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Watson is actually a downgrade from Heiden in both blocking and in hands. He is faster and actually can stay healthy. This was a positive signing but he is average at best and no where close to his draft hype.
Watson is just as good as Heiden with his hands and is worse with his blocking. However, Watson is healthier and younger, both of which are huge positives.
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Pashos is pencilled in as our starter at RT. The guy has concrete feet and he is a leaner. the only reason he is considered any type of upgrade is because St Claire was so horrible.
Pashos is not a good pass blocker. Neither was St. Clair, Shaffer or Tucker before him. However, Pashos is a mauling run blocker, much better than St. Clair and Shaffer and on par with Ryan Tucker.
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Wimbley trade was better than the Quinn trade but it was no earth shattering deal. It was foolish to trade Quinn when we did. Starters go down in camp and preseason, it wouldnt have hurt anything to have held onto him.
What if Quinn got hurt? Why wait to incorporate a new guy into the system? Why hang on to a guy who you have no intentions of keeping?
I for one am glad they moved on quickly from DA/Quinn.
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Brian Daboll is still OC.
Not nearly as big of a problem as you make it seem.
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We have the worst situation at QB of any team in football.
right side of the line still sucks
I have no problems, although I'd say that the right side of the line is average, not that it sucks.
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DL has been downgraded with the loss of Corey
Williams didn't fit in anyway.
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Safety is downgraded with the loss of poole
Can't stay healthy. If he could, it would be a serious downgrade.
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Linebacker I believe is downgraded with the loss of Hall who btw played his ass off anytime he was given a shot. Mangini just did not like the guy.
Hall was an average linebacker who was outplayed by Marcus Benard. He had no future in this defense and likely has no future in the NFL. Besides, Fujita is better than Barton and Gocong is better than Wimbley.
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As I said before I hate giving out grades this early because it isnt a finished product but moves made so far have been ok or bad.
Signing Delhomme to a 14 mil contract when noone wanted the guy is the big signing and one of the dumbest moves this organization has ever made. I just dont get it at all.
The moves they made are decent. The real moves come in the draft and that's where the team is going to take their direction either towards becoming a good team or going down the same path.
you had a good run Hank.
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Just an aside .....
CBS Sportsline has Hall listed as a DE for the Eagles. Maybe a 4-3 DE will be his calling in life. Maybe not.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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. not about H/H...but it's ok....join the pointless hate-parade, it's always more fun to pile on then to start thinking, right? 
The funny thing is Dj it's about your hatred for Gini.
To the point that it has become obsessive in your posts.
I highly doubt there is any "hate wagon" against you. Certainly not from me. But your obsessive nitpicking is beneath you.
You do know a lot about football but at this time your so obsessed in your hatred for Gini that you go to great lengths to degrade him at any possible openning.
Some on here, including myself have addressed some of your questions and you simply ignore them.
I would simply like for you to use what you know about the game more and share that insted of continualy obsessing on a subject where you go so far you get to the point of grasping at straws.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I really thank you for at least trying a normal debat but you make some very questionable assessments of players...
Gocong better than Wimbley? Guess that's why on the market Wimbley netted a 3rd and Gocong was a throw in (ask every Eagles-fan, nobody thinks he's worth more than a late rounder with his failed production and 1 year on his contract left) That's waaay out there considering the compensation AND actual production of both players..in my book both are way below AVG anyway but there's no way Gocong is an "upgrade" to Wimbley
Mourg is spot on folks...and for the record, I don't even see this offseason as bad as he does but he's right.....we, agaim ,only made "lateral moves"...the only player that we got that is league AVG is S.Brown...and he's a 31yo CB, who has already peaked and just signed is retirement contract
on Ryan: fact remains his D allowed 5.8yds/play which is worse than any D under Romeo...little talent? According to this board we upgraded every year there, lol...didn't Mangini bring in Coleman, Mosley, Elam, Barton, Trusnik, Poteat + 3 rookies ON TOP of keeping the better guys he inherited? How did they have less talent than Romeo then? and why did they have the worst Browns-D in 5 years (prolly more, just including the Romeo-era) if Ryan did a good job?....obviously somethings fishy here and I think it's your assessment of either Mangini's "system" or Ryans superb work...I happen to think it's a little bit of both
Mourg's also right on the "timing" of the trades, although I think Quinn was ok, because it would have caused much more distraction if we would have hold on to him...yes, we could have gotten more (not much though) but I was ok with moving him NOW...my problem is teh C.Williams trade...we gave him away for a 5th-7th SWAP, which is basically a 6th from a value standpoint....we got a 6th for Louis freaking Leonard...Lions got a steal. Would have gotten much more if we just waited for some 4-3 team to lose a starting DT
I agree with your last sentence though:
"The real moves come in the draft and that's where the team is going to take their direction either towards becoming a good team or going down the same path. "
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Lol, my obsession is Browns-football....and if I see a moron calling the shots for my Browns I will make waves and call him out. Overall (this includes "social skills" and connecting with players, not effing them off) he is the most incompetent HC I've ever seen the Browns coach...I don't care how much he thinks he knows about X and Os and how good he is at selling this to average guys like Lerner...but if his players don't like him and don't play hard for him (and the history for this is long enough for me now) everything else becomes a moot point
