|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,075
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,075 |
Quote:
Damn. I was looking forward to having an on site masseuse.
Completely off-point, but I just can't help a reminiscence...
About 15 years ago, I played in a jazz/rock/alternative quintet with a sweet young violist who was the niece of Sir Roland Hanna.
During our 'howjadoos,' she mentioned that her day job was deep-tissue (therapeutic) massage.
I said: "Wow! This is the first time I've ever met a masseuse..." to which she said:
"And you still haven't met one. I'm a deep-tissue massage therapist. A masseuse wears a bikini..."
flames.
crash.
smoldering remnants.
abject embarassment.
We've been cool ever since, however. I guess she never held it against me, because we've become great friends and cohorts since then. Wish I'd had the chance to play with her uncle... he was the shizz.
Hey, Michele... make sure you read the rental contract's fine print, y'hear?
p.s. This has been a most interesting thread. I've been truly been enjoying it.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
That's part of the beauty of this country, you and I could not disagree more in our views of the world, but we can still root for the Browns....although, I'm surprised you support such a capitalistic sport! 
As capitalist as it is (and it very much is), I might have to cite an earlier poster in the sentiment that the NFL is possibly the most successful socialist venture in the United States (outside, of course, police, fire, etc.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
I understand that most Euros are arrogant and elitist and condescending toward Americans because they feel intellectually superior.. I get it. I also get that Europe is fairly densely packed and everybody drives wee small cars, lives in flats and uses public transportation.. I get that also. I get that y'all don't understand why anybody would want to own a few acres or a few hundred acres and you really don't like people with a self-sufficient attitude who can hunt and fish and clean their own meat and basically survive even if the whole world around them just diappeared... that kind of stuff makes us less intellectual and some how inferior... I get it. and posting a German comedian (I always assumed that was an oxymoron) talking about dictators and how to spot them and how to make them and how to stop them..... that's great.. really it is... If there is a country on this planet with a worse personal track record regarding dictators than the US.. it's Germany. We could back, not back, arm, disarm, overthrow, and walkaway from 50 more dictators and STILL not be responsible for as many dictator caused deaths as Germany... Quote:
problem in the US is: only a select few can AFFORD education...the cynic in me tells me it's set up to be this way systematically to maintain exploitation.....
Don't know what the cynic in you is saying but the logic in you should tell you that it's just not true...
Quote:
same with privatized health care....it's a joke, the USA is the last so called "civilized" country to run it this way....it's all about priorities and distribution of wealth....this is the main fallacy of capitalism: it's NOT natural, it's MAN MADE
So what then is the "Natural" state of things that capitalism has so rudely upset? The natural state of things is to want less? To eek out an existance with only the bare necessities? To share all of ones possessions in some communal fashion with all of your neighbors?
Quote:
but I've met lots of american citizen over here, most being stationed here, so Military people, most of them from the poorer spectrum of your society...most of them did everything in their power to stay here and the unanimous opinion was that over here the standard of life was much higher and much safer place to live...
You used the word "most" three times.. this would lead me to believe that you think that greater than 50% of all of the servicemen and women that are stationed in Europe seek desperately to stay there. I seriously doubt that. I talk to people too. I have friends and co-workers from all over the world. they all like it here (that's why they are here because they were not shipped here by the military, they CHOSE to come here and they choose to stay)... so there. 
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
1. As PhilDawsonRocks said: the NFL might be the most "socialist" pro sports league's around the world thanks to their salary cap system....I think this "socialist" or let's say: "reasonable" rule has set the NFL apart from the MLB...of course now we're headed towards MLB-like structures and thus MORE capitalism (of course the NFL as a whole is a capitalist organization, almost anything around is)....and I'm sure it will turn off some fans over time.
