|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842
Legend
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842 |
Tux...I just read that Bush may have borrowed more from Japan than China...did you include that into the Bush figures?
Also, there is interest on both loans that Bush used to pay for his wars...did you include the interest on Bush's War loans?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
web page
What is The Heritage Foundation? That is the group responsible for that graph.
Let's see:
heritage.org
About Heritage.org
Become a Member Today!
WOW, become a member of the group just like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity!!
And as the site itself proclaims:
"Conservative Policy Research and Analysis"
That is one heck of an unbiased site. No way they agree with either Republicans or Democrats. It isn't a think-tank!! Oh wait, IT IS a think-tank for Republicans!!!
umm Charlie. did you read the part at the bottom where they say where the numbers came from? is the Washington Post now a think-tank for Republicans as well?
here it is:
Quote:
UPDATE: Many Obama defenders in the comments are claiming that the numbers above do not include spending on Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bush years. They most certainly do. While Bush did fund the wars through emergency supplementals (not the regular budget process), that spending did not simply vanish. It is included in the numbers above. Also, some Obama defenders are claiming the graphic above represents biased Heritage Foundation numbers. While we stand behind the numbers we put out 100%, the numbers, and the graphic itself, above are from the Washington Post.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
Quote:
Tux...I just read that Bush may have borrowed more from Japan than China...did you include that into the Bush figures?
Also, there is interest on both loans that Bush used to pay for his wars...did you include the interest on Bush's War loans?
You really think that interest adds up to $1 Trillion dollars?? or let me put that figure in a different way..
You really think that interest adds up to $1000 Billion dollars?? Or let me draw you a picture
. = $1 Billion
.................................................................................................... = $100 Billion
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
.................................................................................. = $1 TRILLION
Last edited by ~TuX~; 07/21/10 04:40 PM.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
Here's another picture for you mac
Bush's deficit over 8 years:
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
..................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
..................................................................................
Obama's over 2 years:
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
..................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
..................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
......................................................................................................
..............................................................................
Last edited by ~TuX~; 07/21/10 04:43 PM.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
Tux...I just read that Bush may have borrowed more from Japan than China...did you include that into the Bush figures?
And the country of origin matters how?? It's a very simple number mac ... income minus spending. Do we need to break out the sock puppets and crayons to better explain this?
Quote:
Also, there is interest on both loans that Bush used to pay for his wars...did you include the interest on Bush's War loans?
Yes ... it does ... for the years he was in office. It also includes interest on the debt inherited from Presidents before him ... You know what it doesn't include? Interest from 1.5 trillion in deficit spending that we currently have, which is going to be a LOT more than the interest you're talking about.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831 |
Quote:
Quote:
So that huge jump from 2008 to 2009 can't be blamed on Obama, it's purely George Bush's doing.
... and uh, the Democratic majority in Congress, that you know ... helped draft and approve the whole thing.
Oh, I'm not arguing that. I have a great amount of dislike for the Senate in general, my point is that Obama has done plenty of wrong as President but he can't be blamed for that huge spike in 2008, the Republicans' are just as dirty as the Democrats'.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831 |
The article starts off with the sentence "Obama has repeatedly claimed that his budget would cut the deficit by half by the end of his term." which is why I'm talking about the budget proposals. The group..Heritage? is framing the argument that Obama budget=bad, Bush budget=good and I was just attempting to point out some of the details in that chart that are designed to be misleading.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
Quote:
The article starts off with the sentence "Obama has repeatedly claimed that his budget would cut the deficit by half by the end of his term." which is why I'm talking about the budget proposals. The group..Heritage? is framing the argument that Obama budget=bad, Bush budget=good and I was just attempting to point out some of the details in that chart that are designed to be misleading.
Bush's spending has been bad, but Obama is just blowing it out of the water. The problem here is just that some people try to paint Obama has a better spender than Bush and that Obama can do no wrong.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
For a second, assume that the numbers in the Heritage graph are correct. If they are not, and somebody can show me they are not, then I will listen but until I see otherwise, I will proceed from the standpoint that they are correct..
