DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum The emancipation proclamation

Let me help Pit here.

Everyone opposed to Pit believe blacks deserve a free ride due to slavery. They want the white man to pay for it. This insuates it's the white mans fault.

People with common sense know that the North (against slavery) was mostly whitey's. They got ticked and won the civil war, many many of the "awful" white man died to win the war, which ultimately freed the slaves.

So why should the white man pay? Shouldn't the black man pay the white man for freeing him after his ancestors were sold by their leaders - or even by themselves into slavery?

It appears that your link supports my theory that the War was fought primarily to rejoin the Union. If your source believes that slavery would have died on it's own thatt's any interesting but irrelevant thought. I wonder if you were a slave would you be happy to know that eventually your system of bondage would end sometime in the next 20 years or so??? I didn't think so.

Lincoln had no mandate to stop slavery by force...however he had a Constitutional duty to preserve the Union which overroad all else. Slavery was considered a states rights issue although Lincoln and the majority of Americans felt that slavery needed to be ended immediately.

Try reading what I say instead of making stuff up. Blacks and Whites have fought side by side since the birth of this Nation, whites don't have a monopoly on dying for OUR freedom. The Civil War was not fought to end slavery. Slavery was an underinglying cause of the tensions between the north and south but it was not the main reason the war was fought. The reason for the war was the peservation of the Union.

Yes Ralphie, we agree that the main cause of the war was to perserve the Union. Your question however was do I think the abolitionists would have been able to end slavery without the war so how is the information I provided in answer irrelevant to that question?

If I had the same type of personalitiy I have now I doubt I would be content to sit by and wait for slavery to end. I believe I would have hooked up with the abolitionists and escaped or died trying.

Of course since I've never been taken away from my parents and sold or been whipped or seen anyone else get whipped so it's easy for me to say that. If I was the slave of an owner that didn't do any of those things maybe I wouldn't have known any other way than slavery and I would have accepted my lot and wanted for freedom in heaven. It's hard to know what I would do there are so many variables. There's also no way of knowing when or how slavery would have ended without the war but it doesn't change the fact that the main cause of the war was peservation of the Union.

I'm not advocating a 'free ride'. I'm advocating playing catch up until there is a level playing field, which there isn't. And I'm not asking the 'white man' to pay for it. I'm asking America to pay for it. I think it's Pit and yourself who are equating 'the white man' into it.

It's not the white man's fault. It's America's fault.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, slavery has absolutely nothing to do with it. We're not apologizing for slavery...we're correcting the fact that we denied blacks an education up until what, 50 years ago? Yes, slavery is a part of that...but the issue is education, not slavery.



The same reason the Asian man, the black man and every other man should pay - because they're American, and they should want to see a country they're proud of.

I would be proud of a nation who treats everyone equally and shows no favoritism towards anyone. It's equality for all.

Not a nation who still lives during the civil war in their minds and keep trying to use the past as an excuse for showing favoritism now,or in the future.

I would be proud to live in a country where my grandchildren get the same "equal" chance for EVERY scholarship out there,not dicriminated against becuse they're white. That would make me very proud.

I do see that.

You are out of your mind.

So why do you continually ignore the posts where I tell you that Blacks had as much involvement in the building this country and fought and died for it since it's inception? You never seem to want to comment on that. Why is that?

Funny I thought that's what the orignal thread said was the case. First you said there is no longer racism and now there is. How'd that happen?

Just clickin' here...

Yeah the Civil War was not all about slavery... it was just a part of the problem. Wasn't it more that the confederate states wanted more power to govern themselves than what the north wanted, a larger government governing states? Something like that I believe... but slavery wasn't what it was over.

Because I paid attention to your post that said we would discuss this at a later time in person.
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I find it rather odd actually. Lincoln was the one who advocated and passed the adoption of black soldiers fighting for the north in the civil war. Untill then,they weren't even in the fight,unless the south used them in their military and I'm unaware of it.

But as Americans,all races should be fighting to protect our nation. You see,a "public school" gereration last 13 years if you include kindergarden. There has been busing to promote equal oppertunity in education for over three "educational generations" now.

There's no need to live in the past and use it as an excuse under the pretext of "educational oppertunities" which only serve to discriminate other races. And those goes for all races.

