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Well...we could have chosen to do nothing...turn the other cheek...again. This time attacked on OUR soil. Something HAD to be done in response.
To paint the situation as do nothing vs. invade a country that wasn't a threat and had nothing to do with 9/11 is nothing more than grasping at straws for a talking point.
Staggers the imagination that folks are still trying to defend this nightmare ... even odder is the fact that it often comes from folks who now think the country is coming to an end because of Obama... For all of Obama's ills -- and he will go down as one of the worst if not the worst -- he's yet to do something as disastrously stupid as invading Iraq (though the fact that we still remain there is on him).
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I think I missed the answer to DC's question to you. What country do you live in?
Germany, but I'm Italian
what other italian moved to Germany?
lemme think........
Oh, I got it......... Mussolini
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To paint the situation as do nothing vs. invade a country that wasn't a threat and had nothing to do with 9/11 is nothing more than grasping at straws for a talking point.
Staggers the imagination that folks are still trying to defend this nightmare ... even odder is the fact that it often comes from folks who now think the country is coming to an end because of Obama... For all of Obama's ills -- and he will go down as one of the worst if not the worst -- he's yet to do something as disastrously stupid as invading Iraq (though the fact that we still remain there is on him).
Sad to say , but I have to go with ya on this one Phil !
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I think I missed the answer to DC's question to you. What country do you live in?
Germany, but I'm Italian
what other italian moved to Germany?
lemme think........
Oh, I got it......... Mussolini
1st Hitler, now a Mussolini flout...seems to be ok with the refs as long as no US citizen is being insulted in such a low level, huh?
Btw, Musslini never moved to Germany 
#gmstrong
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Ohhhhhhhhh Come on Dawg, we are equal opportunity insulter s  ..
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I think I missed the answer to DC's question to you. What country do you live in?
Germany, but I'm Italian
what other italian moved to Germany?
lemme think........
Oh, I got it......... Mussolini
1st Hitler, now a Mussolini flout...seems to be ok with the refs as long as no US citizen is being insulted in such a low level, huh?
Btw, Musslini never moved to Germany
why so sensitive? jeez, it was just a joke
BTW, you are technically correct. Mussolini was liberated after his arrest after a commado raid ordered by Hitler
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Well...we could have chosen to do nothing...turn the other cheek...again. This time attacked on OUR soil. Something HAD to be done in response.
To paint the situation as do nothing vs. invade a country that wasn't a threat and had nothing to do with 9/11 is nothing more than grasping at straws for a talking point.
Staggers the imagination that folks are still trying to defend this nightmare ... even odder is the fact that it often comes from folks who now think the country is coming to an end because of Obama... For all of Obama's ills -- and he will go down as one of the worst if not the worst -- he's yet to do something as disastrously stupid as invading Iraq (though the fact that we still remain there is on him).
Talking point? 
Nothing to do with 9/11? You do not know that and neither do I.
Saddam was a nutjob. The world is better off with him gone. Dispute that.
I am not defending the war or the decision to go to war. I simply understand why it was done.
Doing nothing - while popular to people like you - was not an option.
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Well...we could have chosen to do nothing...turn the other cheek...again. This time attacked on OUR soil. Something HAD to be done in response.
To paint the situation as do nothing vs. invade a country that wasn't a threat and had nothing to do with 9/11 is nothing more than grasping at straws for a talking point.
Staggers the imagination that folks are still trying to defend this nightmare ... even odder is the fact that it often comes from folks who now think the country is coming to an end because of Obama... For all of Obama's ills -- and he will go down as one of the worst if not the worst -- he's yet to do something as disastrously stupid as invading Iraq (though the fact that we still remain there is on him).
Talking point?
Nothing to do with 9/11? You do not know that and neither do I.
Saddam was a nutjob. The world is better off with him gone. Dispute that.
I am not defending the war or the decision to go to war. I simply understand why it was done.
Doing nothing - while popular to people like you - was not an option.
Doing nothing wasn't an option.. It was odd,, after 9/11, I wanted to nuke the entire middle east.. just wipe them off the face of the planet.. I know that was wrong, I know it now and I knew it then.. But that was my first thought.
By the time we began the war, I was supportive of it. But I think in the end, I was wrong to support it. error in judgement on my part.. or so I feel today anyway.
