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No one said the former system was perfect, in fact it was very flawed
Exactly. I get a kick out of the people on here who think that the those who are against this debacle believe health care is perfect as it is today. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who believes that. But when has the gov't ever run something effectively? Especially something this big, which of course was slammed through as if it was a bill to fix up highways. Hell, I think they debate more about that than this 
#gmstrong
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Agreed. I'm all for health insurance reform...as long as the government keeps their paws out of it. Now it's too late and Sunday was a very, very sad day in American history.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Here's something that always bugged me...
You have insurance to cover you in case you get a bad illness or something happens.
But, if you get said illness, they could drop you?
That's BS and I'm glad that loophole is closed.
We didn't need a 1200 page bill to do that. Are there good things in this bill, yes. Are there horrible things in this bill? Double yes. Can the US afford this bill? Economists that I trust more than any politicians says 'no'. Only time will tell and you will have to live with the consequences longer than me.
"My signature line goes here."
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Here's something that always bugged me...
You have insurance to cover you in case you get a bad illness or something happens.
But, if you get said illness, they could drop you?
That's BS and I'm glad that loophole is closed.
No one said the former system was perfect, in fact it was very flawed.
However, if you think this government invasion of health care is good, then more power to you. Hope you like the government option they put out there in a few years when they take over all health care from private businesses.
Where did I ever say that government invasion of healthcare is good?
I'm saying that access to health care should not be impossible for those who need it most.
There's a fine line between too much government intervention and no government intervention. Last I checked, private industry has TOO much influence in our government's regulations...that's a big reason we have so much corruption in the first place.
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Where did I ever say that government invasion of healthcare is good?
Well, you sure as hell don't seem to think it is bad based on your sarcastic reactions.
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Well, day one of socialist United States is in the books, and nothing is different.
Well, aside from all the statues of Stalin and red flags that were mysteriously posted outside our homes.
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Just glanced at the US Capitol. It isn't tie-dyed, and the devil hasn't ripped the dome off and used it as a toilet.
But I am really sad that I have to submit my grandma to the death panel today.
This is going to a painful slow death, not a quick one. And the people responsible for it will be long gone from the gov't by the time the full affects of their decisions kick in. I truly fear for what my son is going to have to deal with when he grows up - I really hope I am wrong, and will be very happy if I am, but this just fast tracked us to the dumper; we were already pretty much there but this sealed the deal IMO. 
#gmstrong
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I said it....so what?? You need insurance, pay the fee and you are covered in a day or two.
Seeing as he is fine, a day or two more than likely wouldn't have mattered. I doubt he had it removed just hours before it would have turned in to a fatal growth.
I am not gambling with anyone. People who don't have coverage are the ones gambling.
peen...Tell us what you know about "Pre existing conditions" clause that is included in every healthcare insurance policy?
If an individual would attempt to slide a little thing such as a pre existing condition such as "kidney cancer" by a HMO...that HMO is going to go after the individual for the cost of the surgery and hospital expenses.
Peen...do you really believe HMOs have not seen this tactic tried before?
The individual may be able to get HC coverage with pre existing conditions, but I'm sure it would be an extremely expensive policy, if they can even find a company willing to take you on.
Cancer is probably the most expensive disease to cover for HMOs and I can't even imagine what the cost of a Healthcare Insurance policy with cancer as a pre existing condition.
Some need to think about the reality of America's Healthcare system and think about how you could be affected, had this reform not been passed.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Cancer is probably the most expensive disease to cover for HMOs and I can't even imagine what the cost of a Healthcare Insurance policy with cancer as a pre existing condition.]
We'll all find out soon enough as the insurance companies aren't bound by rate increases yet as I understand it. All those with insurance will be getting rate hikes as soon as the insurance companies run the numbers.... just like the banks figured it all out with credit cards before Obama reform kicked in last Feb. with that industry. Every time the government tries to help, the costs always trickle down to us.
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Where did I ever say that government invasion of healthcare is good?
Well, you sure as hell don't seem to think it is bad based on your sarcastic reactions.
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Well, day one of socialist United States is in the books, and nothing is different.
Well, aside from all the statues of Stalin and red flags that were mysteriously posted outside our homes.
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Just glanced at the US Capitol. It isn't tie-dyed, and the devil hasn't ripped the dome off and used it as a toilet.
But I am really sad that I have to submit my grandma to the death panel today.