So make up my mind sweety. Are we going to keep discussing this here.or in person later?

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sure there is racism.....racism is normal....and nothing wrong with it IMO.

If you use it as a reason to hold someone down it is, but people of different cultures/background have been segregating for centuries.


It is a normal human condition.

You didn't pay attention when you made that comment with the roleyes smiley.

And WRONG!!! Black fought in the Revolution so they fought long before Lincoln was a glimmer in his daddy's eyes. Blacks and Whilte were not in the same units until the Korean war but they've fought and died all the same since the beginning. You don't want people living in the past but you seem to be saying that Blacks owe their freedom to Whites. You also said there is no longer racism then you brought up all the stuff about the NAACP and UNCF as being racist. How can they be racist if there is no racism? You keep changing the tune.


I stopped the discussion about clubs since you didn't want to answer who should decide what clubs should be allowed and how they should spend money raised. I had planned on letting this thread die too but then someone else asked me a question so it's still alive.

Good synopsis. There's a link in one of the previous posts that gives more detail.

So they freed themselves. Thanks for that bit of twisted history.

Would you like to elaborate on how they built the armies,controled our government,wrote civil rights legislation and passed it too? Oh yeah,it was 50/50.

It was that great black presidentt and the black congress that approved civil rights legislation and all those great black senators too.

The white man was just an idle,reluctant cog in the wheel. I'd be very interested in what percentage of our troops were black during the revolutionary and civil wars. Now that would be interesting.
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You can try to re-write history if you like,but it's pretty obvious to anyone that cares to look,that without people like Lincoln and the Kennedys,there wouldn't be the progress in this country that there has been.

Slavery or freedom was not in the hands ofd black America. All legislation that's lead to where they are now,was proposed and passed by a white government no matter how hard you seem to try and dismiss that fact.

Once again you make stuff up instead of reading what I wrote. I said they fought along with Whites and HAVE SINCE THE INCEPTION OF THE COUNTRY. What part if that is so hard to understand? You're the one rewriting history and denying a major challenge in our country.

African Americans In The Revolutionary Period

Blacks In The Revolution

Blacks, who understood the literal meaning of patriot rhetoric, eagerly took up the cause of American freedom, fighting bravely in the early confrontations with the British. Though the revolution freed some blacks and set the country on a course toward the abolition of slavery, political accommodation to plantation owners forestalled emancipation for many blacks in the south for 90 more years.

A black man was one of the first martyrs of the patriot cause. Crispus Attucks, apparently a slave who had run away from his owner 20 years before, died in the Boston Massacre in 1770. Though facts were disputed at trials then as now, witnesses said Attucks hit a British officer with a large piece of firewood, grabbed a bayonet and urged the crowd to attack just before the British fired. Attucks and two others were killed while eight were wounded, two mortally.

Blacks served at the battles of Lexington and Concord. Peter Salem, a freed slave, stood on the green at Lexington facing the British when the first battle broke out with the shot that was heard around the world. One of the last men wounded in the battle as the British escaped to Boston was Prince Estabrook, a black man from West Lexington.

At least 20 blacks, including Peter Salem, were in the ranks two months later when the British attacked an American position outside Boston in the Battle of Bunker Hill. Salem has been honored for firing the shot that killed Major John Pitcairn, the British officer who led the Redcoats when they had attacked his small unit at Lexington.

Unable to venture outside Boston and then threatened with cannon surrounding the city, the British left Boston for New York. As the war changed from a Massachusetts endeavor to a broader conflict throughout the colonies, the politics of race changed dramatically.

Blacks had been welcomed in the New England militia, but Congress initially decided against having them in the Continental army. Congress needed support from the South if all the colonies were to win their independence from England. Since southern plantation owners wanted to keep their slaves, they were afraid to give guns to blacks.

Congress ordered all blacks removed from the army, but black veterans appealed directly to George Washington, who took up their cause with John Hancock, president of the Continental Congress. Blacks serving in the army were allowed to stay, but new enlistments were forbidden.


web page

1770-1783







At least 5,000 African Americans, free and unfree, served in the Continental Army and Navy of the American Revolution, the largest numbers coming from Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island.






1812-1814



Several thousand African Americans helped to defend Washington, DC, Philadelphia and New Orleans in the U.S. British War of 1812-14.



