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Or should I say, blowin' a little smoke . . . http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/02/cleveland_browns_president_mik_1.htmlCleveland Browns President Mike Holmgren says it's a mistake for QBs not to throw at NFL combine By Tony Grossi February 24, 2010, 11:43AM INDIANAPOLIS -- There's no doubt that Browns President Mike Holmgren wants to take a close look at the quarterbacks at the NFL scouting combine. Evaluating passers is his specialty and he is making it his personal mission to upgrade the Browns' situation at quarterback. But few of the top-rated passers in the 2010 draft will throw when the quarterbacks go on display Sunday in Lucas Oil Stadium, and that has Holmgren miffed. Sam Bradford of Oklahoma and Jimmy Clausen of Notre Dame -- the only two quarterbacks expected to go in the first round -- opted not to throw until their respective pro days in March. Bradford had shoulder surgery in October and Clausen had toe surgery in January. Also, Florida's Tim Tebow and Central Michigan's Dan LeFevour will wait for their pro days. Texas' Colt McCoy (No. 3) and Cincinnati' Tony Pike (No. 5) are the highest-rated quarterbacks among about 19 intending to throw. "I don't get it (not throwing). Someone has sold a bill of goods to some of these kids," Holmgren said. "One thing I always told the quarterback was to throw at the combine. Participate. I always thought, at that position, it was a mistake (not to throw). We know you're going with receivers you don't know. Very rarely do you get dinged (downgraded) on a combine thing. But it can help you." Healthy quarterbacks who don't throw at the combine are advised to wait for their pro day when they can look better throwing to familiar receivers in familiar surroundings. Those workouts are choreographed by throwing coaches hired by agents. "You can make the point at their workout day that it's so controlled, routes are set up and the young man can look pretty good, but give me some credit for looking at a guy at the combine and understanding it's difficult for him," Holmgren said. "Boy, I used to like to watch them in person. See them throw, get close to them. That's all good stuff. It's not quite that way anymore."
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Bradford has an excuse - he's coming off shoulder surgery
Clausen has an excuse - he's coming off toe surgery
Tebow has an excuse - he's learning an entirely new delivery
So... of the Top 5 QBs, they are either throwing or have an excuse not to. I don't see the big problem...
We're... we're good?
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Um, isn't throwing pretty much what a QB does? Why, if you are healthy, would you choose not to do what you're trying to sell yourself on?
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Quote:
Bradford has an excuse - he's coming off shoulder surgery
Clausen has an excuse - he's coming off toe surgery
Tebow has an excuse - he's learning an entirely new delivery
Bradford is going to throw in a few weeks,, same with Clausen.. on thier pro days.. Holmgren is saying that we all know the issues, throw the ball,, we understand that you may be dinged up, we understand that you may be in unfamiliar places throwing to Receivers you never met before.. he's saying that they take all of that into consideration..
Still, if they aren't physically cleared to throw, they I give them a pass..
As for Tebow,, yeah I know he's not throwing because he's changing his motion..
This is the PERFECT time to show them what you are today.. then in a few weeks in your pro day, you can show them how much you have adapted to the new style... this is the PERFECT situaition for Tebow... he should throw..
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so the real question is...
who is not throwing that should be throwing? that might be a hint into what MH is looking for out of a QB
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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Quote:
maybe Dan LeFevour?
You beat me to it.. some on here are pimping the guy.... I gotta go check him out...
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Bradford has an excuse - he's coming off shoulder surgery
Clausen has an excuse - he's coming off toe surgery
Tebow has an excuse - he's learning an entirely new delivery
So... of the Top 5 QBs, they are either throwing or have an excuse not to. I don't see the big problem...
No,there's no excuse for Elbow..could care less about his new motion..he isn't injured..well maybe all those who pant and drool over him might get their feelings hurt.. 
I'm not sure who else MH is talking about,,
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Quote:
Quote:
maybe Dan LeFevour?
You beat me to it.. some on here are pimping the guy.... I gotta go check him out...
here are his stats:
Statistics
[edit] Passing
Year Games Completions Attempts Comp % Yards TDs Interception QB Rating
2006 14 247 388 63.7 3,031 26 10 146.2
2007 14 355 543 65.4 3,652 27 13 133.5
2008 11 251 376 66.8 2,784 29 6 144.2
2009 14 318 456 69.7 3,438 28 7 150.3
Career 53 1,171 1,763 66.4% 12,905 102 36 142.9
[edit] Rushing
Year Games Rushes Yards Average Touchdowns
2006 14 123 521 4.0 7
2007 14 188 1,122 6.0 19
2008 11 168 592 3.5 6
2009 14 183 713 3.9 15
Career 53 671 2,948 4.4 47
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_LeFevour
School Central Michigan
Height 6 ' 3.0 "
Weight 229 lbs.
