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Good read for the most part..... Quote:
While they don't say so, it's no secret that the Browns would like to sign free agent Eric Steinbach, the outstanding guard from the Cincinnati Bengals. The Browns want him as a guard to replace free agent Cosey Coleman. They also have major questions about veteran guard Joe Andruzzi, who is having physical problems. Finding guards is one of the key quests for the offseason.
Hmmm........interesting read here. I really hope this is true, becasue I think if you ever upgraded the interior then the Ol would be much better. Yeah I want an elite LT too, but the truth is it looks like Joe will go # 2 to the Lions, and we are going to be out of that hunt. If we got Steinbach and then drafted a Beekman to play RG in the 2nd (and eo he's already mentioned as a 2nd not a 3rd........told ya...lol) then our interior long term looks pretty good if La can make it back.........if not this year then the next. The OTs still are below avg. but it's a huge step if we want to RUN the ball.
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• The Browns hope Isaac Sowells can develop into a starter at guard or tackle. He was the team's fourth-round draft pick a year ago out of Indiana, where he was a left tackle. He had a major ankle sprain and some other physical problems that set him back in training camp.
I hope they mean that long term and not next year. The kid did nothing to show he can handle a starting job, and I hope we arent' betting that he's ready.
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• Hank Fraley played well enough at center for the Browns to make an offer for him to return -- and he supposedly has a strong interest in coming back. While Fraley is no LeCharles Bentley, the Browns think he's OK. Besides, they know they have bigger problems looking for two guards and at least one tackle.
Like Vers said..........why isn't it done then??? La is probably not coming back next year, and I don't want the Ephraim's of the world manning down the C spot come spring training. I mean if we get Steinbach and 2nd rnd OG and then put them next to a liability at C it's like a 1 step forward 1 step back kind of thing.........geez get it done already.
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Edwards is telling the Browns that he plans to start fresh in 2007 and that he learned from some of his mistakes last season. The Browns are glad to hear that and hope he follows through. It's not an excuse but it's a fact that Edwards is only 23 and was handed a $17 million bonus at the age of 21 -- and that's not exactly the ideal prescription for maturity. Sometimes, these young guys with lots of cash only learn some things the hard way -- when they are embarrassed
God I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath. He can do it, but I want to see it and not hear about it. Shut your pie hole, learn the playbook, and catch the ball Leon and then I'll believe in your fresh start.
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Savage and his scouts are spending massive amounts of time checking out linemen on offense and defense. Savage knows the defensive line needs help quick. Ted Washington will be 39 on opening day. At 34, Orpheus Roye is showing some age. Alvin McKinley is a free agent, and the Browns are not sold on him as a starter. They like Simon Fraser as a backup but think that they need, at least, two defensive lineman to boost the 3-4 defense.
This is a no brainer, and should be our main priority. We must get at least 2 DLs this year, and 1 of them needs to be a NT to be ready to replace Ted next year...........if not this year. I would like to see 1 in FA that can start day 1, and 2 in the draft.........but I could live with 1 this year and 1 the next............but I mean day 1 picks not the day 2 throw away picks we've been seeing.
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• The Browns will talk to free safety Brian Russell, but it's a long shot that he'll be back. The reason is the Browns are confident in young safeties Brodney Pool and Sean Jones. They are very worried at cornerback, where they have only Leigh Bodden as a healthy veteran starter. So you can talk offensive linemen, defensive linemen and cornerbacks as big needs -- and bigger keys to next season than drafting a quarterback high.
If we go this route it means a couple of things...........1) Russell must be wanting a pretty good check...........and 2) we are confident enough that Poole is ready that we are okay with letting Brian walk. It's not the strategy I wanted, but I can see their point if the above are correct. As for the 2nd part of the paragraph, I agree with the others that said if we are that worried about getting a CB we need to do it via FA, becasue there isn't a CB worth our pick, and your just not going to get a day 1 starter from the 2nd or 3rd rounds.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Quote:
LT: Shaffer/ Butler
LG:?
C:?
RG:?
RT: Tucker?/ Butler
I'd add a "?" near Tucker too. He missed 7 games for a mysterious mental reason. We should have a plan in place if he bails out again. I hope he's well with or without the Browns.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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I'd add a "?" near Tucker too. He missed 7 games for a mysterious mental reason. We should have a plan in place if he bails out again. I hope he's well with or without the Browns.
