Going off half cocked happens. Heck it made for entertaining discussion. After seeing what a little research did for you in this topic, I'm off to find out the meaning of a double rainbow!!
Quote: Going off half cocked happens. Heck it made for entertaining discussion. After seeing what a little research did for you in this topic, I'm off to find out the meaning of a double rainbow!!
Quote: I'm all for freedom of religion, but it is absurd to even consider building a mosque on that site. How anyone can think that is OK is beyond me.
It is not on that site.
Pamela Geller and her SIOA group is behind this.
I suggest that any of you that think that this mosque is so "evil" that you check out her site at:
There you can see the hatred that this woman and her group spews. For instance, her insistance that Milosevic was doing the world a favor by killing Muslims in Kosovo.
This woman, Pamela Geller, and her group SIOA (Stop Islamization of America) are nothing but a hate group. If you go to her facebook site (SIOA) you will find this picture posted with her followers laughing about how "true" it is and how America is (in her mind) in a Holy War against Islam.
Oh, how sad, she now has her group closed so that you cannot view that material. But, no problem, just look at the posts she and her followers make on her site.
Quote: Pamela Geller and her SIOA group is behind this.
There are quite a few other people against it for their own reasons... just because this woman and her hate group oppose it doesn't mean that everybody opposed to it holds that opinion out of hate.
Quote: Pamela Geller and her SIOA group is behind this.
There are quite a few other people against it for their own reasons... just because this woman and her hate group oppose it doesn't mean that everybody opposed to it holds that opinion out of hate.
The point was that this woman, and her hate group, manufactured the story. There is nothing to be against, it isn't at the site.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
I've known all along that it's not ON the site.. it's a couple blocks from the site. But it was damaged on 9/11 pretty bad by flying debris...
In the end, I don't really care. If they aren't allowed to build a mosque there, they will build it somewhere else.. if they are allowed to build a mosque there.. well that doesn't affect me a heck of a lot either... as the saying goes, "I can't see it from my house."
Quote: Pamela Geller and her SIOA group is behind this.
There are quite a few other people against it for their own reasons... just because this woman and her hate group oppose it doesn't mean that everybody opposed to it holds that opinion out of hate.
What you are not understanding is that Pamela Geller IS the leader of the anti-mosque group. She IS the one behind the opposition. She is the spokesperson and she is simply the person in charge of trying to get the building landmarked.
Whenever they talk about it on TV, she is the person that speaks for the opposition. Pamela Geller, the hater of Islam, the woman who is convinced that America is in a holy war against Islam, is the person behind this opposion. She doesn't hide the fact that she simply hates Islam, she openly flaunts it.
Quote: I assumed that's what he meant, but I just wanted clarification of whether or not the men on the plane are supposed to look like stereotypical Arabs or for some reason we have the ability to figure out someone's religion by looking at them
But to answer his question...I wouldn't feel all too great about the situation. Is it prejudiced? Of course. But no one said it was a rational fear.
Just my two cents
Just be make it a bit clearer.. two of them were accompanied by their women. The women had robes and head scarves. Pretty obvious they were muslim. Very middle eastern in complexion and appearance.
I TRIED not to be judgemental but the thought of terrorists DID cross my mind. I do admit to saying a quick "Dear BIG GUY, let me get to San Diego safely".
Quote: What you are not understanding is that Pamela Geller IS the leader of the anti-mosque group. She IS the one behind the opposition. She is the spokesperson and she is simply the person in charge of trying to get the building landmarked.
And what you are not understanding is that she may have her own agenda but if you think those in opposition are all doing it because of her, then you just classified a large chunk of NY City as Islamic haters...
Most New Yorkers Oppose Ground Zero Mosque New Poll Finds Strong Opposition To Proposal To Build Mosque Near Ground Zero
NEW YORK (CBS)
On May 25, 2010, Community Board 1 in lower Manhattan approved the construction of a mosque and cultural center near ground zero
According to a Quinnipiac University survey, 52 percent of New Yorkers said they are against the proposal, while 31 said they support the idea.
Of those surveyed, 44 percent say they have a generally favorable opinion of Islam, while 28 percent have an unfavorable one. Another 28 percent say they are undecided.
