(CNN) -- A man on trial for gunning down an abortion provider in church said he had no regrets because "abortion is murder."
Scott Roder, 51, said he shot and killed Dr. George Tiller as services began on May 31 to save the lives of the unborn.
"There was nothing being done and the legal process had been exhausted, and these babies were dying every day," Roeder said. "I felt that if someone did not do something, he was going to continue."
Roeder is charged with one count of first-degree murder. Tiller ran a women's clinic at which he performed abortions, including the controversial late-term procedure.
During Roeder's testimony Thursday, Tiller's widow, Jeanne, and other family members sat in the gallery. Initially stoic, they began to dab at tears as Roeder described putting a gun to Tiller's head.
Asked if he regretted what he did, Roeder said, "No, I don't." Upon learning that Tiller's clinic was shut down after his death, he said he felt "a sense of relief."
Dressed in a dark suit, white shirt and a red patterned tie, Roeder calmly testified that he thought about different ways to kill the doctor -- driving a car into his, perhaps, or shooting him with a rifle. His main concern, he said, was that he might harm others.
Under cross-examination, he told Sedgwick County District Attorney Nola Foulston he also considered cutting Tiller's hands off with a sword, but decided that would not be effective, as Tiller would still be able to train others.
Tiller, 67, was one of the few U.S. doctors who performed late-term abortions. He had already survived one attempt on his life before he was slain.
Roeder said that through the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue he learned that Tiller took measures to protect himself -- traveling in an armored car, using a security escort, wearing a bulletproof vest and living in a gated community.
He decided to kill Tiller at his church, he said, because "I felt that actually if he was to be stopped, that was probably the only place he could have been stopped. ... It was the only window of opportunity I saw."
Roeder said he visited the church four or five times before Tiller's death. The week before the shooting, on May 24, he carried a .22-caliber handgun with him, he testified, but Tiller did not attend church that day.
On May 31, though, the doctor was there, and "I did what I thought was needed to be done to protect the children," Roeder said. "I shot him."
"The lives of those children were in imminent danger if someone did not stop George Tiller," he said.
Under questioning from Foulston, Roeder acknowledged that he "somewhat" admired those who previously had committed violence against abortion providers. Asked whether he considered use of a weapon violent, he said not if it was in self-defense or in defense of others. But, he said, he had a long-standing belief that Tiller should die.
He said he never had attempted to reach Tiller to talk to him and did not know him, although he had seen him in person before.
Earlier, Roeder testified that his anti-abortion beliefs "go hand in hand" with his religious beliefs. He said he became born again in 1992 after watching an episode of "The 700 Club."
Asked if there are any circumstances in which he believes abortion is acceptable, Roeder said he thought it could be if the mother's life was in "absolute" danger. "I struggle with that decision," he said, "because I believe that ultimately, it is up to our heavenly father. But if there was a time, that would be it."
When defense attorneys asked about his belief regarding abortion in the case of rape, Roeder said, "I do not believe that is justified. You are taking the life of the innocent. You're punishing the innocent life for the sin of the father. Two wrongs don't make a right."
Asked about incest, he said his beliefs were the same. "It isn't our duty to take life, it's our heavenly father's," he said.
Roeder's testimony was peppered with objections from prosecutors. Many objections were sustained by Sedgwick County Judge Warren Wilbert, who has maintained he does not want the trial to become a forum on abortion.
In a conference out of the presence of jurors, Wilbert cautioned Roeder about his testimony, saying specifics on medical procedures would not be allowed. Roeder's testimony will proceed, Wilbert said, "on a question-by-question basis."
Roeder recounted conducting what he called "sidewalk counseling" at Kansas City abortion clinics, handing pamphlets and other literature to women as they went inside. "Some of them did ultimately change their mind," he said.
Defense attorney Steve Osburn, in opening statements Thursday, told jurors Roeder "killed Dr. Tiller because he believed that was the only way, necessary to save the lives of the unborn."
Wilbert refused to allow former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline to testify on behalf of the defense. On Wednesday, he refused to allow testimony from current Deputy Attorney General Barry Disney. Kline unsuccessfully attempted to prosecute Tiller in 2006. Disney charged Tiller with 19 misdemeanor counts, but a jury acquitted the doctor.