I wouldn't characterize him as bailing out. It would be wise to have a backup plan in case he isn't well yet.
#gmstrong
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Like Vers said..........why isn't it done then??? La is probably not coming back next year, and I don't want the Ephraim's of the world manning down the C spot come spring training. I mean if we get Steinbach and 2nd rnd OG and then put them next to a liability at C it's like a 1 step forward 1 step back kind of thing.........geez get it done already.
Maybe they know something that we dont and Bentley will be back for the season. They could be waiting to suprise us, waiting for what who knows. Maybe Fraley is asking for too much.
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VERS... Quote:
Steinbach is going to command big money, whether it is as a LT or LG. I still don't see how he would want to come to the Browns when he can get big money from a good team.
1st, you don't know who will make offers...2nd, every year someone says we'll never attract FAs, and since Phil has been here, we have...Russell, who has been a solid starter and a great leader...Ted and McG, who have both shown their age, but the talk was they'd never come here...Bentley, who was all but moved into his house in Philly...
as for Steinbach, i'm glad we're considering it, but i'm not crazy with the idea of putting him at RG...his history is LG, and the draft is much deeper in guys that project to the right side, is it not? (Blaylock, Grubbs, Beekman, Ramirez)...
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Pluto forgot to mention that Sowells struggled w/all facets of the game even when he was healthy.
probably should've mentioned it, but how dare a 4th round draftpick fighting injury struggle in his rookie season?! 
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This was supposed to be public knowledge by now. Wonder what's going on?
exactly what is your complaint?...that we weren't told about the Browns making him an offer sooner than this?...
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Once again, Pluto neglected to mention the differences of opinion on Shaffer and Leon.
so he forgot to mention something that only you have alluded to...information your inside source has leaked to you and noone else...why wouldn't he leak to Pluto, who has a real public voice?...
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What a steal......our OL will be fixed.
was that ever claimed?...
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Despite what the board thinks of Robo......he is very respected in NFL circles.
so, to your own proclamation, position coaches are the most important coaches to the team...and yet, a guy who's unit consistently makes mental errors year in and year out, no matter the #s on their jerseys, you're defending?...
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Fraser would be okay in the rotation, but he is not a starter.
Pluto spefically stated he's not looked upon as a starter...
Browns fans are born with it...
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It isn't that bad. In any year at this time you have potential holes. We do have the ability to sign some players....and will.
Then we have the draft......but the draft isn't really the time to fill holes IMO. Drafting for need is a short sighted way to go.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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maybe, but Phil takes BPA exclusively, he'll be fired before all positions have been upgraded to the degree necessary to win...by taking need guys at times, you improve your chances of winning sooner significantly...i.e. a Cal Johnson is BPA, a Thomas is need, and drafting Cal will likely do nothing to improve our record next season, whereas the opposite is more likely to improve W%...
Browns fans are born with it...
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That is cool....I still say FA is your need round.
The draft is best left to selecting the best players you can.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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expensive to fill all your needs via FA, but i get your point...
Browns fans are born with it...
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Plus.....look at any draft......how many slots down can you go before it is unrealistic to expect any hole to be filled?? 2? 3? 4?
Sure it is expensive. You have to make good decisions....but at least you know what you are getting.
In the end, it takes both to build a team.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I couldn't agree more with the needs as listed: OL/CB/DL. In my opinion, litterally every other position group can be put on hold or in maintenance mode this offseason....
I keep saying that targeting 3 areas with 7 picks plus FA is a lot easier..
And I keep telling certain posters don't croak if Opie takes a CB on the first day.
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If Opie can get Samuels or Clements I would rather him not take a CB until the 2nd day. However I would really like to get Woodley or Ross in the 3rd round
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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U seem conflicted..u don't want him to take a CB on the first day but U wouldn't mind having Ross in the 3rd?
Aaron Ross the CB from Texas?
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"This was supposed to be public knowledge by now. Wonder what's going on?"
From what I last heard...we made our offer. He wants to stay here. He wants to see what he's worth in the FA market before making his decision???
