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So Phil it is your contention then that if he had burst into the clinic and shot Tiller just before he killed another unborn baby, then this would somehow be more understandable right? I mean a large part of your argument seems to center on the fact that he did it in a church, in front of other innocent people and his family, etc...... so if the situation was different, would your opinion be different?
No, my opinion wouldn't be different.
But his method makes the crime all the more heinous.
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Phil I know it's a whole lot easier to just call him a lunatic, a mentally deranged and unstable fringe radical that deserves the electric chair and leave it at that... rather than actually try to get inside his head and figure out when and why he snapped...
I agree completely, although it doesn't negate the fact that he has mental problems.
I've said what you've just said for years ... about terrorists, that kid at VA Tech ... yes, it's very important to not just say 'oh, they hate our freedom' or 'he's evil' ... but it doesn't negate that the guy had mental problems, and latched onto some zany religious beliefs. Those two aspects are very important parts of 'why'.
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I also fully understand that you mistake my desire to understand why he did what he did with excusing what he did... though you couldn't be more wrong.
Actually, I almost typed out a whole 'I'm not speaking directly to you' ... I found your take to be more rational.
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If a guy in your city was killing 2 week old babies because they had a terminal illness or were severely handicapped and the law refused to do anything about it, would the reaction be anything but disgust? Would the guy that stopped him by putting a bullet in his head be considered a lunatic fringe radical religious nutjob? I'm just curious.
I'm not entirely familiar with the Tiller situation, but I'm fairly confident he's never killed a two week old baby.
Beyond that ... yes, the guy who killed a person solely because he thought that said person was violating laws he believed to be true but weren't would, in my opinion, classify as mentally disturbed and possessing very disturbed religious views.
Bottom line ... there is ZERO difference between this cat and those who kill in the name of radical Islam. Absolutely zero.
And yet on this thread, you hear words like 'respect' and 'completely understand' in relation to him ... laughable and disturbing all at the same time.
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As much as I oppose egoism abortions, Dr. Tiller was tried, and acquitted. The legal process took its course, and he wasn't found guilty. Do I agree? No, I think Dr. Tiller, the abortionist, was a complete monster, but there is no way to defend Mr. Roeder's actions without inconsistencies. Mr. Roeder, the murderer, was also a complete monster. Frankly, nature took its course. Dr. Tiller ought not to have been murdered the way he was, but Dr. Tiller was. Mr. Roeder ought not have taken it upon himself to deal justice but Mr. Roeder did. We can argue about hypothetical assertions all day long but the reality of the situation is none of the oughts happened. As a Christian, I have no objections to the reality, or is'. Quote:
I'm not entirely familiar with the Tiller situation, but I'm fairly confident he's never killed a two week old baby.
Look him up. He committed many crimes against humanity.
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As a Christian, I have no objections to the reality, or is'.
As a non-Christian, I have plenty.
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Look him up. He committed many crimes against humanity.
I've been doing so for about the last hour...
The biggest problem I have with TIller after reading up on him is it seems his rate of malpractice is quite high.
I don't really have a problem with late-term abortions in cases where the child is going to have a genetic disease, malformation, extreme mental deficiency, etc.
Late-term abortions for a healthy mother and child (what I assume you mean where you say 'ego' abortions?) ... I don't think I could be a part of it, I have some moral reservations about it ... but I don't know that I have the authority to say no to it.
Logically, I see the best course of action for the quandry is to agree upon a cut-off date for when such practices cannot proceed, and to have a system in place that lays all of the options/alternatives out for the participant.
I'm not exactly certain of Tiller's record on this ... was he performing abortions after the state-mandated cut-off date?
If that's the case, I'd be all for jailing the guy.
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Guess what - I'll feel free to respect any guy who murders bin Laden too. You've just professed either (1) you won't or (2) you'll be a hypocrite.
Once again, feel free to judge if you will. But if you are a deeply religious person whatsoever, you know that God tells you not to. So have at it.