This is going to a painful slow death, not a quick one. And the people responsible for it will be long gone from the gov't by the time the full affects of their decisions kick in. I truly fear for what my son is going to have to deal with when he grows up - I really hope I am wrong, and will be very happy if I am, but this just fast tracked us to the dumper; we were already pretty much there but this sealed the deal IMO.
Because too many people think either a) the sky is falling or b) everything is perfect and everyone is going to be saved and thanks to Obama I don't have worry about working.
Neither view is correct. It's somewhere in between.
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I don't think it's somewhere in between. My wife is currently trying to figure out if she can stay in business. If she has to close the doors than that would definitely mean the sky is falling in my household.
It's funny to me how so many see this as a great thing. There are so many people out of work now. How much worse will it get when small businesses either shut down or have to lay off the employees they currently have?
You keep saying stupid crap like nothing is changing and things aren't suddenly getting worse. You are obviously not very informed. I hope someday you wake up and realize that these things do have real consequences in the real world.
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I said it....so what?? You need insurance, pay the fee and you are covered in a day or two.
Seeing as he is fine, a day or two more than likely wouldn't have mattered. I doubt he had it removed just hours before it would have turned in to a fatal growth.
I am not gambling with anyone. People who don't have coverage are the ones gambling.
peen...Tell us what you know about "Pre existing conditions" clause that is included in every healthcare insurance policy?
If an individual would attempt to slide a little thing such as a pre existing condition such as "kidney cancer" by a HMO...that HMO is going to go after the individual for the cost of the surgery and hospital expenses.
Peen...do you really believe HMOs have not seen this tactic tried before?
The individual may be able to get HC coverage with pre existing conditions, but I'm sure it would be an extremely expensive policy, if they can even find a company willing to take you on.
Cancer is probably the most expensive disease to cover for HMOs and I can't even imagine what the cost of a Healthcare Insurance policy with cancer as a pre existing condition.
Some need to think about the reality of America's Healthcare system and think about how you could be affected, had this reform not been passed.
I think you missed the part where Peen was saying that now (that this bill has passed) someone will pay the $600 fine instead of the $3000 premium and if they need coverage for something major they can get it fairly quickly and can't be denied.
So if someone saves ~$2400/year for 5 years and then one day needs to have coverage he can get it. How long until word gets around that you can do that? How many people will opt to do so? What effect will it have on the Health Insurance industry if the majority of the people paying for the plan actually need it and there isn't this large pool of payers that don't use it??
I believe that is what Balpeen was talking about.
![[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]](http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/Letherface.png)
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Quote:
Quote:
I said it....so what?? You need insurance, pay the fee and you are covered in a day or two.
Seeing as he is fine, a day or two more than likely wouldn't have mattered. I doubt he had it removed just hours before it would have turned in to a fatal growth.
I am not gambling with anyone. People who don't have coverage are the ones gambling.
peen...Tell us what you know about "Pre existing conditions" clause that is included in every healthcare insurance policy?
If an individual would attempt to slide a little thing such as a pre existing condition such as "kidney cancer" by a HMO...that HMO is going to go after the individual for the cost of the surgery and hospital expenses.
Peen...do you really believe HMOs have not seen this tactic tried before?
The individual may be able to get HC coverage with pre existing conditions, but I'm sure it would be an extremely expensive policy, if they can even find a company willing to take you on.
Cancer is probably the most expensive disease to cover for HMOs and I can't even imagine what the cost of a Healthcare Insurance policy with cancer as a pre existing condition.
Some need to think about the reality of America's Healthcare system and think about how you could be affected, had this reform not been passed.
Dude....follow the bouncing ball and read peoples posts before you start making goofy comments. Much earlier I was talking how people could now get insurance with pre-existing and might not have to carry insurance until they started to show signs of a problem. Then Damon piped in about his kidney problem, then I said it wouldn't hurt much to wait a few days...in the context of how it will be now, not how it was then.
Quit typing until you understand what is being said.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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You get it....Mac is the only one who didn't.
What else is new??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I don't think it's somewhere in between. My wife is currently trying to figure out if she can stay in business. If she has to close the doors than that would definitely mean the sky is falling in my household.
It's funny to me how so many see this as a great thing. There are so many people out of work now. How much worse will it get when small businesses either shut down or have to lay off the employees they currently have?
You keep saying stupid crap like nothing is changing and things aren't suddenly getting worse. You are obviously not very informed. I hope someday you wake up and realize that these things do have real consequences in the real world.
It's not like everything's peachy over here either. My mom's business is hanging by a thread.
