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What do you do when you have a wasp nest on your house?
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Sorry, I will not change my mind on this until birds no longer die.
You may not have been literal with this statement, however I do agree that putting them in migratory paths is a bad idea.
I was being literal. Thanks for sharing the cam. 
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I don't know how much you know about what goes into the instalation of these things and the effects of migratory birds however; they do research for a signifcant amount of time before they plant these windmills to try and avoid those issues.
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Fly 100 geese through one, only about 10 would get hit
Sorry, I will not change my mind on this until birds no longer die. I don't think it's okay to continually try to better our species at the expense of other species -- and I never will. Can you imagine a sky without birds? A morning without chirping? If we keep justifying everything that is killing the birds, it will happen. 
Do you drive a car?
the sides of roads are often littered with dead birds in rural areas because they fly in front of cars.
Do you like Baseball? Randy Johnson once killed a bird with a baseball.
The point i'm trying to make is that... they do things to try to avoid the killings of birds. Yes, I'm sure with all the windmills a few will die however, they are not executing birds like PETA is making it out to be.
Meh.
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President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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Sorry, I will not change my mind on this until birds no longer die.
You may not have been literal with this statement, however I do agree that putting them in migratory paths is a bad idea.
I was being literal. Thanks for sharing the cam.
Glad to share it, I've watched it off and on for years and the forums are great too.
Please keep in mind if the impact is less than what is happening today fewer deaths and problems are still a desired result I would think. If it saves 10 birds a year and it takes 20 years to develop something safer for the birds and environment you still have saved 200 birds that would have died without the change.
Granted the numbers have to be accurate and not fudged for it to matter lol
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Here is a rendering
http://media.cleveland.com/business_impa...71705_large.jpg
too large to display here
Offshore is better I think, however they will attract birds in the water as a safe resting point...so Im torn between too close or too far to the shore. Guess thats what experts are for.
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What do you do when you have a wasp nest on your house?
I kill them. If you are trying to imply that birds and wasps are the same thing, this conversation is over.
I'm trying everything in my power right now to keep the House Sparrows and Starlings form building nests on my back porch awning. And, in fact, I will tear down every nest they build...even if they have eggs in them. You see, HOSP and European Starlings are both introduced species that aren't protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty. They are killing our songbirds and taking over in many places. I will not encourage them by letting them breed on my back porch. Does that somehow justify the building of wind turbines, too?
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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the sides of roads are often littered with dead birds in rural areas because they fly in front of cars.
Often? Try "always".
Birds? Try: deer, coon, opossum, woodchuck, birds, skunks, snakes, I see fox every once in a while, cats, dogs........us "country" folk get tired of having to dodge the dead bodies on the road - and I mean that literally.
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I'm just saying that I have issues with these turbines for this reason...besides the fact that they are damned ugly. Clearly wind power is more important than protecting our wildlife for most people. 
Do you really think that these:
are unsightlier and more hazardous to wildlife than:
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I'm not going to make any silly jokes because I think you are very serious and passionate about this issue. I'm also not going to pretend I have the answer because I don't have a clue.
The thing is we do need to do something and I believe Arch has a point. I do remember the EPA is pretty rigid on the destruction of wildlife. I believe that is what Arch is referring to with the dams.
I think we need to try and strike some balance. We should protect wildlife and the environment but not to the point where we are worried about killing a small amount of wildlife.
#gmstrong
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I think you could do it with wind ... you just need to research ways to be more conscience of aviary traffic.
Heck a simple fix would be to "gear" the turbines so that when the blade speed reaches a certain speed deemed to be fatal to bird ... the generator would gear up, similar to how a bicycle works. The result would be, high torque that could generate lots of power ... and slower, non-lethal propeller speed.
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I think it's kinda hard especially considering I've personally seen a bird fly into a window and kill itself.
I do think protecting the birds are important however we are making a switch to something that will cause far less polution for the whole ecosystem with wind vs coal or other types of old school powerplants.
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Larege Bald eagles weigh about 10-13 pounds. A tiny Carolina Wren weighs in around 3/4 of an ounce. I'm quite sure even a small blade (2' in length, let's say) would kill both of those birds instantly. If you can come up with a way to keep the endangered and rare birds from being killed by these things, you will be an instant billionaire!  If there's a safe way to make it work, I'm in.
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put giant mesh screens around them like what we have in our houses
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I know a lot about birds, but not much about their vision. Why not outline the blades with LED lights or something? I wonder if that would work.
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I think they look cool
Joe Thomas #73
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that would look cool and it would be safe for planes 2 birds with one stone... so to speak
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I"m not trying to change your opinion. I am stating my opinion.
But - serious question - we are constantly told we need to quit using oil - so, what do we turn to?
Wind power? Kills a few birds - can't use it.
Nuke? Can't use it cause it's "too dangerous".
Solar? Not reliable.
Hydro? hurts fish.
So what do we do?
My main problem with nuclear isn't that it's too dangerous, its that we are creating spent fuel rods much faster than we can deal with them.. these things need stored for a long time and I'm not thinking that sticking them in a mountin in Nevada is the greatest long term solution since these things last forever..