Wilbert said Roeder can testify about the cases and how they affected his beliefs, but to allow testimony from Kline would "get into legal matters that do not concern this jury."
And, the judge said, the cases do not give Roeder a basis to state absolutely that Tiller's actions were illegal, since the doctor had never been convicted.
Defense attorneys claim Roeder was led to shoot Tiller in part because of authorities' failure to punish him through the judicial system.
Roeder testified he was "very frustrated" by Tiller's acquittal, saying it "seemed like that was the last attempt by the state of Kansas to find if there was anything at all going on illegally in George Tiller's clinic."
I believe that Roeder knew the consequences of his actions, but he answers to a higher power. Call it god, call it true morality (which is what I answer to). The question is, when is a baby really a baby? Late term abortions are absolutely brutal. Awful. What ever happened to the hypocratic oath "Do No Harm"
I have no sympathy for this murdered doctor, would I be the one who would pull the trigger on him, no I could never do that. May be I feel bad for his family, but for the doctor, I feel no sympathy. He knows the risks that come with what he does, and he knows the implications for his actions.
I feel sympathy for late term aborted babies. Babies that can survive outside the womb. There are very few circumstances that require killing a human for the mistakes of its parents................ Rarely is the mother's life at a major enough risk that it should require killing a child........
And I do understand the point that he took Tiller's life in order to protect more lives. Even if that means sacraficing his own......... (which I agree he should do, spend the rest of his life in prison) But I bet Roeder would do it again, and call him a wacko or whatever you want but Tiller's death shop is shut down and that's a good thing.
Now do i believe in abortion, I dunno. Thank god none of the girls I slept with were confronted with the issue, but late term is absolutely irresponsible and evil in my opinion. Sure there are instances which make decisions difficult, but we are talking about a developed human life, regardless of what the parents think. It's something that really bothers me.
He killed a guy who wasn't a threat to him....and wasn't doing anything illegal.
So he should go to jail for life.
It's as simple as that. Any ambiguity opens up to a flood of "justified killings". It's the same defense that the ALF used when they blew up the houses of professors doing research on animals (specifically here at UC - Santa Cruz). The same defense could be used to justify killing soldiers about to serve overseas (because soldiers are killing civilians or some crap like that).
Simply put, you can't allow vigilantism like that.
~Lyuokdea
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
At first I thought you meant ALF... the one who likes cats... but then I remembered the other acronym that ALF stands for...
I'm a firm believer that people should have their own beliefs.. even if there belief thinks it is alright to murder someone... as long as they do not go out and do what their belief states in that matter.. There are so many more effective ways to get your point across, and by doing what he has done places more harm on his belief than what he could have done otherwise... Look at how people react to PETA... There is always a good way to get your point across and a bad way... you put your point across in a bad way too many times, other people will not respect what you have to say over time.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Also found this interesting: "It isn't our duty to take life, it's our heavenly father's," yet he does exactly the opposite of what he says he believes.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
Sure, he killed someone, and he deserves to pay the penalty for that. And I do believe that he is probably prepared to pay that penalty.
But it's a small penalty for the amount of lives he saved. And in many ways that's how I feel.
I don't think that this guy looks at this as murdering a doctor. He looks at it as saving the lives of babies that could survive on their own if given a chance. And in many ways, I look at it that way too.
And for Mattack, sure in his mind, it's god duty to take lives and not his. But if you look at it in the way of him taking one life, to save multiple lives, then I see nothing wrong with that as long as he's prepared to face the consequences of murdering someone........ And that's coming from someone who isn't sure about god and is even less sure about christianity.
Old "doctor" (if you want to call someone who murders babies a doctor) dies, young lives live. We're talking about babies that could be delivered and survive on their own. Fair trade
Old man loses his life to jail or execution, but young lives live. Fair trade
Sure, dissabling this doctor so that he can't perform these killings anymore would be better than murdering him, but it's not always that simple.
Quote: Society doesn't have a place for someone like that (the gunman).
