DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum The emancipation proclamation

There are scholarships exclusive to blacks, Asians, Italians...hell, I remember seeing a scholarship available to females with red hair, because apparently the woman who founded the scholarship was teased as a young girl for her red hair and freckles. There's scholarships available to only those who work for a certain company, to those who play a certain sport...

If it were up to me, every black kid in need in America would be able to go to school for free on the government's dime for the length of time that their ancestors were denied equal education. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Actually, every kid in need. Education should be available by way of intelligence, not money.

My forefathers were sharecroppers. No program for my grandkids? My forefathers were not slave owners. But my family should pay?

I don't think so Tim. If you wish to charge those who gained from slavery,so be it. But what about those who fought and died to help end slavery? Oh that's right,we get zero credit for that part,I keep forgetting.
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Yes. Not because they did something wrong. But to help because something wrong happened.


Tim? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don't think I'm laying the blame or credit anywhere.

What happened, happened. Simply recommending that we make up for lost time isn't accusing or lauding anyone.

The problem isn't too few kids going to college...not even too few of any particular group going onto college. The problem is that too few belong in college since they are not properly prepared generally by our system of government schools.

"...If it were up to me, every black kid in need in America would be able to go to school for free on the government's dime for the length of time that their ancestors were denied equal education. "

Phooey....just what we need, more young adults avoiding life's responsibilities on someone else's dime. No wonder we have such a low level of educational excellence in America...we have too many people in college who have no business there in the first place.
Sending all kids of one race...or any race...or all races to college is faulty planning for the future. The cost to the taxpayer is enormous and leads to the dumbing down of classes to accommodate the "less quick to pick up" students. As it is now a huge number of freshmen must take remedial English and math courses to be at the lowest acceptable level for high school seniors.

It is a darn shame that all high school graduates aren't required to take a year off after graduation to work and learn the lessons of life. If they then can meet the requirements then let them test their mettle on a college campus.

I agree with you...partially. I think government schools are the way to go...I just don't think we're doing it the right way. And, yes, there are too many idiots in college and not enough intelligent ones. But my problem is that there are a lot of intelligent ones being left out. And 99 times out of 100, the reason is money.



And a black kid automatically has no business there in the first place?

It's not like their handing out passes to any black kid who wants to go. 'Hey, you, with the .8 GPA...you want to go to college...for free?' <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

But, yes, aside from the connotation of the subject...there are too many kids in college who don't deserve to be there.



I'm compelled to disagree, but I kind of agree.

The government schools are to blame for the poor education we deliver to a great percentage of young people. Are the teachers to blame-partially since their elected union officials place compensation and job protection before high performance teaching and individual teacher rewards for ingenuity. Are administrators to blame? some of them sure. Many of them insist upon pushing the teaching of self esteem when the lazy students deserve to be singled out and embarrassed when they don't work to achieve excellence.

"I'm compelled to disagree, but I kind of agree"
Are you a teacher?????


"And a black kid automatically has no business there in the first place" ?
Shame on you my friend...that was totally uncalled for...Putting unprepared black kids into a college environment and simply following a more advanced form of "Social Progression" is unethical,,,just as it is for white,brown or yellow kids.

So people shouldn't try to help others of their etnictiy try to better themselves? But they shouldn't let discrimination against their ethnicity keep them from bettering themselves?That makes no sense whatsoever. You don't want people to use their ethnicty as an excuse but you don't want them to help each other out when other groups are discriminating against them.

And people who raise money in their clubs shouldn't have any right to say how that money is spent? Or is it just that they shouldn't spend it on eductiong the children of their members?

I didn't know there was discrimination against people of Irish,Itallian or any other heritage when it comes to college enrollment?

You either score high and get in,or you don't. You either qualify based on your grades,or you don't. Pretty basic really.

Where's the Irish discrimination? Never heard of it accept for when they first came to America.

Let's see,I'm part Cherokee,part Irish and part German. I think I'll see how many government programs,race based grants and low interest loans I qualify for?Maybe I can get some freebees too!

That train of thought is what's counter-productive. I admire people who rise above that instead of using their heritage as a crutch to discriminate against others on ethnicly based programs,they are accountable for themselves. I'd say they probably do better overall than those who start out looking for favoritism..

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I agree, AS LONG AS, every Italian (like myself) gets a percentage of every business profit made in the US, because without Italians (like me) the US would not exist - Columbus was Italian - he discoverd America. Where's my finder's fee??????

Look back a few decades when most of these organizations were formed there most certainly was discrimination. If there are programs to help you based on your ethncity go for it. I know the scholarships my relatives got also required them to meet certain requirements with grades and community service and they had to write an essay and pass an interview process.

So you are saying that people who form clubs shouldn't spend their money to educate their members children or do what ever they please with the money they? And that people shouldn't use ethnicity as an excuse but they shouldn't do anything about it was far as making sure they get an education? Because it sure looks like that's what you're saying.

