Yeah, the point is to keep filling the coffers of those that want to kill us is a better option than producing our own but risking a possible accident now and then.
A) We must only obtain oil from other countries, and pay them whatever they want for it.
Or
B) We should stop using oil right now, whether or not we have the ability to continue our way of life without it or not.
Or
C) It's all George Bush's fault ..... becaus of ... something ......
D) We should all walk and ride bikes or horses everywhere we go .... because there are potential hazards in anything else we might do ..... so let's do nothing .....
Perhaps it's something else. Who knows? I stopped trying to figure out how Mac thinks a long, long time ago.
In th end, it was a horrible accident ..... one that should be investigated .... will be cleaned up ..... and still should not stop us from investigating any and all means of providing for our own energy future ..... including additional off-shore drilling.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: His attempt at a point is that, somehow, an oil spill is an anti-GOP talking point.
If that's the case, wow.. Obama finally figured out that drilling off shore was something we needed to do also.. so if that's his goal,, it's a swing and a miss..
This was a major accident.. A BP exec just was on the today program this morning and pretty much said, it is something they fully expect to have to pay for.. No excuses,, just a horrible horrible accident.
As far as I'm concerned, we should be drilling and exploring for OUR OWN oil rather than rely on the Middle East.. we've made them wealthy beyond belief.. which is fine, but not when that wealth may be financing attacks on the US..
Environmentally, I'd rather we didn't have to do this.., I'd rather have electric cars or cars that run on Natural gas (propane), wind generated power, Nuclear Generated power etc etc.... but that's not completely practical yet...
I'm hoping we get to that point.. and I'm confident we will but probably long after I'm gone is my guess..
Until then, I'm ok with Drilling off shore.. But BP and the other Oil Companies need to be way more careful..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
He didn't seem nearly as concerned over the coal mine disaster that killed people in WV... maybe because "clean coal" use is a democratic talking point.... yet the GOP is the one with the agenda..
I expect we will be hearing more and more about this being an attack on the United States. Accidents happen, but this massive rig not only caught on fire - it exploded and it sank. That is very atypical, from what I have read and heard on the news. Not only that, failsafe devices and redundant failsafe devices ... failed. It is very suspicious.
The question would be, who would do this, and is it an act of war? There is already speculation all over the internet about North Korea detonating a mini-submarine under the rig, along with various other conspiracy theories involving eco-terrorists (eg; Greenpeace), Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Cuba, and others being responsible. I only know that there are thousands of offshore drilling rigs out there and if there is a threat to them, we better get on top of it fast. Stopping offshore drilling cannot be the answer, unless you are in favor of $12.00 per gallon gasoline.
Agreed, this is a terrible thing. There is nothing funny about an environmental disaster like this. It doesn't matter what side of politics you are on, we need to figure out how to stop something like this from ever happening again.
Quote: I expect we will be hearing more and more about this being an attack on the United States. Accidents happen, but this massive rig not only caught on fire - it exploded and it sank. That is very atypical, from what I have read and heard on the news. Not only that, failsafe devices and redundant failsafe devices ... failed. It is very suspicious.
The question would be, who would do this, and is it an act of war? There is already speculation all over the internet about North Korea detonating a mini-submarine under the rig, along with various other conspiracy theories involving eco-terrorists (eg; Greenpeace), Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Cuba, and others being responsible. I only know that there are thousands of offshore drilling rigs out there and if there is a threat to them, we better get on top of it fast. Stopping offshore drilling cannot be the answer, unless you are in favor of $12.00 per gallon gasoline.
Wow,...new angle there. Had not thought of that,....
Quote: Mac,, are you just posting these articles as informational pieces or are you trying to make a point?
First...I want to thank the ref who added my articles to this existing thread...I completely whiffed that one...thanks.
Daman...I posted the information because it was being discussed on a national level. I posted the info early and took advantage of the nice day to go fishing....
This could be the worst national disaster to hit the mainland of the USA, "ever"...the drill baby drill issue is pertinent because we are now experiencing a worst case scenario...thus drill baby drill needs to be re-examined.
