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and wasn't it soon after that they let manny go when the indians refused to ante up and top boston's offer?
and wasn't it Boston regretting the contract and offering Ramirez up on waivers to any team in the ENTIRE MLB that was willing to take on his contract and came up empty?
while it did not end happy, don't even try and tell me they regret that. manny was a huge part of ending an 86 year drought.
i'll take that any day.
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the indians will absolutely never bring in a guy like pudge rodriguez, when these young players are ready to compete, it ain't gonna happen.
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you keep talking about the payroll, but where were these supposed moves you talk about, to go along with our young guys coming up. you keep talking about bringing in young guys, and then when you're ready, you use the money you didn't on guys like lee and cc and victor, to bring in the players
where were those moves? delluci? trot nixon? kerry wood?
Like I mentioned ... WHO would you have brought in?? There wasn't really anyone available. About the only guy you could maybe argue would be F-Rod instead of Kerry Wood. Still, it wasn't like we took a huge discount to bring in Wood.
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and wasn't it soon after that they let manny go when the indians refused to ante up and top boston's offer?
and wasn't it Boston regretting the contract and offering Ramirez up on waivers to any team in the ENTIRE MLB that was willing to take on his contract and came up empty?
while it did not end happy, don't even try and tell me they regret that. manny was a huge part of ending an 86 year drought.
i'll take that any day.
what don't you understand though? it did not start happy. he was holding down the type of moves the big market Boston Red Sox (#2 payroll) could make and they felt so strongly about getting rid of that contract, they tried to GIVE HIM AWAY.
what do you think happens if the Indians were on the hook for the $160mil? do you really think that we can compete with him taking up 1/4 of our payroll? we would have been handcuffed for years and we would not have had 4 90+ win seasons this decade IMO.
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the indians will absolutely never bring in a guy like pudge rodriguez, when these young players are ready to compete, it ain't gonna happen.
Lofton did much for us what Pudge did for that '97 team.
he brought leadership, experience and he played extremely well for us. and he cost us $$$ + Max Ramirez.
no, his overall talent is not on level of Pudge, but in terms of what he did for us that year, it was pretty equivalent.
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and wasn't it soon after that they let manny go when the indians refused to ante up and top boston's offer?
and wasn't it Boston regretting the contract and offering Ramirez up on waivers to any team in the ENTIRE MLB that was willing to take on his contract and came up empty?
while it did not end happy, don't even try and tell me they regret that. manny was a huge part of ending an 86 year drought.
i'll take that any day.
what don't you understand though? it did not start happy. he was holding down the type of moves the big market Boston Red Sox (#2 payroll) could make and they felt so strongly about getting rid of that contract, they tried to GIVE HIM AWAY.
what do you think happens if the Indians were on the hook for the $160mil? do you really think that we can compete with him taking up 1/4 of our payroll? we would have been handcuffed for years and we would not have had 4 90+ win seasons this decade IMO.
absolutely. the guy was a problem. but he delivered. it's also different situations. he openly said he was never happy in boston, did not like the city.
problem is, they won 2 world championships with him, and actually got JASON FREAKING BAY out of the deal.
they won.
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you keep talking about the payroll, but where were these supposed moves you talk about, to go along with our young guys coming up. you keep talking about bringing in young guys, and then when you're ready, you use the money you didn't on guys like lee and cc and victor, to bring in the players
where were those moves? delluci? trot nixon? kerry wood?
Like I mentioned ... WHO would you have brought in?? There wasn't really anyone available. About the only guy you could maybe argue would be F-Rod instead of Kerry Wood. Still, it wasn't like we took a huge discount to bring in Wood.
who would i have brought in? i have no idea, i don't run the team, and don't really care about the rest of the league.
but don't tell me there wasn't a move out there to be made.
you keep saying don't spend the money on keeping your guys and instead use it to add when the team is back ready, but then you also seem to point out there are no moves to be made. so basically you're saying sell of your players and bring in young guys and just pocket the cash for no reason other than your own expense.
i'd rather keep my own guys and go from there. it's a better product on the field.
