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You mean like the amount of reporting on that little oil leak incident down in the Gulf of Mexico?
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Pretty much, yes....
The American public is an exercise in Short Attention Span Theater. If it isn't in the news constantly, it is old news.... our brains move on to the next "story". Whether that is how we are, or how they've conditioned us, I don't know.. but this "back burnering" seems to fit that bill.
Once the Taliban was booted, stories on Afghanistan moved to being Page 2 material, at best.
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speaking of Bin Laden,,, where the hell is he anyway...
We are NO closer to nailing him now than we were in 2003?
daman...we don't know that, do we?
Just today, Sec of State, Hillary Clinton announced a $7.5 billion aid package to Pakistan...keep in mind, Bin Laden has had help to remain free...perhaps help from Pakistan.
I'm sure our Gov is concerned about keeping Pakistan's nukes secure due to their location being close to safe havens for terrorists. I'm also sure that catching Bin Laden remains a priority and we will likely need help finding him..maybe Pakistan's help.
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$7.5 billion aid package to Pakistan
I wonder how much of that aid package is the weapons that Pakistan wanted?
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Just today, Sec of State, Hillary Clinton announced a $7.5 billion aid package to Pakistan...keep in mind, Bin Laden has had help to remain free...perhaps help from Pakistan.
$7.5 Billion? Hell Obama could create like 40 jobs with that.. or he could keep a couple dozen people on unemployment for another 6 months.. this is money that could be going toward helping the poor downtrodden in this country with the oppressive boot of big business and George Bush on their throats and he's giving it to Pakistan and you think this is a good idea... you really are a piece of work mac.. Obama could crap on your livingroom floor and you'd build a frame around it.
yebat' Putin
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Come on DC .... you know better than that. He'd build a shrine. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Once Bin Laden was lost at Tora Bora, the Afghan War was put on the back burner by the Bush administration, for the rest of his presidency.
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Actually, this is an interesting statement to me... and I ask the following not to instigate, but to provoke thought and get insight from everyone:
Did it *REALLY* get back-burnered by the Administration, or did reporting on it just get backburnered by the media after Tora Bora?
prp...NOPE...it was not the media that backburnered the Afghan War...they simply reported. Once Bin Laden was lost at Tora Bora, the administration's military objective in Afghanistan changed completely.
The media reports simply reflect the US military activity at the time..which was very little in Afghanistan.
The Afghan War was put on the backburner due to administration priorities and the availability of military assets. We did not have enough troops and military assets to fight two wars at the same time.
Iraq became Bush's priority...
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It seems to me that after Tora Bora, there simply wasn't a lot of reporting on Afghanistan... the reporting around that time then seemed to shift focus to the daily body count in Iraq and IED's. Did a decrease in reporting give the impression that less was happening?
prp...the problem with your comment above...the timeline.
Bin Laden was lost at Tora Bora in Dec. 2001...the Iraq War did not start until March of 2003...the daily body count and IEDs did not start until after the Iraq War started in March 2003.
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Mac .... what do you define as winning in Afghanistan?
Serious question.
I'll ask again ......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Really? Tora Bora was that long ago? Man, time flies. I didn't think it happened that quickly after our arrival.
Still, I think the point that the Taliban was no longer a credible threat went a LONG way toward the perception that there was a shift in focus because after Tora Bora, there was no need for it to be a primary focus of anything.
However, if Tora Bora was indeed in Dec. '01 as you state, then the time frame doesn't fit anything with Iraq at all as we didn't go there until '03. So, it certainly was NOT back burnered after "Tora Bora and the escape of BinLaden" in favor of Iraq.. that's just made up on your part.
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Mac .... what do you define as winning in Afghanistan?
Serious question.
I'll ask again ......
YT...what General Petraeus outlined during his recent confirmation hearings...did you watch them?
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However, if Tora Bora was indeed in Dec. '01 as you state,
prp...look it up...
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then the time frame doesn't fit anything with Iraq at all as we didn't go there until '03.
prp...exactly..
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So, it certainly was NOT back burnered after "Tora Bora and the escape of BinLaden" in favor of Iraq.. that's just made up on your part.
prp...I think your wrong again and here is why...
Though our military did kill many of the Taliban, a good number of them escaped into Pakistan.
DID BUSH FOLLOW HIS OWN "BUSH DOCTRINE"?
Also, THE PRIZE escaped Tora Bora and Bush again violated his own "Bush Doctrine". There was plenty of unfinished business that should have been taken care of after Tora Bora...but Bush had other priorities.
Militarily, Bush needed at least a year to ramp up for his Iraq War and he knew we did not have the military assets to enforce the Bush Doctrine and fight another war in Iraq.
Last edited by mac; 07/19/10 02:54 PM.
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However, if Tora Bora was indeed in Dec. '01 as you state,
prp...look it up...
No need. I'm fine with that.
