DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum *** Cavs February Thread ***

The lakers bench sucks anyways

I have a few buddies out in Phoenix and they feel the same way. He's not a "vocal" guy in the lockeroom. However that's Lebron and Shaqs job here.

I think the Cavs can win it all this year as currently constructed. With Stoudamire, it should be just a formality.

I hope it happens. The City of Cleveland deserves it. I want it more for that than anything.

The only thing I wory about in this trade is the possibility that Shaq gets too much work while Z is on "hiatus".

Now, is the 30 day thing 30 calendar days? If they make the trade today, for example, and then immediately buy out Z, would he then have to sit out 30 days including the All Star break?

We also have Jawad Williams to help down low as well.

What do you think we do about a Center next year? We will almost have to look hard at the Center position in next year's drraft.

How much do you think it will hurt Shaq to not have Z there to glare at him before games ......?

If you don't want to put yourself through that misery, the college football all star drills is on espn 2 right now. Anything invloving players they we could potentially pick in the draft is interesting.

Cavs Close To Amare But Deal Won't Happen Sunday
More Cavaliers News


The Cavaliers and Suns are getting close to a trade that would send All-Star forward Amare Stoudemire to Cleveland, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard.

Cleveland would send Zydrunas Ilgauskas and forward J.J. Hickson to Phoenix for Stoudemire.

While the Cavaliers remain in talks with other teams, sources indicate that Cleveland has settled on Stoudemire as their main target.

RealGM Update: According to a Tweet by Brian Windhorst, Stoudemire won't be dealt on All-Star Sunday. The Cavaliers are hoping to receive a 'yes or no' from the Suns early this week.

web page

Not a done deal as of yet.

can someone answer me this, i am horrible with all the different facets of how contracts work

but do the cavs get the rights to offer more money to amare, if they acquire him and he opts out in the summer? is it the same situation as lebron?

Yes, the Cavs would be able to do that, baring that Gilbert was willing to spend the dough.

Another article by Chris Broussard (who wrote about the serious talks):

Quote:

---

Sources: Teams sweeten Amare offers

While Cleveland has zeroed in on Amare Stoudemire, it benefits the Suns to let the process play out until the last hours before Thursday's deadline.

Sources with knowledge of the negotiations said Saturday night that the Cavs and Suns were in serious talks about a deal that would send Zydrunas Ilgauskas and J.J. Hickson to Phoenix in exchange for Stoudemire, one of the league's most dominant big man.

Stoudemire is averaging 21.2 points and 8.6 rebounds on the season.

But reports that the five-time All-Star Stoudemire could be headed to Cleveland have led other clubs to spice up their offers to Phoenix, according to sources.

The ball is now in Phoenix's court.

The Suns are mulling over whether the financial relief provided by Ilgauskas' $12 million contract -- they'll likely waive Ilgauskas after the trade -- and the young and talented Hickson are enough for them to part with an impact player like Stoudemire.

And the Cavaliers have to be fairly certain that Stoudemire would be willing to re-sign with them before giving up the fast-improving Hickson.

However, according to sources, Philadelphia's Andre Iguodala, appears to be the Suns' top choice.

So far, the Sixers have been leery of giving up their best player for Stoudemire.

While Stoudemire has good relationships with LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal, some close to Stoudemire believe Miami -- where he lives during the summer -- is his first choice.

Miami has pursued Stoudemire hard but has no one on its roster (besides Dwyane Wade) that interests Phoenix, according to sources. That includes Michael Beasley. So it would take a three-team deal for Stoudemire to be traded to the Heat.

Of course, Cleveland can also pursue three-team deals that would sweeten the offer for Phoenix.

Chris Broussard is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine.

---

Source

Honestly, I don't know why Philly is still even part of this scenario. The reason they would rent Amare is to dump salary, while still filling seats, but he said he may opt-in next season, leaving them with zero cap room in 2010, and Amare's $17 million dollar salary, defeating their purpose. If they trade Dalembert with Iguodala, they would have to take back Jason Richardson who has 1-2 years left on his contract, so, again, no cap room, further negating their purpose. Another difficulty is having Elton Brand at PF already. Miami has no one the Suns wants, and reports are saying Michael Beasley doesn't interest them. The Celtics have inquired, but they have nothing Phoenix wants, either, (again) according to reports.