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the indians will absolutely never bring in a guy like pudge rodriguez, when these young players are ready to compete, it ain't gonna happen.
Oh give me a break ... you are just saying something for the sake of saying it now.
1) When has Dolan ever had the assurance that if he DID spend $20M on a guy, that the fans would come in droves to actually back-up that expenditure?
2) And most importantly ... give me one example where there was THAT guy available like Pudge, we were competitive, and Dolan still said no.
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the indians will absolutely never bring in a guy like pudge rodriguez, when these young players are ready to compete, it ain't gonna happen.
Lofton did much for us what Pudge did for that '97 team.
he brought leadership, experience and he played extremely well for us. and he cost us $$$ + Max Ramirez.
no, his overall talent is not on level of Pudge, but in terms of what he did for us that year, it was pretty equivalent.
i disagree. pudge played in more games, was a better defensive presence, and obviously being a catcher, had a bigger impact on the game, considering florida had great pitching that year, he deserves some of that credit.
i believe he was also paid much more too.
they don't win the series without pudge. and this is coming from someone that has always hated that guy.
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the indians will absolutely never bring in a guy like pudge rodriguez, when these young players are ready to compete, it ain't gonna happen.
Oh give me a break ... you are just saying something for the sake of saying it now.
1) When has Dolan ever had the assurance that if he DID spend $20M on a guy, that the fans would come in droves to actually back-up that expenditure?
2) And most importantly ... give me one example where there was THAT guy available like Pudge, we were competitive, and Dolan still said no.
prove me wrong. when have we brought in that guy. from 2005-2009 when our "young guys were ready" we brought in kenny lofton, that's it. that's all we did. all this money you talk about saving by not spending on cliff lee, and cc sabathia, where does it get put to use? i don't see it.
and how am i supposed to know who's available and who isn't?
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[quote1) When has Dolan ever had the assurance that if he DID spend $20M on a guy, that the fans would come in droves to actually back-up that expenditure?
when has an indians fan ever had assurance that if they show up, the team is going to make proper moves to be competitve?
i hate arguing this. it's going back and forth.
again, i am not blaming this all on larry dolan, i know the obvious problem, baseball sucks and is a poor product. but anyone who thinks larry dolan has every right to throw up his hands and cry bloody murder is a sucker.
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who would i have brought in? i have no idea, i don't run the team, and don't really care about the rest of the league.
Exactly ... a cop-out answer ... because there is no answer. There's hasn't been one example of Dolan turning down a sure-fire one-buy fix like Pudge, because he's never had that opportunity like the Marlins did.
Dolan can't just spend $20 million dollars on some random guy, sprinkle pixie dust on him, and watch him become A-Rod. If you have the misfortune of a bad free agency year or two ... then that's what happens. Would you have been happier if Dolan just paid Trot Nixon $20 million? Because he was pretty much the best available guy in 2007.
In fact, Dolan DID spend $15 million on Kerry Wood ... which pretty much disproves your point. He will spend to try and make the team better. But I guess because he didn't spend $22 million to get F-Rod, he's a cheapskate?
LOOK ... my point is Dolan is NO different than any other mid-market owner. Jacobs had a lot of losing seasons and fire-sale trades too. But everyone treats him like a saint because he had the extreme good fortune of getting a shiny new stadium, watching the Browns leave, and becoming the #1 show in town ... just as a newer crop of young players were coming up. Jacobs spent the money, because he COULD. Just like the Marlins had the good fortune of having Pudge available right at the same time their crop of youngsters were maturing, and they had spent 3 years having the lowest salaries in baseball.
A big part of beng a "good" owner is LUCK.