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then the time frame doesn't fit anything with Iraq at all as we didn't go there until '03.
prp...exactly..
Then tell me how you can justify your claim that we back burnered Afghanistan in favor of the Iraq war after Tora Bora because it was Iraq that Bush wanted all along?
Afghanistan was back burnered, under control and focus shifted from there long before Iraq.
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prp...I edited above...your answer is in that post.
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No, I don't think you answered it at all. You make some assumptions, and you toss about some buzzwords, but I don't think it is a viable answer at all.
Yes, bin Laden escaped.... and I don't think that matters at all in the scheme of things. As a P.R. item, sure.. .as a reality, not a bit.
I have no idea what the hell you are referring to with "Bush Doctrine".
The build up did take a while, and it did take some units from Afghanistan, but militarily, they were no longer needed there. In fact, it wasn't until several years later that the Taliban recovered significantly to require a renewed commitment from us. Taliban escaped, sure... but they were BADLY smacked down up to that point.
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As I recall it we did not have a way to bring in a massive amount of troops into Afganistan quickly so we sent in a smaller force of special ops and cia. We used the existing anti-Taliban forces to help us as we brought in troops. When it came to Tora Bora we were not in charge. We simply did not have enough forces so we were still counting on rebels. I believe a temporary ceasefire was put into place by the Rebel forces which is when Bin Laden supposedly got away.
We continued our build up even after Tora Bora. The fact is nobody has ever conquered Afganistan. Our goal is not to conqure but to throw out the Taliban(who ruled by force) and let the Afgani people have self rule with a democratic government. The problem is that Afganistan is a mostly tribal country and they don't really care to come together.
in my opinion. we should get the hell out of there and bomb the crap out of any terrorist camps that pop up. Screw nation building.
#gmstrong
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IMO and I believe, the war in Iraq was nothing but a decoy. It's intent was to take the media and the American public's attention off the Afghanistan war that was not completing it's objective.
It was billed as going after WMDs, and never about retribution for 9/11.
NOPE...it was not a decoy...
Why take needed military assets to Iraq and use them as a decoy, when you could use the same assets to win the Afghan War?
Sorry, that makes no military sense.
Iraq was always the war of choice for the Bush administration...9/11 and Afghanistan just got in the way for a while.
Once Bin Laden was lost at Tora Bora, the Afghan War was put on the back burner by the Bush administration, for the rest of his presidency.
And what was the best way to put something on the back burner? Hmm, divert attention elsewhere maybe?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I don't think it was a diversion. Bush felt we had unfinished business there and he also thought Clinton dropped the ball by letting Iraq off the hook when it came to inspections. I want to believe that he was sure Iraq still had WMD which made getting rid of Saddam a priority.
#gmstrong
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Mac .... what do you define as winning in Afghanistan?
Serious question.
I'll ask again ......
YT...what General Petraeus outlined during his recent confirmation hearings...did you watch them?
I didn't ask about General Petraeus though. I asked how you, mac, poster on the Dawg Talkers Message Board, would define winning. In your own words, with your own voice. (or keyboard, in this case)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The question to you was did you watch the hearings. Did you set aside hours and hours to watch cspan instead of doing something productive with your time? Why can't you answer a question that was posed instead of an after you asked a question?
#gmstrong
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Fair enough.
I did not watch the hearings. I think that I was at the Surgery Center having stuff stuck in my back during one day of the hearings.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Then you should go through and read a couple hours of boring transcripts and figure it out.. that is so much easier than having mac write 4 or 5 sentences and tell you what his opinion is..
yebat' Putin
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#gmstrong
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Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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My oh my aren't we sensitive? 
Well, you gotta admit, there is enough ammunition on both sides of this argument..
Pretty typical if you ask me. They get us to fight among ourselves and while our attentions are on the petty, name calling stuff, they rob us blind..
it's a great system if you are a politician or media type..
Steve Forbes is on MSNBC in a few moments,, I think he's going to agree with me on this...LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Okay. I was thinking of the place on Southern just south of Forum health. Prizant owns the anthesia business
#gmstrong
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My oh my aren't we sensitive?
Well, you gotta admit, there is enough ammunition on both sides of this argument..
Pretty typical if you ask me. They get us to fight among ourselves and while our attentions are on the petty, name calling stuff, they rob us blind..
it's a great system if you are a politician or media type..
Steve Forbes is on MSNBC in a few moments,, I think he's going to agree with me on this...LOL
Nope,, he didn't..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Yes, bin Laden escaped.... and I don't think that matters at all in the scheme of things. As a P.R. item, sure.. .as a reality, not a bit.
prp...IT DOES NOT MATTER that Bin Laden escaped and is still alive, leading Al Qaeda?...
The man who planned, financed and took credit for the worst attack on the United States, IN HISTORY and continues to lead his terrorist organization, and you believe it does not matter?