My simple truth is this; Let each man do whatever they believe to be right and let God sort it out in the end. I'm not judging the guy who killed the abortion doctor. That's not my job. Just like it's not yours to judge what I would do if I had a chance to kill bin Ladin, or what that would or would not make me.
But go ahead as you have done. I doubt you would ever listen to me as it would appear you are ignoring the word of someone far more powerfull than myself.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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As a non-Christian, I have plenty.
Let me clarify myself when I say I have no objections: I have no objections towards Dr. Tiller, the abortionist, legally (he was acquitted). I have no objections towards Mr. Roeder, the murderer, legally (he was sentenced). I have plenty philosophical objections towards Dr. Tiller, the abortionist, and I also have plenty philosophical objections towards Mr. Roeder, the murderer. Do I understand both of their world-views? Yes, but reality does not, will not, and has not. The facts are: Dr. Tiller, the abortionist, is dead, and Mr. Roeder, the murderer, has been prosecuted.
Both were entitled to their choices, but they were not entitled to cherry-picked consequences. So, objections or not, there's no un-ringing a bell.
As you said yourself, summed up nicely, all of the above:
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I don't know that I have the authority to say no to it.
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Late-term abortions for a healthy mother and child (what I assume you mean where you say 'ego' abortions?) ... I don't think I could be a part of it, I have some moral reservations about it
What I mean by egoism, or more specifically egotism abortions:
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. . .means placing oneself at the center of one's world with no direct concern for others, including those loved or considered as "close". . .
Abortions for the sake of convenience, or protecting the self from external inconveniences, or further responsibility of caring for another's life is what I mean by egotism abortion, it's a denial of man's foundational liberty, or the right to life (this also follows from my definition of life beginning upon the quickening).
I have no objections to abortions when the mother's life is in inevitable danger. It may appear arbitrary, but the intent is what defines it.
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I'm not exactly certain of Tiller's record on this ... was he performing abortions after the state-mandated cut-off date?
If that's the case, I'd be all for jailing the guy.
That's irrelevant, honestly. If he was acquitted, there wasn't much else to be done, legally.
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Your post makes many valid points and I agree with your view.
And on another note, why the concern over death? IF Christians feel our bodies are simply a temporary vessel of the soul and that this life is nothing but a brief moment in the time of eternity? And IF they feel they will be going to heaven to live this blessed eternal life they speak of?
Why fear death or find it so very offensive?
I don't believe you go to heaven when you die but rather are in a sleep-like state until the resurrection (s). After all, if our souls and spirits are in heaven when we die, who will be there to resurect? The Bible speaks of resurrection (s) and "Judgement day". ( Rev. )
So for the life of me I can't fatham who would be there to reserrect if you've already been judged?
There's a lot about modern Christianity that makes little to no sense to me. Like keeping all of these pagan customs on holidays then trying to rationalize it and actually slap God in the face by accepting and practicing it on what are supposed to be Christian holidays as if it's no big deal? I could go on but I won't. lol
But if you believe there is a wonderful, eternal life after this temporary one, why wouldn't you embrace it, want it and be glad to get there, rather than fear it, loathe someone for practices that bring it on quicker?
Seems like a lot of fear and hate being spread by many who's own beliefs tell them to follow the exact opposite path. It seems so easy to see I wonder why they can't?
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Bottom line ... there is ZERO difference between this cat and those who kill in the name of radical Islam. Absolutely zero.
And yet on this thread, you hear words like 'respect' and 'completely understand' in relation to him ... laughable and disturbing all at the same time.
Thanks Phil. 
That pretty well sums up my opinion in a much shorter way than I ever could have.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Why fear death or find it so very offensive?
I don't believe you go to heaven when you die but rather are in a sleep-like state until the resurrection (s). After all, if our souls and spirits are in heaven when we die, who will be there to resurect? The Bible speaks of resurrection (s) and "Judgement day". ( Rev. )
So for the life of me I can't fatham who would be there to reserrect if you've already been judged?