Quote: I other conspiracy theories involving eco-terrorists (eg; Greenpeace),
Well this is not the type of thing that Greenpeace likes to get involved in,Greenpeace is actually nothing more than a protest and legislation reform type group. There are some eco groups out there that are very militant and I wouldnt put this past. I was in Miami a few years back with the AFL CIO to participate in a FTAA protest march at the WTO meetings and got to walk around and talk to a lot of different people from various eco groups. There are some extremist groups that are waaaaaaay out there.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
Quote: thus drill baby drill needs to be re-examined
I believe the "drill baby drill" slogan had more to do with Anwar in Alaska, than offshore drilling. But that would fit your political agenda.
I also think that until it is fully investigated, that BP shouldn't be crucified....yet. It has been reported that many of the alarms and failsafe devices were readily accessible to the workers, and that the explosion and fire seemed to be extrordinary in this case. I don't want to suggest it was terrorism, but I wouldn't put the thought away. I would use the term "sabotage" first.
There are dozens of other countries still drilling in the gulf as we speak. This catastrophe is very rare. Sometimes rare things happen. I'm sure at some point politics will become involved in the decisions to suspend drilling or not. It will be a very convenient time for the environmental lobby to flex their muscle. And as weak as politicians are when money is involved, it is only a matter of time until it happens.
I predict the name "Haliburton" arises on the left wing medias agenda soon also. They are so predictable it is laughable. I also can't wait to see how Emmanuel uses this crisis to attack his political enemies and further his agenda using the press, who are blatantly in his back pocket.
In all honesty, both political sides use catch phrases, talking points, scare tactics and use the media in every way they can to get that message across.
To that end, it's a two way street IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: Agreed, this is a terrible thing. There is nothing funny about an environmental disaster like this. It doesn't matter what side of politics you are on, we need to figure out how to stop something like this from ever happening again.
I agree 100%, I also ask why no safety valves for shut off are not installed on these oil rigs???
Quote: But both Bush and Obama pushed for more off-shore drilling. They didn't agree on much, but they did on this issue.
Well and there was that whole corporate welfare bailout thing... and continuing the wars in the middle east.. and of course ballooning the size of government... and adding entitlement spending programs... remind me again what it was they did NOT agree on?
Quote: I believe the "drill baby drill" slogan had more to do with Anwar in Alaska, than offshore drilling. But that would fit your political agenda.
eryz..."drill baby drill" has been a RW slogan chanted, written and tweeted since first spoken by Palin during the 2008 campaign...a slogan used by RWers until recently.
After Obama announced his decision to open up coastal waters to drilling a month ago, RWers were repeating the "drill baby drill" slogan...here is a CNN short story...
McCain to Obama: 'Drill baby, drill' Posted: March 31st, 2010 web page
(CNN) - The "drill baby, drill" rally cry is back.
Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, on Wednesday hailed President Obama's decision to open U.S. coastal waters to oil and natural gas drilling.
Arizona's senior senator, who faces a tough Republican primary fight this year, tweeted: "Drill baby drill! Good move – where are Reid and Pelosi on this?"
During the 2008 presidential campaign, McCain - as well as his running mate Sarah Palin - wholeheartedly favored offshore drilling as gas prices rose throughout the country.
I'm not the only one to ask, what happened to the RW/GOP chant "Drill baby Drill"....since the oil rig caught on fire and sunk. Do a search and you will find many major news sources have asked the same question I asked.
Quote: I predict the name "Halliburton" arises on the left wing medias agenda soon also.
eryz...it sure is easy to predict something like your "Halliburton" claim...AFTER IT ALREADY HAPPENED...LOL... ...
read the excerpts below the Wall Street Journal story, dated "4 days ago"...
Drilling Process Attracts Scrutiny in Rig Explosion
APRIL 30, 2010
An oil-drilling procedure called cementing is coming under scrutiny as a possible cause of the explosion on the Deepwater Horizon rig in the Gulf of Mexico that has led to one of the biggest oil spills in U.S. history, drilling experts said Thursday.
Concerns about the cementing process—and about whether rigs have enough safeguards to prevent blowouts—raise questions about whether the industry can safely drill in deep water and whether regulators are up to the task of monitoring them.
The scrutiny on cementing will focus attention on Halliburton Co., the oilfield-services firm that was handling the cementing process on the rig, which burned and sank last week. The disaster, which killed 11, has left a gusher of oil streaming into the Gulf from a mile under the surface.
Federal officials declined to comment on their investigation, and Halliburton didn't respond to questions from The Wall Street Journal.