Killing someone for legally doing their job is not right, regardless of your ethical or religious views on the subject.
I guess this is something we don't agree with. Babies that could be delivered. Could be the next Einstein, the next Mozart.............
Late term abortion babies can be delivered usually right then and there, at the time of the abortion. It is murder. Murder one person, save many others from being murdered. This "doctor" isn't innocent.
And what kind of job is that, late term abortions. DO NO HARM that is a doctor's number one job.
I don't think anyone will change my opinion. Roeder deserves to go to jail, I feel no sympathy for Tillman at all. I feel more anger toward Tillman than I do Roeder. Roeder has killed once, Tillman has killed many times.
But as I said, it's something I feel strongly about
Also found this interesting: "It isn't our duty to take life, it's our heavenly father's," yet he does exactly the opposite of what he says he believes.
Oh, he's just doing God's work. He's not breaking any rules or commandments when taken in this context.
The thing i think he forgot, is that America was founded on the basis of religious freedom due to the catholic church persecuting the protestants. It's the same in this situation. He thinks it's ok, based on holy mandate, to murder someone because they believe differently that they do? Bull. Freedom isn't just applicable when it suits you.
Quote: Could be the next Einstein, the next Mozart.............
They could also be the next Hitler, Charles Manson, etc. This speculation leads nowhere.
Quote: Late term abortion babies can be delivered usually right then and there, at the time of the abortion. It is murder. Murder one person, save many others from being murdered. This "doctor" isn't innocent.
The law states otherwise. It isn't murder as far as a jury should be concerned. So therefore, the doctor is in fact innocent in the eyes of the law. Now, whether you agree that the law is wrong or not, and whether the act is immoral, is a different story entirely and isn't addressed. It doesn't change the fact that the guy took it upon himself to kill a man in the name of the Lord because he didn't agree with what he was doing.
Quote: But it's a small penalty for the amount of lives he saved. And in many ways that's how I feel.
How about if a suicide bomber takes out some American soldiers, because he feels that their death will prevent the death of innocent Arabs? You respect that attitude?
I've been Pro-Life since I was in HS. I do not oppose abortion in situations of health of the mother, rape and incest.
First, an ex of mine hired him to perform his services. I was 21, she was 21. We were both in college and 2 years from graduating. We had a good relationship but clearly it wasn't going the distance. I fought her to the extent that I met with Wichita's former Mayor (who ended up resigning over death threats for fighting abortion's legality) and he even told me I had no say-so.
It's unimaginable to me to envision my life now with a child from that relationship. We went to WSU in Wichita and she now lives in PA where her husband (who she met immediately after the abortion) is now studying to be a Methodist Minister. I now live in Dallas and have moved from Kansas to Tennessee (go Tigers!) then onto Dallas while eventually finding my soulmate who I met in Mexico at a friend's wedding whom I would never have med had I been 'stuck' in Wichita.
I found out slightly after the abortion that the cost was less than expected; they were 'on sale' that day.
Nine years later, she called me (our friendship ended at the abortion in a very ugly way) and had since given her life to Christ, like I have. She asked me forgiveness for her decision to abort that baby. And I gladly gave it to her. We are friends now.
On the other hand, I graduated High School with his daughter. She was good people. MANY of my friends that know her and her family, who are Pro-Life, were devastated when he was killed. Seriously never heard a bad thing about him as a father and a family man. Even heard stories about how he talked many out of abortions.
So, I can see Roeder's point. I can see where he is coming from. And he did succeed in that the clinic never reopened. However, he took a human life himself to save human life which I feel is hypocritical.
I feel for Dr. Tiller's family. But I still don't agree with killing people to get what one thinks is morally right. I represent a married man who routinely talks about mistresses and strippers. It's not my job or responsibility to judge him, it's His job (and that is where I put my faith).
I don't believe in abortion, and I do think it's killing a child ..... but committing murder can't be justified.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: So, I can see Roeder's point. I can see where he is coming from. And he did succeed in that the clinic never reopened.
Quote: On the fence in many ways.
A guy walks into church full of people, and guns down a patron, and people are actually saying things like 'I can see where he's coming from'.