Taking a guess we will give him no more than a week (after March 2nd)...but if there is an opportunity of equal benefits for skills at the position. We won't wait on the wims of player telling us to wait. Ala Kelly Holcomb...the window will be there but very short. We can't paint ourselves in a corner. The only exception of waiting would be how much we assess Rob Smith to beable to man the position temporarily till Bentley is ready???
Won't even go to the other stuff - to keep the board peace. What is odd though...the more I see or experience Savage...the more he seems like a guy you would like???
As always JMHO...Danielle if reading could give us the skivvy on Hank much better than anyone? Hope she had a beautiful healthy baby - and all is well!!! 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
As always JMHO...Danielle if reading could give us the skivvy on Hank much better than anyone?
I thought about that........first, she would be stupid to get on here and get into that.......my feeling is the offer isn't what they wanted or it would have been signed by now.
Fair reasoning??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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That would probably be a pretty good deduction being that her last presence here was to inform us of the new family addition and to pass word that they expected to hear something around the time of the Super Bowl (I believe that statement referred to "negotiations will open with the team around that time").
Hanks agent could just be advising that they wait for free agency to start to get a fair evaluation of what his true market value is.... or perhaps the flip side... maybe the agent's numbers are a little high and we're thinking that his expectations will be corrected once FA kicks off in 2 weeks..... or, just maybe things move at a slower pace this time of year as there is no sense of urgency and folks want to take their time in reviewing their options and offers.
Either way, I don't think it's anything for anyone to start a panic over just yet.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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That's how I remember it ending. The guy should wait IMO. The word we had is he was eager to sign something during the season last year.....we decided to pass, and now he would be stupid to just sign the first contract we offer. It may indeed be his best offer or it might only be a starting point. We didn't do him any favors a few months ago. no reason he needs to do any now. And that isn't intended as a slap towards either side...it's just the nature of the game. And no...we don't need to panic. Fraley is a decent player, but no someone we can't live without. It may not be who we want, or even a decent player, but I will bet my house someone is snapping the ball for us come September. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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All Pro
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Fraley is a decent player, but no someone we can't live without.
I partially disagree.
We currently, as far as I have read, we only have 1 sure fire starter on the line right now in Shaffer. Two if you count Andruzzi but I don't.
Hank Played very well and I loved his never say die motor. Wasn't he usually down field trying to throw a block while the rest of the line was standing around at the l.o.s.?
The only way I would change my opinion right now is if LCB is much further along than we know about. As is, I don't even count LeCharles for '07.
jmho, due to fear of a worse OL than '06
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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"Fair reasoning??"
Without a doubt about her coming here and giving us a heads up...I'm sure she been advised to be mum about the proceedings. NONE OF OUR BUSINESS and can understand that...Tell how the baby went though Danielle don't tell anything else 
As far as you assumption that what we offerred was basically "not what they wanted"
In our history we almost always offered a fair offer. Even to Holcomb if you can remember. And he opted to test his value in the FA market before signing. QB I would say was a little more of a need to get solidified and not get left with Thumb up Butt so we went and explored other avenues as did he explore his worth.
I see this as similar...except we can have a bigger window out there for Center than QB as the skill set isn't as demanding.
But I think we made our offer...A fair one. And it was said that Fraley would like to see what the FA market holds out there for him. Sometimes they come Flying back as did Northcutt when they got real bad feelers. And sometimes it ends up on a OKAY you do that and then we just go take care of our needs as in don't hold your breath on us holding that contract for you.
Which grey area this will fall under??? Don't know. But I have to believe we made a "FAIR" offer. Probably the best offer out there. Steeler hopefully won't give us much competition nor a couple more out there??? with similar needs.
JMHO - but you can't blame them for seeing what they are worth with this new Cap room galore thing. Of course I hope he doesn't blame us if we don't wait on him either as we get somebody signed n sealed rather quickly.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I didn't say anyting about a fair offer...just one they didn't like.
Fair offers tend to be less than knock you off your feet offers, which tend to make people check around just to see how fair it is.
When you go to buy a new car the first offer the salesman brings back might indeed be a fair offer but it ususally doesn't make you jump into signing until you have checked the market first.