In a controversial vote last month, emotions ran running high as enraged 9/11 families vehemently opposed the idea, even as a local community board voted in favor of it.
"I don't want a mosque on the grave of my son and on the grave of everybody else who was murdered on that day," Rosemary Cain said.
Two blocks from the hallowed ground at 45 and 47 Park Place a Muslim organization called the Cordoba Group, led by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, wants to build the center. It would include a recreational facility, including a performing arts center and swimming pool and a library.
But the biggest outcry is over the proposal for a prayer center in the buildings.
"Muslims pray five times a day," Abdul Rauf said. "Prayer is important to all of us who are people of faith."
C. Lee Hanson's son, his daughter-in-law, and their daughter were on one of the planes that struck the towers on 9/11.
"I am not a bigot and most of the people in this room are not bigots. I oppose the mosque because it is in poor taste," Hanson said.
While most spoke out against the project, some said they support the proposal.
"I'm asking you to let this be a place of understanding where we can learn about each other," supporter Asim Rehman said.
"What better place to teach tolerance than the place where hate tried to kill tolerance?" supporter Jean Grillo added.
The May vote was considered largely symbolic and while there is expected to be a number of other challenges before it can be built the organization wants to break ground within the next two years.
Although there is growing opposition, the project organizers said they want to provide a venue to counter extremism.
Look I know it is easier to place blame and focus your own hate if you can pigeon hole your opposition if you can give it a name and a face and you have a very easy one to hate in this Geller woman.. but the simple fact is that there are many many people who do not share her view of Islam who still do not want this mosque.
And whenever they talk about it on TV they get her because she is most likely to say something stupid that they can then show over and over and over again.. asking somebody with a logical argument isn't going to give them the dynamic soundbite they are looking for.. so of course they go to her.
Quote: And what you are not understanding is that she may have her own agenda but if you think those in opposition are all doing it because of her, then you just classified a large chunk of NY City as Islamic haters...
Most New Yorkers Oppose Ground Zero Mosque
Problem is, New York is a city of many boroughs.
Just because people in SOHO or Queens are against it, doesn't mean people in Lower Manhattan are.
In fact, a poll of people in Manhattan shows that they overwhelmingly favor the mosque.
That's not a problem for me. Your point was that this racist bigot woman is leading the charge against the mosque and your implication that those opposed are being led by her...
I showed you that 50+% of New Yorkers are opposed.... so are 50% of the people in NY islamic bigots or... is this woman just leading one group with its own agenda?
As for what Manhattan thinks.. I showed you a poll by a reputable group on NYers.. if you have one specific to Manhattan, show it to me. Either way it doesn't affect the discussion though.. a lot of people opposed to this are NOT being led by this islamic bigot..
Quote: That's not a problem for me. Your point was that this racist bigot woman is leading the charge against the mosque and your implication that those opposed are being led by her...
I showed you that 50+% of New Yorkers are opposed.... so are 50% of the people in NY islamic bigots or... is this woman just leading one group with its own agenda?
As for what Manhattan thinks.. I showed you a poll by a reputable group on NYers.. if you have one specific to Manhattan, show it to me. Either way it doesn't affect the discussion though.. a lot of people opposed to this are NOT being led by this islamic bigot..
It shows that people in the greater New York area are listening to this bigot.
It isn't even a mosque itself, it is a community center (a community outreach to educate the populace on Islam) which includes a prayer space. The opposition is being seduced by this woman. Because of what this woman is saying/doing she is inciting this hatred. She has people convinced that this is somehow a "monument to Usama Bin Laden".
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Quote: That's not a problem for me. Your point was that this racist bigot woman is leading the charge against the mosque and your implication that those opposed are being led by her...
I agree with you, not Charlie, in this specific debate here ... but let's be real ...
... to oppose this is to be bigoted. You had the guts to admit it yourself -- you wouldn't care if this were a Christian church.
You can rationalize your bigotry all you wish, but this is bigotry and religious persecution, plain and simple.
I'm not demonizing you or anyone who feels this way ... to be bigoted is not to be evil -- we all are at some point ... but that's exactly what it is.