You really had to observe him and his sideline body language in the last games in NY when they choked away a given PO-spot to know what I mean....that's when and WHY I called him out the moment Lerner hired him
I don't hate the guy, he might even be a decent guy to drink a beer with....I hate that the guy is coaching the Cleveland Browns and I expect and want better for this org...that's my beef
H/H is another story...way to early as I said but I, like Mourg, am not a huge fan so far with FA...but the Draft is way more important anyway for us. I have high hopes for Heckert...I only fear his 3rd round draft track record....the Eagles were one of the teams who always drafted for "value" (as in projection) in that round and consistently failed...this has becaome a running gag for Eagles fans who'd like to trade their 3rd rounders for 5th rounders because that's their "money round" and they pick solid prospect ywho actually produced in College and not only jumped high, ran fast or are strong....that's why I don't like some of the visits of mid round undeachievers....I really hope we only waste 1 of the 3 3rds on a guy like that
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but if his players don't like him and don't play hard for him
I have to rant on this because I could never understand why this is a factor. I'm refering to people who say this in general so not you directly. Why do players bitch about coaches? I could never understand that, you're an athlete geting paid millions of dollars to play a sport you love. Their lives could be a hell of a lot worse especially given this economy. Sorry Django it's just athletes in general with that mentality irk me 
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I get where you're coming from...it should be a given I agree...but football is a little different to Baseball o rmost other sports....it's much more physical and brutal: you can have all the talent in the world but if you are not motivated or even DE-motivated by your Coach, you'll never be a consistent winner even with All-Pros running around.....it take much more than talent in football to win, that's also applicable to otehr sports but football the most imho...do you know any other professioanl sport with as many underachievers? I don't...
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I get where you're coming from...it should be a given I agree...but football is a little different to Baseball or most other sports....it's much more physical and brutal:
Sorry for derailing this thread. It's just athletes in general that make me mad. I won't even get started on how baseball players contracts are ridiculous. How does a guy like A-Rod get paid 5 times more than a RB like Adrian Peterson who constantly takes a beating?
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you can have all the talent in the world but if you are not motivated or even DE-motivated by your Coach, you'll never be a consistent winner even with All-Pros running around.....it take much more than talent in football to win, that's also applicable to otehr sports but football the most imho...
I completely understand it's just geting paid millions would be enough motivation for me. 
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do you know any other professioanl sport with as many underachievers? I don't...
You're right, however you could make a case for the NBA
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I was thinking while writing a response to the question of Hank Fraley and the hiring of the new center... why I was feeling uncertainty and distrust.
The answer I came up with was centered around the mistrust I felt towards the FO. I don't think this mistrust is unwarranted. Telling a player they are safe with the team, and then cutting them abruptly is a serious sign of dishonesty and disrespect within an organization.
I am curious if the rest of you have felt this way as well or have any thoughts about the way the FO handles its operations.
I think there is evidence to be examined for Mangini over the past year.
To a lesser extent I do not think Holmgren or Heckert can be appropriately examined.
I worry that the abrupt and dishonest release of Fraley is indicative of an FO that is not committed to honest and just treatment of its players. Which will serve to disenfranchise and poison the team as it moves forward.
Time will tell if this pattern continues with the new FO installations. I worry that Mangini will not be able to transition towards higher standards of personal conduct: given his history of front office power plays in 2009.
As an afterthought: I see obvious improvements by subtraction with the removal of Dawn "Ultimatum" Aponte. What a dishonorable spectacle that was.
Kingcob, excellent post. I have taken the time to read all responses as well and am grateful kingcob opened this.
I am on a long distrust with this team since 1999 of a lot of inept front offices employing rookie GMs and lackluster coaches and I can rest assured many here feel my pain as Browns fans. But Now I am one to say how excited we went from the criminally incompetent to Holmgren...but king Cob again brings up a point well taken and others as well in their replies is TRUST. Do we trust Holmgren, Mangini and Heckert.
Last year I had absolute stone zero trust in Mangini Kokinis kneejerk hires. The offseason and bonehead drafts and the quick dismissal of GM( Mangini yes man) Kokinis did little to add to the trust. Replacing Winslow with Royal, Scheaffer with St. Clair, Edwards with nothing, a franchise QB Sanchez for a bunch of Jet castoffs and a late first rounder center...Viekune...the list goes on but I won't..So getting Holmgren I hoped would turn the page on stupidity.
But we go back to trust..He keeps Mangini...I think OK but how about Mangini hate on Quinn, what will we do how will Mike evaluate our QBs, who had poor blocking, a punch drunk old RB, no wrs, or TEs and another rookie OC.
Holmgren states publicly he wants or needs two years 32 starts of film before he can evaluate a QB, and skoffs what has quinn had 12?
So I think QB Guru will help Quinn develop...and pfft we trade him for balogna. Trust starts escaping.
We dump DA, ok he proved he stunk and had a huge contract...We sign Seneca Wallace...ok he cost us a nothing #7 pick and we got an improvement over Ratfink( Ratcliff). then in a mind numbing move Holmgren signs for 7 mil the washed up Delhomme and there goes trust. a hugely rash decision.
We dump Fraley, a very serviceable backup at both guard and ceter and get a palooka in the manner of St. Clair for Scheaffer.
We dump wimbley for a late #3 and I think, while I NEVER defended wimbley as a star he was at least serviceable and Gocong is nothing better.