At this point, unless the Browns just blow him away with their offer, Fraley is going to test the waters......like he should.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Are you itching for a fight? Seriously........I always liked you, but your tone is very confrontational. I will refrain from replying in kind.....as much as I can.  Quote:
1st, you don't know who will make offers...2nd, every year someone says we'll never attract FAs, and since Phil has been here, we have...Russell, who has been a solid starter and a great leader...Ted and McG, who have both shown their age, but the talk was they'd never come here...Bentley, who was all but moved into his house in Philly...
I never mentioned "who" would make offers. Are you saying he won't receive multiple offers?
Every guy you mentioned had ties to the Browns, except for Russel, but at the time, his options were limited. They are either from Ohio or played for RAC. What ties does Steinbach have?
And one more time...........why would he want to come here if there are other offers for big money on the table? Unless you don't think anyone else will offer him big money????
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Pluto forgot to mention that Sowells struggled w/all facets of the game even when he was healthy.
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probably should've mentioned it, but how dare a 4th round draftpick fighting injury struggle in his rookie season?!
Good one. There were guys off the street that moved ahead of him. That doesn't make you wonder..........at all?
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This was supposed to be public knowledge by now. Wonder what's going on?
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exactly what is your complaint?...that we weren't told about the Browns making him an offer sooner than this?..
It wasn't a complaint. Your dislike of me is shining through. I'm simply wondering what is going on. I did hear that we would know something by last week. Not a complaint..........just wondering out loud. Is that okay w/you?
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Once again, Pluto neglected to mention the differences of opinion on Shaffer and Leon.
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so he forgot to mention something that only you have alluded to...information your inside source has leaked to you and noone else...why wouldn't he leak to Pluto, who has a real public voice?...
*L* My point was that I bet he does know about this.
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What a steal......our OL will be fixed.
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was that ever claimed?...
Nope, but a clear picture was not painted. If you think it was, more power to you.
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Despite what the board thinks of Robo......he is very respected in NFL circles.
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so, to your own proclamation, position coaches are the most important coaches to the team...and yet, a guy who's unit consistently makes mental errors year in and year out, no matter the #s on their jerseys, you're defending?...
Care to be more specific?
And let me ask you something I ask ALL Robo detractors. For all the supposed poor coaching he has done w/the great talent we have had at WR, name one who went somewhere else and did a better under the tutoring of the supposedly better coaches?
Is KJ even on a roster?
How many catches did Q have this year?
How many catches did A. Davis have?
Where is J. Dawson?
Frisman Jackson?
Who the [censored] was that guy.......from Miami....Andre King? What's he doing?
Get real!
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Fraser would be okay in the rotation, but he is not a starter.
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Pluto spefically stated he's not looked upon as a starter...
He didn't. I wasn't disagreeing w/him. Jesus. I said it was a pretty good article in my very FIRST sentence. Get the burr outta your ass. I was actually agreeing w/Pluto. I brought it up because there are people on here that view Fraser as a legit starter.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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• When it comes to evaluating young quarterbacks, the Browns find it hard because they went through two offensive coordinators last year, the offensive line was a mess and running back Reuben Droughns had a poor year. How much do you blame Charlie Frye or Derek Anderson for that? It's not an easy question, even though some fans think picking a quarterback would solve many of the problems on offense. If so, they are conning themselves.
Pluto is right on in this opinion...
What is unbelievable is how many "are conning themselves" 
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• The problems between General Manager Phil Savage and Davidson were typical of a coach/GM. The coach favored his veteran players, especially Andruzzi. Savage wanted to look at someone else at guard because he thought that Andruzzi was so banged up physically. There might have been some other disagreements, but the main problem was the Browns did not want him back as offensive coordinator.
My vote goes to Savage...he was right, Andruzzi is aging and it's time to look for a replacement. If Davidson was being a homer for a guy he coached back in New England, the coach is putting his personal relationships ahead of the team...and that is not a good for the team.
Davidson was not qualified to take over as the Browns OC either. If Fox wants to hire Davidson based on past relationships (homerism) good for Davidson, but the team could suffer.
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• Savage and his scouts are spending massive amounts of time checking out linemen on offense and defense. Savage knows the defensive line needs help quick. Ted Washington will be 39 on opening day. At 34, Orpheus Roye is showing some age. Alvin McKinley is a free agent, and the Browns are not sold on him as a starter. They like Simon Fraser as a backup but think that they need, at least, two defensive lineman to boost the 3-4 defense.