Speed 4.75 ( Unofficial )
Graduation Year 2010
Birth Date 3/19/1987
Jersey # 13
Current Position QB
Projected Position QB
CDS Projected 2010 NFL Draft Round 3
http://cdsdraft.com/profile.php?id=1780
what I get from this is mobile and accurate as heck.
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those are some good numbers,, Don't know much about central Michigan,, doesn't appear that they play any top schools.. although that shouldn't matter if the guy has the tools...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
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Besides Bradford and Clausen.. If Im a QB.. I throw!! It can only help IMO.
If you can't handle the combine.. how can you handle a 350 lbs. NT coming at you trying to rip your head off, ie Shaun Rogers?
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I"m not an expert by any means- I just watched some vid's on him and the one thing that stood out more than anything to me was that he was throwing to where the reciever was going not where he was. Pass after pass he hit them in stride... pretty impressive if you ask me. check this out http://www.youtube.com/v/8GXlsr8Iptk
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Quote:
Don't know much about central Michigan,, doesn't appear that they play any top schools.. although that shouldn't matter if the guy has the tools...
Exactly. There are plenty of MAC QBs to have success in the NFL.
If we drafted LeFevour in the 3rd, I wouldn't have a problem w/ it.
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Might as well.. I mean he has to be better than Charlie Frye.. lol.
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I just finished watching a few vids on him also.. Nice accuracy,, mobile, not that i'm an expert by any means, but it sure seemed like a quick release.. (have to admit, it's hard to be sure)
I mean, everyone around him is moving at a certain pace,, and he seems faster than those he's playing against,, it could mean that he's got a quick release or it could mean that he's slow and those chasing him are just slower,,LOL I honesty dunno...
I liked what I saw but by no means have I seen enough..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
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Quote:
Tebow has an excuse - he's learning an entirely new delivery
I don't think that's a viable excuse. It sure isn't a reason.
Bradford is going to have to work on his footwork in the pro's. If he were healthy and said he wouldn't throw at the combine because he's learning new footwork, that also would not be a viable reason or excuse.
This is going to sound like Tebow-bashing, and to some extent it is, but his release is NOT the only reason he's under scrutiny as an NFL prospect. His accuracy on NFL-throws has been very-much in question regardless of whether or not his ball goes below his hip. The windows he threw into in college were HUGE compared to what he'll see in the NFL. That's one of the reasons Quinn has struggled, and it's one people at the combine NEED to see.
Holmgren's point is ABSOLUTELY valid. If you're not injured, you need to be at the combine throwing.
I don't know if Bradford or Clausen are healthy enough to throw. If they are, they should be criticized as well. Tebow has no injury and deserves the criticism.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Re: Clausen and Bradford
I can totally understand why they wouldn't want to participate. Recovering from an injury is a good reason to sit out. I agree with Toad that limited participation would be nice, but I wouldn't expect that.
I think Holmgren is just miffed that he doesn't get to scope out QBs. His MO is to bring someone in, and this year it's harder for him to do that with the top prospects sitting out. He says that evaluators will take injuries into account, but I disagree. If you have to take into account a busted shoulder when evaluating someone throwing, what's the point? Same thing with footwork and a busted toe. No information is better than mis-information, in my book.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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those are some good numbers,, Don't know much about central Michigan,, doesn't appear that they play any top schools.. although that shouldn't matter if the guy has the tools...
Just some #s against the BCS schools (sorry if I missed any). All games but 1 were away, and that 1 was a bowl game. Not spectacular numbers overall, but not too bad for all being at opponents places, and most being early in the season. If I recall correctly, he was the 2nd player ever (a week or 2 after Tebow) to pass for 3000 yards and rush for 1000 in a season and I think he leads all players in the history of the game for total TDs (sorry if my recollection is bad, the college season ended a few months ago).
Good prospect, improved each year. I've heard 3 comparisons over the last 6 months or so - a right handed version of Brunnell (not bad), Charlie Frye (not good) and Tim Tebow (tbd).