I'd be happier if it wasn't there, for entirely different reasons ... but despite my loathing of religion, I've never felt the need to infringe others' rights.
Quote: Poster: YTownBrownsFan Subject: Re: Kill the Ground Zero Mosque Ad
I respectfully disagree.
There could be no greater message that one that says that we can live in peace with one another, and respect each others views and religions, even following one of the most evil acts ever committed in the name of religion.
I think that there should be churches if they desire to locate there. Mosques as well. Synagogues as well. If the Buddhists want a temple or 2, let them have them as well.
Religious establishments of all faiths being good neighbors to one another would be the truest victory over the bastardized version of Islam that allowed such evil to be done ..... and would be the biggest step towards victory over that extremism.
Of all the posts I've read here, this one resonates the deepest in me.
In my (admittedly shallow) studies of the world's religions, I've noted a striking similarity in the basic precepts that each seem to espouse. I believe that this similarity IS NOT A COINCIDENCE... and that God lives in the universal truths which bind us all. Along with this fundamental belief comes its (opposite) corollary:
"The Devil's in the details."
Each faith puts forth the exact same principles for righteous living in their respective 'articles of faith.' Each faith then produces its denizens who pervert The Word, and use it to further their own (twisted) ends.
IMHO, the 911 assailants were motivated by the same evil that prompted Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols to kill hundreds of their own countrymen. Pure Evil knows no geo- theo- or socio-political boundaries, you know?
As a civilized society which promotes tolerance and acceptance, we've welcomed all to our shores... and that diversity has made us the most dynamic societal force that this planet has seen in the last 500 years. Our Founding Fathers laid the groundwork for the most innovative, open and far-reaching social experiment in modern times... and religious and cultural tolerance was at the core of those precepts.
I can imagine no better way to honor those prinicples than to open the area to faiths who wish to bring their faithful to that spot.
I would love to see such an expression of Universal Faith. It might be the only tool we have as a species that can counter the profound ugliness and evil that hangs above that address.
I want to imagine that some day, the ' 0 ' in "Ground Zero" could be a "Circle Of Faith" ...in the center of New York City. THAT would be a positive, living monument to the Good that people are... built upon the site of the worst that Man can be.
If an Islamic center is the first of such edifices to be established, so be it. I'm all for anyone who wishes to follow. Let the circle be formed... and be unbroken. I hope Southern Baptists and A.M.E. (African Methodist Episcopal) faiths are next to move in. We could trade dandelion greens, fried okra and chicken fried steak for falafel, tabbouli and fatayer at the annual "interfaith picnic."
We'd all eat goooood... and then the talk would begin. Such are the beginnings of understanding, where our species is concerned. Breaking bread always leads to breaking boundaries ( ...and bondage... ).
__________________________________
Bottom line: YTown had it right, I believe. An expression of the best in us is the only true defense we have against expressions of the worst of us. Any expression of the positive strenghtens us all... no matter what faith generates that expression.
A ring of faith-based centers around that hellhole would be welcomed by me with open arms. What's best about it is that it would happen, for the very first time in history.... on American soil... the only place which officially invited All to be Part of One.
I'm damned impressed, YTown. My hat's off to you, brother- from the heart.
Let this be a place of love... built upon the ashes of hate.
Look all I posted was the article from the BBC, and the video on youtube everyone is so up in arms about.
the fact is its a zoning issue
However, I personally don't believe ANY Religious building should be built near that site...
no churches no mosques Not budda building no nothing
Religious things should be left out of that area
it should have a Memorial built there and maybe a 9/11 history Museum honor those folks and thats it....
i am not against anyone who practices any faith, i just question...do they have to build it so close to that area? thats all i am saying
there thousands of other places they can build a mosque, church, whatever they want...im just saying I don't think anywhere near that area is the proper place to build any religious building...just my 2 cents
however it is a zoning issue that will have to be dealt with
....people can worship what they choose....i just don't think anywhere near that site is appropriate for any religious building...
i just think this is one thing they should leave religion out of it and that goes for all religions and i say that being a Christian myself...no church, no mosque, no nothing...just a memorial....