BTW: the draft system almost in ALL major pro sports league is a pretty socialist system too...the worst team getting the best shot at getting the next star. If it was capitalist, Strasburg, LeBron or Joe Thomas would have gone to the highest bidders
2. It IS true: the % of College degrees from poor or middle class families are relatively low. "The U.S. ranks 10th among industrial countries for percentage of adults with college degrees." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States#cite_note-wp100606-5) ...and from all I've experienced and got told by people who worked or studied in universities here and there it is MUCH easier to get a degree in the US than in Europe...so overall: less education at a much higher cost. Great country...this is volitional, there's enough proof out there that it can be done differently but then again you couldn't brain wash your people as good with something as absurd as FOX "news"....that's where you guys get close to North Koreans (as much as you hate to hear it). This channel wouldn't work anywhere in Europe, I can guarantee you that and my suspicion is it has to do with the level of education
3. Natural state of things? There isn't one, that's actually my point....this means WE are responsible for the system and level of opression/freedom we live in but it can be changed (after all looking at human history it has been changed a lot over the centuries)....it can be made more reasonable. Capitalism is very rational in its game but not reasonable (there is a huge philosophical distinction between the 2 terms) and their axiomatic is pretty irrational or even schizophrenic...the morally deprived CEOs are just pupppets who don't understand why everybody's pointing fingers at them....they really don't get it, for them they have acted absolutely "rational" within the system and have done nothing wrong...and you know what? They are right....this global economic crisis was a huge chance to finaly understand the silly axiomatic or nature of this system...instead we point fingers at CEOs and greedy bankers, newsflash: that's their job. This envious pointing fingers just revealed that the common man is a capitalist itself (just on the losing side, thus much poorer) and instead of realizing that we ALL sustain this system (almost every middle-class guy has his own capital in stocks, thus staking the casino-like players/bankers/companies), we point fingers and want culprits...names, the new bad guy, Bernie Madoff....ah it's easier to hate when you can locate the bad guys right? The "bad" part of the system (it's not all bad in capitalism) is greater than a select few puppet names that the socially sustained system created
4. Of course, there are enough Military people who can't wait to get back...but I haven't met one who said because of living standard....family, love etc are much stronger after all. "most" poor people from even poorer countries who came here to work want to go back home even though they love it here and earn much more here. Socially and emotionally it's totally normal to get back "home" but I was amazed at the number of people I've met that wanted to stay here, I even remember one yet undecided saying that he'd love to get alll his loved ones over here.
So, what about the homeless rate in the US?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
1. As PhilDawsonRocks said: the NFL might be the most "socialist" pro sports league's around the world thanks to their salary cap system....I think this "socialist" or let's say: "reasonable" rule has set the NFL apart from the MLB...of course now we're headed towards MLB-like structures and thus MORE capitalism (of course the NFL as a whole is a capitalist organization, almost anything around is)....and I'm sure it will turn off some fans over time.
BTW: the draft system almost in ALL major pro sports league is a pretty socialist system too...the worst team getting the best shot at getting the next star. If it was capitalist, Strasburg, LeBron or Joe Thomas would have gone to the highest bidders
Interesting take, never gave it much thought in that context.
Quote:
2. It IS true: the % of College degrees from poor or middle class families are relatively low. "The U.S. ranks 10th among industrial countries for percentage of adults with college degrees." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States#cite_note-wp100606-5) ...and from all I've experienced and got told by people who worked or studied in universities here and there it is MUCH easier to get a degree in the US than in Europe...so overall: less education at a much higher cost. Great country...this is volitional, there's enough proof out there that it can be done differently but then again you couldn't brain wash your people as good with something as absurd as FOX "news"....that's where you guys get close to North Koreans (as much as you hate to hear it). This channel wouldn't work anywhere in Europe, I can guarantee you that and my suspicion is it has to do with the level of education
A lot of college education has to do with the work environment of your society. In the US, there is a wide array of jobs that do and do not require a higher education. A recent study showed that more people are foregoing college to enter the workforce immediately and work their way up like their grandparents, and that the need for a college degree right now is not as highly needed as it has been the last 10-15 years.
Do I agree with the report? I'm not sure, but I do believe things go in cycles and we could easily be coming back around.
I would rather have an employee who can learn the trade the way I need him to and have a desire to learn than some snot nosed brat who thinks because he has a degree he knows it all and is hard to work with. And yes, that has been my experience in the last few years.