Quote: Wow,...new angle there. Had not thought of that,....
New angle to tilt the foil hat, maybe...
Who thinks North Korea could really get a mini-sub into the carribean without the US Navy knowing it?
NDTU, but these conspiracy theories are pretty far out there. Obama did it? North Korea did it? Environmental groups did it? Halliburton did it? It was an accident. It happened because it's a dangerous activity with the consequences of mistakes being dire and damn-near uncontrollable. We need to improve our technology, particularly in the area of safety, if we're going to engage in aggressive oil collection like this. Right now, it's just irresponsible, and "sorry, we didn't mean to" isn't good enough to keep doing it IMO.
Quote: Wow,...new angle there. Had not thought of that,....
New angle to tilt the foil hat, maybe...
Who thinks North Korea could really get a mini-sub into the carribean without the US Navy knowing it?
NDTU, but these conspiracy theories are pretty far out there. Obama did it? North Korea did it? Environmental groups did it? Halliburton did it? It was an accident. It happened because it's a dangerous activity with the consequences of mistakes being dire and damn-near uncontrollable. We need to improve our technology, particularly in the area of safety, if we're going to engage in aggressive oil collection like this. Right now, it's just irresponsible, and "sorry, we didn't mean to" isn't good enough to keep doing it IMO.
Who said they did,...? I never thought I'd see a day like 9-1-1 either.
All I said was, it's an angle.
Agree on the safety and irresponsibility,...we need to drill.
The congressional investigators probing the Deepwater Horizon disaster are turning up intriguing information that point to a litany of technical and human problems with the well whose failure has led to a spreading environmental crisis caused by the non-stop gushing of crude oil into the Gulf of Mexico.
Major-accident investigators often say that there's usually a number of failures that create a big calamity. The picture painted emerging from the congressional investigation seems like another case of that.
House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman said Wednesday that congressional investigators learned that the well failed a critical pressure test hours before the explosion. The test indicated that gas from the oil reservoir was leaking into the drill pipe in a way it shouldn't have.
Here's a large chunk of Waxman's statement to give those who want them a lot of the details. Other readers can just skip it.
WAXMAN: This is an important test. During a negative pressure test, the fluid pressure inside the well is reduced, and the well is observed to see whether any gas leaked into the well through the cement or casing. According to James Dupree, the BP senior vice president for the Gulf of Mexico, the well did not pass this test. Mr. Dupree told committee staff on Monday that since test results were not satisfactory and inconclusive, significant pressure discrepancies were recorded. As a result, another negative pressure test was conducted. This is described in the fourth bullet. During this test, 1400 PSI was observed on the drill pipe while zero PSI was observed on the kill and the choke lines. According to Mr. Dupree, this is also an unsatisfactory test result. The kill and choke lines run from the drill rig 5,000 feet to the blow-out preventer at the sea floor. The drill pipe runs from the drill rig through the blow-out preventer deep into the well. In the test, the pressures measured at any point from the drill rig to the blow-out preventer should be the same in all three lines. But what the test showed was that the pressures in the drill pipe were significantly higher. Mr. Dupree explained that the results could signal an influx of gas was causing pressure to mount inside the well bore. Meanwhile, the chairman of the Energy and Commerce subcommittee holding the hearing, Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.), said the investigation has uncovered a number of problems with the blowout preventer that should have cut the flow of gas and oil up the pipe which in turn led to the explosion.
I'll sum up much of his statement for readers who don't want all the details. Those who do can read the lengthy passage of his statement after this.
Stupak focused on all the problems with the blowout preventer whose job it was to shut off the pipe in the event something went wrong. Suffice it to say, there appears to have been many. The problems ranged from a dead battery, to equipment that was improperly wired, to other equipment that was too underpowered to seal off the pipe.
Many words will likely come to the minds of those who hear the details of all the things that went wrong. "Competence" probably won't be one of them.