Unreal.
BIll Maher got in hot water a few years back after saying something to the tune of 'if Dick Cheney were killed, a lot of innocent lives would be saved'.
Now, I actually believe that there's a truth to what he said. I honestly do.
But I don't think that if someone walked into Dick's church, and blew his brains out in front of his friends and family, I'd 'see where he was coming from'.
I get the idea of relating to his point ... I kind of understand why people in the Middle East blow themselves up. I understand why they kill in the name of fervent beliefs ... I've heard their complaints, and some of them are valid complaints. But I would never say that I was 'on the fence in many ways'.
Anyone remember 'Free Mumia'? For those who don't, in the early 80's this prominent Black Panther journalist/radio host gets pulled over, gets in a dispute with the officer and ends up killing a cop in front of four witnesses. Open and shut case. Sentenced to death. All of the zealots go on this 'Free Mumia' campaign, and liberal academia does what the Christian right is doing right now -- condemning the act but hemming and hawing. 'I can see where he's come from, as a minority being pulled over and blah, blah, blah.'
No matter how right they are or how right they think they are ... once you start killing people to get your point across ... I can't see your point, nor do I even want to hear it, because you've got some serious mental problems.
Quote: I don't think anyone will change my opinion. Roeder deserves to go to jail, I feel no sympathy for Tillman at all. I feel more anger toward Tillman than I do Roeder. Roeder has killed once, Tillman has killed many times.
petey...who the hell is this "TILLMAN" you speak of?
Do you even read the stories you post?
Do you see "Tillman" referred to in your articles?
"Pat Tillman" died for his country in Afghanistan due to friendly fire..
You seem to using (Pat) Tillman's name "purposely", IMO...
Quote: How about if a suicide bomber takes out some American soldiers, because he feels that their death will prevent the death of innocent Arabs? You respect that attitude?
I wasn't asked but I'll toss in my answer. I don't understand the attitude of the Arabs so I can't respect it, and it certainly makes no sense to me their killing of civilians. But I can certainly see why these suicide bombers see their action as honorable in the case as you've defined. What if an Islamic army occupied the U.S. - wouldn't you respect the attitude of Americans to kill these foreigners? Don't you respect and even admire those in the Underground that fought against Nazi occupation? Would you be out there tossing flower petals at an occupying army?
Quote: petey...who the hell is this "TILLMAN" you speak of?
Do you even read the stories you post?
Do you see "Tillman" referred to in your articles?
"Pat Tillman" died for his country in Afghanistan due to friendly fire..
You seem to using (Pat) Tillman's name "purposely", IMO...
The abortion doctors name is "Tiller".. seems more like an honest mistake to me... seems like you are the one making the big leap to associate him mistakingly saying "Tillman" with Pat Tillman when there are thousands of Tillmans in the US...
Quote: The abortion doctors name is "Tiller".. seems more like an honest mistake to me... seems like you are the one making the big leap to associate him mistakingly saying "Tillman" with Pat Tillman when there are thousands of Tillmans in the US...
Exactly, I guess I screwed up the name when I was quickly typing the post.
Sorry folks. And may be I subconsciously was thinking of Pat Tillman, but definitely didn't even come across my concious mind when I was thinking of it. There's a lot of Tillman's out there. Even other Tillmans who played in the NFL. May be I'm a closet Bears fan and was thinking of Charles Tillman?
It's not something I focused on that much when I put up the article, and from there it just continued for me............
And that's just a rediculous incinuation (is that spelled right?) to say that i'm comparing him with Pat Tillman, Mac. Looking up the lastname on IMDB there are 136 matches. It's not a common last name but it's not like it's THAT rare. Take a look on facebook and search Tillman, there are many matches.
So I apologize for screwing up the last name, I'm not comparing Tiller to Pat Tillman in any way. Not intentionally at least.
I get your story Brownieforlife, and I've worried about those situations before myself (as a guy, that time of the month has often been annoying in my life (not because of PMS but because no sex!) but it's also relieving). But I do believe that if you are going to have an abortion, it's a decision to make very early on, before the baby is developed.