Quote:
3. Natural state of things? There isn't one, that's actually my point....this means WE are responsible for the system and level of opression/freedom we live in but it can be changed (after all looking at human history it has been changed a lot over the centuries)....it can be made more reasonable. Capitalism is very rational in its game but not reasonable (there is a huge philosophical distinction between the 2 terms) and their axiomatic is pretty irrational or even schizophrenic...the morally deprived CEOs are just pupppets who don't understand why everybody's pointing fingers at them....they really don't get it, for them they have acted absolutely "rational" within the system and have done nothing wrong...and you know what? They are right....this global economic crisis was a huge chance to finaly understand the silly axiomatic or nature of this system...instead we point fingers at CEOs and greedy bankers, newsflash: that's their job. This envious pointing fingers just revealed that the common man is a capitalist itself (just on the losing side, thus much poorer) and instead of realizing that we ALL sustain this system (almost every middle-class guy has his own capital in stocks, thus staking the casino-like players/bankers/companies), we point fingers and want culprits...names, the new bad guy, Bernie Madoff....ah it's easier to hate when you can locate the bad guys right? The "bad" part of the system (it's not all bad in capitalism) is greater than a select few puppet names that the socially sustained system created
While your points are true, I think they are more related to businesses growing to big and losing touch with it's customer base than being capitalism's failures. While they are linked, it's not the only result.
There are still many small businesses that maintain a "better community" agenda. I believe it is more the fault of the consumer that businesses get so large. We want the best price, and large companies can buy and produce cheaper therefore giving a better sell price, and their profits increase with sales and their size follows.. It's why so many shop at Wal Mart instead or Bob's Corner Store. If we didn't always buy from the big company, they wouldn't continue to grow.
Quote:
4. Of course, there are enough Military people who can't wait to get back...but I haven't met one who said because of living standard....family, love etc are much stronger after all. "most" poor people from even poorer countries who came here to work want to go back home even though they love it here and earn much more here. Socially and emotionally it's totally normal to get back "home" but I was amazed at the number of people I've met that wanted to stay here, I even remember one yet undecided saying that he'd love to get alll his loved ones over here.
It's easy to see the grass greener on one side when the government supplies everything you need.
3 of my neighbors are from Europe (1 from Switzerland, 1 couple live in France but spend half the year here, and the other from England). They all love their native countries, but they all say life in the US is great and has many advantages they don't have there.
I've been to Italy, Spain and France and they are all beautiful countries. I think they would be great places to own a vacation home or retire to, but I also noticed the people are always on the go, 100 KPH (metric reference  ), and it almost seems the day to day life is a bit frantic. And in the tourists areas, there was just as many sharks trying to get you to let go of your money as anywhere I've been.
Quote:
So, what about the homeless rate in the US?
Homelessness is not reserved to the US.
Here is a 2003 review on homeless numbers in Europe. The numbers don't look all bad, but it's country by country, much like if we divided our numbers up by state. They also break it up from those living on the street(rough sleepers), those in improvised housing(ie: tent cities, cardboard condos), those in shelters, etc.
http://www.feantsa.org/files/transnational_reports/EN_StatisticsReview_2003.pdf
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
NRTU.
So, a college student who is a flaming Socialist? There is no surprise there. Check back in 10-20 years. It is easy for someone with little or no property to deny property rights, which is, BTW, the fundamental concept which seperates Feudalism from Capitalism.
There is an old expression which goes "Don't try to teach your Grandma how to suck eggs." It basically means "You have no clue."
Now, when this Socialist Workers Utopia is finally established, I have a very important question - What EXACTLY do you do with the lazy dumbasses? A Socialist economy does not produce the surplusses necessary to maintan the non-productive at even a subsistence level. In Russia, they shoot them or just allow them to freeze to death in Siberia.
Have you ever actually taken a close look at a Yugo? Or a Moskva? These represent the pinnacle of achievement of the two most successful Socialist governments in modern times, and they are absolute crap that no one with a choice would choose to exchange their goods, services, or accumulated captial to purchase.
Now, if someone is going to tell me what to do, I would rather it is a person who has actually been succesful at doing these things, rather than a comittee of academics who have sat around a table and decided how they think it should be done.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
most conservatives were liberals until they grew up and had to face cold hard reality.
