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You guys conveniently forget that both picks are very high in their respective rounds...they are basically a late 3rd and late 4th...if we would have given up #91 (our late 3rd) and #167(our late 5th from the 4, not 3), which essentially would have been the same deal...what would have been your reaction?
a high 4th for an aging player who wants a new contract and would have to be released or dumped for less by his team is not a good deal...if you're willing to pay a CB his last big contract why didn't we pursue Dunta Robinson?
Also, this draft has a lot more talented juniors entering...a high 4th in this draft is worth much more than ever, you get 2nd to 3rd round talent of other drafts there...a Calloway or Mike Johnson, guys who can start for 10 years on your team will be there....was it really worth 2 years of S.Brown?
Sorry to be the party pooper but this deal and esp. the players do not excite me long term....yeah, we improved for next year but that's it....now we most probably won't draft an elite CB talent like Haden or any 2nd rounder further delaying our REAL CB-upgrade
More stop gaps, yay...let the cheerleaders party...if anybody on here thinks guys like Brown or Fujita will play at the level they played the past seasons after signing their retirement-contract here with us then they are in for a shock
#gmstrong
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This trade doesn't affect DQ at all. Gocong will play outside.
I did not post that simply because of the position the new guy may or may not play.
I think we were looking to move DQ before acquiring Gocong. Gocong frees up others to move inside - if Gocong does not move inside himself.
Now that we spent our 4th and a 5th...we have added motivation to trade DQ and re-coup that 4th.
DQ is not a 3-4 guy and now he wants to get "paid".
I believe he is the next to go...unless we switch to a 4-3.
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Wait, let me get this straight. You think Kyle Calloway is a 2nd or 3rd round player. 
Sheldon Brown isn't going to get paid nearly as much as Dunta got, who by the way is now the 2nd highest paid corner in the NFL.
Dude, we have 3 3rd rounders, and 3 5th's. And we just added two starters. You think that anything we gave up was going to be a starter? No.
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You do remember we still have 10 draft picks right?
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I like this deal. How does this trade alter the draft for the browns? I mean the acquisition of Sheldon Brown could mean that CB is not an immediate need. I suppose we could still draft Haden but it seems we need an immediate starter type of player as we still have holes to fill. I could see the browns going tackle with the number seven. Is seven to high for Earl Thomas? I would think a good safety would be available in the second. This definately opens up a few more possibilities.
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You do remember we still have 10 draft picks right?
You do realize he's just trying to argue for the sake of argument 
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I don't know that adding Brown really changes our draft needs at all. If Berry is there we can take him and not have to find a Corner to start right now. If Berry is gone and Haden is the guy our front office likes then we can take him and move Brown over to Safety. Either way we are taking care of 2 needs. Admittedly Brown is on the wrong side of his career age wise but he still has a couple good years in him and it gives us time to find a younger replacement. We also didn't give up a whole lot...No matter what Django says. 
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Dude, I didn't want to go this route but you deserve a wake up call...
Over on your site you have written some pretty stupid stuff all around about this draft in the last weeks, stuff I have debated you on and been proven right...you're young, I get it and for your age you know some football...but it's starting to show that you haven't watched football with brains for enough years ...you're young though, you'll maybe get there
Your immaturity is also showing piling up with the homers to bash me ON HERE while being a normal poster in the VIP lounge
Calloway and Mike Johnson are pretty much consensus Top 5, most have them Top3 at their position (RT,G)....those guys drop every draft and you can probably get them in the 4th THIS draft (that was my point...and yes, I consider a RT and G that I think will start for your team 10years worthy being labeled 2nd to 3rd roudn talent))
Wanna make a side bet? Who will have a better career (more starts, accolades etc)...Mike Johnson who will be a 3rd to 4th rounder or your boy Damian Williams....your in?
#gmstrong
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a 4th and a 5th and Alex Hall,,,, damn that seems cheap?
Cheap? I wouldn't say cheap. I'd say fair.
Hall was a spare part slated to be a backup. Brown and Gocong are starters.
When push comes to shove, we just traded a 4th, a 5th, and some extra money added to Brown's contract for two SHORT-TERM starters.
I'm good with the trade. Anytime you can get a starting-caliber player with a mid-round pick you're doing well.
From the Eagles viewpoint, they like this trade as well. They moved two players not in their plans for some picks that could turn into starters down the road. They didn't have the immediate need that we did.