So, it appears to me that it's the Suns who are enticing Philly, but it conflicts with Philly's goals. Amare saying he may opt in was to prevent him from being traded to non-contenders, or teams that don't interest him. He did the same thing last season with Golden State.

If Philly is uncertain about Amare opting in next season, and Phoenix isn't interested in anyone the Heat, or Celtics have, then it follows we are the only reasonable offer right now. Phoenix can either retain him, and let him walk in the offseason, which may be a huge mistake because they get nothing, or they could re-sign him, but that's no guarantee, either.

A team that may come out of left-field is New Orleans.

Part of the hold up is because Phoenix wants us to take Jason Richardson. It depends on who we give up.

Mo / D-west (he might be the one traded too)
J-Rich / AP
LeBron / Moon
Amare / Powe
Shaq / Andy

How do you stop that?

update from windy via twitter

- cavs and suns not "close" as mentioned before, he said both sides still unsure

- cavs have 4 trade options on the table

- cavs are big players for stoudemire because they can get phoenix under the cap and out of the luxury tax



so, 4 options? stoudemire, jamison, murphy, and who else? rip hamilton? david west? who could the other player be

That's a bummer, I'd assume the other guy would be Iggy

totally forgot about iggy, that's definitely the fourth player.

apparently they are ranking these options.

I think Rip Hamilton is only being explored in the event that we need to depart with a shooting guard to get something done. No way they just add Rip Hamilton without it being part of a bigger picture.

I like that the Cavs arent rushing into a deal, but I hope something happens to improve this team. At this point Murphy isnt even on my radar, the media made me think an Amare deal is almost a sue thing that anything sort of him will be a let down.

I don't really want Murphy unless it's just a Wally S&T deal...

Did anyone see Deron Williams just foul D-Wade because he thought they were losing when the score was tied?

J/C

That is exactly what this trade would set the Cavs up for! They are not going into this with the idea of Amare being a rental. There have already been extension discussions with his agent, sources are saying that including Hickson could hinge on him signing an extension (you do it either way though). Even if Amare doesn't sign an extension now the trade sets them up with options in the off-season: They would have his bird rights so they could offer more money in a new deal than any other team in the off-season, or if he did not want to stay in Cleveland at that point they still can offer more money than anyone else so it could set up a sign and trade for another of the many upcoming free agent all-stars in the off-season. Example: Say if Bosh wants out of Toronto they can offer him the max, we offer Amare the max and swap players. would make sense for Toronto (in this example) so they get something in value instead of losing a franchise player for nothing, and also makes sense to the players involved to get the largest contract they can, especially with the potential CBA changes coming up (at the end of the day it's always all about the money). If they do nothing they will have little room under they salary and will not be able to sign anyone of significance next year. This move would almost certainly guarantee Lebron will stay in Cleveland. You people crack me up who say don't make this deal because you were the same ones saying don't trade for Shaq last year because we had such great chemistry, why mess with it: Maybe because talent win's championships not chemistry. Lets just hope Kerr doesn't back out at the last second like he did last year. As Lebron recently reminded everyone: We were 2-0 against San Antonio the year they swept us in the finals. Finally: Really at this point who in Cleveland wouldn't settle for ONE championship anyway? Sure you want to win more than one but you need to learn to walk before you can run, ONE championship is much better than ZERO! Haven't we all suffered enough?

J/C:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/12929108/lebron-deserves-great-teammates-more-than-once-per-year

LeBron deserves great teammates more than once per year
Feb. 15, 2010
By Gregg Doyel
CBSSports.com National Columnist
Tell Gregg your opinion!

ARLINGTON, Texas -- Once a year we get to see it. But only once a year. It's not enough to sustain me, but it'll have to do, because this is all there is. It's the NBA All-Star Game, and this is what it looks like when LeBron James plays with great teammates.

This is what I want to see on a regular basis, only I can't, because James plays for the Cleveland Cavaliers -- and Cleveland has one of the worst supporting casts in the NBA. If you doubt the last dozen words of that sentence, see for yourself. It isn't hard. Mentally remove the best player from every team in the league, and then study what's left. On almost any roster you can name, players 2-12 will be better than players 2-12 on Cleveland's roster. That's a fact.

Cleveland has a 43-11 record, best in the NBA by two full games. That's also a fact. And it's a testament to the talent of James, the NBA's most complete player since Michael Jordan and, before him, Oscar Robertson.