As far as Obama budget = bad and Bush = good.. I don't think either of them were particularly "good".. but look at the trends.. The deficit under Bush grew out of the Clinton recession until 2004 then it had been heading back down for 3 years.. then the housing collapse and it spiked... ok, it spiked, thats awful, TARP money, whatever.. it spiked... but, and this is the part that I find important from the whole thing.. until the economy collapsed because of the banking problems, the deficit was getting smaller from 2004 to 2007 and I will even be willing to give some credit to a democrat congress for that... now under Obama, whether you look at the White House projections or the CBO projections, it goes down after the spike then it continues to climb.. less or more depending on which projection you believe but it is GROWING at a significant pace... so remove the spike and it's still growing.. blame the republicans for the spike but under Obama its still growing.. and it's growing above the highest point Bush ever had it until the spike....
At some point even the most hardened liberal has to look at that and realize where its coming from... President Obama.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962 |
I'm gonna get my butt kicked here for what I'm about to say,, But MOST of this countries financial problems rest squarely on the shoulders of the two presidents prior to Obama. Clinton and Bush.
Yet, this president is getting kicked in the teeth from every angle as if he's done all the damage himself.
Has Obama done everything right? Of course not. No president ever has, why the hell should he be different.
But to even consider laying everything at his feet is just plain crazy.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 |
Quote:
Has Obama done everything right?
No, he has done just about everything wrong though. I wouldn't expect you to agree on that, you've been his biggest fan since way back when you were "undecided" on who you were going to vote for.
He's going to make things worse in the long run, and that is why he's getting so much crap from people with more than half a brain. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962 |
Quote:
Quote:
Has Obama done everything right?
No, he has done just about everything wrong though. I wouldn't expect you to agree on that, you've been his biggest fan since way back when you were "undecided" on who you were going to vote for.
He's going to make things worse in the long run, and that is why he's getting so much crap from people with more than half a brain.
You couldn't be more wrong about me.. but telling you anything has always been a problem.. you make up your mind and it gets stuck in the muck..... think what you like..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Would you like to supply any figures that dispute those deficit numbers?
He'd LOVE to, but he can't. All he can do is attack the source, even if the facts make the source correct.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Tux...I just read that Bush may have borrowed more from Japan than China...did you include that into the Bush figures?
Also, there is interest on both loans that Bush used to pay for his wars...did you include the interest on Bush's War loans?
Now you're down to arguing interest costs????????????????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
Quote:
I'm gonna get my butt kicked here for what I'm about to say,, But MOST of this countries financial problems rest squarely on the shoulders of the two presidents prior to Obama. Clinton and Bush.
Yet, this president is getting kicked in the teeth from every angle as if he's done all the damage himself.
Has Obama done everything right? Of course not. No president ever has, why the hell should he be different.
But to even consider laying everything at his feet is just plain crazy.
You do not get an extra $1 trillion in deficit spending from previous administrations. Obama is not running a trillion dollar deficit, he is running a 1.5 trillion dollar deficit. The largest deficit before Obama's deficits never reached even 0.5 trillion dollars. How does the previous two administrations cause Obama's deficits which has been larger than the amount of total deficits of Bush's 8 years?
Last edited by ~TuX~; 07/21/10 09:32 PM.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
I'm gonna get my butt kicked here for what I'm about to say,, But MOST of this countries financial problems rest squarely on the shoulders of the two presidents prior to Obama. Clinton and Bush.
Yet, this president is getting kicked in the teeth from every angle as if he's done all the damage himself.
Has Obama done everything right? Of course not. No president ever has, why the hell should he be different.
But to even consider laying everything at his feet is just plain crazy.
You do not get an extra $1 trillion in deficit spending from previous administrations. Obama is not running a trillion dollar deficit, he is running a 1.5 trillion dollar deficit. The largest deficit before Obama's deficits never reached even 0.5 trillion dollars. How does the previous two administrations cause Obama's deficits?
and that $1.5 trillion (1,500,000,000.00) doesn't even include the health care thing.
And, I'm curious here: does it include all of the "stimulus" package that absolutely, positively had to be passed over night, immediately, or does it only include the half that has been spent well over a year later?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,510
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,510 |
Quote:
And, I'm curious here: does it include all of the "stimulus" package that absolutely, positively had to be passed over night, immediately, or does it only include the half that has been spent well over a year later?