I hope that Savage is concentrating on the offensive line more so than the defensive line. But the above paragraph does tell me the teams focus is where it should be, the guys in the trenches.
Last edited by mac; 02/15/07 08:54 AM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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VERS...
well, we all carry our mood into posts, don't we?...was not trying to start any fights, though...just annoyed at the time that you feel compelled to find a negative spin to every piece of new these days, no matter how benign...you may not have meant anything by statements like 'makes me wonder', but they sure imply something negative to me...maybe it's just me carrying over memory of your attitude towards Savage...so pissing-contest aside...
as for Steinbach, yes other teams will offer, but there is no guarantee there will be a more attractive offer, overall...if noone offers T money, then i'm sure we'll make a solid bid...who's gonna outbid us?...as you said, if it's a SB contender, we probably lose out...if it's the Texans, Raiders, etc., who knows what other factors will come into play (e.g. not making family move, with Cinci & Cleve so close)...
BTW, there's a couple guys we could use that have Ohio roots, which you acknowledged as factors...Clements (OSU), Dielman (Troy High School)...maybe more, but those are the two that jump out...
don't know who the guys off the street that moved ahead of Sowells are...Friedman was from Chicago, and Matua is backing up at RG, not LG/LT, i thought...and no, i'm not sold Sowells was some great pick, but i'm not gonna make a snap juedgment on him, either...
why would Pluto withhold info about internal Savage-Davidson conflict?...he addresses one reason, why not the others that you so often bring up?...reporters' job is to keep people reading, and internal strife will definately keep people reading...i don't get the motivation to withhold...
i see your point about Robo and the guys that left...they were not very talented...but i guess i interpret talent at the WR position to be speed, size, and the ability to separate from defenders...i look at body-catching, getting the play wrong, and running poor routes (rounded out cuts, not getting 2-3 yds past marker before hooking back) as technique issues, not talent issues...and these have been issues since 99, even with a guy considered to be possibly the best athlete in the 05 draft...so, in a way, i don't care what happened when those guys left...i care that Robo couldn't teach the things i consider teachable...
Browns fans are born with it...
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The thing I remember most from Robo was him begging Botch to take Quincy Morgan with our 2nd round pick in the draft. He insisted it would be a steal, and Robo "just had to have him." The rest, as they say, is history. I know, it's just one thing. But I'm fairly sure I'm not the first one on the board to judge someone based on one thing ...
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I've got more than enough reasons to point at Robo and name him Bozo, but that bit about Morgan is news to me.
I really don't care how well "respected" Bozo is thought of around the league. He did nothing to distinguish himself as a WR's coach here, and was a pathetic failure and con-man as an interim HC. The stuff about Morgan is nothing but icing on the cake.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Its true about Q .... hes the one that scouted him and pushed bOtch to take him ... that was well documented back then ... that coupled with the fact he's the one that pushed for Westbrook in Wash (i think it was Michael Westbrook . the guy that went psycho on S. Davis and never did a thing despite being a 1st rnd pick) had me questioning him at a very early stage .. and I have no clue who hes well respected by ... i saw NO PROOF of anything he did to command respect by me .. when he waltzed out in a press conference with a ball and Frye in tow and then ridiculed Frye about how we have to protect the ball . that was it for me .. BUSH MOVE emberrasing anyone like that .. TOTAL BUSH ... yet its OK for him to do that yet Braby should be hung according to some ... *LOL* .. and No . your not one that sticks up for robo .. so the hypocritical stuff wasnt' directed at U .. your only fault in this is chastising RAC for how he handled Braby ...
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j/c
about Fraley. IIRC at this point the Browns owe Philly a 7th in '08. If Fraley comes back next season it's a 6th in '08. That might be a factor. Is Fraley that much better than Rob Smith or another player ( FA or draft pick) to justify an escalation in the trade terms? I think it would be worth it,but I'm not Phil Savage....
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McCown, not Frye, but I'm with ya on that one. It was bush-league. Setting that aside, he doesn't have to be a good talent evaluator to be a good receivers coach (good thing because he obviously wasn't) but he didn't do anything to prove he could make his crew better. No wonder he was an utter failure as a HC in this league. Some guys just aren't cut out for it.