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kerry wood is damaged goods. i hated that move from day one. the guy is a complete bum. good guy, but never really panned out from that day he struck out 23.
cop out? hardly. i honestly don't follow the rest of the league, therefore, don't know who's made available. but if moves like david dellucci and trot nixon are your moves, then sign me up for just keeping your own star players and going from there.
and also, i never said dick jacobs was the greatest owner in the world, in fact i haven't said much. other than results were results. times are different, we all understand.
all i am saying is that since this current ownership has taken over, we're now rebuilding again.
we have nothing in hand. we got really lucky with cliff lee and cc sabathia, we caught lightning in a bottle. there is absolutely no guarantee we keep getting guys like that. you have to try and keep those types of players around because those types of players win you championships. everyone assumes this next batch is gonna be so good. but take a look around the league at some of these other teams that pull this crap and look what they don't have. they don't have cy young award winners or great hitters like victor.
those are franchise changing players.
i fear we're going more towards being the oakland a's and pittsburgh pirates than we are with how tampa is handling things and how the marlins did that one time.
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i disagree. pudge played in more games, was a better defensive presence, and obviously being a catcher, had a bigger impact on the game, considering florida had great pitching that year, he deserves some of that credit.
i believe he was also paid much more too.
they don't win the series without pudge. and this is coming from someone that has always hated that guy.
# of games? we brought Lofton in mid-season because we realized we were a contender. that should be a wash.
$$$ - Pudge = $10mil in 2003. Lofton had a $6mil salary in 2007. So, yes he was a bit more $$, but you were referring to bringing in the right piece, right?
Lofton played LF for us and was an outstanding LFer despite his age (his weakness was his arm but he made up for it with range). He was a huge reason we beat NYY and the dang stop-sign at 3B could have stopped him from being a hero against Boston as well.
yeah, Pudge deserves all the credit in the world and definitely deserves huge credit for handling their pitching staff, but you keep mentioning not making moves for a veteran in a contending year. I provided you with one.
Or does only HOF in their prime players count? 
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it was a solid move, but if we're not gonna spend money on guys like cc sabathia, cliff lee, victor martinez, and soon to be, grady sizmemore, i need more than that.
that is not good enough, kenny gave us great effort in '07, but if that's all we get by saving money on our core players, than why do it?
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kerry wood is damaged goods. i hated that move from day one. the guy is a complete bum. good guy, but never really panned out from that day he struck out 23.
Complete bums don't strike out 23. 
It just doesn't seem like you're going to be happy unless we are paying $25-$30 million for that once in a few year free agent. The problem with doing that though ... if they pull a Carl Pavano, the franchise is TOAST.
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cop out? hardly. i honestly don't follow the rest of the league, therefore, don't know who's made available. but if moves like david dellucci and trot nixon are your moves, then sign me up for just keeping your own star players and going from there.
You don't really need to follow the league that closely ... just show me an instance where another team signed a Free Agent that we could of got, or made an All-Star player for peanuts trade that we could have done. or even show me an article that says, "We could of made this trade, but Dolan shot it down". I just don't see any of that. If I start hearing stories of All-Star trades that we nixed ... or free agents we could of had that were nixed ... THEN I'll pile on the anti-Dolan bandwagon with you. But I'm just not seeing that yet.
We also didn't get rid of guys and replace them with dellucci and nixon. Salary went up $15-$20 million a year for the few years we should of been playoff worthy. So they were at least trying to improve, there just wasn't a lot there. And they DID try to keep our own stars. They resigned Pronk and Westbrook ... two re-signs that immediatly blew up in our face. They TRIED to resign CC, who more or less informed us that he'd be going to the Yankees for as much as he could scalp them for. They considered keeping V-Mart and Lee ... but after two years of teams woefully under-achieving, it wasn't worth it to sign them to big deals and keep under achieviing.
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because
A. No owner is going agree to lose a ton of $$ no matter what they might say.
B. If we make those moves, it is not just that we are going to have to not add anyone, it is that we will have to expunge our homegrown players earlier instead of letting them develop into a possible contending team
C. if we didn't trade them and couldn't match what they get in FA, then we also don't get to restock our farm system.
#gmstrong
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it was a solid move, but if we're not gonna spend money on guys like cc sabathia, cliff lee, victor martinez, and soon to be, grady sizmemore, i need more than that.