There's a lot about modern Christianity that makes little to no sense to me. Like keeping all of these pagan customs on holidays then trying to rationalize it and actually slap God in the face by accepting and practicing it on what are supposed to be Christian holidays as if it's no big deal? I could go on but I won't. lol
To be fair, the ability to be absolutely certain is on par with omniscience, and man isn't capable of such knowledge. The fear of death, or life after death, is based on the uncertainty of probability, or the lack of being absolutely certain. If it's only probable, there's a small chance of improbability, and that is where the fear of death comes from. Christian or not. There's a reason why Peter denied Christ three times, and Thomas wasn't converted until he was able to touch his wounds.
Modern Christianity has come a long way, theologically. Our forefathers didn't have the scientific knowledge, or technological privileges we have today, and sometime in the future, there will be others' saying the same thing about us.
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And on another note, why the concern over death? IF Christians feel our bodies are simply a temporary vessel of the soul and that this life is nothing but a brief moment in the time of eternity? And IF they feel they will be going to heaven to live this blessed eternal life they speak of?
Why fear death or find it so very offensive?
But if you believe there is a wonderful, eternal life after this temporary one, why wouldn't you embrace it, want it and be glad to get there, rather than fear it, loathe someone for practices that bring it on quicker?
Seems like a lot of fear and hate being spread by many who's own beliefs tell them to follow the exact opposite path. It seems so easy to see I wonder why they can't?
For the most part, I agree. Death is not something to fear. Now, don't take that to mean I want to hurry it. 
The Bible tells us many things - some seem conflicting, and in all actuality probably ARE conflicting. One thing "believers" know is there is life after death. Death is nothing to fear, IF.........
But Christians also believe that life on earth is to be cherished - therefore, we don't rush death - if I can put it that way.
Not sure if that makes sense to you - not sure if it makes sense to me - I have a lot going on right now.
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The way you worded it and phrased it makes lots of sense Arch.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Once again, feel free to judge if you will. But if you are a deeply religious person whatsoever, you know that God tells you not to. So have at it.
My simple truth is this; Let each man do whatever they believe to be right and let God sort it out in the end. I'm not judging the guy who killed the abortion doctor. That's not my job. Just like it's not yours to judge what I would do if I had a chance to kill bin Ladin, or what that would or would not make me.
But go ahead as you have done. I doubt you would ever listen to me as it would appear you are ignoring the word of someone far more powerfull than myself.
jmho
I think it is time to look at the facts.
(1) Nowhere in this thread have I stepped into God's shoes as others have done here and expressed an opinion on the eternal destiny of either Tiller or Roeder.
(2) You view my opinion of respecting one murderer over another as twisted and now you are preaching to me about making judgements. Unbelieveable!
From my quick glance let's look back at what you have previously posted:
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If the man believes what he says, he's no better than the doctor. Murder is murder and he is no less guilty of the crime. Sometimes reality bites and once again, if he believes what he says there will also be a special place in hell for him as well.
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So we have two people you feel are murderers but respect one more because you feel he had more of a right to murder. Pretty twisted stuff right there imo
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Bottom line ... there is ZERO difference between this cat and those who kill in the name of radical Islam. Absolutely zero.
Actually there is a significant difference. To equate this to radical Islam, Roeder would have observed what Tiller did, plotted out his attack, then concealled his weapon, snuck it into church on that fine Sunday morning, placed himself behind Tiller in the church pews, then at just the right time, he would have pulled the gun from under his coat, and shot Tillers kids.
THAT is how radical Islam works.
yebat' Putin
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Yes, you have made the judgement that given the oppertunity to kill Bin Ladin I either would not do it or be a hypocrite. IF the man believes in the ten commandments, that judge ye not or ye too shall also be judged, vengence is mine saith the Lord, then he must also realise that he will go to hell too. At least according to the very book of the Bible. Which I did not write BTW If he follows and believes the Bible. That's based on if he even believes the Bible and what it says. And yes, murder is murder no matter how you rationalise it. Fact. And the jury backed up that fact. I didn't make that judgement. The jury did.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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As it pertains to the nuances of how the murder may be commited you may have a point. But clearly there are stark comparisons. In both casses they use their religion to rationalise that murder is fine as long as it is steeped in religious belief.