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So if someone saves ~$2400/year for 5 years and then one day needs to have coverage he can get it. How long until word gets around that you can do that? How many people will opt to do so? What effect will it have on the Health Insurance industry if the majority of the people paying for the plan actually need it and there isn't this large pool of payers that don't use it??
Sounds like there will have to be an amended clause that denies coverage for these people. 
Or...we can have "ObamaCare II - UH-OH" the sequel where those who refuse to be covered have the costs passed along to the 4 people left in the system who actually pay for the insurance.
"My signature line goes here."
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Because too many people think either a) the sky is falling or b) everything is perfect and everyone is going to be saved and thanks to Obama I don't have worry about working.
Neither view is correct. It's somewhere in between.
I personally think it is closer to the sky is falling for the people who work for a living. I just got off the phone with my brother - he works in the medical equipment industry as a territory sales director. Their CEO was pretty hard on the Obama health plan a few weeks ago - now the FDA is all over them sending letters to every client basically stating their equipment is faulty if not maintained. But the way it is written it is hard to decipher the "not maintained" portion as everyone knows if something isn't maintained it isn't going to work. He has lost sales due to this and could possibly end up cutting people on his team all because the CEO was critical of Obama; kinda scary stuff.
It is tactics like this to strong-arm this crap through that really gets me. I hope you are correct that it is somewhere in the middle, but I just do not see that as possible. There is going to come a point when there won't be enough people to pay taxes to sustain this garbage.
#gmstrong
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I didn't realize it would start so soon - the strong arming.
Just wait til insurance companies get things figured out. Wanna see sky rocketing premiums and mass lay offs? (lay offs in every sector of the economy).
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I wonder just how many more people can get laid off.. seems to me we are pared to the bone already.
Phooey.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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The funny thing as well is that his company is the ONLY US based medical device operation who still manufactures every piece of equipment they make in the states. You would think the gov't would kinda like that, wouldn't you?
#gmstrong
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The funny thing as well is that his company is the ONLY US based medical device operation who still manufactures every piece of equipment they make in the states. You would think the gov't would kinda like that, wouldn't you?
I used to think that. But then I learned that our gov't. cares ONLY about how much money they control.
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The funny thing as well is that his company is the ONLY US based medical device operation who still manufactures every piece of equipment they make in the states. You would think the gov't would kinda like that, wouldn't you?
You talking about Invacare?
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daman...you run a risk on this message board, if you even attempt to relate "REAL" life situations about how screwed up the HMO healthcare system is...many won't believe you and many don't want to hear it!
Some on this message board live in a fantasy world where they believe they are somehow exempt for the realities of life...
Well, 2 pages of posts since this BS statement, and not one person saying they didn't believe Daman. Good post, mac. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Just wait til insurance companies get things figured out. Wanna see sky rocketing premiums and mass lay offs? (lay offs in every sector of the economy).
They were there almost every step of the way. This bill is the most profitable thing to happen to their industry in a long time.
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jc
Has Obama forgotten how to count?
"When there's a bill that ends up on my desk as President, you the public will have 5 days to look online to find out what's in it before I sign it."
The bill passed on Sunday, he signed it on Tuesday. Where's the 5 days?
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jc
Has Obama forgotten how to count?
"When there's a bill that ends up on my desk as President, you the public will have 5 days to look online to find out what's in it before I sign it."
The bill passed on Sunday, he signed it on Tuesday. Where's the 5 days?
He once said there were 57 states. He's got math issues along with truth issues.
"My signature line goes here."
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Interesting image, too big to embed. http://i.imgur.com/590Ev.png
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Obama Administration Awarded Hundreds of Thousands in Airport Grants to Stupak’s District Two Days Before Vote Was this Yet Another Backroom Deal to Force Obama’s Bill Down the American People’s Throats? Three airports in the district of infamous fence-sitting and ultimately kowtowing Democrat Bart Stupak were awarded $726,409 in grants by the Obama Administration just two days before a vote on Obama and Pelosi’s government takeover of healthcare. Did Stupak compromise his supposed principled stand against taxpayer funding of abortion in exchange for taxpayer dollars for pet projects? Alpena County Regional Airport received a $85,500 grant, but had only 7,519 passenger boardings in 2008 (the most recent year for which there is information) according to Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) data. Alpena County Regional Airport serves fewer passengers than even the late Rep. John Murtha’s famous “Airport for Nobody.” Delta County Airport has even less customers than that, but still received a $179,209 grant. Chippewa County International Airport received a $461,700 grant, but had only 13,733 passenger boardings in 2008. Will Stupak come clean about this apparent backroom deal for his vote? web page
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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All Pro
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You'll see more and more of those types of things crawling out of the woodwork.