Quote: Look all I posted was the article from the BBC, and the video on youtube everyone is so up in arms about.
the fact is its a zoning issue
However, I personally don't believe ANY Religious building should be built near that site...
no churches no mosques Not Buddha building no nothing
Religious things should be left out of that area
it should have a Memorial built there and maybe a 9/11 history Museum honor those folks and thats it....
i am not against anyone who practices any faith, i just question...do they have to build it so close to that area? thats all i am saying
there thousands of other places they can build a mosque, church, whatever they want...im just saying I don't think anywhere near that area is the proper place to build any religious building...just my 2 cents
however it is a zoning issue that will have to be dealt with
....people can worship what they choose....i just don't think anywhere near that site is appropriate for any religious building...
i just think this is one thing they should leave religion out of it and that goes for all religions and i say that being a Christian myself...no church, no mosque, no nothing...just a memorial....
I just posted the article, nothing more.......
I am not blaming you (the messenger).
I am just pointing out that the article is only giving half the truth.
I am also not naive enough to believe we as a people can find common ground with religion as the bridge we can cross to get to common ground, because every religion believes that their faith is the one and only.
Now if we were to leave religion out of the equation.....then and only then will we have a chance as a people to find common ground. That begans with tolerance of others.
Instead of religion. We should be talking about civil liberties and spreading the wealth for all, because as long as the privileged continue to rape and sell our assets like whores and pimps to the rest of the world. Then the 'American Dream' will forever be just that (a dream) for the majority.
Example......our neighbors from south of the boarder crossing our boarders are being persecuted for wanting a better life for themselves and their families. Should they do it legally......you bet they should.
Looking at this objectively I know that they are not the under lieing problem.
That belongs to our greedy American neighbors who hire them to do their neighbors jobs @ slave pay. I am not talking about picking tomatos either. They are taking most of the construction jobs (the few that there are) and the americans who have depended on those jobs for their (our) whole lives Can not compete with slave labor prices. Because we have to play by the rules that our Government has placed on us.
My point is that diversity in religion is not the underling problem in this country.
I would like to share with you an article I wrote in 2008 on the subject;
A million year of evolution and man kind has not yet learned that our greatest enemy is within each of us.
History is the key to those of us who seek the truth and not the myths and rhetoric governments would have you believe.
Our forefathers planted the seeds of what they believed would be the foundation of a prosperous new society.
Planting these seeds coast many their lives, yet their will along with others prevailed over what they considered to be the greedy rule of their British Landlords.
They were finally free from the life and thoughts that bound their fathers, or so it would seem.
History tells us, that we come into this world with all the faults of our fathers generation and our forefathers were no exception.
Many of our forefathers owned slaves. Thus condoning an unbalanced society from the time of it's conception.
In a since we had become our fathers.
That in turn bought about the Civil War. After many fathers and brothers lost their lives. America thought we had cleansed ourselves of our fathers sin.
Fast forward to the 1960's Civil Rights movement. Once again we felt the need to exercise our forefathers sins from our society once again.
The beginning of any journey is all ways the most important step. Safe falls were put into place so that the life that our forefathers envisioned would not decay.
Why do we have an Immigration issue today? Supply and demand!
My fellow Americans we still have slave masters in this country and the slaves are not just black......they come from every color under the rainbow.
A horse of a different color is still a horse..... Pardon my Abraham Lincoln impersonation.
As long as there are safe falls in our laws that allows business as usual to continue, then they will!
Having served this country in the military. I believe that if one drop of blood is spill over any soil. That soil is worth fighting for. I am optimistic about the final out come. I may not live long enough to see it with my own eye's, but in the beginning the will of the people prevailed over the greed of others.
This came with a price and will again come at a price.
History tells us that every great society that came and passed, that their demise came from within and that starts with human nature. Power begets greed and greed begets power.
One last important cliche.....United we stand Divided we fall......this was true then as it will be in the future.
Our founding fathers could not see their own faults, but until there is a level playing field for all american citizens, then I do not believe their will be true freedom for all.
We can start with a fair tax system a crossed the board.
