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We don't know if Mangini didn't want Haden. We surely don't know if what is being reported is the most accurate representation of the truth. We've certainly seen the media around here create news when there wasn't any real news.
That being said, if it was really how it went down, you're also assuming Mangini didn't want Haden at all, which may not be true. He may have wanted Haden but wanted Wilson slightly more. Just because he didn't get his first choice doesn't mean he automatically hates the second choice.
We'll probably never know the real truth of what goes on behind the scenes in any draft room so you have to take these things with a few grains of salt.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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DC and Pit...
The only reason I think about that is because we do have a solid ball player in Sheldon Brown so i worry that its possible. That being said...whoever is the better player should start...
Hopefully Haden shows that hes talented enough to start and flourish...it can only help our secondary.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Oh, I agree. Like DC said, if Mangini doesn't play Haden because he's that petty, then good riddance.
All I'm saying is that Holmgren said he would only give Mangini players Mangini wants. Now, I'm not saying Mangini didn't like McCoy or Haden. What I'm saying is, taking Holmgren's words at face value, shouldn't he have given Mangini the player he wanted *more* than Haden or McCoy?
Now, in the end, this is why we brought in Heckert and Holmgren, to run these kinds of things. I hope that if Heckert and Mangini agreed on a player and Holmgren disagreed, Holmgren would go with Heckert's and Mangini's guy.
JMHO
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
Oh, I agree. Like DC said, if Mangini doesn't play Haden because he's that petty, then good riddance.
All I'm saying is that Holmgren said he would only give Mangini players Mangini wants. Now, I'm not saying Mangini didn't like McCoy or Haden. What I'm saying is, taking Holmgren's words at face value, shouldn't he have given Mangini the player he wanted *more* than Haden or McCoy?
Now, in the end, this is why we brought in Heckert and Holmgren, to run these kinds of things. I hope that if Heckert and Mangini agreed on a player and Holmgren disagreed, Holmgren would go with Heckert's and Mangini's guy.
JMHO
Eh...I think that's really pushing it.
I think if Mangini would have put up a real fight against drafting Haden because he really didn't want him, the Browns would have drafted someone else. I think that Mangini wanted Wilson over Haden whereas Heckert wanted Haden over Wilson and Holmgren broke the tie, just like what he is supposed to do here. Reading into it more than that would be stretching the imagination.
you had a good run Hank.
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You're probably right. I certainly hope you are. Just throwing it out there for discussion. 
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Uh, weren't Robo and Francies Mangini's draft picks?
*Edit* One thing I will say that makes this a little intriguing for me is that Holmgren has repeatedly said he would never give Mangini a player he didn't want.
And, according to this article and others, he did that with Haden and with Colt McCoy.
I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon saying we're doomed, but I just find it interesting.
JMHObservation
'79, it doesn't take a big leap of logic or faith to realize that Mangini got a stay of execution, but that doesn't mean he wasn't guilty of screwing up a bunch of things. In short, Mangini is on the hot-seat. Being retained didn't make him a great coach. All it did was give him one last shot to turn things around.
When the first "Who's on the Hot Seat?" episodes appear on ESPN, Mangini is going to be #1 on the list. So why is that important? Because this is now Holmgren's show, not Mangini's, and because of that, Holmgren gets to think long-term, and no man in his right mind is going to plan around Mangini under these circumstances. Furthermore, this was Heckert's draft, too. He, like Holmgren, are long-term guys no matter what happens. He's going to do right by Mangini, but he isn't going to plan around him.
Mangini deserves a say because he's the coach, but it never was going to be a big say. He isn't quite the "lame duck" head coach, but it's damned-close. No GM or team Pres worth their salt would give into the desires of someone in Mangini's position.
If anything, I view such moves as positives. Haden was always going to be the first corner off the board. Had Mangini wanted the guy that fell to 29, that's an indictment against his judgment, as the rest of the league wouldn't have agreed with him.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Uh, weren't Robo and Francies Mangini's draft picks?
Uh,every one of the 09 picks were his..and it showed he shouldn't have been drafting at all..
I also find this interesting because it showed me that MH and those who in Haden's camp understood something..speed isn't everything..and the level of comp does play a factor ..I liked Wilson but no way was he worth a top ten pick...he went right about where he should of..