1845-1848



At least 1,000 African Americans, mostly seamen in the U.S. Navy in the Gulf of Mexico, participated in the Mexican War.


1851-1865




The services of some 186,000 African American soldiers, spread among some120 regiments, and some 29,000 Black seamen contributed significantly to the Union victory.


1870-1890



Until the 1890s, the soldiers, being some 2,500 African Americans, served. In the West in the 8th and 9th Cavalry and the 24th and 25th Infantry.



1898-1890




In the Spanish American War, three all Black units- the 8th Illinois, the 9th U.S. Volunteers and the 23rd Kansas, along with 2,000 Black seamen - represented Black participation.



1914-1918



In World War I, 367,000 African Americans entered military service, the 369th, 370th, 371st Infantry regiments being the most famous for valor.



1941-1945



In World War II, 700,000 African Americans were in the U.S. Army, 165,000 were in the Navy, and 497,000 served overseas.



1964-1974



In Vietnam, African Americans numbered 16,500 in the Army, 3,500 in the Marines, 908 in the Air Force, and 500 in the Navy.


web page

Too bad the AMERICAN History we learned growing up left out a lot of facts.

I don't believe I'm the only one ignoring facts here. What percentage of the total revolutionary war soldiers were black? How about the civil war?

And you totally ignored how it was a white government and white politicians who passed all the civil rights bills in existance. And it was Lincoln who wrote the emacipation proclamation.

Explain to me who passed these laws? Explain to me how it could have even been possibly concievable how ANY of the legal rights,include voting,fair housing,bussing and equal oppertunity in employment would have ever happenned without a white government supporting and passing such legislation.

I'm seriously interested in that part Lama. Without white politicians,none of these things would be law and you know it. But for some reason,you think it was equal? Well explain to me how the great black American administration gave their own people all of these rights? It simply didn't happen.

I'm glad it's not up to you. My ancestors related to my surname were not in this country during the Civil War, and obviously owned no slaves. They were in the Columbus area.

My mother's family came over after the New England colonies were founded. They weren't on the Mayflower, but they weren't far behind it. The Puritans weren't big on slave ownership.

My dad's mother's family was on the shore watching the boats come into the Jamestown/Williamsburg area of Virginia. Under your plan, I should be entitled to land that was taken from them for the betterment of this country. I personally like the King's Mill area in Williamsburg, and I would prefer the government return my prime real estate promptly.

To top this off, I was watching a program on TV where scientists were tracing the roots of blacks to their tribes using DNA. The reporter they tested (black male) was traced back to Germany on his mother's side, and England on his father's side. I guess this guy doesn't qualify for an education, as his ancestors were obviously not from Africa.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't own anyone in this country any money just because of their color or country of origin. The only people I owe are a couple of credit card companies, a mortgage company, and some utilities companies.

200,000 Americans fought in the Revolutionary war all together. You do the math.


286,000 Americans fought in the war of 1812


over 78,000 Americans fought during the Mexican war. Still doing the math?


There were over 2,800,000 Union soldiers in the Civil war.And combined forces of 3,867,ooo tropps during the civil war.


In this war? Almost 307,000 troops.



4,743,800



16,353,000 troops.

Did they help? Yes. But once again,you seem to think without white soldiers,politicians and law makers,they would have been freed? Who provided the bulk of the loss of life to insure their freedom?

Who wrote and passed the legislation passing civil rights? I'll give the credit for the "percentage due" but looking at it from a factual perspective,who really owes who here?

I think neither race owes the other anything. Nor do I feel either race has any right to discriminate on any oppertunity in America for any American based on race. And that includes affirmative action. All you need to do is use basic math to see who has paid the brunt of the price. No sense discriminating against anyone now.

Recourse for statistics.
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm

I provided statistics above and facts above you must have missed a post or two. So if it wasn't enough it doesn't count that they fought?

I'm not ignoring the fact that White men were involved in building this country but you certainly want deny that anyone else contributed. The only reasons that White men put the laws on the books back then is because Black people and women were denied a voice in government. But women Black and White and Black and White men fought to make it apparent that those laws were necessary. The lack of a poltical voice through the vote didn't stop Blacks and Women from making their voices heard or contributing to society and fighting to get those rights.