I love the addition of Brown at Corner and the TE as our two best moves by far and i trust them.
I enjoyed the article at profootballtalk.com about Holmgrens rashness and their mocking of the Quinn trade for nothing and the accurate assessment had mike waited he may have gotten more for Quinn and landed McNabb for the Browns in a really Big Move.
I find it curious to say we do not need veteran help at WR, a position of SCREAMING need.
So, do I trust Holmgren. His words..not really. he did NOT by his own words give Quinn a fair shake. he was rash to rush the Delhomme deal. Dumping Fraley for the chump we picked up and getting Gokong and dumping Wimbley cannot be argued as any improvement. Had Holmgren shown patience and landed mcnabb I would be overjoyed.
Dumping Wimbley, Quinn, Fraley and having Gokong, The out of the NFL center, and the 24ints in last 12 starts Delhomme requires me to play pretend that these are improvements. I have to agree the draft not in the hands of Mangini/Kokinis and having Heckert and holmgren run the show gives me FAR, infinite more hope than the way Dumb and Dumber conducted last offseason. But Holmgren has had a VERY uneven off season. he improved CB,RT,TE he added more SLOW ve LBs and add that to the crew of the slow Jet veteran LBs. He released a capable backup center/g for a white elephant and released DA and conducted a Horrid trade of Quinn for nothing and we have two rummies at QB and added NO HELP a WR.
Heckert better have a monster draft because there are lots of holes.
lI will add to your excellent post, Holmgren set the table for a PR disaster THIS season. And Mangini is on the Hot seat as well. Quinn has the table set for a sterling campaign in Denver while we are bereft at the position. We have a mediocre(at best) OC, the WORST, by FAR, set of WRS in the NFL and QBs of dubious capabilities to get them the ball. We added a decent CB to the defense but Fujita/Gokong only add two more slow lbs to a crew with already vets with feet in quicksand. Add that is that if these new QBs go up in flames and Philly goes of the rails( trading McNabb with all new top Offensive stars was INSANE) we may see what would be a fine set up. Andy Ried in Cleveland next year. mangini is dead man walking and I think he has his knife ready for the back of any player that does not "buy In" to his philosophy.
Sorry i was wordy and I believe that Holmgren must EARN trust and while i started with wild hopes, many of his moves have been rash head scratchers. still that is a HUGE improvement of deliriously incompetent. 
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You know Joe, I think everybody gets your point now..It is your OPINION and the fact is..Quinn sucked and he is gone! We received far more than he is worth and for that I am thankful. QB's like him get released and signed to practice squads often so this should be no shock.. Righfully so. So now you can keep crying over spilt milk or accept the fact he is gone and you are not in charge. You are not going to convince anyone that you are right about anything no matter how much you force your Opinion down other people throats. That's just the way it is..so I am asking you to please quit cluttering these boards with your agenda and keep in mind it is your opinion and move on. If you can't get over the fact that Quinn is now the enemy..you can choose to join him or just accept the reality of the situation, but the fact is he is gone and you can't change that. But enough is enough already. I wish he was anything better than Mediocre, but the kid just doesn't have it. Now you have an agenda for Mangini and Holmgren and you come across as a know it all..but more importantly it looks like your whole vendetta stems from your love for a bad football player. I'm sure Brady is thankful and if Ryan Leaf had the same kind of support, he would have been thankful too. JMHO
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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H/H is another story...way to early as I said but I, like Mourg, am not a huge fan so far with FA...but the Draft is way more important anyway for us.
Here we go then...We should hear from u about this draft in THREE YEARS...Not 3 WEEKS...YEARS...
Go Browns!!!
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H/H is another story...way to early as I said but I, like Mourg, am not a huge fan so far with FA...but the Draft is way more important anyway for us.
Here we go then...We should hear from u about this draft in THREE YEARS...Not 3 WEEKS...YEARS...
Exactly...........this is a pointless thread considering the off season hasn't been completed yet........much less a FO who's team hasn't played a game.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Since these are your true feelings, had you been a New England fan, you would have been harping out these very same words the first two or three years that Billickic was at New England. Not saying Gini is the next Billichik, even though with MH taking over much of Gini's duties so he can strictly devote all of his time to coaching, I think he has that potential, because he's starting off using very similar tactics that you seem to despise so much. Seriously, I do believe some of your assertions and refusal to look at some of the logical answers that have been given to you is beneath you because you have let your hatred for Gini cloud your judgement. But that's just my opinion. However, from reading how you try to attack his every move, it's pretty obvious. Fact is RAC only won 4 games in 98 with BE and KW2. Mangini won five without them. And that was while he was installing his new system without our two biggest O weapons. It is what it is Bud 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Seriously, I do believe some of your assertions and refusal to look at some of the logical answers that have been given to you is beneath you because you have let your hatred for Gini cloud your judgement.