Bozo will still get work, but he was part of the problem here, not part of the solution. Problem is that we've had real issues with finding solutions. We've found too many problems.
And don't get me started on RAC. I'll save those bullets for the season *L*
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
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We've found too many problems.
*LOL* .... at least now we found sumptin were good at ... we finally have sumptin to hang our hat on ... *L*
as u know I am THRILLED ROBO is gone ... i was upset when RAC let him stay .. YUCK ... BYE BYE ROBO ...
and in case u missed it .. he found work in the state pen in cinci .. he'll fit right in there .. 
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Maybe he can blow up a big BAIL BOND and show it to all the players and say: "TAKE CARE OF THIS, I DON'T HAVE TOO MANY OF THESE!" 
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Yeah, like he's going to be able to control Chad, Hoosh, and Henry *L*
He couldn't control Edwards, but he's going to reign those clowns in? They'll take one look at him, call him an old man, and tell him in no uncertain terms to let them do their job. *L*
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Hall of Famer
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we all carry our mood into posts, don't we?...was not trying to start any fights, though
Okay........I was just asking.
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...just annoyed at the time that you feel compelled to find a negative spin to every piece of new these days, no matter how benign...you may not have meant anything by statements like 'makes me wonder', but they sure imply something negative to me...maybe it's just me carrying over memory of your attitude towards Savage...so pissing-contest aside...
Just what have the Browns accomplished to make it so I shouldn't be negative? Is it their record? Their firing of coaches after saying they needed time to implement their plan? Their great respect around the league? Their potential? Their amazing lines? Is it because they were at the bottom of the league at running the ball and stopping the run? Is it because they were almost dead last in almost every offensive category? Just what the [censored] have they done to make us believe they are doing a good job.........other than blind loyalty???
You may see it as negative......I see it as being real.
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if noone offers T money, then i'm sure we'll make a solid bid...who's gonna outbid us?...as you said, if it's a SB contender, we probably lose out...if it's the Texans, Raiders, etc., who knows what other factors will come into play (e.g. not making family move, with Cinci & Cleve so close)...
I imagine there are several teams that will offer him big money and I still contend that he would choose to go to a stable team rather than one is disarray. And Cleveland and Cinci are not that close. It's not a commute. *L*
If I am wrong, I will admit it. Will you?
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BTW, there's a couple guys we could use that have Ohio roots, which you acknowledged as factors...Clements (OSU), Dielman (Troy High School)...maybe more, but those are the two that jump out...
I wouldn't dream of discounting those guys. There is a reason to sign here, provided they grew up as Brown's fans. I don't see that w/Steinbach.
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don't know who the guys off the street that moved ahead of Sowells are...Friedman was from Chicago, and Matua is backing up at RG, not LG/LT, i thought...and no, i'm not sold Sowells was some great pick, but i'm not gonna make a snap juedgment on him, either...
Smith.
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why would Pluto withhold info about internal Savage-Davidson conflict?...he addresses one reason, why not the others that you so often bring up?...reporters' job is to keep people reading, and internal strife will definately keep people reading...i don't get the motivation to withhold...
Clever way of saying I am making it up. So be it.
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i see your point about Robo and the guys that left...they were not very talented...
Actually, my point was that those guys had their best years under Robo and never even came close to being as productive after they left the terrible coach and played for good WR coaches. LOL
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so, in a way, i don't care what happened when those guys left...i care that Robo couldn't teach the things i consider teachable...
Again, who did teach them those things. Every single one of them digressed. Not one of them improved. I realize it doesn't fit the agenda that so many of you are spinning, but it is a fact.
And after reading all the slams on Robo, I suspect the Brown's receivers will put up better numbers than the Bengal's receivers this year. 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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VERS... Quote:
Just what have the Browns accomplished to make it so I shouldn't be negative? Is it their record? Their firing of coaches after saying they needed time to implement their plan? Their great respect around the league? Their potential? Their amazing lines? Is it because they were at the bottom of the league at running the ball and stopping the run? Is it because they were almost dead last in almost every offensive category? Just what the [censored] have they done to make us believe they are doing a good job.........other than blind loyalty???