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I understand that all the '09 picks were his.
The poster I was replying to seemed to imply that Mangini didn't play Robo or Francies because they weren't "his guys."
Maybe I didn't read that post right?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Here's quote in response to another:
" wouldn't surprise me a bit. We saw it last year with robiskie, Corey Williams, the ghost, Alex hall, coye francies... And those are just the ones visible from the outside."
I think what he meant was if Genius doesn't love a player he won't play him..at least thats what Cleve's remark should mean..
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Quote:
DC and Pit...
The only reason I think about that is because we do have a solid ball player in Sheldon Brown so i worry that its possible. That being said...whoever is the better player should start...
And that's how it "will be".
Let's break this thing down a bit. Shall we? 
Last Year
Gini was "Da Man" in Cleveland. Yes, we had a GM in name, but let's be honest here, Gini was pretty much given free reign. His coaching abilities? Not bad IMO. He had to sell dicipline, something this team wasn't used to and probably resisted pretty hard. He had to sell his system to the players and get some bodies that fit his scheme in here too. So considering the talent at his disposal, I'd say he did a fair job at least.
This Year
The pecking order goes from Gini being "Da Man", to Gini being third wheel. We actually have an organization in place now. Holmgren made it plain they would all work together in this process of re-building the Browns.
Gini is the HC, no doubt about it. However, he either plays the best players and goes along with the program, or he goes. Heckert and Holmgren aren't going to sit idley by and let Gini's ego run this team. It's not going to happen.
And the players you mentioned him not playing? Was it due to decipline problems? Them actually NOT being as ready or better at that point in time over who he did play? Maybe a minor injury that wouldn't prevent them from playing, yet just enough that we would be better served starting someone else at that position?
Point being, we have no idea of what goes on behind the scenes. Yet people are willing and ready to pretend they do and speculate accordingly. So with that being said, none of us really know if your assertions were correct about last year now do we?
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Boise State cornerback Kyle Wilson(notes)
The Cleveland Browns and head coach Eric Mangini loved him, so much so that word leaked out before the draft that Wilson could come off the board with the team’s seventh overall pick. But an internal split formed between Wilson and Florida cornerback Joe Haden(notes). Team president Mike Holmgren thought Haden’s level of competition in the Southeastern Conference gave him the edge, so he broke the tie in Haden’s favor. In turn, Wilson trickled all the way down to the New York Jets at 29th overall. There’s a $15 million difference in guaranteed money between those two spots. Ouch.
This is why all Browns fans should be happy this moron isn't running the show anymore....Wilson over Haden, yeah right...Wilson is a good coverage-CB but nowhere near as complete as Haden....he's not as physical and NOT a willing tackler, while that's 1 of Haden's strengths
From what has transpired....Heckert didn't want to pick McCoy and wanted Haden over Cartman's Wilson....I admit I like Heckert more and more....maybe I would have taken the trade down in the 2nd and selected Ward later but I understand that would have been risky since Ward most probably was the last day 1 FS they had left on the board...and it was a big need
and since I have bashed Holmgren elsewhere...nice that he went with Heckert on this one...I think the SEC argument is just media BS....he trusts Heckert more (no wonder after seeing last year's rookie class on film) and/or liked Haden more himself, whatever...he gets a for that call
I'm so curious to watch all of this unfold....how long can Mangini keep swallowing his pride....this tidbits of degradation makes it almost worthwhile that he was kept 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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All Pro
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You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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'79, it doesn't take a big leap of logic or faith to realize that Mangini got a stay of execution, but that doesn't mean he wasn't guilty of screwing up a bunch of things. In short, Mangini is on the hot-seat. Being retained didn't make him a great coach. All it did was give him one last shot to turn things around.
When the first "Who's on the Hot Seat?" episodes appear on ESPN, Mangini is going to be #1 on the list. So why is that important? Because this is now Holmgren's show, not Mangini's, and because of that, Holmgren gets to think long-term, and no man in his right mind is going to plan around Mangini under these circumstances. Furthermore, this was Heckert's draft, too. He, like Holmgren, are long-term guys no matter what happens. He's going to do right by Mangini, but he isn't going to plan around him.