Getting Hussain was fine. needed in fact. This is hindsight of course, but why not use covert actions rather than all out war. Seems to me, we'd have been way better off that way.. again, hindsight..... same with Bin Laden.
LIke I said, this is all hindsight so I blame nobody in particular. Just sayin.....
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Nothing to do with 9/11? You do not know that and neither do I.
Actually, yes, I do.
Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. The evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive.
You don't know that and neither do I? Do you read on the subject much?
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Saddam was a nutjob. The world is better off with him gone. Dispute that.
You want to go around the world and invade every country that's run by a nutjob?
Again, this 'do nothing' and 'Saddam was evil' is nothing more than hollow rhetoric used to defense the indefensible. The war was a mistake. A giant mistake.
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Doing nothing - while popular to people like you - was not an option.
Once again....
it is not a matter of do nothing vs. invade a country that was not a threat to us and had nothing to do with 9/11.
The alternative to invading Iraq was not to do nothing.
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If stabilizing Iraq stabilizes the Middle East, then it could be one of the most significant and important military actions taken in the past half century .... far more important than either Vietman or Korea ..... and with a far smaller loss of life.
Like all military actions, it remains to be seen what the long term results will be .... but the early returns show some promise.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If stabilizing Iraq stabilizes the Middle East, then it could be one of the most significant and important military actions taken in the past half century .... far more important than either Vietman or Korea ..... and with a far smaller loss of life.
Like all military actions, it remains to be seen what the long term results will be .... but the early returns show some promise.
so far, I question the promise.. But I could end up being wrong.
They have been fighting for a long time,, I have doubt that this will mean anything in the long run...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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They have been fighting for a long time,, I have doubt that this will mean anything in the long run...
IMO, Until the Sunni / Shiite schism and the Israeli / Palestinian disputes get settled this part of the world will remain at war.
The Sunni / Shiite crap has been going on since the 7th century. The sooner we can end our dependence on their oil the sooner we can leave and ignore those idiots. Until then we have to look out for our strategic interests in this part of the world.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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If stabilizing Iraq stabilizes the Middle East
And people say it's the doves who are wide-eyed and naive ...
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Iraq alone has little to do with stabilizing the Middle East.
The new Iraq plus converting Iran away from its religion directed government will go a long way to helping... but I don't see us getting involved - directly - in Iran.
Clearing the Taliban from Afghanistan helps, too.
Until Israel and Palestine realize that they are BOTH the freaking problem, however, little in the way of tensions in that region will diminish.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Actually, If Iran is marginalized by virtue of having peaceful neighbors on each side of it, this is a positive IMHO. It eliminate contiguous war allies, limiting greatly their ability to make war if they have no ability to fly over their neighbors.
The fact that the Palestinian Territories are not the country of Palestine has far more to do with the Arab neighbors of the Palestinian Territories than anyone else.
Much is made in the press of the "Israeli blockade" of the "aid" to the Palestinian Territories ..... but Egypt has been an active and full partner with Israel in this blockade. That's a story that is not often reported though.
You are correct that peace will not be acheived until the Israel/Palestine situation is resolved. However, it it my humble opinion that peace between Israel and Palestine be a result of peace elsewhere rather than a step that creates peace elsewhere.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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It pain's me to read how many of my fellow Countrymen rationalize the Iraq Invasion ..
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It pain's me to read how many of my fellow Countrymen rationalize the Iraq Invasion ..
I think it's hard to let go of an ardent opinion ... I don't know any other way to explain it.
To rationalize, endorse or defend what we have done is an argument against logic and reason, IMHO.
And I see no end in sight, really. In 10-20 years (assuming we've left by then), you will have the same folks saying things like 'If we hadn't tip-toed around and fought the war with full force, we would've won.'