Fair trade for both teams. It's no block-buster by any means but from our standpoint it made good sense.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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you have written some pretty stupid stuff all around about this draft in the last weeks, stuff I have debated you on and been proven right...
how can you be proven right about a draft that hasn't happened yet? just morbid curiousity i suppose.
also, I agree with you on Mike Johnson. I think he will be an outstanding OG in the NFL.
#gmstrong
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stuff I have debated you on and been proven right...
Like what? You already know how prospects will do in the NFL?
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Wanna make a side bet? Who will have a better career (more starts, accolades etc)...Mike Johnson who will be a 3rd to 4th rounder or your boy Damian Williams....your in?
Actually damian williams is my guy, I'm not sure if Deep has been pimping him or not.
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Browns pull off smart trade
April, 2, 2010
Apr 2
12:44
By James Walker
Unless the Cleveland Browns got extremely lucky, chances are they would not have landed two starters in this year's NFL draft in the fourth and fifth rounds.
Cornerback Sheldon Brown, acquired in a trade from the Eagles, fills an immediate need for the Browns.
For that reason, Cleveland made a very smart trade Friday with the Philadelphia Eagles to land veteran cornerback Sheldon Brown and outside linebacker Chris Gocong. Both players can be penciled in as starters in Cleveland's 3-4 defense.
The Browns shipped backup linebacker Alex Hall and a fourth- and fifth-round pick to the Eagles, according to ESPN's Adam Schefter. Cleveland has plenty of draft picks to spare, particularly in the middle rounds, and still has 10 selections in this month's NFL draft.
Brown, who likely will get an extension with Cleveland, fills a major void at cornerback and moves the struggling Brandon McDonald out of the starting lineup. Gocong is a player Browns coach Eric Mangini liked coming out of college and has starting experience with Philadelphia, tying Gocong with current Browns general manager Tom Heckert.
The trade for Brown likely impacts Cleveland's draft plans in the first round.
The Browns are no longer desperate for a cornerback with the No. 7 overall pick, where Florida's Joe Haden was a potential target. Tennessee safety Eric Berry definitely makes more sense at this point if Cleveland has a choice between the two players.
I don't think it takes Haden out of the mix at all, as Brown is 31. However, I do fully agree that it gives us the ability to choose different players as well as offering the flexibility to move down the draft if we wish.
I like the trade.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I don't know that adding Brown really changes our draft needs at all. If Berry is there we can take him and not have to find a Corner to start right now. If Berry is gone and Haden is the guy our front office likes then we can take him and move Brown over to Safety. Either way we are taking care of 2 needs.
Admittedly Brown is on the wrong side of his career age wise but he still has a couple good years in him and it gives us time to find a younger replacement. We also didn't give up a whole lot...No matter what Django says.
I agree totally if Berry should somehow drop to 7 I would be ecstatic. I hadn't thought about Brown moving to safety, that would be good too.
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If Berry isnt there I wouldnt mind us taking the Texas S Earl Thomas I think this kid is going to be very tough...maybe try and trade down and pick him up....
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Only a fool would argue against this trade.
Two good starters for a 4th, 5th and Alex Hall? At worst, we traded possibly two starters for a good starter. At best, we traded for a good pass rusher and a very solid corner for three nobodies.
you had a good run Hank.
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also, I agree with you on Mike Johnson. I think he will be an outstanding OG in the NFL.
...and we just punted a pick to get a player of his caliber for "hopefully" 2 more years out of S.Brown
Listen, normally I'm all for picks (esp mid-rounders) for decent vets trades...I applauded both the C.Williams and Rogers trades...why? because the draft back then sucked at DL and we got much more than we could have landed in those rounds....
so what's different now you ask? This draft is MUCH deeper in talent, thanks to many more very talented juniors entering and adding to an already good senior class....I and many draftniks consider a high 4th as valuable as a late 2nd-high 3rd in other drafts....also looking at numerous boards: there are PLENTY of prospects around pick 100 that fit our needs and, yes Deep, ABSOLUTELY have starting material potential (and I'm not talking about project like potential)...guys you can quote me on: Calloway, Johnson, Spieviey, Fox, L.Jospeh and many more
I'm a draft nut and I've never seen this much talent around pick 100....take a guy like CB Spievey-Iowa.....everybody says he's like Godfrey (also Iowa prospect 2 years ago), same talent....guy is considered at best a late 3rd to early 4th right now...Godfrey went #67 overall in 2008 and has started for 2 years now in Carolina....I'd rather have a Godfrey for 4+ years than S.Brown for 1 or 2 (if he plays up to his contract)
As I said in my 1st reaction to the trade...it isn't a horrible one...but it doesn't make much sense for me long term
#gmstrong
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All Pro
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I forgot Alex Hall was still on the team.