2009 @ Arizona (game 1) 18 of 31 (58.1%) for 108 yds, 0 td, 1int - 9 rush 18 yards 1 td
2009 @ Michigan State (game 2) 33 of 46 (71.7%) for 328 yds, 3 td, 1 int - 13 rush 10 yds 0td
2008 @ Georgia (game 2) 23 of 43 (53.5%) for 250 yds, 2 TD, 1 int - 4 rush 19 yd
2008 @ Purdue (game 4) 25 of 44 (56.8%) for 291 yds, 2 TD, 2 int - 24 rush, 112 yd, 1 td
2007 @ Kansas (game 1) 19 of 37 (51.4%) for 172 yds, 1 td, 0 int - 9 rush, 26 yd
2007 @ Purdue (game 3) 35 of 56 (62.5%) for 364 yds, 2 TD, 1 int - 10 rush, 26 yds
2007 @ Clemson (game 8) 20 of 34 (58.8%) for 204 yds, 2 TD, 1 int - 5 rush, 31 yards
2007 vs Purdue (bowl game) 17 of 34 (50%) for 292 yds, 4 TD, 0 int - 33 rush, 114 yds, 2 TD
2006 @ Kentucky (his very 1st game, season's 4th game) 22 of 38 (57.9%) for 360 yds, 4 TD, 0 int - 13 ruch, 47 yards
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If Bradford is cleared and he falls to #7 I think he will be the pick. I'd rather have Haden or Berry (if he falls) but the Browns have genuine interest (not a smokescreen) in Bradford and have done some serious due diligence on him. Holmgren & crew have had extensive talks with Stoops about him.
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Isn't the Dr who worked on Bradford associated with the Redskins? I think I heard that he is. If they pass on him ... maybe we should twice about taking him. That guy would probably know more about Bradford's shoulder than anyone.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
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Isn't the Dr who worked on Bradford associated with the Redskins? I think I heard that he is. If they pass on him ... maybe we should twice about taking him. That guy would probably know more about Bradford's shoulder than anyone.
Dr. James Andrews is indeed a consultant for the Redskins.
However, it is also possible that the Redskins pass on Bradford for reasons other than his shoulder.
Adding link: http://www.andrewscenters.com/getpage.php?name=andrews
Last edited by no_logo_required; 02/24/10 05:17 PM.
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Its Dr. James Andrews - the same name you hear with most of the NFL surgeries - including Brees.
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Quote:
Isn't the Dr who worked on Bradford associated with the Redskins? I think I heard that he is. If they pass on him ... maybe we should twice about taking him. That guy would probably know more about Bradford's shoulder than anyone.
That would probably be putting too much importance on one assumption. There are a myriad of reasons why they'd not take a QB, regardless of whether or not Bradford is healthy.
Besides, James Andrews does work for the 'Skins, but his reports are available to all 32-teams in the NFL. He isn't a private doc for that organization.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Quote:
Isn't the Dr who worked on Bradford associated with the Redskins? I think I heard that he is. If they pass on him ... maybe we should twice about taking him. That guy would probably know more about Bradford's shoulder than anyone.
That would probably be putting too much importance on one assumption. There are a myriad of reasons why they'd not take a QB, regardless of whether or not Bradford is healthy.
Besides, James Andrews does work for the 'Skins, but his reports are available to all 32-teams in the NFL. He isn't a private doc for that organization.
That guy is a private doc for every friggin' professional athlete out there, it seems.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Would love to get a peek at his bank accounts.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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j/c
i think the biggest thing that bothers me about drafting qbs in general is the fallicy that there is definitely a franchise qb in each draft. heck, look at the 07 draft. any of those qbs remotely close to a qb worth having? and to use your argument, toad, any pick wasted on any of those 07 qb prospects is a wasted pick (1st over, 21st overall, 2nd round, 3rd round) pick that could've been someone else.
the more i think about it, the more surprised i think i'd be if we picked a qb in the 1st round, maybe even the first two rounds. looking at holmgren's history, all his qbs came from the 2nd day (from very recent article that escapes me right now).
that said, maybe all that changes when we get to see bradford throw. i don't know.
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Favre was traded to the Packers for a the 19th pick in the 1st round (he was drafted in the 2nd round).
Holmgren swapped 1st rounders (had pick 10, got pick 17 in return) with the Packers to get Hasselbeck, who was originally drafted in the 6th round.
Holmgren has never drafted his starting QB (unless you count Seneca Wallace).
I do agree with you though. There doesn't have to be a franchise QB in the draft. As you pointed out the 2007 draft didn't have one and neither did the 2000 or 2002 drafts.
I think this draft have QB's that can develop into a franchise QB, but in my opinion those QB's aren't worth taking in the top 15. I don't think there are any QB's in this draft that can step in Day 1 and you can say, "He's definitely our franchise guy." like a Manning, Ryan, Stafford, or JaMarcus Russell.