Ok...it's certainly not to much to ask for exact quotes of those "logical answers"...I'm obviously either blind or too dumb to see them, so spell them out...and just for the record: no, "Mangini hired great assistants" or "He got rid of BE and KW" are not "logical answers"....they are at best disguised excuses or mere cheerleadish apologetics
You've all fallen for the Mangini-rhetoric: process, have faith blabla...football ain't religion, I don't need no faith or "good guys"....I have 2 eyes and a brain and every play is pretty easy to assess...guys either get their job done or not, and if they dont more often than do, then you start looking at the guys who trot them out and signed them....it's really not rocket science. I could care less if they "buyed" into his whatever system....if the result is 4.3yds/play on Offense and 5.8yds on D, then they suck and the guys who let them play are either to incompetent to find better players or overvalue what they are trotting out...McFly? anyone
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Fact is RAC only won 4 games in 98 with BE and KW2. Mangini won five without them. And that was while he was installing his new system without our two biggest O weapons.
It is what it is Bud
...and fact is RAC won 6 games without Rogers, Thomas (and a much less talented roster overall) his 1st season...so? Fact also is, that Mangini's team was worse in Offense-Defense stat than any Crennel team...that's as bottom line as it gets
It is what it is, right? Me thinks you guys refute to see what IS
@DnD
go link this board to nfl.com and their standings and stats pages then because it's useless...assessments AFTER the fact is easy...the whole fun of talking about FA-signings, scouting, drafting IS the projection into gameday influence...for better or worse
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Loyaldog, at the official Browns site the Mike Holmgren interview was posted and when given a specific question on Quinn he finally gave the answer I always knew was true. He said your coach and QB have {like each other} and THAT was the reason I have always thought. yes, I can rant and rave about how we got jobbed but MH was put in a corner and Mangini wanted QUINN OUT. Now Custer( Mangini) put his flag on the hill of two popgun QBs as the front office goes begging in the face of lagging ticket sales to the fans and Holmgren finally leaks what i have always felt. I agree now that we got so little for Quinn is not the point but the real point is Mangini wanted him gone no matter what. I will add my making fun of Hillis begs the real point that it is not his fault in being the sand covered ice cream cone in the trade of Quinn. The fault in not the player and my bad for mocking him. I really hope he turns out to be a fine player. But what i hate is I hate denver. It is a visceral hate from being in the Dog pound during "the drive", it is having a huge party and watching Byner fumble as he vaults into the Endzone. It is watching Metcalf, Mack.Kosar all get hurt vs Buffalo in the Afc playoff and unable to play vs Denver as we lose for the third time and watch Denver blow chunks each time in the superbowl and lay down like beat dogs. To see Quinn, a player I think will be a fine pro be so for the fricking Denver broncos makes me want to blow chunks. Should Andy Reid be scapegoated for the mind numbing stupid trade of MacNabb as the eagles plummet to 7-9 then the king of Queens Mangini may have to pay for His i want Quinn out of town regardless of what we get stand. I will add if the journeyman and the punch drunk jake be as bad as i fear then the silver lining is that Cleveland may get a real coach in Andy Reid. 
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I have always thought. yes, I can rant and rave about how we got jobbed but MH was put in a corner and Mangini wanted QUINN OUT.
LOL
You do realize that Holmgren is Mangini's boss now .... right?
And you realize that Holmgren decided to keep Mangini .. right?
And, with your assertation that Holmgren gave in to Mangini on this point ... then Holmgren must have decided the Mangini was worth more to the team than Quinn .... right?
How do you get put in a corner by someone who works for you .... when you have final say over whether or not they even keep their job?
Do you really think that the subject of the QBs didn't come up in the discussions between Holmgren and Mangini prior to the announcement that he would be retained? No on can be that naive.
I cannot think of any situation where a new HMFIC is brought in and a QB seen as a franchise guy is dumped in favor of keeping the old coach around. Not one. Holmgren decided a few things when he took over. Obviously he decided that he could win with Mangini as the Head Coach. He also decided that he could not win with either Quinn nor Anderson at the helm, and thus dumped both of them for a minimal return. Further, the whole league knew that Anderson would be cut based on his contract ...... but Quinn had a managable contract given his inability to reach the escalators. Thus we had a young, former 1st round QB with a managable contract ...... and the Denver offer was the best ths FO felt that they could find for trade. That speaks volumes about Quinn's upside as seen by the rest of the league. It was pretty well known that the Browns had been shopping Quinn around .... and then when they traded for Wallace and Delhomme the writing was on the wall for Quinn. There was no question at that point that he was on his way out. Any team interested in him could have easily stepped up with a superior offer and gained his services. There was little reported interest though .... and we took a minimal offer to move a guy with minimal productivity in his career.
If you really believe that Mangini somehow overruled both Holmgren and Heckert ... wow .... then I don't know what plane of reality you exist on .... but it ain't this one.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Ok...it's certainly not to much to ask for exact quotes of those "logical answers"......
They're in the thread. You coveniantly refused to address most of the points I've made throughout it. I'm not going to waste my time going back through this entire thread to do your homework for you.
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I'm obviously either blind or too dumb to see them,
Yeah, I'm kind of confused as to which one it is too. When you figure it out, let me know will you?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Mr. Django, I don't believe I'm the one who needs to learn to read. I read exactly what you said and I responded. You do not appear to be reading your own posts. IMHO you are coming extremely close to using simple cut and paste in your attempts to respond to the ideas presented to you.
You started this thread by asking what we thought about the Browns' front office. When we told you what we thought, you became belligerent. Now, do you need to learn to read? or write? or both?
I hope you are having fun deluding yourself regarding your importance. There are several of us who are enjoying watching you do so.