Homeless? IIRC studies show that many actually choose that lifestyle.
there will always be poor people. Many just do not have the ability to acquire a decent income.why?
1. lack of ambition
2. lack of intelligence
3. poor choices
4. plain old bad luck
Am i supposed to put them up in my basement?
Wasn't it Churchill that said:
Show me a person that is under 30 and is not a liberal and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me someone over 30 and not a conservative and I'll show you someone with no brains.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 |
Quote:
Quote:
That's part of the beauty of this country, you and I could not disagree more in our views of the world, but we can still root for the Browns....although, I'm surprised you support such a capitalistic sport!
As capitalist as it is (and it very much is), I might have to cite an earlier poster in the sentiment that the NFL is possibly the most successful socialist venture in the United States (outside, of course, police, fire, etc.)
I'm sure you and most people knew what I was referring to, but you choose to ignore it and inject unrelated material, that is your debate style. I'll make it clear, though. I was referring to the million dollar players making huge amounts of cash at the expense of the poor middle class slobs who pay their salaries and all of this happening while homeless people are starving in the streets. 
Now, this would sicken any true socialist or person leaning in that direction, or those who have a hatred for capitalism. Unless you are just talking out your ass, or regurgitating some philosophy out of a text book you are being taught by some smooth talking professor....it just doesn't really make sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Homeless? IIRC studies show that many actually choose that lifestyle.
What studies are you reading? 
The vast majority of the homeless suffer from mental illness, mainly schizophrenia; the most conservative estimates claim that schizophrenia is present in 1/3 of all cases.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
1. I have no idea what the socialist/capitalist nature of sports has to do with the argument. I have no problem with an individual sport adopting things like a salary cap, revenue sharing, and a draft. Because the overall goal is to grow THE LEAGUE, not just grow a few teams. My company has 8 offices, each has its own financial goals, if one office is really busy and gets a big job, they send it to another office for help, we share in an effort to grow the whole company, not just each office.... I still don't get what that has to do with anything. 2. Let me ask you a question, what percentage of a population SHOULD have a college degree? or a post college degree? or a high school diploma? You act as if the higher the percentage of college educated folks the better off a country will be.. so what if a country achieves 90% college graduates..... who will drive the backhoes, swing the hammers, cook the meals, herd the cattle, grow the corn, do the administrative work, raise the children, do the welding, work the retail stores, work the assembly line, work the mines, repair the cars..... or do any of the other millions and millions of jobs for which higher education is completely worthless? You know, who will do all of those jobs that Europeans are too good to do? Yes I think it is a great country, if you think Europe is great, then good for you. You do know that in studies the average level of education of a Fox News viewer is higher than that of any of its liberal propoganda network competitors right? I fully understand that the concept of Fox News would never work in Europe.. it's pro-America, it's pro conservative values, it's pro national pride.. so that makes us like North Korea..  3. Yes it is easier to hate when you can identify the bad guys.. I'm glad you have identified the bad guys as American conservatives. 4. Great. I refuse to get into a game of "I know a guy... " because it serves no purpose and you seem to want to play that game. What about the homeless rate? I looked briefly and had trouble finding any reliable data. The one thing I did notice is that a lot countries seem to consider it differently and collect data on it differently making apples to apples comparison difficult. I did read in my search a European guy before the UN stating how providing housing to all citizens should be one of the governments primary jobs.. should have saved that link. So in which western European country do you live?
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955 |
Quote:
I said: "Wow! This is the first time I've ever met a masseuse..." to which she said:
"And you still haven't met one. I'm a deep-tissue massage therapist. A masseuse wears a bikini..."