Who knows if we would though ... we just weren't in the right position. We had a team that couldn't make the playoffs. If those guys were at least putting us at the top of the standings in 2008 and 2009, then who's to say he wouldn't of paid them to stay? If we had guys like Santana and LaPorta already waiting in the wings, waiting to come up ... then maybe we do keep those guys? The fact was, we had a horribly under-achieving team, and three guys that were going to command top dollar. You don't pay that kind of money when your team can't make the playoffs with them.
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problem is, those 23 strikeouts happened 12 years ago.
great guy, but i knew when the cubs didn't wanna spend their loot on him that there was obviously something wrong.
i don't expect us to make gigantic splashes. i don't expect cc and mark teixeira and whoever the hell else new york bought that year
but youve gotta make a splash. you can't just bring up the young guys and win. you have got to find resources from elsewhere.
you get money from revenue sharing, you sold the rights to progressive insurance. you're telling me they can't go out and find a way to bring in a productive player?
jason bay was made available in 2008 to the red sox, for prospects, you are telling me we didn't have what boston had to grab a guy like that?
now if we're not putting money into the current roster, then why aren't we into the minor league system???
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Complete bums don't strike out 23.
What about "has-beens"
"My signature line goes here."
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ok, here are some of the moves we 'could' have made going into the 2007 season. which one looks good to you? meche is probably the best, but there's a reason he's listed in the worst because noone thought he was worth that. as for the best guys, who would have really made an impact? Quote:
Best contracts
1. Boston, Matsuzaka, six years, $52 million. The contract was brilliant. Especially when you see what Ted Freakin' Lilly and Gil Freakin' Meche are getting. The tough thing to swallow is the $51 million the Red Sox paid simply for the right to negotiate with Matsuzaka.
2. Los Angeles Dodgers, Randy Wolf, one year, $8 million. While the other kids were all getting crisp $20 bills, Wolf happily accepted 50 cents and went on his way. If he's right physically, working in a pitcher friendly ballpark, the Dodgers could be getting the best pitching bargain of anybody.
3. Detroit, Sean Casey, one year, $4 million. Casey is as Midwest friendly as they come, he fits into the clubhouse like postgame pizza, he's a gap hitter who fits into Comerica Park even better, and he was eminently affordable. What's not to like?
4. St. Louis, Adam Kennedy, three years, $10 million. Very reasonable deal for a guy who can still play, already has a working knowledge of maneuvering around the second-base bag with shortstop David Eckstein and is the consummate professional.
5. Boston, Julio Lugo, four years, $36 million. If Lugo plays like he did with the Dodgers last summer, this could backfire. And the Red Sox already have been there, done that with Edgar Renteria. Here's guessing Lugo will revert back to his old, steady form in his return to both a league and a position in which he is comfortable. Compare this contract to Rafael Furcal getting $13 million a year, and Boston did well.
Worst contracts
1. Zito, San Francisco, seven years, $126 million. There's almost as good a chance of Paris Hilton walking into your computer room right now as there is that this contract will work out for the Giants. Monster contracts for pitchers have a long and sordid history of backfiring. See Brown, Kevin (seven years, $105 million), Hampton, Mike (eight years, $121 million), Dreifort, Darren (five years, $55 million) and Neagle, Denny (five years, $51 million).
2. Juan Pierre, Dodgers, five years, $44 million. Personally, if somebody is going to get $44 million, I'm really happy to see a great guy like Pierre get it. But there's zero power, and he didn't rank among the NL's top 50 in on-base percentage last year.
3. J.D. Drew, Boston, five years, $70 million. Wait until Red Sox fans get their hands on this loafer.
4. Meche, Kansas City, five years, $55 million. Oh ... my ... goodness.
5. Danys Baez, Baltimore, three years, $19 million. The Orioles needed bullpen help and spent $42.4 million on four relievers who are somewhat less than state-of-the-art. In this division, Baez will wear out his welcome far earlier than three years.