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Smears and slanders from the Left Jeff Jacoby http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com -- "IT'S hard not to notice that political discussion over the last decade has increasingly degenerated into name-calling," Brian Anderson wrote in the Manhattan Institute's City Journal earlier this year. "The insults most often come from the left: 'racist,' 'homophobe,' 'sexist.'. . . It has become a habit of left-liberal political argument to . . . redefine mainstream conservative arguments as extremism and bigotry. Close-minded and uncivil, this tendency betrays what's liberal in liberalism." For each of the past eight years, I have been rounding up examples of liberal hate speech -- the gross and vicious slanders of conservatives that are uttered all too often by liberal politicians, activists, and journalists. And I have reached the conclusion that as bad as these vitriolic slurs are, even worse is the failure of responsible voices on the left to condemn them. Where were the responsible liberals in 2001, for example, when Democratic partisans were comparing John Ashcroft to the KKK and his nomination to a lynching party? Representative William Clay of Missouri, recalling George W. Bush's talk of outreach to black Americans, said that picking Ashcroft resembled "the way that Ku Klux Klan members worked to improve race relations: They, too, reached out to blacks with nooses and burning crosses." Steve Benson, a syndicated editorial cartoonist, depicted Ashcroft wearing white robes and enthusiastically brandishing a noose as Bush restrains him: "Easy, John -- I said your confirmation should be a cinch -- a cinch." The chairman of the NAACP reached for a more contemporary smear. Twice Julian Bond declared that Bush had dredged Ashcroft "from the Taliban wing of American politics." That was ugly enough in July, when the Taliban were merely the fanatics who tortured dissidents, crushed human rights, and repressed women so savagely that thousands died from lack of medical care. By December, when Bond repeated his libel, the Taliban were at war with the United States, actively trying to kill Americans. Yet Bond still saw nothing wrong with his revolting comparison. And neither did America's liberal elite. Actually, one liberal -- USA Today columnist DeWayne Wickham -- did call Bond's words "overblown." I would have taken that as faintly critical, except that he began by chortling over Bond's ability "to jerk the GOP's chain" and went on to defend his Republican-bashing. Far from condemning liberal hate speech, Wickham himself traffics in it. In August, he wrote about the campus uproar over conservative activist David Horowitz's ad opposing reparations for slavery. The column opened with a grotesque calumny, calling Horowitz "a man whose views on race relations track closer to those of David Duke than Martin Luther King." To falsely accuse someone of being akin to a Nazi racist is worse than contemptible. Yet liberals say such things almost routinely -- and other liberals don't object. By contrast, when Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson ascribed the Sept. 11 attacks to God's wrath over abortion, gay rights, feminism, and the ACLU, fellow conservatives slammed them. Rush Limbaugh blasted them as "indefensible" and said as a conservative, he was "profoundly embarrassed and disappointed by their comments." William F. Buckley disdained their "ignorant misapplication of Christian thought." In the New York Post, John Podhoretz wrote of his "revulsion," labeling the remarks "shameful . . . ignorant." Rod Dreher, in a powerful column for NationalReview.com, called Falwell and Robertson "heartless bastards" whose words had been "unspeakably profane." That was par for the course. When a conservative oversteps the bounds of decency in demonizing a liberal, he typically gets scorched by criticism, much of it from the right. But there was no scorching of: Chris Matthews, when he likened Republicans quoting John F. Kennedy on tax cuts to "the Nazi Party quoting Kennedy saying, 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?" Al Sharpton, who said during the post-election ballot fight in Florida that conservatives wanted to "do the same thing to us" that "Hitler in his wickedness and evil" did to the Jews. Michelangelo Signorile, the well-known gay writer, who wrote that while Afghanistan "has been protecting Osama bin Laden, Italy has been harboring another omnipotent religious zealot, one who equally condemns us Western sinners and incites violence. . . . Meet John Paul II, Christian fundamentalist extraordinaire and a man who inspires thugs across the globe . . . ." Paul Conrad, the syndicated Los Angeles Times cartoonist, who depicted the Republicans' tax-cut bill as a GOP elephant, wearing an Al Qaeda headdress and holding a smoking AK-47. 20 The several members of the Hawaii ACLU board of directors who publicly objected to inviting Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas to take part in a debate on the grounds that he is "an Antichrist," "a Hitler" -- or "if not Hitler, he is a Goebbels" -- and an "a--hole," and that allowing him to speak would be "like having a serial murderer debate the value of life." And then there was California Attorney General Bill Lockyer, who said last summer, in reference to the chairman of Enron Corp., "I would love to personally escort [Kenneth] Lay to an 8-by-10 cell that he could share with a tattooed dude who says, 'Hi, my name is Spike, honey.' " http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/smears.htm
#gmstrong
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#gmstrong
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And then there was California Attorney General Bill Lockyer, who said last summer, in reference to the chairman of Enron Corp., "I would love to personally escort [Kenneth] Lay to an 8-by-10 cell that he could share with a tattooed dude who says, 'Hi, my name is Spike, honey.' "
What's wrong with this one............ I felt the same way. Nor do I feel any sympathy toward him after he died. In fact, I would have liked many of those Enron executives to have been lined up and shot in the back of the head. Same goes for Madoff
Ripping off people's grandmas and stuff. I hope there's a hell for people like them
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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And then there was California Attorney General Bill Lockyer, who said last summer, in reference to the chairman of Enron Corp., "I would love to personally escort [Kenneth] Lay to an 8-by-10 cell that he could share with a tattooed dude who says, 'Hi, my name is Spike, honey.' "
What's wrong with this one............ I felt the same way. Nor do I feel any sympathy toward him after he died. In fact, I would have liked many of those Enron executives to have been lined up and shot in the back of the head. Same goes for Madoff
Ripping off people's grandmas and stuff. I hope there's a hell for people like them
I'm guessing that folks who have been raped or know folks who have been raped may find it a little offensive.