I usually correct people because masseuse is a complete put down to a Massage Therapist, as you discovered. Sometimes, though, I let it slide.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
I agree with almost aynthing you wrote. I'm not saying everyone should have a college degree...just that as many as possible should have ACCESS to it...and overall my point on education is/was in this thread that the more critical a society is the less it falls for propaganda (of course it implies the hope that: more education = more critical, smarter...not every individual with a degree falls into this equation of course but the overall tendency seems to be that it's harder to fool smarter people)
I agree 100% on your economy crisis response....actually it backs up my argument that all of us sustain this sytem. Wal-Mart consumers are part of the exploitation....it's tough to blame them because many of them ARE poor but it's a vicious cycle: they get low income (get exploited) and then have to support exploitation when consuming, it's a capitalists dream: workers fighting workers....while it IS part of the problem I really think it is designedly so. That's the sado-masochistic nature of capitalism or Reagan's "trickle-down"....give em barely enough to not revolt and let them "mob" at each other (it's no coincidence that "mobbing" developed in modern capitalism, same with depression...imho all systemic malfunctions/symptoms), so they never take their fight to the real suppressors
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
No offense intended. I thought that was the right terminology. Maybe it's because I've been to several professionals ...... but never one who wore a bikini.  However .... I did go to one many year ago that I wouldn't have minded seeing in a bikini. Ironically enough, she got married and moved ...... to Miami. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955 |
No offense taken. I'm just sayin' that we really cringe when we hear that term used to describe our profession. If someone holds a state license, or national certification, we have training and are Massage Therapists. OTOH, If a couple of untrained women open a massage "parlor", they can be called anything you would like to call them. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
A masseuse supplies a happy ending.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,955 |
Yes, there's that. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
1. I have no idea what the socialist/capitalist nature of sports has to do with the argument. I have no problem with an individual sport adopting things like a salary cap, revenue sharing, and a draft. Because the overall goal is to grow THE LEAGUE, not just grow a few teams. My company has 8 offices, each has its own financial goals, if one office is really busy and gets a big job, they send it to another office for help, we share in an effort to grow the whole company, not just each office.... I still don't get what that has to do with anything.
Now use "THE WORLD" instead of "THE LEAGUE" and "a few countries" instead of " afew teams"...get it now? You just conceeded an example where a capitalist group (read: any) can GROW implementing socialist structures/ideas, it's not contradictory as many on here claim....and my further point was that I think that's what made the NFL more fun than MLB (read: better system)....your company example is further proof: it's like in a family right? So imagine a country as a family and further all countries as family....all your doing is citing socialist examples on smaller scales working just fine....it's when we start family feuds so to say where the problems start....oh, I guess that's the capitalist vesion of "freedom" or "market"....you're free to fight and claw each other...yay!
Same with politics: are the dems and conservatives working together like a family for the bigger family USA? They don't (and never did: Im not blaming any side alone here)...so NO, american conservatives are not my bad guys by default, dems aren't much better and I agree with Charlie that they aren't anywhere near left politically, that's why it's so hilarious for me that anyone can label Obama a commie or socialist, it's just such an incredibly dumb statement. Best way to describe what I think about US politics is a little joke in Futurama where in the future the candidates names were John Jackson and Jack Johnson respectively
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
Quote:
Quote:
Homeless? IIRC studies show that many actually choose that lifestyle.
What studies are you reading?
The vast majority of the homeless suffer from mental illness, mainly schizophrenia; the most conservative estimates claim that schizophrenia is present in 1/3 of all cases.
did I say all or MANY ?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
"All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth." -Friedrich Nietzsche
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
The responsibility of the US is not to grow the world though. If you look at the US itself, there are tremendous "revenue sharing" programs at work.
Look at WV for example. They get back something like 30-40 times what they pay in income taxes back in one form or another of federal funding and projects. The only difference between the US and NFL in that regard is that the Congress makes deal and negotiates budgets that include favors to get things passed rather than looking out for the well being of the country as a whole first.
Besides .... the US already does a tremendous amount of "revenue sharing" with the rest of the world as it is ...... yet the rest of the world never shares back. Look at what the US spends in UN funding ...... military bases around the world ...... and financial support for allies. There is also help for developing countries .......
And then there is the incredible amount of money that ordinary US citizens donate each year to help those less fortunate.
People talk about how the UN spends to help people while the US doesn't .... but the UN itself does nothing that generates income.
In the end, the NFL is a negotiated contractual arrangement. It takes its team owners (countries) and players (citizens) inot the process, and they agree on what the final shape of revenue sharing will be, as well as how much of the total income generated will be split between the ownership group and the players group.