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Mr. Django, I don't believe I'm the one who needs to learn to read . ...
You started this thread by asking what we thought about the Browns' front office.
Major, major....FAIL 
@Pit
If you'Re too lazy to copy-paste the great arguments then give me post numbers...it certainly would have taken less time then writing what you did...me thinks you're bluffing with AIR...I responded to pretty much all "arguments" made by you or anybody...meanwhile nobody has tried his hand at explaining how a downgrade in performance can be considered an "upgrade", a strange belief that is running around here
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you back up your opinions with more opinions.
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you back up your opinions with more opinions.
Maybe...if you consider hard cold performance stats as mere "opinion"...while I don't think they are god's word they sure are a pretty good performance INDICATOR, aren't they?
Backing up my opinion with facts and stats is still way better than backing up wishful thinking (that's opinion that are either way out there, see compensation, like Gocong > Wimbley or contradicting in fact: Mangini system + Ryan are good, yet worst yds/play in a long time) with nothing...that's what most in this thread and board overall do anyway
While I think wishful thinking should be taken more seriously in politics and life in general, I don't think it helps much assessing something as simple as football games/performance
Keep up your useless one-liners though 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
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Mr. Django, I don't believe I'm the one who needs to learn to read . ...
You started this thread by asking what we thought about the Browns' front office.
Major, major....FAIL
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Mangini has: won more game(s) than the previous year slashed payroll stock-piled draft picks Those are facts too, and you ignore them b/c you have an anti-Mangini obsession that borders on psychosis.That's another fact. You have yet to prove that the team is in worse shape now than when Mangini took over. Until you can prove that,you are supporting your opinions with more opinions and, I know you may find this hard to believe b/c of your delusions of grandeur, but your opinion is no better than anyone else's. 
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I agree that Holmgren chose to keep Mangini as his coach so far we agree and to keep the peace he decided to trade a QB whom player and coach did not get along. Since he decided on Mangini he defacto decided against Quinn. So we agree that Quinn was down the pecking order from Mangini. WE also agree that MH while agreeing Quinn did not get a fair shot he also knew that to keep his Coach he had to get rid of Quinn and said so. Your need to trash Quinn is your own. I find it sad we have two palookas at QB and the QB you love to trash will prosper in Denver. I agree I cannot nor do i want to change your opinion, you are 100% have every right to mock any player who donned the colors in any manner you care to. I agree you may find it a compulsion as well to mock fellow fans who will not join your public stoning. Does it embarass you? Maybe it should.
I can only hope the two candidates at QB will somehow be able to handle the tough defenses in our division but the limited Seneca wallace and the immobile Delhomme being chased by blitzers is a sight i fear we will often see. I was only pointing out for all in the Holmgren interview mike finally shared what I felt all along, there had to be some personal reason to get so little in a rash move and clutch at two candidates that hardly could be called upgrades. As Mike Florio states MH shoulda waited and signed McNabb.
Feel free to continue mocking Brady Quinn, it must make you feel so good. We now have a pretty empty cupboard at QB so mike has his work to do or else Mangini will be gone by seasons end..maybe Andy Reid will be available since we are talking of scapegoats.
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Our QB cupboard has been pretty bare for a couple of years. DA and a guy who couldn't beat out DA and hold the job. And Ratliff.
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Mangini has:
won more game(s) than the previous year
slashed payroll
stock-piled draft picks
No, I never ignored them...I answered them: what's more important to you IN THE LONG RUN? going from 4 wins to 5 wins (easier schedule to boot, but I'll play nice) or improving overall PERFORMANCE? For me it's the latter...and we regressed there..I'd rather have accepted 3 wins if the O-D AVG/play were at 4.7 to 5.3...
your other 2 points have nothing to do with improving the talent level of this team...and I don't give ANYONE credit for cutting or trading players...every NEW FO would have done that...KW and BE were goners anyway, why should I applaud him for? For getting Veikune und 5 Jets-bums in return? Even you or me would have gotten those trades done, get it now? It's what you DO with the return what matters...NOT that you got market return...every bum could have accomplished that
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You have yet to prove that the team is in worse shape now than when Mangini took over.
How am I going to "prove" it to a guy how just doesn't/can't/won't accept bottom line performance stats as proof? The Defense regressed under Mangini/Ryan and the Offense didn't improve from an already all time low 4.3yds/play in Crennel's last year...and got 1 dimensional on top of that.
It's like arguing with a child who just ran a 5.8 forty....you show him your stop watch and he screams: "I ran a 4.8!!" This is silly...it's not opinion, I'm not making this up...yet you guys act as if I do...that's funny and pretty dumb at the same time
#gmstrong
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I find it sad we have two palookas at QB and the QB you love to trash will prosper in Denver.
I think you've been asked this before, but what exactly have you seen in Quinn that makes you think he can prosper on any team? I'm hoping he does well so we get the higher draft pick, but I'm sure not counting on it. Except for the Lions game last year, he was horrible here.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Okay.. I've read everyones posts. Some I agree with and others I don't... I guess my stand is a mixture of Pit's and Mourgrym's with a shade of some others thrown in.