Here's a lengthy section from Stupak's opening statement:
STUPAK: Our investigation is at its early stages, but already we have uncovered at least four significant problems with the blowout preventer used on the Deepwater Horizon drill rig. First, the blowout preventer had a significant leak in the key hydraulic system. This leak was found in the hydraulic system that provides emergency power to the shear arm -- to the shear rams, which are the devices that are supposed to cut the drill pipe and seal the well. I'd like to put on the screen a document that the committee received from BP. This document states, "Leaks have been discovered in the BOP hydraulic system." The blowout preventer was manufactured by Cameron. We asked a senior official at Cameron what he knew about these leaks. He told us when the remote operating vehicles tried to operate the shear rams, they noticed a loss of pressure. They investigated this by injecting dye into the hydraulic fuel, which showed a large leak coming from a loose fitting, which was backed off several turns. The Cameron official told us that he did not believe the leak was caused by a blowout, because every other fitting on the system was tight. We also asked about the significance of the leak. The Cameron official said it was one of several possible failure modes. If the leak deprived the shear rams of sufficient power, they might not succeed in cutting through the drill pipe and sealing the well. Second, we learned that the blowout preventer had been modified in unexpected ways. One of these modifications was potentially significant. The blowout preventer has an underwater control panel. BP spent the day trying to use this control panel to activate a variable-bore ram on the blowout preventer that is designed to seal tight around any pipe in the well; in other words, pinch off the flow of oil. When they investigated why their attempts failed to activate the bore ram, they learned that the device had been modified. A useless test ram, not the variable-bore ram, had been connected to the socket that was supposed to activate the variable-bore ram. An entire day's worth of precious time had been spent engaging rams that closed the wrong way because it was wired wrong. BP told us the modifications on the BOP were extensive. After the accident, they asked Transocean for drawings of the blowout preventer, because the modifications -- the drawings that they received did not match the structure on the sea floor. BP said they wasted many hours trying to figure this out. Third, we learned that the blowout preventer is not powerful enough to cut through the joints in a drill pipe. We found a Transocean document that I'd like to put on the screen, and it says, "Most blind shear rams are designed to shear effectively only on the body of the drill pipe. Procedures for use of BSRs must therefore ensure that there is no tool joint opposite the ram prior to shearing." This seemed astounding to us, because the threaded joints betweenthe sections of drill pipe make up about 10 percent of the length of pipe. If the shear rams cannot cut through the joints, that would mean the so-called fail-safe device would succeed in cutting the drillpipe only 90 percent of the time. We asked the Cameron official about the cutting capacity of the blowout preventer on the Deepwater Horizon. He confirmed that it is not powerful enough to cut through the joints in the drill pipe. He told us that this was another possible explanation for the failure of the blowout preventer to seal the well. And fourth, we learned that the emergency controls on the blowout preventer may have failed. A blowout preventer has two emergency controls. One is called the emergency disconnect system, or EDS. BP told us that the EDS was activated on the drill rig before the rig was evacuated. But the Cameron official said they doubted the signals ever reached the blowout preventer on the seabed. Cameron officials believe the explosion on the rig destroyed the communications link to the blowout preventer before the emergency sequence could be completed. In other words, the emergency controls may have failed because the explosion that caused the emergency also disabled communications to the blowout preventer. Still, the blowout preventer has a dead man's switch, which is supposed to activate the blowout preventer when all else fails. But according to Cameron, there were multiple scenarios that could have caused the dead man's switch not to active. One is human oversight. The dead man's switch may not have been enabled prior to installing the BOP on the ocean floor. One is a lack of maintenance. The dead man's switch won't work if the batteries are dead. The dead man's switch is connected to two separate control pods on the blowout preventer. Both rely on battery power to operate. When one of the control pods was removed and inspected after the spill began, the battery was found to be dead. The battery in the other pod has still not yet been inspected. There also appears to be a design problem. The dead man's switch activates only when three separate lines that connect the rig to the blowout preventer are all severed -- the communication, power and hydraulic lines. Cameron believes the power and communication lines were severed in the explosion, but it is possible the hydraulic lines remained intact, which would have stopped the dead man's switch from activating. These are not the only failure scenarios that could impair the function of the blowout preventer. The Cameron official we met with described many other potential problems that could have prevented the blowout preventer from functioning properly. Steel casing or a casing hanger could have been ejected from the well and blocked the operations of the rams. The drill pipe could have been severed successfully but then dropped from the rig, breaking the seal. Or operators on the rig could have tried to activate the shear rams by pushing the shear-ram control button. This would have initiated an attempt to close the rams, but it would not have been successful. The shear rams do not have enough power to cut drill pipes unless they are activated through an emergency switch or the dead man's switch. In fact, we uncovered an astonishing document that Transocean prepared in 2001 when it bought the blowout preventer from Cameron. I'd like to display the executive summary of this document. It says there are 260 separate failure modes that could require pulling of the BOP. According to this report, the predominant failures included ram locking mechanisms. How can a device that has 260 failure modes be considered fail-safe?