I don't like the guy, I think he's a dirt bag. However, I'd never wish that experience on anybody.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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My oh my aren't we sensitive? 
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My oh my aren't we sensitive?
Well, you gotta admit, there is enough ammunition on both sides of this argument..
Pretty typical if you ask me. They get us to fight among ourselves and while our attentions are on the petty, name calling stuff, they rob us blind..
it's a great system if you are a politician or media type..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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It pain's me to read how many of my fellow Countrymen rationalize the Iraq Invasion ..
I think it's hard to let go of an ardent opinion ... I don't know any other way to explain it.
To rationalize, endorse or defend what we have done is an argument against logic and reason, IMHO.
And I see no end in sight, really. In 10-20 years (assuming we've left by then), you will have the same folks saying things like 'If we hadn't tip-toed around and fought the war with full force, we would've won.'
Oh...if only the rest of us could be as enlightened as you.
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It pain's me to read how many of my fellow Countrymen rationalize the Iraq Invasion ..
I think it's hard to let go of an ardent opinion ... I don't know any other way to explain it.
To rationalize, endorse or defend what we have done is an argument against logic and reason, IMHO.
And I see no end in sight, really. In 10-20 years (assuming we've left by then), you will have the same folks saying things like 'If we hadn't tip-toed around and fought the war with full force, we would've won.'
Oh...if only the rest of us could be as enlightened as you.
It's not some higher truth or anything. The Iraq War was a mistake, and should've never happened.
I would like to think that most folks understand that now ... obviously some don't, despite the facts of the matter. I was merely stating my opinion that those who still defend it are most likely clinging to an ardent opinion, which is a hard thing to let go for all of us.
For example, earlier in the thread you argued whether or not Hussein had involvement in 9/11 ... which is an opinion that simply has no basis in reality. I don't know why you feel that way ... the only conclusions I can come to is that you're misinformed, or you're simply clinging to a belief you felt strongly about. And you seem to have a finger on the pulse of what's going in terms of news and current events, so I would guess it's the latter.
I don't say that to come off as high and mighty -- it's not some profound intellectual truth that Hussein wasn't involved ... just common knowledge to anyone who chooses to research the matter.
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IMO and I believe, the war in Iraq was nothing but a decoy. It's intent was to take the media and the American public's attention off the Afghanistan war that was not completing it's objective.
It was billed as going after WMDs, and never about retribution for 9/11.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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There could never be a completely military solution for Afghanistan.
Afghanistan is not like most countries. There are a couple of cities ..... and a whole bunch of tribal villages. Most of the country is ethnic tribal villages. Victory in Afghanistan requires teaching an entirely different way of life in addition to military objectives.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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IMO this is a major reason we invaded Afghanistan...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline
God I hope that's not true.. we've wasted tons of money and countless lives on this war.. I'd hope it's for some higher/loftier goal that Natural Gas........ 
You know what I'll never understand? I'll never understand how we could actually be so stupid as to get into a war in Afganistan in the first place.. you'd think we'd already have learned that it's unwinnable..
We helped them defeat the Soviets... gave them weapons that they didn't have and with the terrain being what it is, they were able to beat back the Russians and almost cause a complete collapse of the Russian economy...