Therein lies the very crux of the issue that makes both very much alike. Religious zealots that think murder is a fine vehicle in the name of their respective religion. One no better than the other.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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At least according to the very book of the Bible. Which I did not write BTW If he follows and believes the Bible. That's based on if he even believes the Bible and what it says.
You may not say you wrote it, but you sure are interpreting it for others, and passing it off as if you wrote it. I can tell you right now, as a Christian, with much logged time studying theology and Scripture that I do not believe in an eternal damnation, or hell, so, please, don't assert your interpretation as the measuring stick for theological hermeneutics.
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Let me clarify myself when I say I have no objections: I have no objections towards Dr. Tiller, the abortionist, legally (he was acquitted). I have no objections towards Mr. Roeder, the murderer, legally (he was sentenced). I have plenty philosophical objections towards Dr. Tiller, the abortionist, and I also have plenty philosophical objections towards Mr. Roeder, the murderer. Do I understand both of their world-views? Yes, but reality does not, will not, and has not. The facts are: Dr. Tiller, the abortionist, is dead, and Mr. Roeder, the murderer, has been prosecuted.
Both were entitled to their choices, but they were not entitled to cherry-picked consequences. So, objections or not, there's no un-ringing a bell.
I understand what you're saying ... but I don't think anyone's necessarily taking about un-ringing any bells.
Tiller's line of work left him open to this ... he had even been shot before. On the same token, becoming the President of the United States also carries with it the possibility of being a target.
In a thread on a presidential assassination, I don't think that thought would surface.
I do see your point, though.
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Abortions for the sake of convenience, or protecting the self from external inconveniences, or further responsibility of caring for another's life is what I mean by egotism abortion, it's a denial of man's foundational liberty, or the right to life (this also follows from my definition of life beginning upon the quickening).
I don't necessarily see it that way, but I do have respect for that viewpoint.
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That's irrelevant, honestly. If he was acquitted, there wasn't much else to be done, legally.
Irrelevant or not, I was asking ... has he performed abortions after the state-mandated cut-off date? Not a snarky question to prove a point or bring up rhetoric ... I honestly wanted to know.
I'm guessing by the phrasing of your response that he was brought up on charges for it and acquitted?
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Yes, you have made the judgement that given the oppertunity to kill Bin Ladin I either would not do it or be a hypocrite.
Well allow me to apologize for being ambiguous in my original reply (I inserted it below). In my post I was NOT referring to you yourself killing bin Laden. The way I got it figured, after all this time if he gets knocked off it'll be done by a Judas-like figure, somebody he mistakenly trusts. Either way, I take your interpretation of the Bible is that it is wrong of me to hold any such opinion of you. Quite honestly (if you're right) on my day of reckoning I'm not so much fearful of my judgement about you in comparison to my grave concern about Him knowing my opinion of the Steelers.
And speaking of the day of reckoning, while taking the dogs for a walk the other night I was mulling over in my mind which one (if I had to choose) I would want to be - Roeder or Tiller? At first it was Roeder, but as I walked further my choice began leaning towards Tiller. For the simple reason that I think as Tiller I would be more sincere in repenting my sins.
Now as far as respecting one murderer over another, I got another one for you all. The guy I respect more in this one (let's call him "A") killed "B" who just a few days before had been apprehended for the murder of "C". And what really makes it twisted is that it wouldn't at all surprise me if it was proven that "A" was somehow involved in the original murder of "C" that "B" would have gone to trial for. Upon the news of the killing of "B" I recall my mother's reaction was to say that she would have done the same thing as "A". So I guess my feelings for these things is inherited. I'll allow you to guess the identities of "A" and "B" and "C". As a hint, it happened between 45 and 50 years ago.