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now if we're not putting money into the current roster, then why aren't we into the minor league system???
Who says we aren't? 
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now if we're not putting money into the current roster, then why aren't we into the minor league system???
Who says we aren't?
didn't you say before that we couldn't make trades because we didn't have anything in our minors to give up?
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now if we're not putting money into the current roster, then why aren't we into the minor league system???
Who says we aren't?
didn't you say before that we couldn't make trades because we didn't have anything in our minors to give up?
What does that have to do with putting money into the minor leagues?
you had a good run Hank.
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now if we're not putting money into the current roster, then why aren't we into the minor league system???
Who says we aren't?
didn't you say before that we couldn't make trades because we didn't have anything in our minors to give up?
What does that have to do with putting money into the minor leagues?
can't you purchase draft picks? you tell me. i don't follow the minors.
when someone talks about dumping money into the minors, doesn't that mean on talent as much as it is on the guys developing it?
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and if you supposedly dump all this money into your minor league system, shouldn't you have something to show for it? no?
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like i said, sox got jason bay for a disgrunted manny with a bad contract.
2008, why couldn't we have made that move to make the team better.
where was that move?
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and if you supposedly dump all this money into your minor league system, shouldn't you have something to show for it? no?
Money =/= success 100% of the time.
you had a good run Hank.
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BIG MARKET Boston was doing this ... and you want to call Dolan cheap because he offered slightly less for a deal that almost crippled the Red Sox??
You're so wrong man. Boston put Ramirez on waivers because of his personality and the way he disrespected upper management.
You're argument is that Boston Regretted signing Ramirez. If so, why do they continue to give out huge contracts and extensions to guys like David Ortiz, Josh Beckett, J.D. Drew, and co. - Boston continues to spend lots and lots of money. - We continue to not spend money and suck. - It will be this way as long as Dolan owns the team. Dolan is not going to go out and sign a good veteran, even when the young core improves. - The guy wouldn't even sign 1 out of 2 consecutive Cy Young award winning pitchers, what makes you think he is going to sign anybody else. The Indians are going to stink for the next 13 years and then Dolan or his family will move the team to a different city. - No joke.
Let me ask you this - Do you think that if the Indians lease was up after this season and Dolan recieved an offer of 500 mill to move the team to Oklahoma city that he would pass it up? The man has no interest in being here.
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like i said, sox got jason bay for a disgrunted manny with a bad contract.
2008, why couldn't we have made that move to make the team better.
where was that move?
we could have had Jason Bay for CC Sabathia if we worked out a proper 3-team trade. do you think we should have gotten Jason Bay for CC instead of prospects?
i'm sure you realize that is just silly.
ok, we get it. you want the Indians to pay all their homegrown players and trade for a bunch of allstar players to complement them and to not pay attention to attendance and revenue.
ok, i'll leave you guys to it for now.
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i think if that situation happened exactly like that, he would.
problem is, it's not.
and problem is, the guy is making money. he's got a fairily new ballpark, and the attendance could be much worse considering the product on the field.
i don't see him moving. i don't think he could make much more in okc than he could in cleveland, and all the other big fat markets have their teams.
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No, that means instead of spending $80 million on 9-12 guys at the major league level ... you spend $20 million on 20 guys at the minor league level, hoping that a handful of those guys will step up and be stars a few years later.
You can buy draft picks (it's essentially a trade for money rather than other picks) ... but that doesn't guarentee you'll get a good player with that pick. You still need to trade/acquire top prospects who will command slightly more than usual minor league players ... you do that from drafting well (craps shoot), and trading your major league guys. You pay them slightly more to lock them into longer contracts, and hope that a few of them pan out.
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and if you supposedly dump all this money into your minor league system, shouldn't you have something to show for it? no?
You mean like Sabathia, Lee, Sizemore, V-Mart, Pronk, etc?
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