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Only a fool would argue against this trade.
Two good starters for a 4th, 5th and Alex Hall? At worst, we traded possibly two starters for a good starter. At best, we traded for a good pass rusher and a very solid corner for three nobodies.
I will correct it for you:
At worst, we traded possibly two starters (age22-24, under control 4+years) for a good starter (age 31, for who knows how long? 1,2?max3 years?). At best, we traded for a good pass rusher (which he has proven NOT to be, sorry, 4 years and 4sacks is enough track record for me) and a very solid (but againg) corner for three nobodies. (Funny, Hall is a nobody...he got almost as many big plays in his 100something snaps in this league than Gocong got in 3 years worth of starts...yet HE is the nobody with no upisde in this very fair "equation", priceless )
#gmstrong
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Isn't adams about 100 years old now? LOL actually 34 years old 
Last edited by Damanshot; 04/02/10 01:45 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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also, I agree with you on Mike Johnson. I think he will be an outstanding OG in the NFL.
...and we just punted a pick to get a player of his caliber for "hopefully" 2 more years out of S.Brown
2 points of disagreement here.
1. I still think NFL GMs are smart enough to not let Mike Johnson fall into the 4th round. Just my opinion, but it's how I feel.
2. We still have 2 5th round picks. If we feel there is someone that we really want to get that is there in the 4th, we have the ammunition to get it done.
Also, I think you are overvaluing the mid-section of the draft while ignoring the effects this trade has on the top rounds.
Sheldon Brown gives us more flexibilty in our picks. We do not HAVE to draft a CB now. If one falls to us we love, great. If not, focus on other areas. It allows us to get closer to a true BPA approach which is what I prefer (noone runs a full BPA, it's always weighted somewhat with need and value).
#gmstrong
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Giving up 4th and 5th rounds picks (and still having 10 other picks) for two players who you know will play is not a bad thing. Even if one of those players will play his current position for only two more years (at least). Lot's of 4th and 5th round picks won't even be in the league in two years.
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Quote:
Only a fool would argue against this trade.
Two good starters for a 4th, 5th and Alex Hall? At worst, we traded possibly two starters for a good starter. At best, we traded for a good pass rusher and a very solid corner for three nobodies.
I will correct it for you:
At worst, we traded possibly two starters (age22-24, under control 4+years) for a good starter (age 31, for who knows how long? 1,2?max3 years?). At best, we traded for a good pass rusher (which he has proven NOT to be, sorry, 4 years and 4sacks is enough track record for me) and a very solid (but againg) corner for three nobodies. (Funny, Hall is a nobody...he got almost as many big plays in his 100something snaps in this league than Gocong got in 3 years worth of starts...yet HE is the nobody with no upisde in this very fair "equation", priceless )
So you're saying you can invoke fantasy into the worse case scenario but I cannot into the best case?
Again, worst case, 2 starters for Brown. Best case, 3 no bodies for 2 very quality starters, one of which is only 26.
you had a good run Hank.
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It isn't...but you're pretty much the last guy I expect to get it 
Since the big picture here is obviously escaping you, let me spell it out!
With the signing of Delhomme, Goceng, Fujita, Pashos and Brown, it is obvious the Browns are infusing veteran leadership into this very young team. Something the Browns have been devoid in up to this point in most areas. Having veterans with a winning backgrounds in the NFL is something that will make the youngsters stand up and take note.
There needs to be some leadership familiar with the system that the Browns plan to install and it appears the Browns are addressing such needs by these moves. All of these players "fit in" to what the Browns will be selling their young players and draftees.
What this will accomplish is a far easier transition to a new system by having these players on board. As starters and in depth positions combined, these players will help teach, lead and mold this team into the vision our new FO has in mind.
Whether people like these additions or do not, they go a long way at addressing a far more easy transition and hopefully a shorter timetable for success overall for the Browns.
Is there more to come? There are other areas of the team lacking such strong veteran leadership that may be addressed. The rest of the book is still unwritten at this juncture.