There is something inherently wrong with the system who permits someone who made 102,000 dollars to pay 0 tax, not to mention 0 pay roll tax, if they used illegal labor and a person with a small business who struggled to make 10,000 legally to still owe at the end of the year, simple because they have no shelters (legal loop holes). Crooks! Maybe. It's the unfair laws to blame.
That was the long and the sort......is that there will forever be differences in religion and it is not the proper battle ground to find common ground as a nation.
Allow your neighbors to worship what ever God they like peacefully, because different faiths are not the problem in this country. Unless there is evidence contrary to peacefull worship.
Further proff that Pamela Geller simply hates Muslims.
She sees a conspiracy everywhere she turns!
She is now claiming that the mosque two blocks away isn't the first mosque to be built on a 9/11 site. She is now claiming that since a row of trees at the Flight 93 memorial is in the shape of a partial circle, it is a mosque as well!
From her site:
What is she going to claim next? Oh no, I think I know what now!!
If there is one thing that folks will hopefully take away from this thread, it is that this sort of wacko exists everywhere, on every side of every debate. No belief system, no political party, no religion has yet cornered the market on being crazy. They are all extremists, just of a different flavor.
That wacko Black Panther guy? Extremist Wacko.
This Pamela Geller? Extremist Wacko.
None are representative of the majority of whichever "side" they associate themselves with... but as the saying goes, the squaky wheel gets the oil. The wackos are always the most noticeable.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Just Google this nit nort! He's the guy driving this thing.
I heard from a partisan that there is a lot more to this then we have been led to believe. Since it came from a partisan I won;t post what he said until I can verify it. It might be enough for me to change my mind to be against it. more like vehemently against it.
Quote: I heard from a partisan that there is a lot more to this then we have been led to believe. Since it came from a partisan I won;t post what he said until I can verify it. It might be enough for me to change my mind to be against it. more like vehemently against it.
Would that partisan happen to be Pamela Geller? If it wasn't Pamela Geller, it likely is something that Pamela Geller already reported on. Is it that Muslims are involved in a grand conspiracy to take over the world? As Pamela Geller pointed out, Kosovo is a jihadist nation hellbent on destroying Christian Europe.
No, wait, I bet it is because he's a member of the Perdana Peace Organization.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf Chairman Cordoba Initiative USA
Feisal Abdul Rauf has been Imam of Masjid al-Farah in New York City since 1983. Through his sermons and writings, Imam Abdul Rauf seeks to provide spiritual seekers with answers to their eternal questions that often hinder them from developing a personal relationship with the Divine.
He is the founder of the ASMA Society, dedicated to furthering Islamic Art and Culture. He invites non-Muslims to experience the spiritual impulse of Islam, and Muslims to develop on the spiritual path.
He teaches Islam and Sufism at the Center for Religious Inquiry at St. Bartholomew's Church in New York City, and at the New York Seminary. He has been particularly effective with non-Muslims who seek to discover and assimilate the spiritual dimension of the Qur'an and Islam's ritual teachings, and who seek to understand the Islamic experience from within.
He is the author of Islam: A Search for Meaning, in which he defines Islam as the universal religion that goes beyond the cultural settings of the Prophet Muhammad, and Islam: A Sacred Law, What Every Muslim should know about the Shari`ah.
Born in Kuwait of Egyptian ancestry, Imam Abdul-Rauf was educated in England, Egypt, Malaysia and the United States, and is a graduate of Columbia University in New York. He speaks Arabic, English and Malay/Indonesian.
Imam Abdul-Rauf is a member of the Board of Trustees of the Islamic Center of New York, and of the Interfaith Center of New York.
He lectures regularly at Synagogues, Churches and Mosques, and on radio and television programs in the United States and abroad.
No it wouldn't. I don't consider her a partisan. I consider her a loon. We have beaten the stories about her to death. No one has had anything good to say about her.
I think this was already talked about in here...but i can't find the thread..if i just missed it im so sorry refs! i looked for it!
Have you guys heard about the hoopla in NYC? what are your thughts on this subject...i can see the point of view from both the sides...