Funny how you keep saying we're all Americans and there's no racism but you keep acting like White men did everything for everyone and no one else fought and died along side White men for the Freedom we enjoy. Does saying racism still exists dishonor all who fought for this country or just the White men?

Oh so I see it doesn't count that they fought if there weren't enough of them allowed to fight because the large majority were still being held in bondage for. That seems fair.

Oh and if you want to "do the math" check the census figures and see what the ratios of Whites to Blacks was if you want to figure out if the ratios the served are in line with the overall population. Regardless it doesn't change the facts that we ALL contributed to the building of this country.

Once again you're making up things that I NEVER said. Where exactly have I denied the contribution White men made to this country?

For someone who doesn't think either race owes the other anything you certainly seem to want to discount one group's particpation.

I just have to jump in on this one. Sorry.

Yes, blacks fought for this country. They fought for this country when they were considered sub-human. The buffalo soldiers basically tamed the west, and they weren't considered human enough to marry Indian women.

The Chinese built the railroads and infrastructure of many western cities. They were treated as sub-human too. Mexicans were more accepted during the founding of this country, but not by much.

So?

I had no part an any of this countries past attrocities, and I can verify that most of my family had no part in them either. Why should I or my family owe them because we're white?

I already can't apply for a government 8-A contract, because I'm a white male. Those contracts are only open to minorities and women that own small companies. I can't apply for a great deal of scholarships and grants because of the same reason. Affirmative action does not help those of us that were born white and male. Oddly enough, I can do as little about the conditions of my birth as I can about this countries troubled past. I'm not saying that people should forget the past, but I don't think anyone should suffer for circumstances they did not create.

No,not at all.
I'm giving them kudos for the role they played. And by looking at the numbers,was a small minority in a supportive role. That's why I feel their race,as well as mine,deserves no special privilages.

And it's most gracious of you to "not ignore the fact that White men were involved" but that's a gross understatement if I've ever heard one! Involved? Maybe you need to look at those troop numbers and look again at who wrote and voted for civil rights when it passed.

Ah yeah,we were "involved" all-right.
<img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

Credit is fine where credit is due. But too much credit is not happening with me.You know as well as I do who has paid in lost life and which race wrote and sponsored the passing of civil rights one more time just in case you don't realise how "involved" we were.. There's no point showing even more evidence of this because the facts seem to have no bearing on the discussion for you.

You feel that hundreds of thousands of dead white during the civil war are somehow equal to the very small percentage of blacks who were involved in that same war.

You feel that two dead Kennedys are not as much value as one MLK. You wish to compare an equal price paid by both races in our wars from the civil war on back,when in reality,it was a very small percentage of blacks who even were in those wars at all.

You see equality through a slanted view of the facts as they present themselves. That's why discrimination against the white race is more previllant now than ever. Because even though we DID pay the bulk of the price through our deaths,through our political process,we deserve no credit,only blame.

Oh I forgot,we were "involved".
<img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Though they payed by only a small fraction of those deaths,or even troop numbers in these wars,I guess it takes ten white deaths to equal one black death? It must be that new math I've heard so much about.

So????

I was responding to

It's funny how people want to continue to say racism isn't a part in our social consciousness but then prove that it is

Dwelling on the past only cripples the future. Learning from it and looking forward will bring about equality,not discriminating against the white race.That only creates tensions that perpetuates racism and does nothing to solve it.

Every time a white American is discriminated based on race,more tension develops. But some just don't get that concept.
<img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yes,they prove it is by finding excuses for discrimination against other races.And trying to convince others that racism is fine,as long as it's directed towards a race other than their own.

I was talking about you and several others on this and the other thread. You said racism doesn't exist then proceeded to say that Blacks, Italians, Irish and everyone else is racist. Everyone but you. Try starting with the man in the mirror.

For the most part I really agree with you. I mean seriously, every one of us is prejudice in some way.... it's just to what extent are you prejudice? Most people have some ideas (some misconstrued) about people of other races. That's there. I mean to say "We shouldn't see race" or to expect that is unrealistic. I mean culturally we're different-all of us- so to get over that just isn't realistic. That kind of racism is okay... it's only wrong to do so when you're prejudices hurt, are used as hate, are negative and untrue, or if you use them to put somebody down. If we stay away from that, and maybe on occasion keep a sense of humor, we'll be okay.