I think this is more just you being sour that you weren't you right that Mangini was going to be canned. All this rationalization is an attempt to save face. Others might not be able to see through it, but I can.
Mangini is so far from being a lame duck coach unless you believe in conspiracy theories that Holmgren is giving Mangini a year before he brings in Chucky.
Holmgren took the time to make an objective and unbiased decision on Mangini and chose to keep him. You like to sing Holmgren's praises yet this carries no weight with you.
Mangini's only undoing will be through his own faults. If he bucks the system in any way, he'll be gone. Sorry, bud, that's not a lame duck coach. That's a guy who's in the driver's seat. Mangini will control whether or not he gets to stay around.
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Quote:
Here's quote in response to another:
" wouldn't surprise me a bit. We saw it last year with robiskie, Corey Williams, the ghost, Alex hall, coye francies... And those are just the ones visible from the outside."
I think what he meant was if Genius doesn't love a player he won't play him..at least thats what Cleve's remark should mean..
yep, you got it. And further, it doesn't seem to take much for mangini to "not love" a player... And it doesn't seem to have to relate to on-field production, either.
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I think this is more just you being sour that you weren't you right that Mangini was going to be canned. All this rationalization is an attempt to save face. Others might not be able to see through it, but I can.
Save face?  For what? We're all wrong. Nobody is keeping score. All you see is a delusion created to explain something you don't understand. That's your right, but it's also your wrong.
When the first "hot seat" programs start, and Mangini's name is on top of the list, remember your comments and try to understand where you went wrong.
Keep in mind while I thought he'd be fired, I also defended many of the things he did even before Holmgren got here. He made numerous screwups which he rightly drew criticism for, but got little credit when the things he did was right, such as nailing Leon for all his antics, and trading away people that didn't fit like Winslow.
When most of the NFL thought he'd be fired, yet was kept, we were all stunned. Being wrong isn't anything to be embarrassed about. He was kept at long odds, and it shouldn't take a lot of understanding to comprehend that he was kept, but is on a very short leash. He was stripped of his power. His offense was scrapped. See that long-term contract extension he got?
Nah, me neither.
This isn't his ship. It's Holmgren's and Heckert's. He's not viewed as a long-term guy right now, so moves which accommodate his desires shouldn't be a priority. That means Holmgren and Heckert can do whatever they want and Mangini isn't going to say boo about it. Any fears that there's trouble in the ranks because Mangini isn't getting exactly what he wants aren't based in logic.
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Mangini is so far from being a lame duck coach unless you believe in conspiracy theories that Holmgren is giving Mangini a year before he brings in Chucky.
There's a very fine line between being a lame-duck coach and being on the hot-seat. To believe he's on the hot-seat is not the same as saying he's soon-to-be fired so that Holmgren can bring in Gruden. That IS a possibility, but it isn't a certainty. The chance remains that Mangini could turn the corner and get an extension by leading the team to a winning season, but the odds of that aren't good.
When the season starts and the inevitable talk of which coaches are on the hot-seat begin, Mangini is going to be right there. You'll see.
Quote:
That's a guy who's in the driver's seat. Mangini will control whether or not he gets to stay around.
I'm sure it was his choice to draft Haden in the 1st, to select McCoy in the 3rd, and to bring Delhomme to Cleveland. He controls coaching, but his own moves have put him in this position. Whether or not he stays around involves far more than what he can control. He's already lost that.
Quote:
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Toad, what, if any evidence do you have that makes you form such an "opinion"?
Oh, it's great speculation, a nice guess, but realy it's nothing more than that. We don't have any idea of what goes on behing the closed doors at Berea.
IMO- Unless we stink the joint up this year or unless Gini just implodes by not listenning to Holmgren and Heckert, his job is safe. There has been nothing to presume or assume otherwise.
I think your opinion is one huge leap of faith on your part because that's what you want to happen because you've offered nothing of substance to support your opinion in this regard.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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He's not viewed as a long-term guy right now, so moves which accommodate his desires shouldn't be a priority.
Toad my man,, I think the world of you and most times I agree with you (that should scare you a little) But what is making you make such a statement..
There has been NOTHING said by Holmgren or Heckert that could possibly lead you to that conclusion... Unless of course you just want it to be so....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Save face? For what? We're all wrong. Nobody is keeping score. All you see is a delusion created to explain something you don't understand. That's your right, but it's also your wrong.