You may see it as negative......I see it as being real.
yeah...being real negative  ...it is not that those things are not something to worry about/question, it is that you refuse to see any possible positive aspects going on...e.g. i didn't like the idea of firing Mo, and never thought it would fix our O, but if he was giving protections that didn't match the plays, if he was not in control of his players, it is understandable that he was let go...so criticzing the regime as a simple case of instability is unfair...
i have no problem with reality, but why is it that you cannot see both sides of it?...i can see that our 05 draft does not look good after year 2...i can see that paying Shaffer was a mistake...can you see that the 06 draft looks to be pretty solid after 1 year?...can you see that the right problems are being addressed by this regime (OL, passrush, runD), even if you don't like the particular moves?...
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I imagine there are several teams that will offer him big money and I still contend that he would choose to go to a stable team rather than one is disarray. And Cleveland and Cinci are not that close. It's not a commute. *L*
If I am wrong, I will admit it. Will you?
nope...i have way too much internet pride for that ...
yes, cross-Ohio isn't a commute, but that's for a regular joe...there are many NFL players that don't uproot their families with every move, and it is a short enough flight to make that a reasonable choice for Steinbach...not even arguing that would be a factor...just trying to use an example off the top of my head to dispell your argument that it's simply gonna be a decision based upon team success...we shall see...of course, the odds are in your favor...there are only 2 teams with worse records than ours, so you could argue a 5-11 squad is more desirable  ...
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Smith.
Rob Smith?...the C/LG?...he played in 1 game...the same game that Sowells also got his playing time...at RT...if you have 2 spots to fill for 1 game...LG and RT...and you have a Smith C/LG, Sowells G/T, and Dorsey T, what would you have done?...the fact is neither player was ready to contribute their rookie year...most late-round OL aren't...i guess i don't see the big problem that a 4th rounder without a clearcut NFL position and injury problems wasn't a starter in his rookie year...you surely know OL technique and all that more than me, so you must have your reasons...i just can't be convinced by that 'passed up by Smith' argument...
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Actually, my point was that those guys had their best years under Robo and never even came close to being as productive after they left the terrible coach and played for good WR coaches. LOL
never said a word about other WR coaches...as for players actually doing their best here, that's a bit oof a false premise, IMO...i.e. Chanoine, Wholabaugh, Zahursky, etc. probably had their best playing days here...that must mean our OL coach was great, right?...Antonio Bryant was the only guy that went to be a starter elsewhere...he had essentially the same YPC, TDS, plays over 20, over 40...only thing he went down in was # catches...Johnson, Morgan, Davis, all went on to be #3/4 receivers...their talent kept them off the field, so it's pretty hard to say that their 'coachables' changed one way or the other...
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Again, who did teach them those things. Every single one of them digressed. Not one of them improved. I realize it doesn't fit the agenda that so many of you are spinning, but it is a fact.
so if i disagree that Robo was a coach worth keeping around, i have an agenda?...come on, man...you should know my posts well enough to know i'm not following some mob who look for guys to get fired just for the sake of change...as i said above, you don't know their technique regressed...you just know that they didn't play as much...i can't read anything about that except that we drafted guys that weren't TALENTED enough to get significant reps elsewhere...
Browns fans are born with it...
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i didn't like the idea of firing Mo, and never thought it would fix our O, but if he was giving protections that didn't match the plays, if he was not in control of his players, it is understandable that he was let go...so criticzing the regime as a simple case of instability is unfair...
That is a couple of big ifs. Mo had two major problems. One was w/Davidson and the other was because he called out Coleman and Andruzzi for their poor play. The rest of it is made up BS!
Ask yourself is the offense improved after he left? In fact, they got worse. They didn't score an offensive TD in 3 of the last 6 games and scored a meaningless late TD in a blowout loss to the Steelers in a fourth game.
I ain't blaming Davidson for that poor offense. That would be hyporcritical. What I am saying is that the offense had many problems and the scheme and playcalling were not the problems.
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have no problem with reality, but why is it that you cannot see both sides of it?...i can see that our 05 draft does not look good after year 2...i can see that paying Shaffer was a mistake...can you see that the 06 draft looks to be pretty solid after 1 year?...