Back to the worldwide revenue sharing ........ Last time I checked, China wasn't preparing a revenue sharing check for the US.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
your company example is further proof: it's like in a family right? So imagine a country as a family and further all countries as family....all your doing is citing socialist examples on smaller scales working just fine....it's when we start family feuds so to say where the problems start....oh, I guess that's the capitalist vesion of "freedom" or "market"....you're free to fight and claw each other...yay!
We don't fight and claw, we compete. I see most of my comopetitors at bid openings, trade shows, industry seminars, etc.. we get along great. So I'm curious, given that I work in the engineering services industry, if we are not going to compete and we are going to hold hands, sing Kumbaya, and treat other companies who want the same jobs we want as "family", how then will business get done? Who will get the next big job? If I can't compete for it based on superior service or lower prices, then who will get it?
Quote:
Same with politics: are the dems and conservatives working together like a family for the bigger family USA?
No they are not. So just our of curiosity, is that happening in Parliament? Is it happening in Greece? Are politicians around the world playing nice and in total agreement?
Look if you are waiting for me to defend a lot of what our politicians do, you will be waiting a long time. Some of it is totally disgusting. Take the oil spill for instance, the dems are doing nothing to try to fix it, they are more intent on finding who to blame (BP and the oil companies) so they can score points with their tree hugger faction, the republicans aren't worried about finding who to blame (BP and the oil comopanies) because they need their support.. the local politicans in Alabama, Louisiana, Florida, etc are working like hell to keep the coastline of their states from being destroyed, everybody is lying about who is doing what, it's a big giant political football and the only thing nobody seems to care about is that lives are being ruined... Who was it that said "Politics would be a very noble profession if it wasn't for the politicians." ????
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
LOL Parliment. I love watching Parliment go at it. They get down and dirty ... and fight like hell. Partisan politics mixed with uncomfortable bedfellows in a power sharing arangement.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044 |
j/c
this thread has been very difficult to follow because it seems like there are a lot of branches so i hope my post is even remotely on the main subject. on the general idea of socialism and spreading the wealth, i can tell you that i would never ask for money from people who make a lot more than me, even if it's in a faceless manner such as government distribution, because i know i didn't earn it and i know they did. short of inheritance, where you can still argue someone in that family earned it, they did something that was significant enough, and contributed to society enough, to become very well off. those people should keep their money and serve as examples to strive for, not sources to leech from.
however, i won't go as far as to say humans are inherently evil (i know way too many good people to really believe that) but i will say that it is inherent for us to compare. we compare everything and by default, we'd compare anything that takes our attention and naturally, a lot of our attention goes towards things that cost money. the less you have, the more you think the rich should spare some because, heck, you have no money. the more you have, the more you get annoyed with the idea of having to share it with people who have less because they didn't earn it and you have your own obligations (and it is not up to people who make less to decide the validity of your obligations).
but it is on that note that we inherently compare that is the strongest evidence against socialism. it is the ability to differentiate yourself from others that drives us to work harder and succeed. take that away by giving healthcare, shelter, and more so, if the things provided all even remotely equal, and it will greatly stagnate the nation. i do not believe that shelter, healthcare, etc are rights. they are incentives. insurance was a benefit from better jobs. just because they are more prevalent now does not make it a right. we all get hungry. does that mean food is a right too? i don't think so. i can easily help someone i care about but i will not blindly give to people who do not work to get it. that's a bottomless hole.
jmho and i have no problem if others disagree. all i know is that it is this believe that has led me to where i am today and it is the same attitude i will try to instill in my children, down the road.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 72
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 72 |
Everything Nelson just said is gospel. Good read.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Yeah, great post: 0 arguments, 3+ wild preconceptions, 1 dumbass question I see where the level of discussion has plateaued on here...no problem at all, we are here because we all root for the Browns first and foremost after all
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,468
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,468 |
If you throw the "nitpick flag" on my response, I don't blame you. I just wanted to point out a little topic that irks me now and again.