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I have made my feelings on Bradford clear, so I disagree.
But I agree with the premise that not every draft has that franchise guy. The '07 draft certainly doesn't appear to have one.
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Quote:
Would love to get a peek at his bank accounts.
Eh, it's just a bunch of zeros ........ 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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yea, i did leave out favre. it was a slightly different scenario imo but i also left out hasselbeck, who was picked in the 6th round the last year holmgren was with the packers and then brought him to seattle.
that said, you got my overall point though.
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Just clicking
Not sure what made me do it, but I decided to check out Colt McCoy,
I checked out some videos on youtube and frankly, I get the feeling that he's an impressive young man. On the field at least. Haven't looked at any of his off field stuff at all.
Seemed to play alot out of the shotgun, can run, mobile, seems like a quick release.. appears competitive as heck..
Why so little discussion of him? What did I miss.. (keep in mind, I didn't look at a lot of stuff and I'm not a Guru either)
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well you're not alone. i think he was considered a top prospect before the season started. at this point, i thought things could be good because he last said he'd be throwing at the combine. i believe the knock on him is his lack of arm strength as well as termpering his production with the system he came from. i was eager to hear how he does at the combine with the idea that maybe we grab him towards the end of the first day. to throw a wrench in that, though: Quote:
Texas QB Colt McCoy says his shoulder is structurally sound, despite revealing Wednesday that he won't throw at the Combine.
He won't throw for NFL evaluators until March 31. ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports that McCoy's right arm is structurally sound, but he is over six weeks removed from the "burner" injury. McCoy should definitely be 100 percent by now.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=5699
that's a concern.
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Quote:
i think the biggest thing that bothers me about drafting qbs in general is the fallicy that there is definitely a franchise qb in each draft.
Some may think that, but you're right in that it sure as Hell isn't true. When Quinn came out, he was still the highest rated QB available but I didn't think he had a 1st round grade.
I think Bradford is a good bet to be a "franchise" guy, while Clausen is more in the Quinn mold, where his chances of success are a little less.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Hold on Thar, little Toadster Did you or did you not? say that Clausen was a little better than Bradford, but due to "headcase" concerns you would rather take Bradford? Please enlighten me 
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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Didn't think I needed to start a new thread on this,, but I bet someone does..LOL Quote:
NFL Combine provides the next step to remaking the Cleveland Browns for Mike Holmgren's revamped front office
By Tony Grossi
February 24, 2010, 6:46PM
David I. Andersen / The Plain Dealer“Any trade information will be funneled through Tom (Heckert) and me,” Browns President Mike Holmgren asserted in preparation for this week's NFL Combine in Indianapolis. “Everyone’s [here], so you get a chance to bump into people and talk. We’ve already made phone calls, laid groundwork, opened the door, at the very least to have a conversation about any number of things."
• Browns reach settlement with dismissed GM George KokinisINDIANAPOLIS -- The NFL scouting combine marks the coming-out party of the new Browns' management team.
President Mike Holmgren, General Manager Tom Heckert and their new staffs of aides and personnel experts arrived on Wednesday for the seven-day football convention that is the modern combine.
Also on hand, of course, are coach Eric Mangini and his staff for their second combine as Browns coaches. But this will be a whole new ballgame for them and the Browns.
A year ago, Mangini and then-rookie GM George Kokinis were the Browns' decision-makers. Now Holmgren and Heckert are in charge and making their own observations on the 330 invited players in attendance. They will also be the ones planting the seeds of potential trades and deals with the hundreds of NFL and team executives and player agents prowling the corridors of Lucas Oil Stadium and the bulging city hotels.
Gus Chan / The Plain DealerBrowns GM Tom Heckert (right, with coach Eric Mangini and President Mike Holmgren) said the Combine is only a part of the remaking of the Browns' roster, coupled with free agent decisions. “We hope to get some things done in free agency and then do the rest in the draft," Heckert said. "But that’s a big ‘if’ — especially with free agency.”While scouting, interviewing and examining the players are the main purpose for the combine, the rapid-fire NFL calendar requires teams to juggle draft preparations with pressing roster decisions.
March 5 begins the NFL free agent signing period and trading period. Holmgren and Heckert have yet to make conclusions on which of their 13 free agents (seven are restricted) to try to keep. They will not announce which restricted free agents will be tendered -- and for what draft-choice compensation -- until March 4, Holmgren said.
Foremost in the minds of Holmgren and Heckert are the obvious questions about the quarterback position. Do Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn stay or go? Do the Browns trade for a new starter or seek one in free agency? Do they draft one and how high?