Referring back to my post:
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Guess what - I'll feel free to respect any guy who murders bin Laden too. You've just professed either (1) you won't or (2) you'll be a hypocrite.
Last edited by Reckon; 02/04/10 03:49 AM.
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I'm guessing by the phrasing of your response that he was brought up on charges for it and acquitted?
He was. In the OP's article, near the end, it states:
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Wilbert refused to allow former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline to testify on behalf of the defense. On Wednesday, he refused to allow testimony from current Deputy Attorney General Barry Disney. Kline unsuccessfully attempted to prosecute Tiller in 2006. Disney charged Tiller with 19 misdemeanor counts, but a jury acquitted the doctor.
Wilbert said Roeder can testify about the cases and how they affected his beliefs, but to allow testimony from Kline would "get into legal matters that do not concern this jury."
And, the judge said, the cases do not give Roeder a basis to state absolutely that Tiller's actions were illegal, since the doctor had never been convicted.
Defense attorneys claim Roeder was led to shoot Tiller in part because of authorities' failure to punish him through the judicial system.
Roeder testified he was "very frustrated" by Tiller's acquittal, saying it "seemed like that was the last attempt by the state of Kansas to find if there was anything at all going on illegally in George Tiller's clinic."
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I made it rather simple. Each man has to do what's right for himself on any given situation. Their actions will then be judged at some point in the future. Sometimes on earth as well.
Killing someone based on religious beliefs is precisely what Muslim Fundamentalists do in the name of Allah and we condemn it. Yet if it's done based on Christian principals people tend to be more understanding.
Yet in the end the two are no different. Both do it in the name of their God and for their own reasoning. Why is one any less guilty than the other? Don't really need to play ABC's to look at it imo
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Killing someone based on religious beliefs is precisely what Muslim Fundamentalists do in the name of Allah and we condemn it. Yet if it's done based on Christian principals people tend to be more understanding.
The reason you're coming to these conclusions is generalization. You must learn to understand what some are and what all are. I can certainly tell you that some condemn it, but there are some who don't condemn it. There are some who tend to be more understanding towards Christian principles but there are some who are not understanding towards Christian principles.
When you stop conflating individuals with a majority, and a majority with individuals, confusion ceases.
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It seems that's already pretty much understood. When someone kills based on their religious principals it's wrong. To commit murder in and of itself is wrong, be it a Christian, athiest or Muslim. None are less guilty or "less wrong" than the other.
To be "more understanding" to either would tend to show that people simply can't comprehend murder is wrong no matter who commits it. That one is no less guilty or wrong than the other. You know, the basics?
jmho
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When someone kills based on their religious principals it's wrong. To commit murder in and of itself is wrong, be it a Christian, athiest or Muslim. None are less guilty or "less wrong" than the other.
jmho
I agree. It's never justified, though I do understand how some justify it based of a belief or emotional tie.
No doubt, shooting the Doc was wrong even if what he was doing isn't right and is probably murder as well.
Until the laws change, you have to follow the law, or pay the consequences.
For some, the consequences are worth it, so back to the title of the thread, I would be disappointed if the guy was now sorry for his actions.
That would show he didn't think about his actions....and that would be sorry to not consider all of the implications before acting as such.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I made it rather simple. Each man has to do what's right for himself on any given situation. Their actions will then be judged at some point in the future. Sometimes on earth as well.
Killing someone based on religious beliefs is precisely what Muslim Fundamentalists do in the name of Allah and we condemn it. Yet if it's done based on Christian principals people tend to be more understanding.
Yet in the end the two are no different. Both do it in the name of their God and for their own reasoning. Why is one any less guilty than the other? Don't really need to play ABC's to look at it imo
Why do you ask me about things I have not asserted? I have expressed that I do not share the respect you and others here have for a baby killer. And you know what? I also have different levels of respect for others besides these two. Are you going to equate my overwhelming preference of Louis Armstrong over Lawrence Welk in some way with Christians and Muslims too? You seem to be acting guilty over something.