PS- the mosque is NOT AT ground zero..it's 2 blocks away...oh and it's not a mosque it's a rec center...media keeps saying it's both or only mosque...
President defends mosque remarks THE NATIONAugust 15, 2010|Peter Nicholas and Nicole Santa Cruz PANAMA CITY BEACH, FLA., AND NEW YORK — Standing up for the right to put a mosque near the site of the Sept. 11 attacks in New York, President Obama on Saturday warned that the country risks losing its distinct identity if it ignores basic American values such as religious freedom.
Obama spoke about the proposed mosque for the second time in two days, breaking a long silence on the controversy.
He told reporters after an event in Florida that his purpose in speaking out was to "simply let people know what I thought." He added that "it's very important, as difficult as some of these issues are, that we stay focused on who we are as a people and what our values are about."
Explaining why Obama kept silent until this point, White House aides said he wanted to wait for the right occasion and did not wish to influence New York City officials evaluating the project.
On Aug. 3, a New York commission cleared the way for an Islamic community center to be built two blocks north of where the World Trade Center once stood. Obama made his first comments on the matter Friday night at a Ramadan celebration hosted by the White House.
In his remarks Friday, Obama referred to the trauma of the Sept. 11 attacks as unimaginable. "So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders," he said. "Ground zero is, indeed, hallowed ground." But he added that America's "commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable."
Obama was in the Florida Panhandle on Saturday for a one-day trip with his wife, daughter Sasha and dog Bo, who roamed the aisles of Air Force One during the two-hour flight from Andrews Air Force Base. Daughter Malia is away at summer camp.
In remarks to the public, Obama noted progress in efforts to clean up the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico and encouraged tourists to vacation in the region as his family was doing. Later, during a round of miniature golf, Sasha carded a hole-in-one on the first hole. Her father gave her a high-five. "That's how you do it, right there!" he said.
But as much as the president tried to keep the focus on the gulf, he got questions on the mosque.
He emphasized that he was standing up for a basic principle, not endorsing the idea of putting a mosque at that specific location. But the distinction seems an academic one. At no point has Obama said it's a bad idea to put a mosque at that site even if the owners have the right to do so.
"I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there," he said. "I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That's what our country is about."
New Yorkers interviewed Saturday were divided about the mosque and the president's position.
Valerie Kowal, 63, a city worker from the Bronx, said that she doesn't share Obama's views. "Personally, I don't think we need it here," she said of the mosque A lifelong New Yorker, she works a couple of blocks from the World Trade Center site.
"We had to wear masks because all you smelled was fluid and death," she recalled.
The memory of that day is still fresh in her mind, which is why she opposes the center.
"I'm not a bitter person," she said. "But it's there. Personally, I don't think we need it here."
Michael Lozano, a financial planner who lives in Brooklyn, said he sees no problem with the mosque location.
"What's the difference between a mosque here and a mosque midtown?" Lozano, 42, asked. "I'm not against it."
House Republican Leader John A. Boehner of Ohio took issue with Obama's remarks. "The fact that someone has the right to do something doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do," Boehner said in a statement. "That is the essence of tolerance, peace and understanding. This is not an issue of law, whether religious freedom or local zoning. This is a basic issue of respect for a tragic moment in our history."
The Muslim Public Affairs Council put out a statement applauding Obama and New York Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, who also has defended the proposed mosque.
"The president's made a historic speech in favor of religious freedom. He and Mayor Bloomberg have set the standard for other political leaders to preserve America's open society," said council President Salam Al-Marayati. "The president landed a major blow against Al Qaeda's false narrative that America is at war with Islam."
The debate over the so-called “Ground Zero mosque” hit the streets of New York Sunday.
The weather fit the mood – gray skies and rain – and there were a few scuffles and shouted exchanges. But police officers and barricades kept several hundred demonstrators on each side separated.
The proposed site is several blocks away from the World Trade Center, attacked in 2001 by Islamic terrorists, in a neighborhood that includes bars, strip clubs, and an off-track betting facility. Still, it is “hallowed ground” to many who oppose the Islamic Center – including politicians using it to batter President Obama.