Look at now. Certain things and clubs outlive their usefullness and purpose. Sometimes the change in circumstances creates a need for change. And I'm not a huge proponent to change.
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And I get rather confused sometimes when people who feel who speak so much of equality always points out percieved divisions? I mean I won't say that fourty years ago,some of these clubs weren't needed,but how long do we keep perpetuating things that are unfair and discriminatory by nature and in name against other Americans? I mean when are we going to be willing to call ourselves "Americans" and unify instead of having to qualify ourselves by some other nationality or name first?

Only untill we're ready to be a people,will we become a people. It's time America move forward together instead of looking behind themselves seperately.

So we should all forget out ancestors and where they came from? We should forget the traditions of the heritage that they fought to perserve? It's not dishonoring them to say that but it's dishonoring what they fought for to say we still have racism in this country? To celebrate and honor the traditions our ancestors gave us doesn't divide us it helps us learn about the experiences of others. It acutally breaks down the barriers that the fear of not understanding other's traditions can create. It brings us together in recognizing though we may celebrate the Holidays differently or worship differently etc that we really are more the same than we are different.

What you're saying is I should forget the hertitage of my Grandmother who came here from Scotland as a young woman to clean the houses of the rich in Cleveland. I should forget all the people myshe and Grandfather's family left behind in Scotland.? He came here as a lad with his family and when he grew up helped to build this city stone by stone. He died before I was born because of the disease caused by stone dust in his lungs but I should dishonor his memory? Then there was my Great Grandfather from Bavaria (yeah they aren't really all Germans that's just what we call them, there are actually regions that are very different same with Italians etc) and my Great Grandmother from Holland. I should just pretend they never made the sacrifice of leaving everything and everyone they knew for the promise of a better life?

I won't even start on what the immigrants actually faced and how that "better life" turned out for many (that would be another thread). I will say that many never intended to stay here they just came to work and go home. Many did just that but others remained because the "dream" for them became reality others stayed because they couldn't afford to go back. Oh our country has a rich social history but so often all we are taught of the catch phrases the "melting pot" and the American dream". By buying into the marketing slogans we miss out on a lot of that richness.

What makes this country great and presents us with many challenges and opportunities for growth is our diverstiy. Yet you're saying we should deny our diversity and thus ignore those opportunities.

Oh BTW is it because you don't think those clubs should exist you didn't answer who should decide how they spend the money they raise? Also I'm curious is it OK for Bikers to have clubs? Or Hunters? Or Knitters? etc. If they raise money for a scolarship fund is it OK if they give it to the child of a club memeber? Or should they allow any child in the country to apply? Or should all clubs be abolished because they separate us?

Why be so obscure?
What do hunting clubs have to do with advancement based on race?

And who said anything about "forgetting your culture"? You can't seem to define the difference in using your culture for unfair advantage and having some pride in your culture? They are two different things and I'm fairly sure you knew that when you went to such obscure measures.

But it is time our "culture" becomes secondary to being an American.You can call it culture when you use race to an unfair advantage if you like,but that's not related to culture at all. It's simply using the term culture to mask discrimination against everyone else who is not from your race or heritage.

There's really nothing "cultural" about that.To learn about,be proud of and teach others about your culture is a fine thing as long as you realise that you're American first.If not,there are ships and planes available to lead you to where you heart is.

We're all Americans and once all people place that first,we will be united. Untill then,racism will keep rearing its ugly head. Because every time certain races get an unfair advantage,there are victims on the other end of that favoritism. And wheather you realise it or not,they will in turn will hold resentment as well. You're promoting the same vicious cycle we are currently in and it hasn't solved anything but a double standard in our society. Sorry,but we are all Americans and it's time we all start acting like it.

OK since you're not going to answer the questions asked there's no point in continuing this discussion. It doesn't advance anything to have a one way conversation.

Besides I'm guessing people are pretty bored with this by now but racism isn't going to go away because people pretend it doesn't exist.

As for us recognizing we're all Americans being the solution, I believe it goes further to us recognizing we are ALL beings of spirit created by one Universal force (no matter what you choose to call it).

For now though I think I'll wait till I see you again to continue this conversation. Hopefully I'll get down to Dayton again some day soon.

Dawgy...."What makes this country great and presents us with many challenges and opportunities for growth is our diverstiy. Yet you're saying we should deny our diversity and thus ignore those opportunities."

I totally disagree with your point that diversity makes America great.
FREEDOM is what makes America great...Liberty is what makes America great...Freedom of opportunity makes America great.

Your Grandmother and grandfather should be honored for their determination to come here and for their hard,hard work once here. I'm willing to bet that they came here and wanted to be American first before Bavarian-American or Dutch American.