But your point is valid, every fix to the problem comes with its own set of issues... the obvious answer is that there is no obvious answer. There is no on-size-fits-all answer. In some places turbines might be a great idea, in others it might be hydro-electric and in others geothermal.. or some combination of many things...
The other thing we need to focus on is using less.. I bet some of those old commercial buildings of downtown Cleveland are using 300% more energy than a similar size new building.
yebat' Putin
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kinda like this??? here is the video: http://www.fox8.com/videobeta/0e1c3076-d...ear-Power-PlantCLEVELAND - FirstEnergy has confirmed that two people were transported to the hospital for "heat stress" following a fire at its Perry Nuclear Power Plant. Crews managed to extinguish the fire before 9:45 p.m. Sunday, and there was no contamination at the Center Road facility, according to FirstEnergy. Fox 8 News first learned of the fire around 7 p.m. Sunday. According to spokesman Todd Schneider, a "small fire" started around in a lubrication plant that feeds one of the water pumps that cools the nuclear reactor. The pump had to be taken offline, so the utility has reduced output of the plant to 75 percent of its capacity. Schneider said no customers have lost power as a result of the incident. FirstEnergy also confirmed that there is no threat to neighbors following this episode http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-fire-nuclear-power-plant-txt,0,2418243.story
Meh.
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I can only do what I can do. In the winter, my thermostats are set - at night, 62 degrees (my daughters room is 65 - I gave in to my wife on that one). 65 during the evening (daughter and I are gone all day, wife sleeps because of her working nights).
How much colder should I keep it. (and trust me, I'm never cold in the house - neither is my daughter. She got my genes in that respect)
I would have solar in a heart beat - IF it would save me money. To run my house - and we are as tight when it comes to energy usage as anyone - I'm looking at $40,000 plus. For what? To save on average $150 per month. That's a 22 year break even point. Wind power is about the same.
With wind power you have maintenance costs - at about 7- 10 years - so the payback period gets extended.
It just doesn't make economic sense.
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I can only do what I can do.
I know that arch... I know that.
Everything has a cost/benefit... everything has a lifecycle payback period.. I know. I was mainly talking about commercial property but if you want to bring it up... all of those homes in that part of Ohio with heating and cooling equipment more than 10 years old, with old windows, with poor insulation, with poor caulking.. they are sucking down energy...
But if you ask what more can you do.. call the power company. The power company here will do a full house assessment for free, they will tell you if more attic insulation could help or one of those thermal wrap things would help or if caulking around windows would help.. You seem like a smart guy and can probably assess most of that for yourself but they have been known to find things even smart guys miss. Some low cost things that can pay for themselves relatively quickly.. rather than $40K for solar panels. 
yebat' Putin
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You must be an urban person, right? I've had our boiler checked - the guy said it was running as good as possible. When I asked him if getting a new one would be worth it he turned and looked at me and said "No". New windows on the house - about 4 years ago. Our house is insulated - very well. We have wood siding and are thinking of having vinyl put on - so I drilled through in a couple of places - just to check the insulation. We're fine. (keep in mind, when we bought the house we completely re did the kitchen - it actually had a wood burning stove in there - in the kitchen Tore that out, tore the bricks out, put in basically a new wall where it had been - outside wall. I know what the house is) Short of changing all of our lightbulbs to flourescent, we can't do much. And that's fine. Avg. $150 month for electric? Not bad. I have programmable thermostats in the house - they are programmed. If we go away for a weekend - or more - I set them at 52 degrees. I'm not griping about what I pay - I'm griping about people saying "go green", but solar panels are damn expensive. A wind turbine - which I looked into - damn expensive. Why should I pay for something that has a roughly 22 year - YEAR - break even point? Especially when you consider the 22 yr. break even point doesn't account for the expected re-build on the wind power after 7 to 10 years?
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Info on bird mortality: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob...3dc9899a7846019you can only read the abstract - but the result is that wind farms kill 20x less birds per unit energy than fossil fuels i can look up more details tomorrow when i'm on campus - (free access without trying to jump through the hoops of university library logins) but i'll try to post some more results/articles and see if there is some consensus (research-wise) on this point ~Lyuokdea
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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Last edited by ~TuX~; 03/30/10 03:29 AM.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Quote:
I know a lot about birds, but not much about their vision. Why not outline the blades with LED lights or something? I wonder if that would work.
Bird vision is their main line defense(other than flying) and for some hunting...Eagles and hawks as an example shouldn't have a problem seeing a moving 15' blade at 100 yards if they can see a field mouse at 100 yards.
I think the problem is the way the things are clustered. You get in to the middle of the things it becomes hard to dodge all the moving blades. Spread them out a bit so if they get through one set of blades they aren't going in to the next set.
I wonder if they do that to have one mill more or less help fan the one behind it?
The problem with mills and birds migratory paths is they seek the same predictable wind patterns. Knowing the migratory paths is a roadmap on where to place the things.