Thankfully, in reality, most Americans believe capturing or killing Bin Laden is something America needs to follow through on...it is "unfinished" business, not P.R.
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I have no idea what the hell you are referring to with "Bush Doctrine".
prp...If you do not know what the Bush Doctrine is, then you are not going to understand my answer.
I strongly suggest you educate yourself on the subject.
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I have no idea what the hell you are referring to with "Bush Doctrine".
The Bush Doctrine is one of those things that mac absolutely loves because it means nothing.. or it means everything, however you choose to use it at the time..
It can refer to not signing a treaty or it can mean pre-emptively attacking somebody if we feel the threat is great enough.. and it can talk about regime change.. there is no "Bush Doctrine" other than a collection of things people have pieced together to try to come up with a name for his various foreign policy decisions...
yebat' Putin
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The "Bush Doctrine" is a name made up for Bush's policies. You are right about it DC.
#gmstrong
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Ahh, one of "those" things. I'll pass on the "educate yourself on the topic" suggestion, mac... I try not to deal in wacko-ology. Quote:
Thankfully, in reality, most Americans believe capturing or killing Bin Laden is something America needs to follow through on...it is "unfinished" business, not P.R.
I'd say most Americans that believe like you don't have a freaking clue.
Please, oh .....PLEASE tell me what significance, beyond that of a "feel good" P.R. story, capturing/killing bin Laden will have (assuming that his completely irrelevant ass isn't rotting in some northern Pakistan cave right now)?
I'll tell you its SOLE significance: It'll be a singular, fleeting moment where people will go "Ah Ha! We got ya!"... and the next day a bomb will blow some kid to pieces; and then some other hummus bag will record a video laughing at us, showing how we can cut the head off but they continue on without missing a beat.
It means NOTHING. He is simply a Trophy.
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mac .... why won't you answer the questions posed to you? A real answer, in your own words, that actual .... oh I don't know .... ANSWERS the damn question ...... I mean .. you have moved beyond joke. I would love to see you as the spokeperson for the DNC because they would never win another election. They would lose the dogcatcher election in San Fransisco if you were answering questions for them. I understand that you don't know what the hell you're talking about ..... and I understand that you're trying to hide it .... but you're failing miserably. The biggest joke on this board is that you can act like such a condescending ass when it is blatantly obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I would dearly love to capture or kill Bin Laden as a means of making him pay for his crimes... I don't think it would have any great impact on the future of al Qaeda since I think that has been running pretty much without him since 9/11.
I have said this for years but I think killing him now might only serve to give him martyr status among his followers (as if he needs it).... Strategically I think the best thing to do is isolate him, keep him in his cave and let him die of natural causes with no fanfare, no public trial, no public execution, no bombings that kill him and his family... because that would just rally his faithful even more...
So I'm torn, I'd love to see his head on a stick but on the other hand, his head on a stick might mean many other people dead in attacks...
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#gmstrong
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I'd like to see him killed, too.... but I realize that doing so will mean absolutely nothing.
Which is the entire point I'm trying to make.... it would be pointless, beyond being a P.R. move.
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He could be 5 years dead already. No one knows for sure .... and we probably never will know for sure.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I thought I saw him playing golf with Elvis and Michael Jackson a few weeks ago.
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Oh please ....
Elvis has better taste than that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Mac .... what do you define as winning in Afghanistan?
YT...IMO, winning in Afghanistan is to deny the Taliban, control of Afghanistan.
When the Taliban were in control of Afghanistan, they allied with Bin Laden and gave him and his terrorist group, a home..a safe haven. Out of that relationship between the Taliban and Bin Laden came the planning and training for those who carried out the 9/11 attacks...we cannot allow that to happen again.
The Taliban were driven out of Afghanistan in 2001 and fled to Pakistan, which turned a blind eye toward the Taliban. The United States did not pursue the Taliban into Pakistan and as a result, they were able to regroup and reconstitute their fighting forces into an insurgency movement, attempting to establish control of areas within Afghanistan.
The United States would like to leave Afghanistan with a central government protected by an Afghan military, capable of defending itself and the country against enemies such as the Taliban.
General Petraeus laid out some of these objectives in his confirmation hearings a couple of weeks ago.
The way I see it, the choices are simple...let Afghanistan fall back into the hands of the Taliban that reconstituted while taking refuge in Pakistan...OR...doing all we can to help Afghanistan develop a military force capable of defending Afghanistan against the Taliban.
Winning in Afghanistan = no safe haven for the Taliban within Afghanistan
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If they retreat back into Pakistan do you advocate following them across the border even though the Pakistani doesn't want us to? Are you willing to invade a nation with nukes?
#gmstrong
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Denying the Taliban sounds good .... but how do you define it?
They are out of power in Afghanistan. They are hiding. They are being attacked by UN forces in Afghanistan and by Pakistani forces over the border.
They are actively being denied power. Have we then won?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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