I do see both sides of it. In fact, I have stated numerous times that the 2006 draft has a chance to end up being good, and is at least average. There are some other things I would have done, such as not drafting a WR in rd. 3 and picking McNeil in the 2nd instead of DQ, but I think the philosophy was generally sound and we got some guys who look like they can play.
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can you see that the right problems are being addressed by this regime (OL, passrush, runD), even if you don't like the particular moves?...
I haven't seen any committment to the run offense or the run D. One could argue that they certainly tried to improve the pass rush w/Wimbley.
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yes, cross-Ohio isn't a commute, but that's for a regular joe...there are many NFL players that don't uproot their families with every move, and it is a short enough flight to make that a reasonable choice for Steinbach...
If you wanna think we have a legit shot of landing Steinbach, go right ahead. I don't. And I really don't want to argue about it any further.
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Rob Smith?...the C/LG?...he played in 1 game...the same game that Sowells also got his playing time...
Smith started over Sowells. As did Nat Dorsey and Butler. Not exactly the kind of moves that make me feel all warm and fuzzy about Sowells.
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so if i disagree that Robo was a coach worth keeping around, i have an agenda?...come on, man...you should know my posts well enough to know i'm not following some mob who look for guys to get fired just for the sake of change...as i said above, you don't know their technique regressed...you just know that they didn't play as much...i can't read anything about that except that we drafted guys that weren't TALENTED enough to get significant reps elsewhere...
Our wide receivers had their best years in Cleveland. I ain't the one who started this. People seem to blame Robo for our receivers problems, I strongly disagree.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Legend
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Legend
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If any coach is to blame, it is Romeo. As the head coach it is his job to pull the staff together just as much as it is his to pull the players together.
If any area was deficient in some way, it was his job to correct the problem before it got to the point half his staff was fired.....all of those guys can't be poor coaches.
Any problems in the staff are going to remain as long as Romeo is in charge of the field operations unless he makes some major improvents in his follow-up and management style.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Mo had two major problems. One was w/Davidson and the other was because he called out Coleman and Andruzzi for their poor play. The rest of it is made up BS!
So you're saying that the players actually DIDN'T go into RAC's office and bitch about him, as was reported.
Sorry, MO had far more problems than just those two (like those weren't enough *L*) that include, but aren't limited to, lacking the respect of his players, lacking the ability to outsmart opposing coaches, and lacking the ability to be a good gameday playcaller.
I never had a problem with his schemes. I always had a problem with his play selections, and whether people care to admit it or not, there's far too much evidence pointing towards it as a "major issue."
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Ask yourself is the offense improved after he left?
Doesn't matter.
Fact that you and I agree on: You can judge a QB outside of the ultimate outcome of the offense as a unit. In that same light, Mo can be a bum on a bad offense while not having enough horses to prove someone else as a better OC.
Now let me ask you a question: Who, exactly, is Mo the OC for this upcoming year? I would think that if he were really a good coach who was simply in a bad situation that SOMEONE in the NFL would recognize it and make him the OC. Fact is, he's a RB coach now.
That says it all for me.
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I ain't blaming Davidson for that poor offense. That would be hyporcritical. What I am saying is that the offense had many problems and the scheme and playcalling were not the problems.
Who was the last successful OC to call a fullback option pass? Mo was predictable at the worst times and unpredictable when it wasn't time to get cute. Like it or not, his lack of gameday coaching has, in part, led to his demise. RAC is getting the same heat, and if he doesn't turn it around, it'll be part of his undoing as well.
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If you wanna think we have a legit shot of landing Steinbach, go right ahead. I don't. And I really don't want to argue about it any further.
Money talks in this league, and if we're the high bidder, he's a Brown. We may not land him, but we have as good a shot as anyone.
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People seem to blame Robo for our receivers problems, I strongly disagree.
Maybe the uninformed, but those of thus that aren't chumps know that Bozo was a lying POS who didn't play fair with his players and earned his ticket out of town.
Instead of defending what he did here by asking how well receivers did when they left Cleveland, I'd like to hear exactly how he made things better during his time here. If there's a legit arguement to suggest that he was a good coach, I'd love to hear it. I had no idea he was a proponent of Quincy Morgan and Michael Westbrook. Those are damning statements right there, regardless and seperate of the other pathetic moves he made as the interim HC here.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Terry Pluto's Browns Notebook:
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