You said that giving blindly to people is a bottomless hole (and you seemed to refer to it in a negative light). I disagree because I call that charitable donation. I donate plenty of my time and money, and I believe that giving is a necessary part of developing yourself as a person (wont' go off on that tangent, though).
What you're talking about ("i do not believe that shelter, healthcare, etc are rights. they are incentives. insurance was a benefit from better jobs.... does that mean food is a right too? i don't think so. i can easily help someone i care about but i will not blindly give to people who do not work to get it"), is not giving, it's taking.
The government is taking from me, and giving it away. I have a problem with that, because I want to decide the who and when and where I give away what I've earned myself.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Can't imagine where that "Europeans are elitest arrogant snobs" image comes from...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089 |
I've kinda lost track of this one....Was diggin it when Charlie was going super communist. It was fun to watch the sparks fly. However, it seems to have devolved into the normal protestations against the "nanny state" and "keeping the money I work for". What don't know if people here will ever believe is that having some socialist elements in your country's government, doesn't mean that you suddenly are a slave of the state. As my name subtly shows  , I'm Canadian. We have a greater number of "social safety nets" than the States. However, I still make alot of money, I still make my own decisions and I still have the freedom to live my life the way I choose. A degree of socialism does not equal a communist gulag in Siberia.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Can't imagine where that "Europeans are elitest arrogant snobs" image comes from...
From America's projection of the traits they possess? 
Let's face it -- America and Western Europe, despite how much venom they spit at each other , are very similar.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Phil having read many of your posts I'm starting to catch on.. some people see the world as black and white, some see it as shades of gray.. you see it as one shade of gray. Republicans and democrats are exactly alike.. Bush and Obama are exactly alike... Americans and Europeans are exactly alike... legal immigrants and illegal immigrants are exactly alike... men and women are exactly alike... yankees and confederates are exactly alike... south americans and asians are exactly alike... gay and straight people are exactly alike... It seems the basis of every post you make is that there is no need to debate because the two sides being debated are exactly alike...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Phil having read many of your posts I'm starting to catch on.. some people see the world as black and white, some see it as shades of gray.. you see it as one shade of gray. Republicans and democrats are exactly alike.. Bush and Obama are exactly alike... Americans and Europeans are exactly alike... legal immigrants and illegal immigrants are exactly alike... men and women are exactly alike... yankees and confederates are exactly alike... south americans and asians are exactly alike... gay and straight people are exactly alike... It seems the basis of every post you make is that there is no need to debate because the two sides being debated are exactly alike...
Not exactly alike ... more alike that either side would care to admit.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044 |
Quote:
If you throw the "nitpick flag" on my response, I don't blame you. I just wanted to point out a little topic that irks me now and again.
You said that giving blindly to people is a bottomless hole (and you seemed to refer to it in a negative light). I disagree because I call that charitable donation. I donate plenty of my time and money, and I believe that giving is a necessary part of developing yourself as a person (wont' go off on that tangent, though).
it would be unfair to generalize anyone who receives a donation as a bottomless hole but that is not what i did. i was simply saying it's easy to keep listing things as "rights" just because that's the humane thing to do. it's our right to have an even playing field with certain things protected. it's our right to eat but it is not our right to be given food. there's a difference. i was not calling the people bottomless holes, i was saying the argument for more and more rights is one. one day, it's a right to have a computer, a right to have a car, a right to ____, it would never end.
Quote:
What you're talking about ("i do not believe that shelter, healthcare, etc are rights. they are incentives. insurance was a benefit from better jobs.... does that mean food is a right too? i don't think so. i can easily help someone i care about but i will not blindly give to people who do not work to get it"), is not giving, it's taking.
no, it's not taking. it's earning. it's deserving. if you want shelter, if you want food, if you want healthcare, you will need to work. if you choose to detach yourself from society and not contribute, you're free to do so, but you are also choosing to give up those incentives. furthermore, i never said these thigns are "giving."
Quote:
The government is taking from me, and giving it away. I have a problem with that, because I want to decide the who and when and where I give away what I've earned myself.
that is my problem as well. i have no problem being charitable, but it is not up to the government to do it for me, nor is it for them to simply decide "if someone makes x, you need to pay for their ___"
<edit>
i think i get what you're saying in the 2nd paragraph combined with the third. if you're saying healthcare and those other examples are examples of the government taking from us to give to others, then we agree.