Link; PitDAWG 
Another thing I like is if you look at the players other than Delhomme (and you have to pay your starting QB money), we aren't giving up high draft picks or selling the farm to accomplish infusing this veteran leadership.
If you look at how the Patriots were built it's almost a carbon copy to this juncture.
Hopefully now that it's spelled out, you can see the big picture rather than trying to nit-pick and second guess everything bit by bit. But I doubt it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Point taken....2 minor additions:
1. We still have 3 5ths
2. I think we could have gotten a starting caliber CB with our 2nd too...I don't see it as Haden-or-bust....of course every need covered with a decent vet allows more flexibility overall in the draft...but not so much in the 1st imho...it would have restricted our 2nd rounder though, if we would not have picked Haden, that's right
#gmstrong
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Here's some perspective from a Eagles fan. "So let's understand this properly... the Eagles traded one SAM who couldn't cover an opposing TE and a starting CB for another SAM who can't cover an opposing TE and two mid-low level draft picks...??
WTF are they smoking down at Eagles' HQ?!?!?!
I liked Chris Gocong, but he was horribly miscast; he was a successful pass-rushing DE in college, but too small to play that position in the NFL. He's a tailor-made rushing outside LB in a 3-4 defense, which the Eagles don't use -- so why on Earth did they draft him (let alone draft him in the 3rd round)?? They tried to make him into a SAM, but that was idiotic; you don't take a guy who has always played with his hand on the ground and expect him to cover the likes of Chris Cooley, Jason Witten and other receiving TEs. The guy couldn't cover bread with mayo.
Sorry, Eagles' brass, but you got fleeced by your old friends, Tom Heckert and Mike Holmgren.
Kudos to the Browns for this trade."http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...wn-from-eagles/
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Otay.. Now I've lost track of the picture here.. can someone list what picks we have remaining?
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Quote:
With the signing of Delhomme, Goceng, Fujita, Pashos and Brown, it is obvious the Browns are infusing veteran leadership into this very young team. Something the Browns have been devoid in up to this point in most areas. Having veterans with a winning backgrounds in the NFL is something that will make the youngsters stand up and take note.
There needs to be some leadership familiar with the system that the Browns plan to install and it appears the Browns are addressing such needs by these moves. All of these players "fit in" to what the Browns will be selling their young players and draftees.
What this will accomplish is a far easier transition to a new system by having these players on board. As starters and in depth positions combined, these players will help teach, lead and mold this team into the vision our new FO has in mind.
Whether people like these additions or do not, they go a long way at addressing a far more easy transition and hopefully a shorter timetable for success overall for the Browns.
Man Pit, I've heard this song last year....and I mean the EXACT same song....Mangini bringing in HIS guys etc...our roster was significantly OLDER last year....and now I have to read the same BS again....just say you hope it pans out...but don't even try to rationalize it....I'm fed up of those feel good offseason fluff from management, media and posters
Watson, Fujita and Brown aren't very good players (I'd go Watson below AVG, Fujita AVG and Brown sligthly above AVG)...and their best football is over (at least for the defenders)....they get their retirement contracts from us and we must hope they man up to their signing under those millions
I still fail to see how we got ANY better long term right now...we got stop gaps, just like last year and the year before, and the year before....last year it was Barton, StClair, Womack, Elam and Royal...for me only the names have changed not their talent level...I had this exact same discussion with the whole board 1 year ago at this time...homers telling me how guys like Barton, StClair, Womack and Elam will improve our team and teach the younger players...blahblah bla
#gmstrong
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Wouldn't you say that the veteran players did teach the younger players last year?
By the end of the season (after a craptastic start) our younger guys were much improved and we had won four straight games after everyone had thought our team had quit on the coach.
Also, Watson is better than Royal. Fujita is better than Barton, Pashos is better than Womack/St. Clair, and Brown is better than Poteat. We've upgraded positions while gaining draft picks. Doesn't seem like a bad plan to me.
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You guys conveniently forget that both picks are very high in their respective rounds...they are basically a late 3rd and late 4th...if we would have given up #91 (our late 3rd) and #167(our late 5th from the 4, not 3), which essentially would have been the same deal...what would have been your reaction?