Ground zero and beyond: four mosque battles brew across US
This has led to increasing talk of moving the site of the proposed center, which is not a “mosque” as most people might envision it with a dome, minarets, and amplified calls to prayer but more like a YMCA or Jewish Community Center – architecturally plain with an auditorium, swimming pool, and meeting rooms as well as a prayer space (but no loud speakers).
Roman Catholic Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan of New York, has offered to mediate the issue. A model, he suggests, is when Pope John Paul II ordered nuns to move from a convent at the Auschwitz Nazi death camp after protests from Jewish leaders.
“He’s the one who said, ‘Let’s keep the idea, and maybe move the address,’ ” Archbishop Dolan told the New York Times. “It worked there; might work here.”
On ABC’s “This Week” Sunday, Daisy Khan, wife of the proposed Islamic Center’s leader Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf, did not rule out the possibility of selecting a less controversial site away from 9/11’s ground zero.
“We're meeting several stakeholders right now, because we understand the pain and the anguish that has been displayed throughout the country,” said Ms. Khan. “And we indeed want to build bridges. We don't want to create conflict. This is not where we were coming from. So, this is an opportunity for us to really turn this around and make this into something very, very positive. So we will meet and we will do what is right for everyone.”
At the same time, Khan pointed out, “We have the Muslim community around the nation that we have to be concerned about, and we have to worry about the extremists as well, because they are seizing this moment. And so we have to be very careful and deliberate in when we make any major decision like this.â€
New York Governor David Paterson has offered to help find an alternative site.
To many observers, the “Ground Zero mosque” issue has become an excuse for more widespread opposition to Islam – including the persistent and growing belief among Americans that President Obama is a Muslim.
A Time magazine survey this past week “revealed that many Americans harbor lingering animosity toward Muslims.”
“Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court,” reports Time. “Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President — a slightly higher percentage than the 24 percent who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim.” (That’s higher than the recent Pew Research Center survey showing that 18 percent think Obama is a Muslim.) Just 55 percent said they think most Muslims are “loyal Americans.”
Local battles over mosques are raging in several places around the country, none of which has any direct connection to the events (or victims) of 9/11.
"The people who say the mosque is too close to Ground Zero, those are the same people that protest mosques in Brooklyn and Staten Island and Tennessee and Wisconsin and California,â€
Ground zero and beyond: four mosque battles brew across US
i was in NYC over the weekend...there are ppl protesting this thing like crazy...i'm just glad no one has been hurt yet...ppl were pretty damn aggressive.
Quote: Standing up for the right to put a mosque near the site of the Sept. 11 attacks in New York, President Obama on Saturday warned that the country risks losing its distinct identity if it ignores basic American values such as religious freedom.
President Obama said about the same thing as his rationale for having the WH not participate in the national day of prayer and Clinton and Bush had done.. He signed the paper to acknowledge it but wouldn't participate because it sent the wrong message.. 4 months later he hosted a Ramadan meal at the WH to honor Muslims....
What Obama has to say about religious freedom means nothing to me.... the man is a first rate hypocrit.
As far as the mosque.. I have questions of both sides..
My main question for those who oppose it is.. how far away is good enough? 4 blocks? 8 blocks? Half a mile?
My main question for those who support it is.. why are those who want to build it turning down some very reasonable requests to build it elsewhere? They have been offered land and low rates (and one parcel for free IIRC) yet they are intent on building on this site even though it is causing this outrage.... why?
Seems like it has become about proving a point for both sides...
pretty sure he has celebrated other religious festivals as well....Diwali(hinduism) comes to mind. National day of prayer? i'm not sure why he didn't observe that...can't even think of a reason..esp if he is christian
why didn't this guy win the GOP vote for president again? i can't recall anything he said that i didn't agree with...well almost anything..i might have actually voted for him over obama...well maybe..but he certainly would have had my attention more...and i bet sara palin never gets to run as VP if ron paul was running.
Ron Paul is a "old school" libertarian, and not really a republican. At the last republican convention he was not invited, even though other republican candidates who fared worse than he did were given speaking roles.
He is not aligned with any of the social conservatives. The Neocons do not like him. Big Business does not know what to do with him. His free market/no government policies are both intriguing and scary.