The cynic in me might suggest a potential for political payback when the public eye wanders from this huge pot of money which is just lying around ...... waiting ..... waiting ...... waiting ...... for someone to spend it ..... or "appropriate" it .........
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
Quote:
Quote:
Tux...I just read that Bush may have borrowed more from Japan than China...did you include that into the Bush figures?
Also, there is interest on both loans that Bush used to pay for his wars...did you include the interest on Bush's War loans?
Now you're down to arguing interest costs????????????????
Like I have said, mac is searching for mysterious imaginary spending numbers to make Bush's deficits to be bigger than Obama's, but it is hard to match a trillion more dollars a year.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,803
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,803 |
Quote:
Quote:
Has Obama done everything right?
No, he has done just about everything wrong though. I wouldn't expect you to agree on that, you've been his biggest fan since way back when you were "undecided" on who you were going to vote for.
He's going to make things worse in the long run, and that is why he's getting so much crap from people with more than half a brain.
Your job situation sucks but at least we get a benefit from it....Your quick wit! Love you Jules.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,803
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,803 |
Quote:
Quote:
Tux...do your Bush numbers include the cost of the two wars?
tux...do your numbers... 2008: 458.55 Billion
...include the cost of Bush's 700 Billion TARP?
Question...When all of Bush's Tarp money gets paid back with interest, who gets the credit?? Careful now, I don't want your head to explode thinking about it...
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Tux...do your Bush numbers include the cost of the two wars?
tux...do your numbers... 2008: 458.55 Billion
...include the cost of Bush's 700 Billion TARP?
Question...When all of Bush's Tarp money gets paid back with interest, who gets the credit?? Careful now, I don't want your head to explode thinking about it...
It's already happening. To be fair, GM is starting to pay back their TARP and they are a year behind the others (though have only paid back $1.3bil of $49bil taken).
Here it is in charts:
http://www.visualeconomics.com/a-detailed-look-at-tarp/
No surprise that AIG was considered the riskiest bailout, doing the worst with the $$$, and have yet to pay anything back. AIG should have been allowed to FAIL. (yes mac, I realize who bailed them out and am not happy about it).
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,803
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,803 |
What Mac won't mention is that the House Republicans held up the TARP money and almost killed it. Many caved in the end because they bought into the doom and gloom predictions that came from the White House (Bush) and the Senate (Democrats and Republicans).
I still think Bush was wrong.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
Quote:
What Mac won't mention is that the House Republicans held up the TARP money and almost killed it. Many caved in the end because they bought into the doom and gloom predictions that came from the White House (Bush) and the Senate (Democrats and Republicans).
I still think Bush was wrong.
Bush was wrong on a lot of things, just as Obama is proving to be..The only difference is that Bush is cheaper..
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 798
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 798 |
Quote:
For a second, assume that the numbers in the Heritage graph are correct. If they are not, and somebody can show me they are not, then I will listen but until I see otherwise, I will proceed from the standpoint that they are correct..
As far as Obama budget = bad and Bush = good.. I don't think either of them were particularly "good".. but look at the trends.. The deficit under Bush grew out of the Clinton recession until 2004 then it had been heading back down for 3 years.. then the housing collapse and it spiked... ok, it spiked, thats awful, TARP money, whatever.. it spiked... but, and this is the part that I find important from the whole thing.. until the economy collapsed because of the banking problems, the deficit was getting smaller from 2004 to 2007 and I will even be willing to give some credit to a democrat congress for that... now under Obama, whether you look at the White House projections or the CBO projections, it goes down after the spike then it continues to climb.. less or more depending on which projection you believe but it is GROWING at a significant pace... so remove the spike and it's still growing.. blame the republicans for the spike but under Obama its still growing.. and it's growing above the highest point Bush ever had it until the spike....
At some point even the most hardened liberal has to look at that and realize where its coming from... President Obama.
Those numbers were projections from March 2009. We now have real numbers for 2009.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=&chart=G0-fed&units=b
The real numbers are about 1.4 trillion versus the projected 1.8 trillion on the Heritage graph (from CBO and the White House).
I wouldn't worry too much about the projections out to 2019; if the projections from March 2009 through the end of 2009 were off by around 20%, how can CBO/the White House accurately predict what will happen years from now?