Both sides suck, what a disaster.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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What a dirtbag.
Sadly, however, that is politics in America.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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What a dirtbag.
Sadly, however, that is politics in America.
READ...
Right-wing media's latest smear: Stupak bribed with airport funds
March 22, 2010 1:44 pm ET — 9 Comments
Right-wing media seized on Rep. Bart Stupak's (D-MI) recent announcement that three airports in his district received federal grant money in order to baselessly claim the Obama administration bribed him for his vote on health care reform. In fact, there is absolutely no evidence that the airport funds are related to Stupak's vote, and indeed, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) awarded grants in 47 states -- including one in Minority Leader John Boehner's district -- as part of a decades-old airport improvement program.
FAA grants were awarded in nearly every state
Stupak: "[T]hree airports in northern Michigan have received grants totaling $726,409." On March 19, Stupak's office issued a press release announcing that "three airports in northern Michigan have received grants totaling $726,409 for airport maintenance and improvements." The press release states that airports in Alpena, Delta, and Chippewa counties all received funds.
FAA approved grants in 47 states -- not just Stupak's district. FAA issued the grants as a part of its Airport Improvement Program (AIP). For fiscal year 2010, FAA approved grants in 47 states and in the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, and Guam.
Airport Improvement Program has existed since the early 1980s. According to FAA, the AIP was established in 1982. The program "provides grants to public agencies -- and, in some cases, to private owners and entities -- for the planning and development of public-use airports that are included in the National Plan of Integrated Airport Systems (NPIAS)." The NPIAS "identifies public-use airports that are important to public transportation and contribute to the needs of civil aviation, national defense, and the Postal service."
Districts of Republican congressmen also awarded grants
Airport in Boehner's district awarded funds. FAA awarded an airport in Darke County, Ohio -- which is in Boehner's district -- with $108,738 to rehabilitate a runway.
Airport in Pence's district awarded funds. FAA awarded an airport in Anderson, Indiana -- which is in Rep. Mike Pence's district -- with $75,000 for airport improvements.
11 airports in Young's district awarded funds. FAA awarded funding to 11 airports in Alaska -- all of which are represented by Rep. Don Young. In total, airports in Alaska have received more than $56 million in FAA grants.
Airport in King's district awarded funds. FAA awarded $394,969 to an airport in Sioux City, Iowa -- which is located in Rep. Steve King's district.
Airport in Kingston's district awarded funds. FAA awarded $2.7 million to an airport in Brunswick, Georgia -- which is in Rep. Jack Kingston's district.
Airport in Bachmann's district awarded funds. FAA awarded $75,000 to an airport in Paynesville, Minnesota -- which appears to be in Rep. Michele Bachmann's district.
Conservative media accuse administration of bribing Stupak for health care vote
McCaughey: Grants "may have had something to do with his decision." Citing Stupak's press release, Betsy McCaughey said on Fox News' Hannity: "It may be that Bart Stupak was not bamboozled by the executive order. It's clear that executive orders cannot change the law. But on Friday, Stupak announced over $700,000 in brand new federal funding for three small airports in his district. Now, that may be coincidence, but it seems to me as if it may have had something to do with his decision," adding that "they're buying votes for their bill with our money." Host Sean Hannity replied, "Airport kickback?" [Hannity, 3/22/10]
Big Journalism: Stupak is a "cheap date." On BigGovernment.com, Izzy Lyman wrote: "Holy Mackinac Bridge, Batman. The blogosphere is calling Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) a 'cheap date.' ... Considering what it took to get him to vote for the U.S. Senate health care bill, that's a fitting way to describe Slick Stupak. According to Stupak, he struck a deal with President Obama, trading his 'yes' vote for a 'worthless, non-binding' executive order prohibiting federal funding for abortions. And perhaps an airport or three."
Instapundit: "A STUPAK PAYOFF?" On the blog Instapundit, Glenn Reynolds wrote: "A STUPAK PAYOFF? 'U.S. Congressman Bart Stupak (D-Menominee) announced three airports in northern Michigan have received grants totaling $726,409 for airport maintenance and improvements. The funding was provided by the U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration.' Probably just a coincidence."