Yes, to celebrate traditions from Motherlands far away is normal and encouraged but to Balkanize ourselves into segments of our nation as equal to our American traditions is to dishonor the very reasons they came here in the first place.

We can look back to the discrimination and horror of slavery in our nation's past but we must look to the War Between The States which began the end to slavery also. We can remember the "no Irish need apply" signs my grandad said that his dad encountered in the 19th C. There were many roadblocks which stood in the way of these immigrants but they were here for FREEDOM LIBERTY OPPORTUNITY and to be AMERICANS first without any hyphens added.

OK if I had diversity and the opportunity it presensts to better understand humankind is ONE of the things that makes this country great would you disagree 100%? Or how about if I said it's what makes us unique?




The war didn't start to end slavery.


So don't add any hyphens if you don't like them but don't tell others how they should define themselves. We all came here (to this planet)with different lessons to learn so why can't we accept people where they are on their human journey?

Hey Phill, I just saw on the learning channel that in some places Germans were put in internment camps inthis country like the Japanese during WW2. Could you send me a few bucks to help me get over the pain of this atrosity? I havn't been the same since finding this out and I'm pretty sure only money will help. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Look...as a whole, blacks in America are ridiculously uneducated. Now why do you think that is? Do you think that it's something genetic? That blacks are inherently dumber than whites? Because I certainly don't think that's the case. So, what, then, could be the explanation? Could it be that they have only had access to a proper education for about 40-50 years?

Bottom line, if you're smart enough to go to college, you should be able to go. White, black, Asian, whatever. Our higher education system has become a money game, and there's too many idiots in college while too many smart kids get left out.

Could it be they "choose" to drop out at a much higher rate? Could it be they're to busy learning street slang over English? Could it be that the life of a thug looks more attractive to them than "real life" because their own race promotes that lifestyle through their music and slang in the name of "culture". Could it be they chosse a life of crime and drugs rather than fitting into the society around them?

Could it be the very reason that Lama uses as "culture" has been "created" through Hip Hop and Rap that promotes they not conform? A falicy that convinces them they have no need or reason to fit into society,but rather defy it?

You see,bussing started in our cities when I was a kid so education would be "equal". So they've had the same oppertunities as anyone else within the urban environment. So you can quit blaming "white society" for it and start blaming those who simply promote not conforming in order to be productive for a change.

JMHO

College loans are available to anyone. If they are smart and WANT to go to college - it's not hard to do.

So blacks are more likely to choose to drop out than whites...




...blacks are less likely to be articulate than whites...



...and this is because of rap music? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



The society around them is crime and drugs.



Every culture is faced with conforming to a set of ideals. Most members of the culture fail to break from them. I take pity on them all, whether it's a black kid selling drugs because that's where Jay-Z said he started making money, or a rich white girl throwing up her lunch to look like Jennifer Aniston.



I disagree wholeheartedly, and I think this is the root opinion rift that starts the whole argument.

Maybe blacks should apply for some student loans and then go to school. The only person that will prevent you from going to college is you.

Phill, Black kids need a Father around to kick them in the ass when they don't get up and go to school. They need someone to make them understandthat its OK to get good grades and that doesn't mean you're trying to be white. Women can't control teenage boys and work to make a living. I think this is the root of the problem.

Bottom line ... if you're smart enough to go to college, then you can go. If they can't figure out how to, then they must not be very smart ... just about anybody can get into some sort of college, one way or another. You just can't expect to attend USC for 6 years.

I'm living proof. I come from a family whose highest education level was "military training". My parents just made enough to support a family of five, but didn't have enough to send me to college. I applied for just about every financial aide program out there. Because my parents were "wealthy" enough to support five kids ... most of the federal grants expected them to contribute a hefty sum of cash (that they couldn't give me), which cut a good deal into the grants I ended up getting. I was white and about as "American" as you could get, so I couldn't apply for any of the scholarships available to most ethnic groups. I took a phonebook sized list of potential scholarships, and found out I was eligible for maybe a dozen of them. I applied for those, and got nothing. My grades weren't absolutely perfect and I wasn't athletic enough to get in on any other sort of scholarship. Basically if I wanted to go to college, I was going to have to pay for it myself, and my only income was a minimum wage job.

In the end, I got just enough in federal grants to barely cover my tuition at the University of Idaho. I was accepted at Ohio State, Wisconsin and Rose Hulman but went to Idaho because it was more affordable. The rest of my living and education expenses I paid using student loans and working part time jobs. Five years later, I put myself through college on my own dime and became the first college graduate of my family in generations. I have some student loan debt, but it's nowhere near the $50k-100k in debt I hear some students get themselves into.

Now if you consider the fact that people could attend cheaper Junior colleges for the first two years as well as live with their parents to avoid most of the "living expenses" associated with college ... just about anyone can go to college if they really wanted to.