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Guilty? Nope. You pose points and I pose counterpoints. Kind of the very point of having a forum isn't it? Oh well. 
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It seems that's already pretty much understood. When someone kills based on their religious principals it's wrong. To commit murder in and of itself is wrong, be it a Christian, athiest or Muslim. None are less guilty or "less wrong" than the other.
To be "more understanding" to either would tend to show that people simply can't comprehend murder is wrong no matter who commits it. That one is no less guilty or wrong than the other. You know, the basics?
Pit, I completely concur that murder is wrong.... However I am more "understanding" of one than I am the other because I can relate to one better than the other... for example, if I see a man mercilessly beating a child, I can relate to the feeling of wanting to hurt THAT PERSON. I think that is a perfectly rational feeling..
If I feel another nation has wronged the United States, I cannot relate to the feeling or the urge to randomly blow up thousands of innocent citizens of that other country as a way of expressing my rage. I feel that is a totally irrational feeling...
I don't want to kill Muslims for what Bin Laden did, I want to kill Bin Laden for what Bin Laden did.
It has nothing to do with me valuing the Christian motive over the Muslim motive... it has everything to do with me being about to relate to people who focus their rage on the appropriate people and not just lash out at people who had absolutely nothing to do with it.
yebat' Putin
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Just clicking DC.
I have stayed out of this thread but I believe both men were sick, and both men were wrong. I just find it ironic that the DR. was killed without being given a choice to live, just like the children he killed who were not given a choice.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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Pit, I completely concur that murder is wrong....
Well at least we're on the same page so far.
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However I am more "understanding" of one than I am the other because I can relate to one better than the other... for example, if I see a man mercilessly beating a child, I can relate to the feeling of wanting to hurt THAT PERSON. I think that is a perfectly rational feeling..
So would you then say that "understanding such an act" is based to some extent on one's perspective?
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If I feel another nation has wronged the United States, I cannot relate to the feeling or the urge to randomly blow up thousands of innocent citizens of that other country as a way of expressing my rage. I feel that is a totally irrational feeling...
Okay here's where it gets deep. lol
Many of the actions our country has taken in the middle east are for our nations best interest. I understand the why's and how's of most of it. But let's face reality DC.
We have instaled many demonsterative dictators. Many innocent civilians have died in their countries either by us directly or by governemnts we've backed and helped install.
And in reality, not only do the Jews consider that their holy ground (The Nation of Israel) but the Muslims consider it their holy ground and birth right as well.
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I don't want to kill Muslims for what Bin Laden did, I want to kill Bin Laden for what Bin Laden did.
If it were only that simple that would be nice. But we as a nation support Israel. We as a people vote in the powers that be which wage wars and install these dictators and we do it on our own accord. Our leader pretty much tried and convicted Sadaam for WMD and a threat to Israel and ourselves, when in reality he was still decimated from the Gulf War and no WMD ever surfaced. And we were so scared as a nation that we supported that war. Does that help you understand why they see their problems come from "us"?
At the very least 10's of thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens died by our hands. So it is we as a people overall they blame for so many of their people's deaths and stealing their holy land from them.
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has nothing to do with me valuing the Christian motive over the Muslim motive... it has everything to do with me being about to relate to people who focus their rage on the appropriate people and not just lash out at people who had absolutely nothing to do with it.
I think it has everything to do with perspective. I condone neither yet can be objective enough to understand the rationale behind both. I see both as equaly wrong. I think if you consider all of these factors, maybe you can understand it, while not condonibg it yourself.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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. Our leader pretty much tried and convicted Sadaam for WMD and a threat to Israel and ourselves
I missed that. Saddam wasn't tried by the U.S. WMD had nothing to do with his trial - oops, take that back. The wmd he used against his own citizens had everything to do with his trial.
Sadam ws tried by his fellow countrymen. He was found guilty of ordering the death of thousands of his citizens.