(Not directed at DC in particular, but the general discussion) It's somewhat silly to try to blame the huge deficit right now on any one side in particular; it's largely a function of the recession. All the stimulus/bailouts are a combination of increased spending and tax breaks. And tax revenue went down due to economic contraction. All are largely one time things; the stimulus/bailouts/tax breaks won't be around in a few years. Also, as the economy recovers, tax revenue will increase. So it's not really fair to extrapolate a deficit from the middle of a recession out several years.
Last edited by tjs7; 07/22/10 06:25 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
jc..
You guys are all taking macs bait of the Bush vs Obama thing every time in every thread.
The best way to handle this would be to let him spout off his "Bush did this... Bush did that." and either don't reply at all, which is what he does when he has been shown facts, or don't use Obama or Bush in any of your responses and leave it all generic.
We all know that both have been fiscally irresponsible. I think when we all look back on this in 20-30 years, we are going to see this 12 year period of presidency as the biggest failure of America in it's history.
Let's just hope we learn from it and come out a stronger country in the end. That these years may be what brings the citizens together to fight for their country, and to hold it's politicians responsible for the decisions they make.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 07/22/10 07:24 AM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962 |
Quote:
Quote:
I'm gonna get my butt kicked here for what I'm about to say,, But MOST of this countries financial problems rest squarely on the shoulders of the two presidents prior to Obama. Clinton and Bush.
Yet, this president is getting kicked in the teeth from every angle as if he's done all the damage himself.
Has Obama done everything right? Of course not. No president ever has, why the hell should he be different.
But to even consider laying everything at his feet is just plain crazy.
You do not get an extra $1 trillion in deficit spending from previous administrations. Obama is not running a trillion dollar deficit, he is running a 1.5 trillion dollar deficit. The largest deficit before Obama's deficits never reached even 0.5 trillion dollars. How does the previous two administrations cause Obama's deficits which has been larger than the amount of total deficits of Bush's 8 years?
I never said you get the Trillions from previous admins, but what you get is problems that make it necessary to do things that you wouldn't ordinarily do..
Bush had to contend with the free wheeling lending machine.. Obama has to deal with the tax cuts which were fine by themselves, but add to that the collapse of the housing market which had much to do with the banking collapse. then add in the cost of the wars.
I don't care who would have been president,, they'd of had a mess to contend with,..,
And now, Obama is gonna leave another mess to clean up.
Last edited by Damanshot; 07/22/10 07:50 AM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
I'm gonna get my butt kicked here for what I'm about to say,, But MOST of this countries financial problems rest squarely on the shoulders of the two presidents prior to Obama. Clinton and Bush.
Every president inherits things from the previous... economic issues, global issues, domestic issues, etc.... we are 18 months into Obama so I think it is fair at this point to judge his response to what he inherited and what he has created.... He inherited a bad situation, and by all accounts has made it a trillion times worse... Whether its in 2 years or (God forbid) 6 years, he will leave his successor a nightmare to deal with. The economy at that point might be humming along, unemployment might be down, etc.. but the underlying nightmare he has created will haunt Presidents for decades..