Last edited by dong; 07/15/10 04:05 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 |
I think I missed the answer to DC's question to you. What country do you live in?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
I think I missed the answer to DC's question to you. What country do you live in?
Germany, but I'm Italian
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,790
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,790 |
Quote:
Quote:
I think I missed the answer to DC's question to you. What country do you live in?
Germany, but I'm Italian
Now that Obama is our president, what are you willing to do for us? You guys over there despised Bush and you didn't want to work with him. We did what you asked and voted in Obama (over Bush's clone McCain). I think it's time for you all to pay up.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think I missed the answer to DC's question to you. What country do you live in?
Germany, but I'm Italian
Now that Obama is our president, what are you willing to do for us? You guys over there despised Bush and you didn't want to work with him. We did what you asked and voted in Obama (over Bush's clone McCain). I think it's time for you all to pay up.
They are no different than the free loaders here. Give me give me give me.
It's time this country gets some balls again. No more p.c. crap. No more aid. No more protecting.
You want the U.S. to bail your hurricane having ass out? Pay for it. You want the U.S. to cover your behind? Pay for it.
Bring out troops home. And if someone/some country crosses us? .............................
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
And if someone/some country crosses us? .............................
Attack an unrelated weak country that has resources we can exploit!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,447
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,447 |
Quote:
Quote:
And if someone/some country crosses us? .............................
Attack an unrelated weak country that has resources we can exploit!
What a funny but sad commentary ! I Em one of those Conservative/Libertarian type guy's who has made that comment about Iraq from time to time .. Wrong just dead Wrong ( Iraq invasion )
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,075
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,075 |
agreed.
And what bothered me even more was the attempt to wrap it in the stars & stripes while shouting "911 !!!" like it was the Alamo or something. It really frightened me to see so many otherwise temperate, mindful Americans with so much bloodlust in their eyes regarding Iraq.
I never felt one iota of sympathy for Saddam Hussein in all this. He was a despot who needed to be taken down, but it would have been much more palatable to me if the Iraqi people had ASKED us to do it... for their own reasons.
First it was Al Queda, then WMD, then it was Saddam's inhumanity to his own people... we were sold a bill of goods, that too many of us were all too willing to buy... hook line & sinker. I'll be glad to see us completely out of there, but it will never erase the history that was written there.
I've been proud of my country many many times in my life. This time was not one of them.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,275
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,275 |
Quote:
agreed.
And what bothered me even more was the attempt to wrap it in the stars & stripes while shouting "911 !!!" like it was the Alamo or something. It really frightened me to see so many otherwise temperate, mindful Americans with so much bloodlust in their eyes regarding Iraq.
Well...we could have chosen to do nothing...turn the other cheek...again. This time attacked on OUR soil. Something HAD to be done in response.
Quote:
I never felt one iota of sympathy for Saddam Hussein in all this. He was a despot who needed to be taken down, but it would have been much more palatable to me if the Iraqi people had ASKED us to do it... for their own reasons.
Maybe those people existed...HOWEVER...speaking out - or speaking at all -would surely have led to the death of them and/or their family.
My mother grew up in nazi Germany...her family and neighborhood HATED Hitler...everyone kept their mouths shut so as to live. No one could ask for the overthrow of that despot and remain living for very long.
Quote:
First it was Al Queda, then WMD, then it was Saddam's inhumanity to his own people... we were sold a bill of goods, that too many of us were all too willing to buy... hook line & sinker.
Well...Al Queda WAS there...everyone thought WMDs were there...Saddam WAS an inhumane POS. Where is the "bill of goods"?
Quote:
I'll be glad to see us completely out of there, but it will never erase the history that was written there.
Agreed.
Quote:
I've been proud of my country many many times in my life. This time was not one of them.
Well...I have ALWAYS been proud of my country. While many times not happy with decisions that were made in the name of my country...but ALWAYS proud of my country.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Right Wingers at it again
|
|