Bush had nothing to do with the trial. The U.S. had nothing to do with the trial. The Iraqi citizens, and the Iraqi court system handled the proceedings. They were in charge of the charges against Saddam. We had nothing to do with it, other than making it an option for the Iraqi citizens.
What does Israel have to do with this anyway?
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Dawg Talker
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Guilty? Nope. You pose points and I pose counterpoints. Kind of the very point of having a forum isn't it? Oh well.
So, how do you view capital punishment?
I waiver on my opinion of the death penalty. I guess that comes from again having the view that it isn't the case that "murder is murder" and certain crimes seem particularly cruel. Roeder may have deserved it, but I would have found it easy to pray for his soul without feeling insincere.
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Legend
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Yeah Arch I guess you did miss my meaning. He addressed our nation using these reasons for the reason to start a war in Iraq.( thus the term of judging him ) Thus garnering support for the war from the vast amount of our nation as as a direct result, a vast majority of the politicians in power.
If you lived there and watched all of that and your own family ended up dead innocent victims as a result? How would you feel?
Point being there are two sides to every story. One just needs to look closly and objectivly enough to see them both.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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So, how do you view capital punishment?
I waiver on my opinion of the death penalty.
I do as well. And since it is a matter of life and death I decline to support it until such time as I'm 100% sure on my view of it one way or the other.
I'd be a bad juror in regards to finding someone guilty and an impossible one to get to vote for the death penalty. To send someone t prison for life I would need a great deal of certainty to take such an action. When I was yopunger I supported the death penalty. But with age I've considered things far more carefully. So I guess you could say I flip flopped on the issue. 
Or you could say that I'm not afraid or ashamed that I could have been wrong or pre-judgemental about a very critical issue. It's all a matter of one's perception as per usual.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Hall of Famer
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J/C
Both Roeder and Tiller were BOTH wrong and will be judged accordingly.
In the eyes of the Lord Tiller is just as guilty as Roeder....
As for getting into the whole God debate, here is something to think about.
Jesus said" the two most important rules are:
1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart.
2. Love thy neighbor as you love thy self.
Jesus said you treat ALL people the way you would like to be treated.
so ask yourself a question, if YOU were that baby inside your mother, would you want to be aborted? would you want some doctor to kill you? any sane person would say NO WAY.
There's your answer, all the rest of it is nothing more then psychological reassurances and rationalizations to help people feel better and to sleep at night about it.
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Legend
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Jesus said you treat ALL people the way you would like to be treated.
That's quite a twist there.
So if Roeder treated Tillman the way he would want to be treated, it would be your assertion that Roeder wanted Tillman to kill him?
I find that to be highly unlikely.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
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. Our leader pretty much tried and convicted Sadaam for WMD and a threat to Israel and ourselves
I missed that. Saddam wasn't tried by the U.S. WMD had nothing to do with his trial - oops, take that back. The wmd he used against his own citizens had everything to do with his trial.
Sadam ws tried by his fellow countrymen. He was found guilty of ordering the death of thousands of his citizens.
Bush had nothing to do with the trial. The U.S. had nothing to do with the trial. The Iraqi citizens, and the Iraqi court system handled the proceedings. They were in charge of the charges against Saddam. We had nothing to do with it, other than making it an option for the Iraqi citizens.
What does Israel have to do with this anyway?
Arch...below is an excerpt from a 2004 article...read the last line of excerpt below...
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The Iraqis met with experts from the International Criminal Court, based in The Hague, and the war crimes tribunals for Rwanda, Sierra Leone, East Timor and the former Yugoslavia, Laurel Miller of the Washington-based Institute of Peace, a non-governmental organization that arranged the visit, told reporters earlier this month.
Miller said the work of trying war crimes and other atrocities was formidable because of the huge amount of information presented.
“In a war crimes case, there are lots of witnesses, lots of victims, and the volume of documentary evidence is much greater than in an ordinary criminal case,” she said.
In preparation, the Bush administration has said it would send a special “regime crimes” adviser and launch investigations in the coming months.