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,510
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,510 |
I agree with you. Look at how the Bush administration handled things. Part of his handling of the economy involved Fed manipulation of interest rates. I'm not a big fan of that ... because it winds up being a disincentive to savings, and hurts those who try to do the right thing. It does almost force people into investments as opposed to standard savings .... and I think that was the point more than controlling inflation. I don't remember any widespread disagreement on Fed monetary policy from the Democrats at the time either. Hell, I actually agreed with it at the time. Having the ability to look back ...... I have to now reconsider my thinking, and conclude that it was a mistake. Low rates and no savings led to easy credit and the mess we saw unfold before our eyes. Here we are in 2010, with nowhere for the Fed to go as far as monetary policy is concerned ... and in an environment where federal deficit spending has gone through the proverbial ceiling ..... yet inflation is not running rampant. The one thing that does help the deficit is that we are borrowing money at damn near 0% as a result of the Fed's actions. I really think that the funnelling of capital away from traditional savings combined with eliminating most interest from the federal debt were larger factors that staving off inflation. However, Fed policies geared towards eliminating savings in the private sector combined with the stock market taking a hit combine to create a situation where people have no savings ..... and were ill prepared for an economic downturn. I was a HUGE opponent of federal spending on TARP. I hated the idea of having this huge "relief" fund that would rescue financial institutions from themselves. The bill was close to a trillion dollars ..... and last time I checked, less than $300 billion has been repaid. Not only was the bill too large and widespread in its scope .... there were few controls on the allocation of funds. Try to figure out where money went, to whom, what were the terms, and how much has been paid out, been repaid, or just lost into the ether somewhere ..... Good luck. Then we got the "Stimulus" bill. It was an emergency measure. Had to be passed immediately. I could have supported a smaller and more focused bill ..... but this thing was so unweildy that they haven't even figured out how to spend it all. That's a good thing, but hardly speaks to an emergency situation. What has been spent so far ..... on what ..... to whom ... and how much has been repaid? Good luck finding the real answers to these questions as well. The biggest thing that concerns me about TARP and the Stimulus bill are that they set precedent. "The last guy spent a trillion on ..... so we should be able to do the same ......." Pretty soon it's a trillion and a half ....... or more ...... One more thing ........ neither Party is willing to allow the economy to correct itself. In most cases, the economy is pretty damn resilient. However, both Parties have taken the approach that the economy is glass, and will shatter if it starts to bottom a bit. Building a false foundation for the economy will not work. It did not work with the dot.coms. It did not work with the stock market. It did not work with the housing bubble. Yet ... somehow ...... a false foundation for the economy, built on borrowed Federal funds will work for a while ..... but then the foundation collapses .... and we've spent a lot of money ..... and we're still sliding ........ and heading for a crash. My thoughts are a little jumbled ... (medication) but I think that my points still come through somewhere. lol The recession starting at the end of Clinton's 2nd term led to actions taken by Bush, which accelerated following the 9-11 attacks .... and which worked in the short term ..... which emboldened longer term thinking on the same policies .... which led to a situation where there was nowhere for the Fed to go .... which brought about "cheap money" (as far as federal deficit borrowing and spending) ,,,, which brought about huge spending bills with little or no ability for close oversight ...... and now, here we are.  Both Parties are to blame. Both Parties take a short term approach, whether or not it is in the nation's long term interests. Something has to change or we're going to be in huge trouble, and probably sooner rather than later.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,962 |
Quote:
Quote:
I'm gonna get my butt kicked here for what I'm about to say,, But MOST of this countries financial problems rest squarely on the shoulders of the two presidents prior to Obama. Clinton and Bush.
Every president inherits things from the previous... economic issues, global issues, domestic issues, etc.... we are 18 months into Obama so I think it is fair at this point to judge his response to what he inherited and what he has created.... He inherited a bad situation, and by all accounts has made it a trillion times worse... Whether its in 2 years or (God forbid) 6 years, he will leave his successor a nightmare to deal with. The economy at that point might be humming along, unemployment might be down, etc.. but the underlying nightmare he has created will haunt Presidents for decades..
To a great extent, I agree with that. But this situation is maybe the worst it's been.. And I guess you agree given that you already said he was handed a "bad situation".. But I think that is a gross understatement..
A "bad situation" is maybe a downturn in the economy OR a war.. But to have a recession that is the worst since the Great Depression (hard to argue with that, but some will I suppose).
Two wars that some question are even winnable where we are spending gobbs of money..,
Rising costs of ...well, everything.
And a bunch of other stuff that just makes me ill to speak of, but it's there.
No No,, I think it's way worse than a bad situation.
And I know this sounds as if I'm defending Obama.. I'm really not. If McCain had been elected, he would have had to deal with the same "bad situation". And I suggest that while he wouldn't have done some of the things that Obama did or wants to do, he'd of had about as much success as Obama.
JMO however.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,510
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,510 |
The thing that I look at is spending.
The 2011 budget is projrcted to be $3,8 trillion.
2010 federal budget was at $3.55 trillion. We then have to add in stuff like the $36 billion in unemployment extension and other unpaid for bills.
2009 federal spending was $3.5 trillion.
2008 was $2.99 trillion
2007 was $2.8 trillion
2006 was $2.6 trillion
2005 was $2.4 trillion
2004 was $2.3 trillion
That's a pretty big jump when the country was heading into recession.