Yet, we were apparently arrogant enough to think it wouldn't happen to us the same way..
Look at our economy... Tell me this mess has NOTHING to do with war!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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...just common knowledge to anyone who chooses to research the matter.
So there is a resource that will tell us what REALLY was/is going on in Iraq?
Is there also a source for the Afghan war?
How about this week's mega-lottery?
C'mon Phil...none if us are privy to the full account of what is going on over there...THAT is all I am trying to say when I said:
"You have no idea and neither do I."
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...just common knowledge to anyone who chooses to research the matter.
So there is a resource that will tell us what REALLY was/is going on in Iraq?
Is there also a source for the Afghan war?
How about this week's mega-lottery?
C'mon Phil...none if us are privy to the full account of what is going on over there...THAT is all I am trying to say when I said:
"You have no idea and neither do I."
Well, you see, we overthrew the Hussein regime. From there, we were privy to every single document, contract, and meeting note that ever passed through their administration. Official documents, unofficial documents, documents that they didn't want the U.S. to see.
And the evidence conclusively shows the relationship between Hussein and bin Laden, as well as al-Qaeda. And the relationship was frosty at best. Hussein wasn't very fond of them; he was a fairly secular leader. bin Laden had reached out Hussein on several occasions, only to be ignored.
He had nothing to do with September 11th.
So once again, yes, I do know. And so can you and anyone else. All you have to do is read through CIA documents, Hussein documents, testimonies from employees and leaders, etc.
I have to say ... you are actually arguing that no one *truly* knows if Hussein was involved with 9/11? You're making Dick Cheney blush.
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IMO this is a major reason we invaded Afghanistan...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline
a drop in the coffers if the lithium and other natural resources from their mountain ranges are tapped.
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it's not some profound intellectual truth that Hussein wasn't involved ... just common knowledge to anyone who chooses to research the matter.
...or doesn't watch Fox News as only source of information. If we had a channel like Fox over here (would not have worked anyway) they would have more work to do in court because of numerous lawsuits for obvious mis-information, slander and malicious gossip etc...I still cant believe that anybody actually watches AND believes the crap that gets spewed on there (watching their news as comedy can be fun though)
Anyway, again...here's a funny take on the history of US foreign politics...laugh and cry
http://www.youtube.com/v/n4H_E8b-qmo
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Whoa, more insults from Europe..
yebat' Putin
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Whoa, more insults from Europe..
Imagine that ..... 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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IMO and I believe, the war in Iraq was nothing but a decoy. It's intent was to take the media and the American public's attention off the Afghanistan war that was not completing it's objective.
It was billed as going after WMDs, and never about retribution for 9/11.
NOPE...it was not a decoy...
Why take needed military assets to Iraq and use them as a decoy, when you could use the same assets to win the Afghan War?
Sorry, that makes no military sense.
Iraq was always the war of choice for the Bush administration...9/11 and Afghanistan just got in the way for a while.
Once Bin Laden was lost at Tora Bora, the Afghan War was put on the back burner by the Bush administration, for the rest of his presidency.
Last edited by mac; 07/19/10 01:54 PM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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speaking of Bin Laden,,, where the hell is he anyway...
We are NO closer to nailing him now than we were in 2003?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Once Bin Laden was lost at Tora Bora, the Afghan War was put on the back burner by the Bush administration, for the rest of his presidency.
Actually, this is an interesting statement to me... and I ask the following not to instigate, but to provoke thought and get insight from everyone:
Did it *REALLY* get back-burnered by the Administration, or did reporting on it just get backburnered by the media after Tora Bora?
It seems to me that after Tora Bora, there simply wasn't a lot of reporting on Afghanistan... the reporting around that time then seemed to shift focus to the daily body count in Iraq and IED's. Did a decrease in reporting give the impression that less was happening? I don't recall any actual reports of any sort of step-down in operations, though after Tora Bora, the size and frequency of engagements seemed to drastically fall off as it was at that point that the Taliban had been pushed out and was on its heels.
The point is this: How much of our perceptions is framed by the reporting, or lack of reporting, on things? We all know how the average newspaper writer tends to write their articles to lead the reader to certain conclusions... so we know we can all be led along. We see it here daily by our own reactionary posting.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Mac .... what do you define as winning in Afghanistan?
Serious question.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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