No, they are a fourth and a fifth no matter how hard you try to twist it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Last season it was Barton is better than Davis, Elam is better than Jones, Royal is a much better blocker than Winslow, StClair is better than Shaffer, Womack is better than Friedman
Go punt it....I don't believe this crap anymore...while I think they ARE or at least should be "better" (simply because you can't possibly have a worse professional sports team offseaon than we had last year)....it doesn't mean we are good or even AVG at those "upgraded" positions...you get my point? Upgrading from horrible to bad (Watson to Royal ie) is still BAD, you know
Have we solidified any position for 2011? I don't see it...wes till need a QB, WR, RB, TE, RT, G, ILB, DE, OLB, SS, FS and CB
Good luck
#gmstrong
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You crack me up sometimes. It takes some time to sell your guys on the system and get it installed. As a result we won the last four games in a row. You must really be a hater! You are trying to compare Heckert and Holmgen with their decades of experience to Mangini in regards to bringing in veterans and building a franchise? Talk about making me throw up in my mouth a little bit!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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BS.
The Browns were not a young team last year,and they won't be again this year.
Veteran leadership is nothing more than a buzzword for old and damned near washed up.
I have no idea about Gocong.He must be an upgrade to Wimbley,who I believe to be the worse OLB in the entire league.
If they can't get a deal done with Brown,then it willbe a waste of a draft pick.
Let me ask this question to everyone;
If trading midround picks for veterans is such a great idea,why isn't every team doing it?
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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If trading midround picks for veterans is such a great idea,why isn't every team doing it?
The Raiders and Redskins have done it a lot
#gmstrong
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Point taken....2 minor additions:
1. We still have 3 5ths
2. I think we could have gotten a starting caliber CB with our 2nd too...I don't see it as Haden-or-bust....of course every need covered with a decent vet allows more flexibility overall in the draft...but not so much in the 1st imho...it would have restricted our 2nd rounder though, if we would not have picked Haden, that's right
ok, we are in somewhat agreement on this then.
1. thanks for the correction on the # of 5th round picks (even better).
2. and that is why I had said top rounds. I had thought we had to get out of this draft either Haden (1st round) or Ghee (2nd round). Now, if we don't get either, we are still okay and can focus on the talented players that drop.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 587
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 587 |
I was about to post the same thing...lol.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,740
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,740 |
It's oh so simple. We just hired a new GM who is installing a new system and we need some players experienced in that system to help in that regard. Let me not only ask you a question but also make a suggestion.
How many quality franchises DID NOT use this method when beginning a re-build?
Try looking at New England in their first year under Belichick. You'll see the exact same method used.
Sometimes history can teach us something if we take the time to actually look at how top notch franchises were built. Or we can just rant on with no clue of how successful this method has played itself out in the past with "top notch football guys" at the helm.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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we got one starter and one potential starter and STILL OWN OUR TOP 5 PICKS
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,740 |
Quote:
I was about to post the same thing...lol.
In "most places" I've visited, those who have followed the game over a long period of time embrace it and are excited about it. But I'm getting about what I expected here.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 786
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 786 |
Quote:
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!
DITTO!!!!!!!!
He is horrible! 
PS. AWESOME FREAKIN TRADE!!!!!! Philly got hosed and for a change...we are the hoser! 
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Posts: 9,864
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 |
This is one of those rare occasions where both teams benefit from a trade. Sheldon Brown was a horrible distraction for the Eagles all last offseason and I have little doubt he would be this year. Alex Hall was not a good fit for the 3-4, he never was and he will be a backup situational pass rusher for the Eagles much like he was here. I am not all that thrilled to give up 2 draft picks, but man Sheldon Brown and Gocong type players would RARELY be found that late in the draft and in fact neither were even drafted that late.
The theme Holmgren and Heckert are showing us is that we will never be drafting for need in the first round. We had gaping holes at QB and CB and both positions, albeit not star power have been addressed so that we don't "have" to take anyone if we don't like them in round 1. We are tipping our draft strategy but not in a way where anyone will be able to know what our pick will be. Now we have two starting quality CB's on our roster in Wright and Brown.
I don't know much about Brown or Gocong other than I know Mangini really likes Gocong...which in turn makes me like him, especially for a 4th round pick. We are going to have to resign Brown and that concerns me a little bit given that he is 31 years old. I am guessing Heckert knows Brown well, but then it makes me wonder why his deal never got done in Philly??
All in all, Philly gets rid of guys they couldn't use (Gocong) and didn't want to pay (Brown) and get two late draft picks for them. On the other hand we get two guys who provide an immediate upgrade and basically two starter caliber players for a 4th a 5th and a guy in Hall who would be lucky to not get cut this summer.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Trying to Trade for Gocong
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