That's another fact.

Once a year, in this showcase, we get to see what it would look like for James to play with another great player. He plays with a whole roster of great players, which skews things a little bit. On Sunday he had Dwyane Wade at the point and Joe Johnson on the wing and Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard in the paint. That's absurd, and it's never going to happen in Cleveland or any other NBA city. The salary cap won't allow it. But the salary cap would allow for James to play with another great player, as the salary cap has allowed in the past with Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal on the Lakers.

True, O'Neal is James' teammate in Cleveland -- but it's not the same O'Neal. The Shaq who played with Kobe was good for 28 points and 13 rebounds per game. This one is averaging 11.7 points and 6.8 rebounds. This is half-a-Shaq.

LeBron deserves better, but he has always deserved better, sort of like Michael Jordan deserved better than the garbage roster he was thrust onto when the Bulls drafted him in 1984. Eventually Jordan got Scottie Pippen, and you know the rest.

LeBron wants more than what he has in Cleveland. He practically said so after the game Sunday night.

"You want to play with guys that are great and want to win and want to compete at a high level every night," he said. "We'll see."

On Sunday, we saw. I asked Wade what it's like to play with LeBron once a year, and Wade started smiling. Maybe he was thinking of that alley-oop he threw to James, a lob that James caught in mid-spin, finishing the play with a reverse dunk. Moments later, James did the throwing and Wade did the dunking. No spin. All power.

"Yeah, you see the connection we both have," he said, nodding. "Especially going to the basket, lobs, finding each other. I get the opportunity to be his teammate for one day, and I'm going to enjoy it. He makes the game easy for all his teammates. You see that in Cleveland."

No question about that. As I've noted, Cleveland has the best record in the NBA. Lots of you will tell me the Cavaliers' record proves that they have more talent than I'm giving them credit for -- that there's no way the worst supporting cast in the NBA could produce the best record in the NBA. If that's your position, there are two problems with that:

One, LeBron is that good. The last player to average 30 points, eight assists and seven rebounds for an entire season was Jordan in 1989. Before that, it was Oscar Robertson in 1966. James is on the verge of doing it this season, averaging 29.9 ppg, 8.3 assists and 7.1 rebounds.

Two, LeBron's supporting cast is that bad. This weekend in Dallas, there were 28 All-Stars. There were another 18 future stars in the NBA Rookie-Sophomore Challenge. There were six players in the 3-Point Shootout, five in the Slam Dunk Contest and four in the Skills test. That's a total of 61 players. Guess how many of them came from Cleveland? Other than LeBron, I mean.

Zero.

I win.

So does LeBron James, 43 times in 54 games so far. And so did the East on Sunday night, beating the West 141-139 thanks to Wade and James, who combined for 53 points, 17 assists, 11 rebounds and nine steals. Wade was named MVP -- he had 28 points and 11 assists -- but he understands why.

"He was one of the reasons why I sit up here with the MVP award," Wade said of James, "finding me, getting my rhythm. And I got a lot of assists from him. It's great playing with LB, man, and it always will be."

You know, of course, that the two of them could play again. Permanently. And I don't mean the 2012 Summer Olympics, though in 2012 they are sure to reprise their roles of Batman and Robin -- or Batman and Batman -- during the United States' gold-medal run of 2008. I'm talking about the 2010-11 season, when one or both of them could be playing for a new team. For years, as the potential disaster of losing LeBron has loomed for the Cavaliers, I've fought for Cleveland, and for Ohio. We can't lose LeBron. He's ours. That's been my position.

Now, my position is this: I want to see LeBron play with a great teammate (and sorry, Mo Williams, but neither you nor half-a-Shaq count). I want to see that because I want LeBron to fulfill his destiny as the greatest player in NBA history, and he can only do that with championship rings, and he can only do that with better talent around him. Maybe he and Wade can go somewhere together, swallow some pride and save their next team some money and play together knowing damn well that a series of NBA rings would lead to more millions in endorsements and other opportunities than whatever they'd lose in salary.

Maybe it's not LeBron and Wade. There are plenty of other great players who will become free agents this offseason, including Chris Bosh, whom LeBron found with a bounce pass through traffic. If LeBron makes that pass in Cleveland, it hits one of Zydrunas Ilgauskas' wooden legs and bounces out of bounds. Bosh? He caught it and stuffed it.