Oh really?
Why isn't it racist to discriminate against whites?
So if you have prograns that exclude whites,that's not racist? When the poster above doesn't qualify for a business loan because he's a white male,that's not racist?

Pretty funny Lama. It's only racism if it doesn't apply to the white race? We're the only ones that it's "acceptable" to discriminate against? We're the only ones who are racist if we make clubs supporting our pride in our race?

We're the only ones guilty of making racial slurs? While others can use racial slurs against us?

[b]What I'm saying is,the white race faces as much discrimination and racism directed towards us,as anybody else. I'm not using it as an excuse in my life and it's high times all Americans quit using the past to promote the racism towards others now. I don't use these "facts" as an excuse to ask for "special privilages for my race" even though they do exist. And every other race is no better than mine and it's time they quit expecting favoritism as they call it. Because their "favoritism" is just semantics for discriminating against others.

But since I don't agree with my race being discriminated ahainst,I expect the type of comments you make. Because it's wrong for a white man to point out the obvious truth in this country.

But I'm going to do it anyway.
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm cool with my roots. I am proud of my roots. I don't think my roots are better than anybody eles's roots overall, but my roots make better moonshine than most other roots. Does this make me a racist?

Now before we go off and say racism is ok as long as no one is hurt by it, we probably should look at the definition of the word.

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1865?70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

Main Entry: rac?ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac?ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/racism

I think it would be wise too consider the literary definition of the word, when discussing it IMHO.

I said racism existed and is a challenge in our society and you insisted it didn't. Where did I say racism effected one race or one ethnicity? I said it effects our country. If you feel discriminated against than racism is obviously still in existence and effects you. So how can you say it doesn't exist? hmmmmmm

What I'm saying is I don't dwell on it. Yes,I've pointed out that it exists. against all races to some extent.

My point is,dwelling on it,magnifying it and using it as an excuse for "special privilages" only amplifies and perpetuates it.

I don't use the race issue to get special treatment. I don't use it to expect special programs to get an unfair advantage over another race. By doing that,it only inflames and perpetuates more discrimination and racism.

Only when we work together as a people,as all of us being Americans,can this issue ever get better. All of us getting "equal oppertunities" regardless of race,can racial barriers be overcome.

Having a double standard between races by legal and social acceptance,even further divides us as a people. And I don't promote affirmative action for that veryreason. It only serves to embitter white people and continue an increasing racial divide because of its very premise.

Oppertunities are out there for all. No race of people in this nation deserve special programs geared to discriminate against any other race.

The only "challenge" is that people use racism as an excuse to discriminate against other races and it's time for that challenge to be met.

That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard (and I remember when people thought Kelly Holcomb was going to the Pro Bowl).

So we agree that racism exsists and is not an excuse not to succeed but an obstacle to be overcome. I think where we diverge from agreement is that I believe some have more to overcome than others.

Another place where we disagree is the issue of "special priviledges". I don't see how clubs and organizations providing support and scholarships to members are "special priviledges". And you say that people shouldn't have the right to form clubs that support and celebrate their ethnicty. I see it as a way to overcome the obstacle of racism by educating not only the members but the general public about the hetitage of different ethnicities. You see it as separtion and "specail priviledges".

What I'm not clear on is do we agree that ALL Americans took part in building this country? From your arguments about ratios of those who fought and such I get the impression that you are discounting the efforts of those who were not White men. Is that the case?

You mean the facts that skin color didn't need to be even mentioned when it came to what color a persons skin was when they served their country? That is a fact that should be left out because it just doesn't matter.

Racism has become a business.....as long as people can make money heading race oriented orginizations, it will always remain.

When those clubs have exclusionary memberships then it is. Blacks (and women) in this country have worked long and hard to break down the color (and gender) barrier to country clubs and social clubs on the basis that they are being denied business opportunities from not being allowed in... many of these clubs offer scholarships to the children of members, white children. And while they are fighting this discrimination and inequality on one hand, you have the United Negro College Fund on the other hand providing millions of dollars in scholarships exclusively to black kids... some people don't have a problem with that, others do. It's obvious that Pit does and so do I... maybe you don't.... that's up to you.

I just don't see how one race, gender, or ethnicity can demand access to ALL clubs, while maintaining their own exlusionary rules for their own clubs... that's the part I don't get.