Sweetness & Light: "[W]e like to think that our politicians aren't being bought and sold at such low prices." On the conservative blog Sweetness & Light, Steve Gilbert quoted from Stupak's press release and wrote: "It's just a coincidence, no doubt. And there is surely a lot more to come. At least we like to think that our politicians aren't being bought and sold at such low prices."
Right-wing media repeatedly smear Democrats with allegations of "special deals" in health bill
Right-wing media have repeatedly attacked health care reform and smeared Democrats with baseless allegations that the Obama administration has attempted to buy votes or has cut "special deals" or "bribes" for health care reform.
web page
You can choose to be lead by the nose, following along behind the radical right agenda of lies and distortions...or simply fact check the info coming from RW websites, such as "Code Red"...
...the choice is yours...
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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You get it....Mac is the only one who didn't.
What else is new??
peen...I finally found it...you were responding to "Squires", not "Daman"...
Most of the time, I do not follow your posts so you will have to forgive me for missing your post to squires.
BTW...did you know that the fine you spoke of, $650 (rounded), does not go into effect until 2016?
Under the plan approved by Congress, the fine for not carrying insurance would be...
...$95 a year or 1 percent of a person's income starting in 2014, whichever is greater
...$325 or 2 percent of income in 2015
...$695 or 2.5 percent of income in 2016
My comment was aimed, not at the math of trying to save a buck...but at the "fact" that Daman was making...that there is no way to know if a person is going to have time to run out and buy insurance "before" they get sick and "before" they need coverage.
Regardless, the fine issue and amounts of the fine could be one of the points that gets tweeked before it goes into effect.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I'll take that as an apology.....no worries.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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jc
Has Obama forgotten how to count?
"When there's a bill that ends up on my desk as President, you the public will have 5 days to look online to find out what's in it before I sign it."
The bill passed on Sunday, he signed it on Tuesday. Where's the 5 days?
Bump...waiting for mac to post a link to a blog that defines 5 days as being 5 days on the plant Zarthon which is actually about 72 hours in earth days.
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And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 798
All Pro
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All Pro
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Quote:
Has Obama forgotten how to count?
"When there's a bill that ends up on my desk as President, you the public will have 5 days to look online to find out what's in it before I sign it."
The bill passed on Sunday, he signed it on Tuesday. Where's the 5 days?
The original Senate bill has been posted since November (roughly 120 days ago). The reconciliation bill (which is really minor fixes without changing the Senate bill a great deal) was posted on Mar 18. Yesterday was Mar 23. Five days.
http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/housesenatebill_final.pdf
(Not directed at any particular person); If we've had 4 months to look this stuff up and people haven't, then they have little room to complain. Especially since a number of the complaints I am hearing either aren't true or are only half a truth that would've been answered if people had simply looked at a comprehensive summary of the bill.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,188
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Good link jfan, he also says no more secrecy. How does he explain all those under the table deals in order to buy votes for this bill?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,402
Hall of Famer
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The bill passed Sunday evening...Obama signed it Tuesday. That's two days...arguably 1.5 days. The supporters of the bill said themselves..."we have to vote on it to know what's in it." They knew what was in it Sunday evening. No spin allowed. 
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 798
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It's not spin. If you bothered to follow my link, you would know that the reconciliation bill was posted March 18, the exact same bill word for word that passed the House on Sunday. March 18 - March 23 = 5 days. More importantly, the vast majority of the bill has been available for 4 months. Quote:
The supporters of the bill said themselves..."we have to vote on it to know what's in it."
I don't know the context of that line, but if I take it at face value, it's not a very intelligent comment. That doesn't change the fact that anyone who bothered to look up a comprehensive summary of the bill would have known what's in it for the past 4 months.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,402
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The Senate bill passed the House Sunday and was signed into law Tuesday. It is now the law of the land. That bill has been posted since November.
I was mistaken before; it is not five days. The reconciliation fixes bill (minor changes to the Senate bill) was posted on Thursday and also passed the House on Sunday. It still has to pass the Senate; it is not the law of the land until that happens and the president signs it.
So more correctly, the reconciliation bill has been posted since Thursday, passed the House, but is not yet the law of the land. It has been 6 days since posting of this version of the bill, 3 days since passage of the House, but we are still counting up until it passes the Senate and the president's desk.
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Joined: Sep 2009
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It's clear then that it will be much more than 5 days until the reconciliation bill passes the Senate and the president signs it. My main point is that wrangling over a few days is sort of silly; the bottom line is that the vast majority of the bill has been posted for four months.
Last edited by tjs7; 03/24/10 10:02 AM.
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