That pretty much eliminate his ability to become a candidate for the republican party.
I like listening to him, but I don't agree with everything that he has to say, but he will make you ponder your position, and I can respect that.
I've been pretty apolitical for most of my life- primarily because I could see little difference in the competency level of either major party. It's basically worked OK for me, because my quality of life hasn't been determined by decisions in Washington DC... it's been determined by the choices I have made for myself- what to buy, what to leave on the shelf, where to live, and what to choose for a profession. Despite what pundits and politicos have tried to use to influence us, I bear full responsibility for the life I've lived. Politics has played only a minor role in where I find myself. Until recently, I've always believed that most Americans probably see their lives in much the same light. In the last 20 years or so, that seems to have changed. More and more people seem to be stepping up to blame someone else for their lot in life... and that mindset is being mined by a particularly pernicious sort of public figure... for his own benefit.
What I'm seeing now is something that I find quite sinister... the co-opting of a purely social issue for political gain... and waaay too many Americans are falling for it- hook, line and sinker.
For me, issues of the proposed Mosque/cultural/neighborhood center are pretty cut & dried: property that has lain derelict for almost a decade has been purchased by a private source, to be repurposed for multiple uses. It's no different than any number of other properties currently operating in Manhattan. From the descriptions I've read, it's being directly modelled after the 92nd St. Y... a multi-use community center that not only is home to many social and religious groups as a meeting place, but is also home to community athletic events and some of the best chamber music concerts performed in the city. (It's one of my personal goals in life to perform there some day- great acoustics, and a rich history of great artistry). By the way, that establishment is primarily Jewish-run.
The bottom line for me: the only.... ONLY reason this real-estate project is a hot-button issue is the religious identity attached to it. Pure and simple. I propose that the current reaction wouldn't exist at all, if the purchasers planned to build a center with a Catholic, Sikh, Mormon, Black Southern Baptist or Greek Orthodox identity. Well... maybe there'd be a group of 20-50 picketers that the rest of America would brand as "crazies," but they don't really count, now do they? I mean... they're zealots, right? They're not really like most of us, are they?
Run with me for a minute, if you will. If those 20-50 picketers would be branded as "crazies" by the rest of us supposedly "sane Americans," what does that make the thousands upon thousands who are up in arms about this? That's my point... bigotry, whether visited upon Greeks, Baptists, Catholics, Mormons... or even Muslims- is crazy, in a country which based as one of its founding tenets openness and religious tolerance.
I was raised to believe that the measure of a man (and by extension, a country) is how tall he stands up for principles... especially when it's challenging to do so. It would seem that some of my fellow Americans were raised by a different breed of American than was I. I like My Parents' breed of American better, thank you very much. It seems more in line with what our Founding Fathers wanted for us.
What saddens me the most is how this "issue" has been picked up by the curent news cycle, and politicized beyond any sense of proportion. The initial purchase was made over 2 years ago. Why all the current outrage? Simple- because we're in an election cycle- and House and Senate seats are at stake. No matter which side you examine, the desire to use this as a strategic campaign point represents the most cynical of political motivations... as exemplifies all that is wrong with our current political construct. On-air mouthpieces can spout all they want-- that's their job-- but they only have the power to propel public sentiment and policy IF WE LET THEM.
In so many ways-- separation of church and state, hands-off government regarding private enterprise, religious tolerance... just to name a few-- this issue should be totally left alone by the politicos who seek to make decisions for our citizenry. At the very least, they should refrain from issuing 'talking points' regarding this social issue.
I won't allow myself to get sucked into an emotional reaction to a real estate transaction in NYC. I won't stand up in defense of limiting another American's right to use his private property as he sees fit. And I won't allow myself to be used to further the goals of some manipulative stranger, as (s)he co-opts this story for personal gain- be it political, financial or philosophical.
Why?
Because I make up my own mind... and I'm responsible for the choices I make. I have to live with myself, in the end.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif){kind=logo}
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
at your moon link
![[Linked Image from fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net]](https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/276870_6711658857_1403067853_q.jpg)