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Arch...those stubborn facts keep getting in the way when you comment on anything that has W. in it.
I have no problem with the US helping out the Iraqi's on setting up their legal system and I could care less about Saddam's execution other than all it took was a bullet..a war was unnecessary. The USA should never have gone to "nation building" in Iraq, IMO.
But back to the subject...Arch...why do you make comments such as the USA or Bush had nothing to do with Saddam's trial when the facts are the opposite?
The United States taxpayers even paid for the courtroom and TV cameras so certain people in the USA could follow the court case. The United States government and Bush had their fingerprints all over the made for TV Saddam trial/case.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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No PittDawg
If Roeder would followed the golden rule as a Christian is supposed to he would have NEVER killed Tiller in the first place or even thought about it at all.
If Tiller would have followed the golden rule since he claimed to be a Christian, he would have never been carrying out abortions or even thinking about doing it.
both men are guilty of violating that basic rule.
no Roeder would NOT have wanted Tiller to kill him...therefore it just further proves my point that this stuff just shouldn't happen.
I sometimes wonder with stuff like abortion, etc that political correctness has taken very simple problems with very simple solutions and try to mix them into some soft of complicated problem and solution which is not true at all.
these are very simple answers to relatively very simple questions...
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Legend
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The Iraqis met with experts from the International Criminal Court, based in The Hague, and the war crimes tribunals for Rwanda, Sierra Leone, East Timor and the former Yugoslavia,
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In preparation, the Bush administration has said it would send a special “regime crimes” adviser and launch investigations in the coming months.
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So, the Iraqi's met with experts from the International Criminal Court, based in The Hague, and the war crimes tribunals for Rwanda, Sierra Leone, East Timor and the former Yugoslavia, and yet Bush tried and convicted Sadam? Or the U.S. tried and convicted Sadam?
Talk about pesky facts - even your failed attempt at proving that proved otherwise.
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1st String
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1st String
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My question to anyone that has a serious opinion one way or the other on the abortion issue is why is it so important to have a say in what your fellow man does with his life? If we all minded to our own lives more and worry less about what our neighbor is doing we would all be better off. As far as I'm concerned religion and morality belief seems to dictate how we view our fellow man. Are you the one to tell me how I should live my life or what I should believe in? Think about it, I believe if it's not any of my business then don't worry about it. And if you want to run my life then please pay my bills! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Dawg Talker
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The issue goes beyond a single life. I view right-to-lifers as today's equivalent to the abolistionist of 150 years ago.
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Interesting.
Now, how many of you truly believe that killing this doctor, "saved lives"?
Does that mean that women who seek abortions suddenly won't find another doctor?
Secondly, those who feel so strongly against abortion doctors, why aren't the women seeking these procedures, equally villified. Without patients, there are no doctors.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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All Pro
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All Pro
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Just clicking. And a touchy one too. Quote:
Interesting.
Now, how many of you truly believe that killing this doctor, "saved lives"?
Does that mean that women who seek abortions suddenly won't find another doctor?
Secondly, those who feel so strongly against abortion doctors, why aren't the women seeking these procedures, equally villified. Without patients, there are no doctors.
there are no doctors
Do not tell anyone that these men and woman who perform abortions are doctors. I am sure they do not revel in the task.
To the pro-life (cough) people. "Abortionists"? really?
Who in the hell coined that term anyways? It is a joke.
I think maybe I should go out and save the DOCTORS from whoever uses that term. By whatever means. Would it be justified to save lives?
I would be saving lives.
I fail to see why anyone thinks it is someones goal in life to abort unwanted fetus' or late term ... whatever.
On the other hand, maybe I should all go down to the local clinic and try to save these poor women and children from the evil "abortionists'.
Besides we need more cannon fodder for the war effort.
Einstein could not even fathom the mathematical improbabilities of the Browns woes.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Roeder doesn't regret killing
Tillman (Late Term Abortion
"Doctor")
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