This murder is one of those issues where I can easily see that I'm the minority here though.........
And I also read your article AkBrownsfan, unfortunately, there are cases where the SINGLE doctor don't follow those procedures and illegally commit lateterm abortions. It's one of my issues with the practice. But definitely found your article interesting and informative.
Quote: No matter how right they are or how right they think they are ... once you start killing people to get your point across ... I can't see your point, nor do I even want to hear it, because you've got some serious mental problems.
Perhaps this is the part of your argument that I do not understand.. you state that you can't see his point because his actions went way to far, NOR DO YOU EVEN WANT TO HEAR IT... his point is that late term abortions are a barbaric destruction of viable human life and have no place in a civilized society that puts people in prison for killing cats and dogs.
So to use this one guys actions to not hear the point seems rather silly to me.
DC...you may believe it's OK to disrespect Pat "Tillman's" sacrifice by using his last name as a "hook" to get more people to read the thread...I DON'T...jmho
To me, ethically, both are scum. The inherent persons that committed both actions are not. Dr. Tiller, the abortionist is scum, and Mr. Roeder the murderer is scum. Dr. Tiller the human being, is not scum. Mr. Roeder the human being, is not scum.
Legally, Dr. Tiller wasn't found guilty. Legally, Dr. Tiller was innocent. Legally, Mr. Roeder is guilty. Legally, Mr. Roeder is not innocent. Legally, Mr. Roeder took the life of another unlawfully. Legally, Mr. Roeder had no right to do so. This is the reality of the situation, and this is the compromise of living in a society. We agree to abide by certain laws so that we can peacefully trade goods and services for sake of self-preservation.
Philosophically, I can see Dr. Tiller's view-point, but philosophically, I can also see Mr. Roeder's view-point. What view-point is correct? Both. Dr. Tiller was obeying a higher-power, but so was Mr. Roeder. Both were utilized as means to inevitable ends. As much as those who agree, or disagree with the events want to grumble, you cannot un-ring a bell. People, as individuals, are entitled to their choices but they are not entitled to their consequences. Both have, and will, reap the consequences of their individual decisions. This is also the reality of it. To argue what ought to be is irrelevant (in this situation) because what is, has been demonstrated to you.
This, by Mr. PhilDawsonRocks:
Quote: But I would never say that I was 'on the fence in many ways'.
Sitting on the fence, philosophically, is the only way. If not, you step into the realm of the ought-is problem.
(CNN) -- A Kansas jury deliberated just 40 minutes before convicting a man who said he killed to stop abortions guilty of first-degree murder.
The jury found Scott Roeder, 51, guilty of gunning down Dr. George Tiller, who operated a clinic in Wichita where late-term abortions were performed. Roeder, 51, faces life in prison when he is sentenced on March 9.
Roeder admitted shooting Tiller in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church as Sunday services began. He testified in his defense Thursday that he believed he had to kill Tiller to save the lives of unborn babies. He said he had no regrets.
"There was nothing being done, and the legal process had been exhausted, and these babies were dying every day," Roeder said. "I felt that if someone did not do something, he was going to continue."
"His testimony was delivered very matter-of-factly, but its contents were chillingly horrific," prosecutor Ann Swengel said in her closing argument. "He carried out a planned assassination, and there can be no other verdict in this case ... other than guilty."
Prosecutors initially fought to keep abortion out of the trial, claiming that Tiller's death was a straightforward case of premeditated murder.
Eventually, the abortion issue took center stage as prosecutors portrayed Tiller as a target of Roeder's anti-abortion agenda, and defense lawyers attempted to mitigate his culpability under the theory that he believed Tiller's death was justified to save the lives of others.
Defense attorney Mark Rudy told jurors in his closing argument that Roeder "thought that the babies kept on dying" and he had to stop Tiller from "killing more babies."
The trial drew activists from both sides of the abortion debate to the courtroom, and a van plastered with slogans and photographs of fetuses was parked in a prominent spot in front of the courthouse.
Among the attendees were the Rev. Michael Bray, whose history in the anti-abortion movement includes 1985 conspiracy convictions in connection with a string of clinic bombings, and Katherine Spillar, executive vice president of the Feminist Majority Foundation.
