knows this, and big baby won't be going anywhere. 
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It never ceases to amaze me how our fanbase always wants to trade away our star players.....for some unknown...or a bunch of scrubs....or draft pics (which is a crap shoot). And then AGAIN I am amazed at how our coaching staff listens to the fans....and winds up trading away our star players.........and then every year....everyone sits around scratching their bum wondering why our team is once again in the basement.
Examples? Just a few? Because I have no problem with trading Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow.
Who did our front office trade that we really lost out on? Jeff Faine?
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Obviously they're talking about Quincy Morgan and Reuben Droughns.
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Methinks we should have kept both Winslow and Edwards although everyone on the board will throw tomatoes at me for that as most are overly critical and biased. With Cleveland fans...either players are a Saint or players are pure Garbage...no where in between. The extreme criticism that Cleveland fans put on players really bugs me to no end. I'm sure everyone will reply with blah crap, but sadly I don't have the time to obsess on this thread.
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The extreme criticism that Cleveland fans put on players really bugs me to no end. I'm sure everyone will reply with blah crap, but sadly I don't have the time to obsess on this thread.
Braylon Edwards was a locker room cancer. He has done nothing in New York and is pretty much ignored by Mark Sanchez. I will be suprised if the Jets keep him next year (nobody on 1050ESPNJetsRadio or 660WFAN thinks they will), and I wonder how much money he will accept with whatever team he goes to. This year, he wasn't getting the ball thrown to him (and when he was, he was dropping it), and we would have probably had to franchise him to keep him next year. He just isn't worth it.
Winslow wanted a much bigger contract, and was angry at the way the team treated him last season after he got staph infection on his junk because he decided to tattoo or pierce it (not sure which). He has finished every season with injuries because of his motorcycle accident. We got a 2nd and 5th for him I believe, and for our type of football he wasn't that useful. He's a great receiver but awful blocker. Plus, we have no idea how much longer he'll last in the NFL. How much more time was left on his contract? He wanted a lot of money.
Trading those guys left us in very good cap space and got rid of two ME first types of players. Now you can runaway and hide all you want, but they weren't exactly stars. I loved Winslow, but his time was up, I'm happy he went away to TB and made a ton of money. Now they can worry about what to do with him for the extended future as his career steadily declines, and they continue to get stuck with a TE that cannot block.
It isn't like we got nothing for these guys. For Braylon we got a receiver who was about just as productive on this team (and then we got a 3rd which could have been a 2nd if B-EZ was better and Trusnik as well).
Simply cutting these two guys would have been one thing, but they didn't have futures with this team and we got what we could in return. Now we have Edwards gone (prima donna pain in the butt) and Winslow gone (hardworking pain in the butt who limited our running game and couldn't spread the field vertically). Did you want to resign Winslow to a contract similar to what the Bucs gave him which made him like the highest payed TE in football? As hard as he works, and he was my favorite player for awhile, Winslow was not going to be worth the money he wanted and I don't think we would have won the finalgames of the season (when we ran so well) if he was starting this year.
In the end, I think we were better off this year without KW2 and B-EZ
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 01/21/10 01:17 AM.
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I disagree. Winslow is a quality TE. Sure, his blocking is questionable, but he has the best hands. We don't have a better one on the team currently.
Edwards didn't get thrown to ....because early in the season we had Quinn at QB and we all know he doesn't throw beyond 5 yards....so BE wasn't gonna get a shot. IIRC BE did do a decent job catching what was (rarely) thrown his way early this season...basically it was fans running him out of town.
What did we get for either of these two pro bowl players ? A bunch of nothing. That's what.
Our fanbase look for a scapegoat every year, and they always pick our most talent players and they are run out of town....then we sit around wondering why we have a talentless team. I can see it now........next year we'll be again 5-11 because both Cribbs and Rogers were traded away...and again we'll be scratching our bum wondering why we are in the basement.
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And it pisses me off to no end when people say we should trade Rogers. The dude is major talent that doesn't come by every day. And you want to get rid of him FOR WHAT ? He has done nothing but worked hard on the team...he's been a force disrupting offenses and blocking field goals and all the good stuff that he's supposed to do. WE HAVE A GOOD ONE. And some people want to get rid of him.  Really, I'm thinking half the Browns fanbase are Steelers fans in disguise.