"It's part of the whole process," Holmgren said. "There are four things we're looking at. First we have to get a good handle on who our quarterbacks are in the building. Then I've got to look at the free agent list, who's out there in case you want to make a change. Then you have to look at the draft and who might be available if you're willing to pop early. That's a question. And fourth, are there any trade possibilities?
"So it's a little early [to draw conclusions]. I'm getting all the information I have to have to hopefully make an intelligent decision, not the least of which is knowing our guys better. I'm still learning about them, believe it or not. I've looked at all the film, but I haven't talked to the guys much, which I want to do."
Last year, Mangini was in position to take USC quarterback Mark Sanchez, but he didn't know enough about Anderson and Quinn to pull the plug on them. Instead, Mangini plied his Jets connection to pull off the first of three draft-day trades. The seeds were planted here.
"Any trade information will be funneled through Tom and me," Holmgren asserted. "Everyone's [here], so you get a chance to bump into people and talk. We've already made phone calls, laid groundwork, opened the door, at the very least to have a conversation about any number of things. I think that's where you start.
"I think everybody's thinking the same way. It probably accelerates when you bump into them at the combine. And then, prior to the time free agency starts [it heats up again]."
Heckert said the team's draft strategy is dictated by needs filled in free agency and trades, which start eight weeks before the draft on April 22-24.
"We know what we'd like to have happen, obviously not specific player-by-player," Heckert said. "We hope to get some things done in free agency and then do the rest in the draft. But that's a big 'if' -- especially with free agency."
So first things first, and that means this week inspecting the college players. Holmgren rued the decision of several higher-rated quarterbacks to not throw at the combine. He also doesn't like the new format of interviewing players.
Teams used to send gophers out to the headquarters hotel lobby to grab selected players to interview. Now the process has restrictions. Teams are limited to 60 player interviews of 10-minute duration.
"You're in there from 4 in the afternoon till 11 at night," Holmgren said. Buzzers go off [when time is up]. I can't handle it."
Heckert and Mangini will sit together in all of the team's 60 interviews. Holmgren said he will "cherry pick a little and focus in on the guys I want to focus on." He has a select list of players he wants to observe closely and personally interview.
"As far as Tom and me are concerned, he's going to look through his eyes, I'm going to look through my eyes, and then when we come back that's when we hash it out and come up with a consensus," Holmgren said.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/02/nfl_combine_provides_the_next.html
What do you all think of this.. They have an idea of what they want to happen,,, holy cow, a plan...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Hold on Thar, little Toadster
Did you or did you not? say that Clausen was a little better than Bradford, but due to "headcase" concerns you would rather take Bradford? Please enlighten me
Not sure what you're remembering, but I've always liked Bradford over Clausen.
What I have said is that I like Clausen's tools more than Quinn's but because of his attitude I wouldn't take him at all.
I have also said that Clausen is a safer physical bet because he doesn't have the medical question, and I have said he's operated more out of a pro-style offense so he's a little easier to project to the next level.
Still, despite the shoulder, despite the lack of number of games played, despite what is likely a stronger arm for Clausen, and despite the spread offense versus more of a pro-style offense, Bradford has been and will continue to be my pick.
Clausen has all the tools, but what's between his ears is what worries me.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Daman, don't this as an insult, but I think you need to look more at arm strength. McCoy's ball really hangs in the air. In college, there are big enough openings for that to work. In the NFL, the gaps get that much smaller.
Also, Colt McCoy was only considered a top prospect by the non NFL Draft specializing publications, like CBS Sports and others of a similar nature.
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Deep, I dunno if it was in one of the numerous PM's we've swapped, but I've felt that McCoy's arm would get exposed at the combine. Now that he won't throw, he's going to get a freebie by throwing here in Austin.
You've probably watched some games on tape. I've seen numerous ones live. He has benefited greatly by having Shipley and in an offense tailored to take advantage of his short accuracy and smarts. As you noted, he won't have those kinds of windows in the NFL, and he's going to struggle getting the ball downfield on windy, bad-weathered days. I'm also firm in my belief that he's not going to measure up (pun intended ) in terms of size. Even if he comes in at a "solid" 6'2 and 210, that's pretty slight for an NFL QB.
He may go in the late 2nd, but the 3rd is more likely. If it were me, I wouldn't bite unless he's there in the 4th or even later.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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Daman, don't this as an insult, but I think you need to look more at arm strength.
I understand you aren't insulting me., it's cool, I don't know enough to argue about QB's,, that's why I was asking the questions.. thanks
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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