Congregants from Reformation Lutheran testified that they had seen Roeder at church several times before the day he killed Tiller by shooting him at point-blank range in the head.
Jurors heard emotional testimony from church-goers who rushed to Tiller's side and attempted to administer mouth-to-mouth resuscitation as he lay in a pool of blood. Others, meanwhile, followed Roeder into the church parking lot, where he threatened to shoot them.
As Roeder pulled away in his car, Martin testified, something moved him to throw the coffee cup he was holding at the vehicle. "Frustration, I guess, lack of accomplishment, nothing else to do."
Prosecutors also called employees of the pawn shop where Roeder purchased the .22-caliber Taurus pistol believed to have been used to shoot Roeder. The gun was never found, but surveillance video and receipts showed that he purchased the gun on May 18 and received it on May 23, the week before he shot Tiller.
Roeder's defense team did not dispute much of the factual evidence. Roeder testified that he chose to target Tiller at church because it presented the best "window of opportunity" to attack Tiller, who traveled in an armored vehicle and whose clinic was a "fortress."
He admitted bringing the pistol with him to Lutheran Reformation on May 24 with the intention of shooting Tiller, but the physician did not attend services that day. So, Roeder testified, he returned the following week.
"Do you feel as though you've successfully completed your mission?" Sedgwick County District Attorney Nola Foulston asked Roeder on Thursday.
"He's been stopped," Roeder answered.
His testimony was intended just as much for the jury as it was to convince Judge Warren Wilbert that evidence existed to support a possible conviction of voluntary manslaughter. A conviction on the lesser offense, which is defined as "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force," would have set Roeder free from prison after five years.
Earlier in the trial, Wilbert said he would rule after hearing evidence in the case, acknowledging that he felt the defense faced "an uphill battle." Ultimately, he rejected the theory, saying testimony did not support the defense claim that Roeder's beliefs justified using deadly force against Tiller.
"There is no imminence of danger on a Sunday morning in the back of a church, let alone any unlawful conduct, given that what Tiller did at his clinic Monday through Friday is lawful in Kansas," the judge said.
~Lyuokdea
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
Quote: DC...you may believe it's OK to disrespect Pat "Tillman's" sacrifice by using his last name as a "hook" to get more people to read the thread...I DON'T...jmho
I don't understand what the hell you're talking about mac....calling Tiller tillman would probably hurt his cause.... and i'm pretty sure it was an honest mistake.
~Lyuokdea
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 01/29/1001:31 PM.
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
Quote: his point is that late term abortions are a barbaric destruction of viable human life
Did you read AkBrownsfan's link DC? It's not destruction of viable human life the majority of the time.
Yea, I read the link.. wonderful piece of objective journalism it was too..
I've read a lot more on the subject from far more objective sources than Jodi Johnson... some of her facts are right, but her quotes are selective and imply that only right wing fringe radicals don't see things her way...
To be fair, yes, that link lacks any objective neutrality:
". . .affiliated with extremist right-wing groups. . ."
". . .and talking heads. . ."
". . .Dr. Tiller by members of the extremist right -- who incite lunatics to violence by protraying Tiller as a mass murderer. . ."
That's why it's a blog -- when an individual starts using anecdotes, and political labels like 'right this' or 'left that', the individual are pushing a personal philosophy and assuming far too many generalizations.
Her legal definitions are helpful though, but those aren't her own and are sourced from objective legal codes.
Quote: "There is no imminence of danger on a Sunday morning in the back of a church, let alone any unlawful conduct, given that what Tiller did at his clinic Monday through Friday is lawful in Kansas," the judge said.
And that's the bottom line. Legally, justice is served.
Exactly, I wish people understood that.. she has some decent information and facts in there but to anybody who doesn't immediately agree with her... it's hard to read her article and take her seriously with her severely biased editorial comments.. the good information sort of gets lost.
but then I remembered the other acronym that ALF stands for...![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png)
![[Linked Image from thumb0.webshots.net]](http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/34/34/0/73/58/2594073580091396520Miskbz_th.jpg)