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Bashing and Trading away good players is my BIGGEST pet peeve EVER. If you can't tell.
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Sorry if I got a little aggressive there. 12.50 pitchers of Budlight at the bar, and around me that's like a steal, so you better stock up hehe.
It was apparent to me against the Bengals when it was really close (the game I went to this year) that Braylon Edwards was simply not going to get the ball. After that game, I believe he was traded. He sort of ran himself out of town with all the grievences he filed against Mangini and punching Lebron's buddy in the face. Now, I don't live in Cleveland, so punching Lebron's buddy didn't effect me, but it was a really bad look. But while Edwards was open, Quinn simply was not going to trust Edwards with the ball. The same has happened in New York where he doesn't get the ball on third down pretty much ever anymore. They've already started calling him Stone Hands.
Now this doesn't mean Edwards doesn't play hard, he's a great blocker and very competitive, and I respect him for that. But he was not going to be productive with the team this year. And it was widely speculated that he didn't want to play here next year. We sent him to NY where most people figured he'd be the happiest. Win-Win in my book.
As for Winslow, we simply dissagree there. I wish the best for the guy, but for me, it's essential that a TE can passblock and runblock. Teams limited what he could do by jamming him hard at the LOS and following up with a safety to cover over the top. Since he was our number one option, it really hurt us because he was easy to eliminate.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
Here's the thing with Rogers ......
It all depends on how we see the team developing.
Rogers is 30. He'll be 31 when next season starts. That's old for a DT/DE. He's kind of a freak of nature, and extremely talented physically ...... but he does have a lot of wer and tear already on his body.
Robaire Smith just turned 32. He managed to come back from a devestating injury, but is probably at or near the end of a very good career. How many more snaps will Roger's body (also coming back from injury) have left in it? Is it enough to warrant him playing this year on what will likely not be a contending team ..... then, potentially sitting out next year in the event of a work stoppage .... and then contributing to a (hopefully) contending team at age 33? In this senario does it make sense to keep him ..... or try to get value for him now?
Shaun Rogers could be a major contributor on a Super Bowl contender for a couple of years to come. Are we that team? Do we trade him now for value, or do we keep him and hope that he doesn't fade just as the team rises?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,438
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,438 |
We'll agree to disagree then. I just don't think that *anyone* on our receiving corps is superior to these guys other than MoMass (he is awesome). So, why trade them ? It only makes our team worse. We got zero in return.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 |
This is a crazy idea,
Plus Brownies What is in your brownies? Rogers is PROTOTYPE nose tackle he is not a defensive end.
All AND ANOTHER THING, I'D BE MORE INCLINED TO TRADE A 12 YEAR VETERAN IF HE RANNNN THE "quote un quote LAPS" ANYWAY!
I would have walked any laps, from a blankety blank 11 game losing streak coach if I were a 12 year vet myself.
If you know more than your coach! You've been around longer than your coach! You're going to BEE around longer than your coach! Then you'd be dishonoring yourself to run that persons " laps" .
That was the previous situation, but NOW in the current situation where Mangini has been given a vote of Not fired! by Holmgren, maybe you run the laps now, but maybe the coach doesn't throw his weight around anymore either, as much.
Bottom line is you don't trade 12 year veterans no matter how they get on your team, they either quit or play one more year, or are released, they don't get traded.
And Nose tackles don't play defensive end, Just like fullbacks don't play wide receiver, it is a size and speed thing.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
It wouldn't bother me if we traded him so long as we get good value. At the age of 31 he still has value. Keeping him the two to four years it will take for us to really become competitive will make him 33-35. Just when we'll need him the most he'll be slowing down quickly. So cool if we trade him in my book. I think he'd like it better anyway.
But all this using numbers to explain that the run defense is better without him don't wash. Just like using numbers to explain away anything usuall don't wash. There's a place for stats like that but there are too many variables to just roll out a few numbers and claim "there you have it".
Plus one needs to know who the opponents were when those numbers got better..
The problem is simple..Rogers free lances but it's because he can...but it's a liability in that it creates a hole...now the Browns could keep him one more year and put him at DE where his aggressive style on the end would be a upgrade..if they try to trade him they have get a value pick now some 5/6th rounder..
Of course everyone concerned with this should remember MH wants to go younger on defense and veteran on offense...so I think we can expect a DT to be chosen somewhere in this draft..
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum On Trading Rogers
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