Hey, mac, didn't BP donate a huge amount to O's election fund? And then, shortly after he was elected, BP got the okay to bypass some typical red tape? Hmmm.......I'll have to look into that. After all, had W been the president when this happened you'd be blaming him for it.
Happened on Obama's watch, don't really care what happened before Obama, what shortcuts were taken, what protocols were ignored... doesn't matter. Fact is Obama had over a year to fix those problems and he didn't.... and if his response and the clean-up effort isn't squeeky clean perfect, well then that's his fault too.
I try not to blame and point fingers politically,...they're all in the same bed. We need to drill, but overlooking safety is not doing it right. The prices wouldn't come down anyway,...
I tell you DC...I don't get it.....people are just not seeing your humor.....I think maybe you are being too subtle and people just need to be hit in the face with a sledge hammer...LOL
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
How is this a political issue? This is an industrial accident. It has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats. Yes, the government is involved in assessing who is at fault and trying to protect the coastline but saying that the accident is the fault of a politican is like trying to blame the Wright brothers for an airplane crash..... Politics is too far removed from this.
Its a horrible accident but it doesn't lay at the feet of a political party.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Oh my dear sweet naive Cannuck friend.... nothing is too far removed from politics, especially when you have a government that wants its hand in monitoring and regulating everything.
If you read my post with your sarcasm glasses on and think of the things that were said after 9/11 (which wasn't the fault of any political party either)... or after Hurricane Katrina (which wasn't the fault of any political party either).. perhaps you will see where I'm coming from...
Because right now, lives are being ruined, local economies crushed, an ecosystem destroyed.... and our federal government is doing nothing to stop it.
Oh my dear sweet naive Cannuck friend.... nothing is too far removed from politics, especially when you have a government that wants its hand in monitoring and regulating everything.
If you read my post with your sarcasm glasses on and think of the things that were said after 9/11 (which wasn't the fault of any political party either)... or after Hurricane Katrina (which wasn't the fault of any political party either).. perhaps you will see where I'm coming from...
Because right now, lives are being ruined, local economies crushed, an ecosystem destroyed.... and our federal government is doing nothing to stop it.
Missed the sarcasm smiley.....although the point stands for alot of folks.
Interesting point you raised though about government as regulators. I, for one, think that is an appropriate role. Who else would be an appropriate regulator for oil and gas development?
Good point. There can always be arguments that regulations aren't stringent enough and that becomes a contributing factor.
However, isn't that contrary to how many Americans feel about government? As to put in more regulations and rules, you need a larger bureaucracy which, to my understanding, is something that many Americans can't abide by.
Gas and oil drilling ought to be the easiest thing to regulate .. especially in today's world.
Set up a simple system of fines for specific infractions.
For example: Minor oil spill: $1 million fine plus the cost of clean-up.
Major spill (like the current spill) $10 million fine plus the cost of the clean-up.
The structure could be tweaked as needed, and I only chose 2 categories and fines for an example, but others could be added.
Specific violations would lead to specific fines. Eliminate the arbitraty and non-specific and politicized double talk and deal in specific measures.
Then we would get:
Company A applies for a permit to drill in a specific area. There is a problem, and they create a specific violation and enviromnetal problem. The company is fined for their violation, and they also pay 100% of the clean-up costs.
Make the fines steep enough and companies will take extra measures to ensure that preventable accidents do not occur.
Measures that make companies regulate themselves are always more effective than outside regulation with unspecified consequences.
It's much like an auto accident. The at fault party pays for the damages .... and also pays a fine. Why over-complicate everything?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
What I am saying though is that it is almost impossible to regulate and inspect each and every day at each and every site.
Set consequences (and make them severe) for specific damages caused by the specific industry. Accidents like this one could also be a determinig factor for licensing future drilling sites. Then step back and let them regulate themselves. If they want to go out of busines, then they'll be careless. If they want to succeed, then they'll be careful and make sure that they do everyhting they can to eliinate disasters like this one.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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