A delusion to create something I don't understand?
My right but also my wrong?
Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff? If nothing else, it sure is entertaining in a comical kind of way.
I think Pit's response covered it nicely. There are others too that see what you're trying to do, but they might not speak up. At least Django is straightforward in his disgust of Mangini. He doesn't try to hide it. You can at least respect someone standing behind their convictions.
Then again, I don't think you dislike Mangini. You just dislike being wrong. All the wordsmitthing in the world won't cover it up, though.
Keep spinning spider, keep spinning ...
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This is freaky From a show on ESPN called sport science http://espn.go.com/espn/sportscience/indexYou have to use the arrow on the right to scroll to Joe Haden.. The dude is just freaky amazing... some of the other athletes they test are crazy good as well.. But haden is nothing short of impressive..
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I still love how people questioned his speed because of his 40. Hilarious.
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Quote:
This is freaky
From a show on ESPN called sport science
http://espn.go.com/espn/sportscience/index
You have to use the arrow on the right to scroll to Joe Haden..
The dude is just freaky amazing... some of the other athletes they test are crazy good as well.. But haden is nothing short of impressive..
wow!!!!!!!!! that was sick nasty!
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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That was cool
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Understanding that the situations were perfect, lab-style, that was still pretty sweet to watch.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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of course... however still fun to watch and I would guess with a little adrenaline his body would perform even better.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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I love those sport science shorts. Check out the ones on Suh (the second one doesn't have much value other than being hilarious).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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I love those sport science shorts. Check out the ones on Suh (the second one doesn't have much value other than being hilarious).
You talking about the one where he throws the guy around like a ragdoll... yeah,, 
that was good..
Haden however,, that was just crazy..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
I love those sport science shorts. Check out the ones on Suh (the second one doesn't have much value other than being hilarious).
You talking about the one where he throws the guy around like a ragdoll... yeah,,
that was good..
Haden however,, that was just crazy..
I know it's just Haden against air but that's some pretty impressive athletic prowess. As for Sue launching what may as well have been a crash test dummy, he hurled him TEN feet! That's a pretty impressive distance for a human being to move another in the air like that. I don't care what the size and weight differences are. Suh is The Minotaur Reincarnate.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
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That was awesome, and I hadn't seen it. Thanks, SBD.
A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.
John Barrymore
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j/c Why didn't we draft Earl Thomas again?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I'm pretty jacked up about the possibilities with the DBs. They really went after that hole.
Ryan's defense is under fire by some, the additions this offseason should allow him show what it can do. My only worry is DL depth, and Henderson is just sitting there waiting for us to pick him up.
I expect results this year. Teams need to start fearing the Cleveland D.
A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.
John Barrymore
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I agree. You can't give a surgeon a hack saw and a Bowie knife then expect not to have some scars. Give Ryan the tools he needs to work with and we'll have one helluva D imo
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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j/c
Why didn't we draft Earl Thomas again?
We ignored OldDawg's ratings ...
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
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Oh man,, that is just to damn wierd....LOL Nice Catch candy...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Quote:
When most of the NFL thought he'd be fired, yet was kept, we were all stunned.
We who? You and all the other "experts"? Dude, you need a break from yourself. Not everyone was "stunned". Some of "us" felt keeping him was the right thing to do and weren't surprised at all when El Presidente retained him.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
This is freaky
From a show on ESPN called sport science
http://espn.go.com/espn/sportscience/index
You have to use the arrow on the right to scroll to Joe Haden..
The dude is just freaky amazing... some of the other athletes they test are crazy good as well.. But haden is nothing short of impressive..
Very nice! Thanks, Daman.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
This is freaky
From a show on ESPN called sport science
http://espn.go.com/espn/sportscience/index
You have to use the arrow on the right to scroll to Joe Haden..
The dude is just freaky amazing... some of the other athletes they test are crazy good as well.. But haden is nothing short of impressive..
Very nice! Thanks, Daman.
Yes, very nice Daman!
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,118 Likes: 134
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,118 Likes: 134 |
You are welcome,, it's pretty neat isn't it..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Almost as fun to watch as it was for Joe H to do!
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Browns 1st Round Pick: Joe Haden
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