My feelings on the FO / coach:
I'm not that big a fan of Mangini, I don't think he's that great at game day coaching.. a fair number of his draft picks have left me cold, and I'm not so sure he's all that good with his players. HOWEVER, this is not a final grade with me.. I believe he has some support now and a heirarchy that should be workable and helpful.
Holm and Heck are new.. I'm hopeful but I'm also a Browns fan thats been burned too many times. At NO TIME SOON do I give them the keys to the city. They have to earn that.
BUT, like I said I think we've got a potentially good structure in place. As Pit noted.. we are in the middle of a trial and I need to see some results.. and it's gonna take some time, we give them the same time as we give a draft class.. 3 years.
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i just read through everything but you summed up my general feelings in your post. now, why couldn't you have done that on page 1 so I wouldn't have had to read through everything and to DJ, one simple question. if Mangini is so egotistical and stubborn as you suggest, then why did he change his OL blocking style late in the year? (I believe EO first noticed this after the SD game, not sure when it truly changed during the year). oh, and your opinion that Holmgren told him to do it does not mesh with timelines. Holmgren was hired on December 22nd after the win over Kansas City. the latest the OL change could have happened was in the Pitt game because we were definitely running the zone-blocking for that game, which was 2 weeks earlier. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4762828http://www.nfl.com/teams/clevelandbrowns/schedule?team=CLE&id=1050also, when we are constantly bashing on the quality of opponents that we beat in that 4 game stretch, rarely is it brought up that Pittsburgh and Jacksonville were both fighting for their playoff lives when we played them. They obviously were not good enough to make the playoffs, but we beat them when they had all the motivation in the world to give us their best shot.
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Since we are speculating ..... I would submit that the conversation between Holmgren and Mangini likely went like this:
Holmgren: So what do you feel was the biggest factor holding the offense back last year?
Mangini: Without a doubt, we lacked solid and consistent play at the QB position.
Holmgren: Do you think that it was the players themselves, the supporting players, or the coaching involved?
Mangini: Well, anytime a player fails, like it or not, it certainly falls on the coaches. I do feel that our coaches did a good job last year, but if you have any suggestions, or can offer some guidance, we would definitely love to pick your brain for all the help we can get. That being said, we did have a team that was young and inexperienced at a number of positions, but when we evaluated the tapes, we felt that the QB was holding the other positions back, rather than the other positions holding the QB(s) back.
Holmgren: Well, I have no desire to get back into full time coaching, but I will offer whatever advice I can. As far as the QBs, when I looked at the tape, it also appeared to me that players were open and the QB would not get them the ball. Can we go over a few plays and what was supposed to happen vs what did happen?
Mangini: Sure. Here is a play where the QB has these 3 options .... and this particular option is wide open. Instead he takes this option, an the play is (incomplete/ minimal gain/ turnover) This seemed to be a constant theme, as seen here ... and here ... and here ... and here ....
Holmgren: Yeah, I noticed the same things when I watched tape of last year too. I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page, and it appears we are. I really do not see a QB on this team at this time, and that must be our first priority. There is no way we're going to pay Anderson that huge bonus, and I don't think that Quinn is worth his contract either. Further, I think he might be impeding the development of other players. How would you feel about a temporary veteran QB while we select and develop our future guy?
Mangini: I really think that's the way to go. I don't think that we have the QB to take this team to a championship on this roster right now.
Holmgren: I don't either. OK, we'll cut ties with the 2 we have and bring in a couple of different veteran players. We'll look at the draft for our future guy unless we get a great lead on a trade opportunity.
Mangini: Sounds great Mike.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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LOL nice job Ytown,, thats probably just how it went...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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and to DJ, one simple question. if Mangini is so egotistical and stubborn as you suggest, then why did he change his OL blocking style late in the year? (I believe EO first noticed this after the SD game, not sure when it truly changed during the year).
Well, what choice did he have? how many weeks without a TD did we go? He was a dead man walking and then just THEN he changed the style ...but if's that's his biggest positive...well, lol....his biggest positive being that he needed over half a year after working daily with he roster what was the best style to put the in a position to win ....I'm not going to give him credit for months of wrong evaluation and stubbornly sticking to a system that didn't work....if you think that's cool...have fun...for me it's just more proof for bad evaluation (and he's not teh onyl HC in the league to change somehtin if it's not workin, most adjust quicker though): it's no secret that Thomas, Steiny and Hank are more finesse guys and better suited for a zone-blocking style, yet he chose to do it "his way"...his way failed miserably...and when his bum was on fire he gave in...that's another trait I absolutely despise about Mangini: he only starts questioning his stuff and hears outside tips when HIS status is questioned....before he LOVED acting like Napoleon, no matter thge results
same applies to Jennings-Harrison (and Royal-Moore, C.Williams-Mosley....his guys over bette talent)...he sat him despite being the best runner, and playing a bum like Jennings over him....when the media pressure took off he suddenly was "available" for those set-up PR-interviews and played Harrison again...I know the re-writing on this: "he gave him a chance"...my freaking @$$....who really believes this PR-BS is too naive, sorry
He panicked, felt the hot seat, felt that players weren't playing hard week after week and decided to throw in UDFA guys and bubble roster types WHO HAVE TO play 100% no matter what (if they like him or not) because their career was on the line (after all we are talking about fringe players on a bad team)....Ryan getting the gatorade bath after the Raiders win and players not even looking him in the eyes while shaking his hand on the locker room "celebration" video after the 1st win (BUF) were unambigous....that's my take
I mean...is there anything this guy doesn't suck at? In-game management? check, Pre-Season Evaluation and systems run? check, social skills? check, draft prospect evaluation? check, FA-class knowledge outisde Jets? check
what's he good at? there's nothing....he'd be a real good ST-coach..and I'm not joking, he has an eye for that...but that's it...I don't even think he'd be a competent DC...this D regressed, he got demoted in NE his last season...the list of deficiencies goes on and on...he's just a pretty bad HC, the whole league's laughing at the guy
#gmstrong
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DJ, You are referencing stats that in your opinion prove regression without referencing standard deviation and the like. You can state that the defense "regressed" but you have no frame of reference. Was the competion harder? Ty Cobb hit .367 for a career. Why did he not hit .367 every year? Can you say that the years he hit below .367 he regressed? You state that the schedule was easier this year. Where is your proof? Without the metrics to prove it you have no leg to stand on and it's only your opinion. Here is a stat I have that will take into account just about every metric you can imagine and rolls it neatly into a ball. Pythagorean record or expected wins which is based on a bevy of metrics that people who are really good at stats and metrics use as tools of their profession. 2009 Browns : actual record 5-11 expected wins 4.3 - 11.7 2008 Browns actual record 4-12 expected wins 4.4 - 11.6 In other words, about the same. The metricians have proven you wrong about the team regressing. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/
Last edited by Line Judge; 04/12/10 06:51 PM.