Amar'e Stoudemire could be headed to Cleveland as soon as this week. That's the rumor, though James noted that "it's all speculation. ... Other than that, everything else is just talk."

Hey, it's the kind of talk I want to hear. And it's the kind of vision I want to see: LeBron James, who sees the court like a taller Steve Nash, playing with a great teammate every night. If James averages 8.3 assists with his current crop of teammates, he'd be in the 10-plus range with a stud like Stoudemire. Or with Wade or Bosh.

I know, I know. It's a fantasy. But guess what? I'm not the only one having it.

"Yeah, we can dream, can't we?" Wade said about playing permanently with James. "I dream."

For more from Gregg Doyel, check him out on Twitter: @greggdoyelcbs

i hate the entire "lebron is that good" argument for why the cavs are 43-11

why weren't the cavs always this good then, why did it take years of building the right team, and making huge moves to get to this point? before last year we topped off at 50 wins.

if anyone's supporting cast should be ripped, how about dwyane wade? miami sold out for one championship and now look like an absolute joke. wade gets doubled and tripled every single trip down the floor, where's all that talk?

Quote:

---

Suns Close To Decision, Cavs Still Lead Race For Amare
More Suns News
Feb 15, 2010 6:18 AM EST

The Suns are close to deciding Amare Stoudemire's fate and the Cavaliers are still the frontrunners to land the All-Star forward, according to Yahoo! Sports.

Sources believe that Phoenix has decided to trade Stoudemire and that they are searching for the best deal.

The Arizona Republic reported on Sunday night that despite all the trade rumors, the Suns and Stoudemire's camp exchanged extension proposals on Friday in Dallas.

Phoenix and Cleveland have had serious talks regarding a deal that would send Zydrunas Ilgauskas and J.J. Hickson to Arizona in exchange for Stoudemire, but the deal is far from official.

The 76ers and Heat are in the mix as well, but Cleveland has proposed a better package.

---

web page

Quote:

---

Murphy Is Cleveland's Plan B
Feb 15, 2010 7:39 AM EST

If the Cavaliers aren't able to work out a deal with the Suns for Amare Stoudemire, they'll focus their attention on Indiana's Troy Murphy.

According to the Los Angeles Times, the Cavaliers and Pacers have agreed on a deal should Cleveland's pursuit of Stoudemire come up empty.

Cleveland would ship Zydrunas Ilgauskas and J.J. Hickson to Indiana for the power forward.

The Pacers may then waive Ilgauskas.

---

web page

HATE the deal for Troy Murphy, I hope its not true.

Man.....I really want a ring but I really want Big Z to be a part of it. He is such a class act and I really want him to get one. He is also a guy that was often injured early in his carrear and could have took the money and ran but stuck it out and got back on the court to help this team.

I know the team needs to do what they need to do but I feel bad for Big Z.

Also the deal for Troy Murphy should be a lot less than the deal for Amare. It should be JJ OR Big Z for Troy not both.

no way do i swap hickson for murphy with z thrown in. no way.

I agree with you Free... I'd love nothing more than a Cavs championship this year but to win it without Z would leave just a little hollow spot in it. The guy has poured it out for years, some pretty lean years, with this team.

And I still think he is highly undervalued.. look at the +/- numbers with Z on the court compared to with Shaq on the court.. it's not even close.

aside from all the sentimental stuff, z is also a great offensive rebounder, great mid range shooter, can spot up and hit 3's (stretch 5?) and is a leader on the team.

I think that stretch is a big part of it. With Shaq on the court, the other teams center never has to leave the paint, which makes driving that much more difficult and it makes drive and dish that much more difficult. If Z goes out to 18 feet, the defender has to respect that and at least cheat out, thus opening up the lane.. plus Z is a legit option to dish to at 18 feet... I know the guy has his limitations and isn't intimidating on defense and isn't real athletic, but I just like the guy and is the one guy I would want to share in getting the ring.

Not to mention in the cavs last game against Orlando Shaq had 3 fouls in the first 3 min of the game and had to sit for a long time. Well no problem, Big Z can come of the bench and eat up minuets. On most teams in the league Z is a starter.

The trade deadline is thursday at 3 right?

This proposed trade with the Suns....would they be buying out Z so he can come back with us?