I wonder if getting the things to rotate at a 90 degree angle, like a helicopter would help reduce the problem?? You wouldn't have as much surface area to get them started, but once in motion it would be about the same....you might have to use some power to give them a start-up boost.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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j/k
The wind turbines around bowling Green are pretty amazing, there not airplane propellers and to me not a eye sore, just something diffrent, I'm sure anything diffrent and large starts out as an eye sore at first and as time goes bye other items become more important and the old eye sore is just part of the country side,
Wind Turbines killing birds......my question is ok we dont build them, what do we do next, import more oil....or maybe drill ourselves for oil, Alaska ok do we now sacrifice the Moose, fish, other animals that will be affected bye us drilling, land needs to be cleared for camps, tons of machinery needs brought in, talk about killing the enviorment, is it better to kill a few birds or a few carabo, lets go with the Carabo, we dont see that, it's far away in Alaska, I'm not making fun of anybody, just bringing out a point. No Turbines, what do we do next, I've always found people who stand back and complaine about things but have no alternate ideas, funny, Wind Turbines, NO kills birds, ok whats your idea, ....Have none, ok lets go hydro....Cant kills fish, your idea...have none, So then they go home to thier gas / electric powered homes, Wonder how many birds are killed on powerlines each year....and Arch is right, country roads are littered with Road kill, right now thier all waking up and running out to mate and the lure of a warm road & a women are deadly.....as always..
My question is why are these birds flying into the turbine, something must be drawing them into the path, We need to find out what it is and fix it, is it the white color, maybe painting them diffrently, so they dont draw birds and are not a bright orange eye sore,
Has anybody seen up close, I mean seen, not just heard about what the calderan bird is doing to the lake Erie shoreline & vegitation, has anybody been out on a boat and gotten close to one of those small islands where they nest, I guarntee if you have you'd think somewhat diffrently about this bird after seeing & smelling. it's destroying the shoreline
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arch, you are talking specifically about you. I am talking generally about the older homes and commercial buildings from Pittsburgh to Buffalo to Cleveland to Detroit to Chicago..
I'm glad yours is in good shape, many are not.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Bird vision is their main line defense(other than flying) and for some hunting...Eagles and hawks as an example shouldn't have a problem seeing a moving 15' blade at 100 yards if they can see a field mouse at 100 yards.
I meant more about their night vision. Sorry, I should have made myself more clear. That's why I was thinking LED's. 
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Clay said: Wonder how many birds are killed on powerlines each year
You guys keep mentioning things that already kill birds as though it's okay to just keep adding more.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
I meant more about their night vision
LOL.....Ok....my bad.
Do migrating birds fly at night??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Yes, most songbirds do. Wildfoul migrate both day and night. They are said to use the stars for navigation.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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"We are talking to domestic and foreign manufacturers," he said.
Full disclosure, I don't know what domestic or foreign manufacturers are out there - but I certainly hope they "talk to" the domestic ones more.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
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I'd hate to read thourh this entire thread Michelle,, how many birds will get killed by one of these turbines.. is there an estimate anywhere...
#GMSTRONG
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Well, like everything else, it depends on who or where you read. Some say zero kills, some say thousands of birds in an array per year. So, I guess the answer is they really have no idea.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Thanks,, I was kinda trying to think, if each turbine killed X number per year, it might be justifiable for the overall benefit to the earth.. But without a number, it's hard to quantify..
Overall, I applaud you for caring as much as you do. In the end, it would have to be what benefits us more,, the birds or the energy.. I don't really have an answer..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Do migrating birds select migration routes that gives them a better tail wind.. and is that not also probably the best place for windmills?
yebat' Putin
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In the end, it would have to be what benefits us more,, the birds or the energy..
Yes, it's always got to be about us. That's what bugs me about mankind...bunch of selfish bastards.
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If people didn't think of electricity as a right, then it wouldn't be a problem. But the fact is the world uses resources to create power as if it were disposable.
In order to keep up with our demands, there is a constant need for more power. Given that petroleum resources are limited, renewables are a good option.
Fact is we should look for all opportunities to create power in the most cost effective and environmentally conscious ways possible. Renewable power is a huge part of this equation. But renewable power still comes with its own costs and there's some discomfort with this because its new realities that people haven't gotten used to.
Wind Power.... land use and avian mortality
Ethanol and biodiesel... use of agricultural land for energy stock, increase in food prices
Hydro power... disruption of natural aquatic environments
etc etc etc
The bottom line is that you need to mix your energy supplies and use them appropriately, intelligently and responsibly. Develop regulations (sorry to use the government) to ensure that these generation facilities are being developed to create the least impact on the environment and keep looking for ways to improve.
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Do migrating birds select migration routes that gives them a better tail wind.. and is that not also probably the best place for windmills?
That's what I said earlier...birds usually follow the winds....patterns that have been established over the eons.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Yes, it's always got to be about us. That's what bugs me about mankind...bunch of selfish bastards.
Well, Yeah... otherwise, we'd not be able to eat chicken or beef...
Unless of course you want to tell me that everyone that eats Chared Mammal Flesh is a ...?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Wind turbines to be built in Lake
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