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wow...you sure make an awful lot of assumptions for having absolutely no access to anyone that could support your take.
one simple little point....you dont even understand why harrison was kept off the field. you seem to be of the opinion that RB's have only one job, which is to run the ball.
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Lol at Ty Cobb...the Crennel Browns already hit below the Mendoza line Pythagorean stuff on Football? Are you kidding me? It's not baseball...and most probably includes ST-performance (and we won like 3 games on ST alone, right?)...I already said Mangini is a good ST-Coach, lol and Cribbs career year sure did help too...we regressed or didn't improve from already awful play on O and D...that's my beef..and I gave you the stats on that Here's your proof for SOS: 2008: http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d809fbfa9&template=with-video&confirm=true2009: http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5...mp;confirm=trueLike the comment on us: "The schedule sets up perfectly for Eric Mangini to engineer a quick turnaround in his first season. The Browns only face six opponents that had winning records in 2008, with three of those matchups on the road."
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you should read the title to the 2009 article before posting it as a reason that Mangini is a failure: "Take strength-of-schedule calculations with a grain of salt" why? because that was a PRE-SEASON article. did they take into account the Vikings being the 2nd best NFC team? did they take into account the Packers quick ascension to being a very good team? did they take into account the Bengals rise? of course not, you are saying the 2009 schedule was weak using a pre-season article. Here is how you do it: 2008 Browns .572 SOS (with 4 wins) http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5...mp;confirm=true2009 Browns .490 SOS (with 5 wins) http://draftdebacled.com/teams_nfl.aspx(nfl.com hasn't posted their 2010 NFL SOS that I can find.) you are correct we had a weaker schedule as the data supports it. but please use real reasoning in the future instead of predictions to support hypothesis. thanks.
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Quote:
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and to DJ, one simple question. if Mangini is so egotistical and stubborn as you suggest, then why did he change his OL blocking style late in the year? (I believe EO first noticed this after the SD game, not sure when it truly changed during the year).
Well, what choice did he have? how many weeks without a TD did we go? He was a dead man walking and then just THEN he changed the style ...but if's that's his biggest positive...well, lol....his biggest positive being that he needed over half a year after working daily with he roster what was the best style to put the in a position to win ....I'm not going to give him credit for months of wrong evaluation and stubbornly sticking to a system that didn't work....if you think that's cool...have fun...for me it's just more proof for bad evaluation (and he's not teh onyl HC in the league to change somehtin if it's not workin, most adjust quicker though): it's no secret that Thomas, Steiny and Hank are more finesse guys and better suited for a zone-blocking style, yet he chose to do it "his way"...his way failed miserably...and when his bum was on fire he gave in...that's another trait I absolutely despise about Mangini: he only starts questioning his stuff and hears outside tips when HIS status is questioned....before he LOVED acting like Napoleon, no matter thge results
same applies to Jennings-Harrison (and Royal-Moore, C.Williams-Mosley....his guys over bette talent)...he sat him despite being the best runner, and playing a bum like Jennings over him....when the media pressure took off he suddenly was "available" for those set-up PR-interviews and played Harrison again...I know the re-writing on this: "he gave him a chance"...my freaking @$$....who really believes this PR-BS is too naive, sorry
He panicked, felt the hot seat, felt that players weren't playing hard week after week and decided to throw in UDFA guys and bubble roster types WHO HAVE TO play 100% no matter what (if they like him or not) because their career was on the line (after all we are talking about fringe players on a bad team)....Ryan getting the gatorade bath after the Raiders win and players not even looking him in the eyes while shaking his hand on the locker room "celebration" video after the 1st win (BUF) were unambigous....that's my take
I mean...is there anything this guy doesn't suck at? In-game management? check, Pre-Season Evaluation and systems run? check, social skills? check, draft prospect evaluation? check, FA-class knowledge outisde Jets? check
what's he good at? there's nothing....he'd be a real good ST-coach..and I'm not joking, he has an eye for that...but that's it...I don't even think he'd be a competent DC...this D regressed, he got demoted in NE his last season...the list of deficiencies goes on and on...he's just a pretty bad HC, the whole league's laughing at the guy
He is good at ruining QBs and scapegoating them after he stubbornly plays a spent RB, trades a top TE and plays a Rummy, plays a RT who has feet of cement, dumps his only vet WR and leaves a passel of rookies, only play Vickers a lot toward the end of the season and the blocking finally improves. At least with Holmgren looking over Napoleons' shoulder he can't make trades, run the same pighead plays to oblivion, he will have to employ some semblance of strategy, he will have to answer to Mke for NOT playing the best players: Bottom line is little Caesar has to play nice this year and since he forced out Quinn he better hope the two Rummies he has( Oh I forget the soon discarded Jet Rummy) help him win more than 5 contest or Big Mike gives him the Big Boot.