We cannot spend our way to prosperity ...... but we damn sure try.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Also, let us not forget that a great deal of military spending is often left out of those numbers.
Those numbers are larger than they appear.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
Quote:
Also, let us not forget that a great deal of military spending is often left out of those numbers.
Those numbers are larger than they appear.
and medicare....
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Fair enough.. my point was that Presidents don't just get to start at 0... none of them get to do that....
Maybe I get too defensive but I've encountered the "Bush inherited a surplus" argument too many times when in fact.. that is bull. There was a "perfect world" projected surplus if the tech bubble didn't pop, when in fact it already had... but what he really inherited was a growing recession with job losses etc.. I also get defensive (probably too defensive) when they talk about the banking collapse as well, the roots of that go back 25 years as policy shifted toward bad loans to unqualified people.. but people act like the banking industry was perfect then Bush messed it up.. hell if the banking collapse had been held off for a couple more years would it have been fair to blame the whole thing on Obama?
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
if the banking collapse had been held off for a couple more years would it have been fair to blame the whole thing on Obama?
Yes we could have and not because he is president but because he is a black man. Well that's what some think our rational is.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
Quote:
We sure could use those millions of manufacturing jobs lost, outsourced, off-shored...to China and other slave labor wage countries... during the GWBush years...couldn't we?
Quite possibly the most hilarious, uninformed post I have seen in a long time.
Blaming anyone but the companies is going to be a stretch in such a case. The fact of the matter is that American Workers *read: Unions* priced themselves out of range for companies and they found cheap labor elsewhere.
It was only going to be a matter of when these jobs were going to be lost, not if.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842 |
Quote:
they found cheap labor elsewhere.
Spoken like a true RWer who continues to support "slave labor" wages.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
Quote:
Quote:
they found cheap labor elsewhere.
Spoken like a true RWer who continues to support "slave labor" wages.
Or maybe I just understand that cheap labor should not cost an arm and a leg if I run a business?
I don't support "slave labor" wages, just that some jobs should not pay that much. That's Capitalism 101.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842 |
Quote:
I don't support "slave labor" wages, just that some jobs should not pay that much. That's Capitalism 101.
Only in America do some worry about what "working class" folks make and ignore what the CEO or upper management or lower management make or if their contribution is worth the amount being paid...
...but the guy who punches a time clock and busts his butt for 40 hours or more a week...you worry about him...you worry about how much he makes?
Only in America..
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
...but the guy who punches a time clock and busts his butt for 40 hours or more a week...you worry about him...you worry about how much he makes?
Only in America..
Aside from the time clock thing - you're talking about me mac. I WAS middle class America. I'm struggling to stay there. You see, I'm not some big ritzy business owner that has people working for me. I pay an accountant in April to do my taxes. I do EVERYTHING else for this business. I answer the phone, I return phone calls, I do the billing and the collecting, I do the actual job, I do the sales tax, I do the the routine maintainance on my equipment, I do the repair work I can do, I do the scheduling - did I mention I am the one that goes out to your house and does the work?
In short - I AM what you profess to care about. And trust me - you have no clue how stupid your ideas are. None. You sound like my brother - one of them anyway. The one that has never, in the last 21 years, worked for anyone or anything other than a gov't. agency of some sort.
The views you espouse do nothing but HURT the people you claim to "stand up" for. Sad thing is, you appear to be ignorant to that fact.
Tell me, mac - why would a lowly peon like me - mr. lower middle class america - not agree with your whole thought process? It's not because I'm rich. Far from it bud. In fact, I've seen a decrease in net sales for the last 3 years. My expenses haven't changed much.
In fact, I have seen my federal income tax remain exactly the same. And yes, bud, I pay quarterly, and I'm DAMN up to date on what I pay and I know exactly what that amount is.
My income has decreased. Yet I'm against all the things you rail for...........amazing, isn't it?
Edit to say this: 40 hours a week? In my dreams. I wish I could work only 40 hours a week.
Last edited by archbolddawg; 07/22/10 02:53 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,588
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,588 |
You're a radical RW'er.
I figured we should just get that argument out of the way.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Republicans Thwart Bill With
Unemployment Aid, "AGAIN" - contd.
|
|
![[Linked Image from i190.photobucket.com]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z33/booger52/phpGGRdhwAM.jpg)