Dawgy...do you really believe that the "abolitionists" could have brought about the end of slavery in any reaonable time period without the war? If your point is that the war wasn't fought to end slavery...I agree. The main responsibility Pres. Lincoln had was to preserve the Union above all else...the demise of slavery was a wonderful colateral occurrance.

Did The White Man Go Wrong?

Indian Chief, "Two Eagles," was asked by a white government official, "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage
he's done." The Chief nodded in agreement. The official continued, "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute
and then calmly replied. "When white man found the land, Indians were running it. No taxes, No debt, Plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, Clean Water; women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spent all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."


Then the chief leaned back and smiled. "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."

That's why I'm so proud of my Cherokee heritage!
We had it made man!

<img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Sure they are, now lets hear you explain to the young people who have them that own 30,000, 40,000, 50,000, and 70,000 and can't find a job just how they are going to pay for those loans <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

There are PLENTY of jobs available, problem is - people don't want to work. Big difference.

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> My son would be more than happy to work 50 to 60 hours a week, but there are no jobs available to him within a three hour drive that will pay him enough to even pay his car payment, cell phone, and student loans. (Four years of college, plus another year of getting certified in six subjects <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Tell him to go into sales, 100% commission. If he wants to work like that - he'll make boatloads of money. As I said there are plenty of jobs out there - might not be what he wants, but it's work.

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Like I said NO JOBS <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> I have been in sales as a salesman, sales manager, new car manager, truck manager, GSM, and GM for over 22 years. I had NO education after High School and have worker from 53 to 75 hours a week for over 22 years, and you want me to tell my son to go into that after all the training he has had <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Drop the crack pipe bud <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Some people just won't,don't and or refuse to get it GM.
They're in their own little comfy cacoon and that's all that counts.

Heck,at least he can make $6.85 instead of $5.15 and look at the HELL people raised on here about that! They just don't give a $hit about others GM. As long as they're happy and content.to hell with everyone else,even other Americans

That's why I'm so sick of Religion backing the self-rightious.
WWJD?

Not deprive those less fortunate. That much I'm sure of.
Because I've read the book!
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I agree with you 110 percent bro <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Not meant to offend at all with the following. So you'd rather have him make $6.85 an hour due to Gov't raising minimum wage in a job that's going to depress him over getting a job where if you pur the effort into it you can make $5k-$10k per month? Jobs ARE there, if you want the money, you have to go get it. If you don't mind me asking, what does your son want to do for a living?

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Ya right <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> He has a four year degree in computers and guess what??? There have been THREE jobs listed in his field in the last two years online, and in the papers close to our home (thats three jobs in 2 years) the SOB knew how to hack into all kinds of crap by the time he was 16, but there are just no jobs in his field available in this area. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Then change fields. No offense, really - I truly mean none at all - that is a tough position to be in and I can relate. However, it's time to change fields - go into an outside sales poisiton:

A) you work your butt off you can make money
B) you meet TONS of people in all professions, most jobs are offered NOT through papers or intenet - but through who you know. This could lead to the job he wants.

It's all a means to an end. I LOVED what I did, I miss it like you would not believe - lived my dream for 7 years - the past 2 I had to suck it up and work and I make nice money (PM me and I'll tell ya what can be made, don't want to post it to the world though). I also knew several people I work with through my old job - meeting them and working with them through the old one.

This is what frustrates me, no jobs in his field - tough break - HOWEVER - there are still plenty of jobs he can get out of his field so we are back to square one. He doesn't want to work (not saying he's lazy at all, after all, it's not work if you like it - just because he can't do what he wants doesn't mean he can't work).

It was the belief of many including Lincoln that slavery would eventually become extinct:


link
Secession was caused by the coexistence of a slave-owning South and an increasingly anti-slavery North. Lincoln did not propose federal laws making slavery unlawful where it already existed, but he had, in his 1858 House Divided Speech, envisioned it as being set on "the course of ultimate extinction". Much of the political battle in the 1850s focused on the expansion of slavery into the newly created territories. Both North and South assumed that if slavery could not expand it would wither and die.




As for the reason for the war:
more from the same link

Civil rights and voting rights for blacks were not major issues before the Civil War; they became important afterward during Reconstruction. The issue of maltreatment of slaves was promoted by abolitionists (especially in the novel and play "Uncle Tom's Cabin"), but was not one of the main causes of secession or the war itself. Slavery was at the root of economic, moral and political differences that led to control issues, states' rights and secession of seven states. The creation of an independent Confederate nation in defiance of the United States was the main reason for the war. That is, secession itself triggered the war.

We just keep forgetting that the black race had a war in the south and freed themselves and the white race had nothing to do with it.
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You keep saying that...but I'm not sure what the hell it has to do with anything. No one on this thread has come anywhere near close to insinuating anything otherwise...you're arguing with a percieved perception IMO.