Nice post Django
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Since we are speculating ..... I would submit that the conversation between Holmgren and Mangini likely went like this:
Holmgren: So what do you feel was the biggest factor holding the offense back last year?
Mangini: Without a doubt, we lacked solid and consistent play at the QB position.
Holmgren: Do you think that it was the players themselves, the supporting players, or the coaching involved?
Mangini: Well, anytime a player fails, like it or not, it certainly falls on the coaches. I do feel that our coaches did a good job last year, but if you have any suggestions, or can offer some guidance, we would definitely love to pick your brain for all the help we can get. That being said, we did have a team that was young and inexperienced at a number of positions, but when we evaluated the tapes, we felt that the QB was holding the other positions back, rather than the other positions holding the QB(s) back.
Holmgren: Well, I have no desire to get back into full time coaching, but I will offer whatever advice I can. As far as the QBs, when I looked at the tape, it also appeared to me that players were open and the QB would not get them the ball. Can we go over a few plays and what was supposed to happen vs what did happen?
Mangini: Sure. Here is a play where the QB has these 3 options .... and this particular option is wide open. Instead he takes this option, an the play is (incomplete/ minimal gain/ turnover) This seemed to be a constant theme, as seen here ... and here ... and here ... and here ....
Holmgren: Yeah, I noticed the same things when I watched tape of last year too. I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page, and it appears we are. I really do not see a QB on this team at this time, and that must be our first priority. There is no way we're going to pay Anderson that huge bonus, and I don't think that Quinn is worth his contract either. Further, I think he might be impeding the development of other players. How would you feel about a temporary veteran QB while we select and develop our future guy?
Mangini: I really think that's the way to go. I don't think that we have the QB to take this team to a championship on this roster right now.
Holmgren: I don't either. OK, we'll cut ties with the 2 we have and bring in a couple of different veteran players. We'll look at the draft for our future guy unless we get a great lead on a trade opportunity.
Mangini: Sounds great Mike.
Here your post reminded me of the fun I had with fictitous conversations at the official website so here is mine.
MH: I saw all the tapes last year and that was some high school offense. tell me about what i saw.
EM: We didn't have the plays, I had to Fire George as he blew the Robiskie pick and dumped Edwards for Nothing.
MH: whose Idea was it to Dump Winslow and sign Royal.
EM: George, George, it was all George.
MH: what about that RT, what took you so long to replace him. the journeyman guard played considerably better.
EM: Well, uhm, well , oh yeah, we did not start giving the guard reps at tackle till mid season and he needed time to understand his assignment.
MH: Why did you play Anderson so long when he was horrible.
EM: well, Quinn was no better, and that is why I wanted his insubordinate attitude gone.
MH: Your trades were horrible, your insistence on playing your stiffs(I mean players)
was questionable, as was your play calling. You deal with the press like a cornered weasel because you justifiably cannot defend some of your moves and behavior... Why should you be the Coach in 2010.
( Mangini takes out his Shoe polish kit, gets on his knees and as he is buffing a high shine) EM: because now Mikie, with You handling the Press, making the trades, making suggestions uhm, schooling the OC, and getting me new QBs I am sure we can win now. I will do whatever you ask. I will...
MH: I believe we are on the same page.
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While I have to disappoint you, because I think Quinn will never amount to anything in this league, there's no denying that BOTH QBs regressed badly under Mangini...I mean we're talking about 2 mid-20s QBs that should only get better (they couldn't get much worse anyway after 2008)...yet BOTH their play went from bad to horrible...how come? What changed (players, system, OC) and who changed it? It's not rocket science....
As bad as I, or anyone of us, thinks Quinn and DA are...they were put in the worst position to produce in their career EVER...if it was 1 of those 2, well maybe..but both? this has to be traced back to the coaching staff....maybe it's Daboll's fault? Maybe...but who hired him? Who put him in this position to fail, too? If you're a D-minded HC, how can you name a guy OC, who has NEVER in his career called ANY plays at ANY level of play...it was set up to fail. Daboll was his UDFA-Coach so to say....a guy who had to lick his feet for this chance and wouldn't start a mutiny...so THIS hire was either about EGO over talent like I just alluded to...or just incompetency if he thought Daboll is good enough for the job...pick your poison
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somewhere in Akron there is a 2 room Troll House
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